Is the d20 that much better and new content just as good? Speaking of new content, you all must be converting everything since no new Greyhawk material is being released. Is it worth me blowing a couple hundred bucks on 3rd Ed. resources and months of my time devoted to reading them and re-learning the game to play catch up with the 3rd Ed.?
Yes, I'm asking in a serious manner.
I like alot of ideas you folks share here, but some things would be nice to swipe with the ole copy/paste instead of converting everything )
Additionaly, I have literally years worth of work I could share with people that are interested in primarily 2nd Ed. content, but I really can't see much of it being feasibly converted by 3rd Ed. users without some major reworking.
Fight the progress!
Abysslin
Originally posted by abysslin
Is the d20 that much better and new content just as good?
Abysslin [/b]
I think that 3e is vastly better than 2e, skills and feats mean that PCs are able to be personalised to a degree unheard of in 2e and the whole combat section of D&D has taken a quantum leap forward becoming dynamic, requiring thought and teamwork.
The RP aspect hasn't changed at all but the rules mechanics are slicker and make much more sense to me.
After a few sessions the rules become intuitive once you have worked out when attacks of opportunities occur and what counts as move or standard actions. As always DMing is mainly common sense wrt rule calls unless you are/have in your group a rules lawyer.
Originally posted by abysslin
Seriously, Is anyone else using an exclusive 1st + 2nd Ed. campaign or has everyone basically fallen inline with the 3rd Ed. and now 3.5 Ed. conversions?
Yeah, there's a whole raft of the buggers over on Dragonsfoot.com
Whatever you do, though, don't tell them I sent you. I'm... err... not well liked there :D
Originally posted by abysslin
Is the d20 that much better and new content just as good?
The d20 system is so far superior to 1st/2nd ed. that it's like comparing the combustion engine to warp drive. But then... it's also a matter of preference. I was one of many who were unsatisfied with 2nd ed. and ended up trying a new house rule EVERY game in order to 'fix' what was missing from the rules. d20 is about as close as I've found to a 'perfect' system. It's far from perfect, mind you, but it's better than 90% of the crud out there, and far better than 2nd ed.
As for new content... meh, most of it's trash to be honest. But then, so were most of the 2nd ed. handbooks. The difference now is that you've got a gazillion products to choose from and every so often one shines above the morass and calls to you and you know it's worth forking out money for. A couple of examples would be the Book of Righteous Might (at least, I think that's the title) from Green Ronin, Magical Medieval Societies: Western Europe from Expeditious Retreat Press, and my other favourite, the Tome of Horrors.
Originally posted by abysslin
Speaking of new content, you all must be converting everything since no new Greyhawk material is being released.
Technically there is new Greyhawk material in the Living Greyhawk Journal which is supposed to come out every second month.
Is it worth me blowing a couple hundred bucks on 3rd Ed. resources and months of my time devoted to reading them and re-learning the game to play catch up with the 3rd Ed.?
It's really a matter of preference. Do you constantly rework the 2nd ed. rules to suit your needs or are you mostly happy with how things work out? Do you find levelling to be a hohum, boring as shite affair because you get the same crud, level after level, with no variety? Do you feel the mechanics of the system constantly let you down and that there is no room for strategy or heroic acts because you have no idea how to adjudicate a situation or are you constantly finding you have to make up some random rule on the spot to cater to some outlandish situation which the rules simply can't cope with? Do you find THAC0 to be an antiquated, cumbersome, illogical technique for determining combat results?
If the answer is yes to all the above, then it's about time you bought into the franchise and joined all of us over in the greener pastures of d20-land.
Having said that, 3.5 ed is a bit stinky. I personally run a 3.25 ed game because although there were changes needed to 3.0, many of the changes in 3.5 were inadquate, inappropriate or just plain stupid.
Originally posted by abysslin
I like alot of ideas you folks share here, but some things would be nice to swipe with the ole copy/paste instead of converting everything )
Additionaly, I have literally years worth of work I could share with people that are interested in primarily 2nd Ed. content, but I really can't see much of it being feasibly converted by 3rd Ed. users without some major reworking.
I find converting things to be relatively easy. For the most part, it's just a matter of assigning a condition to things because there were all sorts of arbitrary rulings in other editions. For instance, how one handled diseases in 2nd ed.; you had a different rule to follow for every single disease that was written in the description of the disease wherever it was presented in an adventure. In 3rd ed., there is a core mechanic to handle diseases and a variety of core effects and so wherever a disease is written up, you always know the mechanic behind it's function automatically. So it's a simple matter of rewriting the description to function under the rules of the core mechanic, which is very easy to do.
Originally posted by abysslin
Fight the progress!
Eh, if you really feel that way, go to Dragonsfoot and talk with all the other antiquated old farts :P
As for advice, in the long run, you will be better off learning the D20 system. But you might want to consider using the D20 Modern rules as the basis for your game, and converting the old material to that instead of using 3.5 and it's square horses.
Many of the basic rule changes makes 3rd edition easy to learn and use. But I find that the class settings and some of the feats are unnecessary or overpowering.
Why I am sure that many people who have started out in 3rd edition have tweaked what they needed too. I am quite happy with what I have already and don't think a change is merited.
P.S. If your looking for some 2nd edition based articles I currently have three posted at canonfire.com. The Dwarves, Elves, and Gnomes of Oerth. You can also find a truckload of other edition specific articles as well as rules light ones. All of my articles follow the rules light with a 2nd edition base.
They don't like anyone with a diiference of opinion. The moderator outright said that he was allowing a poster to be flamed because he posted slightly askew of topic. In this case some suggested the letter writing campaign, the same that here and on many other boards..... The discussion quickly degenerated into a 1/2e vs. 3e debate, and a subsequent flamefest.
Yup, if you like 3e don't go to dragonsfoot. Very closed minded group.
Originally posted by Delglath
Whatever you do, though, don't tell them I sent you. I'm... err... not well liked there
LOL! And hey, while you're over there, tell them Aeolius turned Celene into a Dyson Sphere :D
ROFL! :D
Originally posted by Gnarley_Woodsman
ROFL! :D
Well, where else was I going to put the gargantuan spelljamming oysters? :D
BTW Aeolius your site and campaign premise are really good.
Question is, do you actually use Gargantuan Spelljamming oysters, and so do the have miniatue Giant Space Hamsters as part of the crew? :D
Originally posted by Gnarley_Woodsman
...do you actually use Gargantuan Spelljamming oysters, and so do the have miniatue Giant Space Hamsters as part of the crew? :D
I do in fact have a Shellship (borrowing a bit from Farscape), which is in essence a giant Spelljamming oyster. The ship is a living being that requires special food and lighting. Its "captain", referred to as the Pearl, needs to qualify for a special PrC, a variant Marinelord known as the Mollusklord. While the PCs have seen the Shellship, no one qualifies for the Mollusklord PrC and the issue of Spelljamming has not been raised. I'll keep that information on the back burner, for a later date.
Anyway, its completely original in the fact that your entire prmise is oceanically based.
For me at least, the original AD&D and the original World of Greyhawk are inseparable; I doubt I'd use one without the other.
As someone who's lately posted on Dragonsfoot but isn't a regular there, I don't find it more or less insular than average.
Originally posted by Faraer
As someone who's lately posted on Dragonsfoot but isn't a regular there, I don't find it more or less insular than average.
Mention one of the 'Words of Berserker Rage Inducement', like 3rd edition, or Lorraine Williams, or Monte Cook, or From the Ashes, then see how insular the place is...
Yeah, there's a whole raft of the buggers over on Dragonsfoot.com
Yeah, it's a tough crowd. They practically burned me at the stake when I posted my letter-drive camapign.
See my first post on this thread...
I was describing what they did to you.
Guess I missed it. Glad to know there were a few witnesses, though.
Originally posted by Samwise
But you might want to consider using the D20 Modern rules as the basis for your game, and converting the old material to that instead of using 3.5 and it's square horses.
D20 itself is a nice system, and I love d20 modern, but to me, 1e/2e/Hackmaster captures the D&D "feel" I want much better.
And btw, square horses rock! I'm tempted to go on a collectible minis buying spree just to find that rare square horse figure. I bet he'll fetch a fortune on EBay :D
As for Dragonsfoot, well...
Their website rocks, lots of great downloadable goodies for a 1e/2e DM. Their hackmaster forum is nice, the 1e and 2e forums are ok. I've never checked out the 3e or misc forums there. But their Greyhawk forum....
I'd elaborate, but my opinion on it violates every rule of netiquette, every part of this forum's Code of Conduct, and a handful of Geneva Conventions as well.
Square horses should be a sign that facing is essential to a miniatures game, and that you should put it back in the rules rather than make your horses square to avoid it.
Just say not to square horses!
Originally posted by Gnarley_Woodsman
Hey that rings a bell. It can be likened to...darn I forgot the nam...The really huge Spelljamming vessle....The one that looks like a stingray...
Anyway, its completely original in the fact that your entire prmise is oceanically based.
The huge stingray spelljamming vessel is...
SpellJammer.
It made me hate D&D for a very, very long time and 'hate' is not a word I use lightly to describe my feelings.
3.0 and to some degree 3.5 made me come back and try it.
D20, its a slightly better system as far as level based rpg's go, though Im still frustrated at how restrictive it is sometimes.
I truly prefer the 3rd Edition version of multi-classing. It makes ALOT more sense to me than the older system. Demi-Humans usually need to be revised...and no one should be allowed to play a Drow in D&D.
While some people would argue that this dilutes the game...is that any different than people ignoring rules when it suits them for their games?
Originally posted by Thresher
3.0 and to some degree 3.5 made me come back and try it.
D20, its a slightly better system as far as level based rpg's go, though Im still frustrated at how restrictive it is sometimes.
To a certain extent, classless d20 solves a lot of the restrictions although levels have to remain to make it viable. Some people feel that this is going too far and that in doing so, it's no longer D&D... eh, whatever. I like the idea of a point-based, level-based system and I think that d20 lends itself, with a few easy adjustments, to just such a system.
Originally posted by chatdemon
As for Dragonsfoot, well...my opinion on it violates every rule of netiquette, every part of this forum's Code of Conduct, and a handful of Geneva Conventions as well.
I just registered over there. My first (and last) post at Dragonsfoot was for the explicit purpose of insulting one of their moderators. It's over in their General Discussion forum, if you're interested.
Basically, I took issue with a "moderator" using the term "3etard", which, as cute as those infantile idiots may think the term is, is still a direct insult against the disabled.
Originally posted by Aeolius
Basically, I took issue with a "moderator" using the term "3etard", which, as cute as those infantile idiots may think the term is, is still a direct insult against the disabled. [/b]
Originally posted by StevieS
Politically correct BS. I thought you Yanks were bang up for freedom of speech ...... or is Yank offensive too? Jesus.
I have no issue with the right to freedom of speech, I simply think ill of those who insult the disabled. They are free to say as they wish, of course, I simply think of them as lesser people for their opinions. And, after all, I am entitled to my opinion.
Politically correct BS. I thought you Yanks were bang up for freedom of speech ...... or is Yank offensive too? Jesus.
Hey now! Don't judge us all by the prudes and the crybabies. That would be, well, retarded.
Anyway, I've checked out dragonsfoot.org and I don't think it will be a place I soon call home. I like it here much better, although they have alot of free downloadables, but that'll take a 1 time 10 minute visit heh... (assuming they actually have anything I will like)
Scott
Originally posted by ScottyG
Let me, the reviled Dragonsfoot Greyhawk forum moderator, be one of the first to welcome you to Dragonsfoot.
Scott
Just as long as we make no mention of Canonfire or presume to question the wisdom of the Gygax fanboy regulars there, right?
Originally posted by Samwise
But you might want to consider using the D20 Modern rules as the basis for your game, and converting the old material to that instead of using 3.5 and it's square horses.
Man, would you give up about the square horses already?
Originally posted by airwalkrr
Man, would you give up about the square horses already?
Yeah, it's time you moved on to the square purple worms.
Scott
Originally posted by airwalkrr
Man, would you give up about the square horses already?
As soon as the Core Rules give up on them, I will be happy to follow suit.
They seem to concern you rather excessively though. Why is that?
Anyway, it's good to see that some people can't keep up with the nice new world of 3E!
Anyway, old 1e and 2e material is great as a source, but honestly, none of it really adds much to the game mechanics. If you really like one of the old (and rare) GH kits, then I'd recommend just converting it to a prestige class. There are so few of them that it's not that much of an effort. Most of the old GH monsters have been adapted for 3rd edition already too (e.g. Sword Wraith, Skulk, Animus) so there's really no reason not to use it unless you just refuse to buy new books. I for one am glad that campaign-stopping "save-or-die" spells are almost completely gone.
Of course, I accept that others will buy any garbage just because of a name on it. Or that they are not interested in high quality games because they are unable to play them with any degree of ability. Heaven forbid D&D actually be a game that you need intelligence to play. It was at one point in time. Back when . . . what was that guy's name? Gygax? Something like that. Anyway, back when he wrote the combat rules for D&D, he expected that people were a bit on the intelligent and creative side if they were playing the game. I guess that is to much to expect these days, and the system is suffering because of it.
Originally posted by Samwise
Heaven forbid D&D actually be a game that you need intelligence to play. It was at one point in time. Back when . . . what was that guy's name? Gygax? Something like that. Anyway, back when he wrote the combat rules for D&D, he expected that people were a bit on the intelligent and creative side if they were playing the game. I guess that is to much to expect these days, and the system is suffering because of it.
The great thing about the "old school" combat rules is that while they were designed for miniatures combat, and could be used for such with some house rules, or an accessory such as Chainmail, Battlesystem or Player's Option: Combat & Tactics, they were simple and abstract enough at their core to be perfectly useful with no minis at all.
Not using minis in 3.x edition seriously cripples the combat rules, making a lot of the feats, the attack of opportunity rules and other such nuances difficult, if not impossible to adjucate.
I really don't mind the added complexity, but the core system should be simple enough for someone like me, who doesn't like using minis in every game (I only break them out for the "big" fights with important monsters or NPCs) to use without ruining aspects of the game.
Still, I've found I can run most combats without a battle mat. It's a little harder, but all those years of making snap decisions as a DM, not to mention exercising my imagination, had made it possible to run it in my head. The main thing it requires is players willing to trust your judgement as a DM not to hose them constantly on things like AoOs. Not only that, but I find the good players actually role-play more when I do that, instead of trying to beat me at tactical maneuvering. (Which very few can do.)
Originally posted by Samwise
instead of trying to beat me at tactical maneuvering. (Which very few can do.) [/b]
Dude, you have got issues that need resolving, this constant need to prove yourself to strangers on the net is very disturbing.
If an opponent who is directly engaged with you disengages for any reason except falling unconscious or being knocked down, you get an AoO. Works the same for PCs and NPCs and monsters. So, if you decide to switch opponents, pop a healing spell on a comrade or otherwise disengage from combat with the guy you're fighting, he's going to get an AoO on you. Switching weapons or attack forms does not necessarily equal disengaging, unless your new attack or weapon requires you to withdraw from melee range, likewise with spells.
Besides making combat run a bit smoother by eliminating the complex rules for AoO in 3e, it also promotes tactics and planning a little bit since spur of the moment changes can have disastrous results.
Originally posted by StevieS
Dude, you have got issues that need resolving, this constant need to prove yourself to strangers on the net is very disturbing.
I don't think he's the one with issues, he was specifically talking about players in a game, not random people on a message board. Honestly, I feel the same way about most people I play with, I've got years if not decades of experience with the game on them and can outplay them in combat 9 times out of 10.
Originally posted by StevieS
Dude, you have got issues that need resolving, this constant need to prove yourself to strangers on the net is very disturbing.
Only if you assume I give a fig about your opinion of me.
As I don't, we see it is a simple statement of fact presented as background for how I developed my views.
Is there a reason you feel so threatened by my declarations of competence?
Originally posted by Samwise
Is there a reason you feel so threatened by my declarations of competence?
Seeing an egomaniac at work and pointing it out to them doesn't indicate they are feeling threatened.
Your constant need to praise yourself and put yourself above others and put others down does, however, indicate just how fragile an ego you truly have. There was absolutely no need to do so in the above post. It was a redundant fact added in only to remind people how good you think you are.
And as for caring, I'd wager nobody cares whether or not you think you could beat them at strategy in a mini game, or anything else for that matter.
Originally posted by Delglath
And as for caring, I'd wager nobody cares whether or not you think you could beat them at strategy in a mini game, or anything else for that matter.
At least two different people in this thread have cared enough to comment on the matter....
Originally posted by Samwise
As opposed to your need to regularly harass me Delglath?
I consider that a civil duty...
Abysslin
Originally posted by abysslin
All 4 of you remind me of 2 married couples at a swinger's party. I'm just wondering, when it's all over who is going to be going home with who at the end of the night?
chat and I are Montand's *****es so we go back to him. StevieS has his blow up doll of Gygax whereas Sam has no-one to play with but himself...
Originally posted by abysslin
All 4 of you remind me of 2 married couples at a swinger's party. I'm just wondering, when it's all over who is going to be going home with who at the end of the night?
Hey, I thought I told you to wear the big boy pants when coming to play with the grown ups.