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What were they thinking?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
factol_rhys_dup
Oct 09, 2003 17:19:25 I know everyone loves planescape and all, but there must be something that you read and just thought, "What were they sodding thinking?" Got any funny ones?
#2
zombiegleemax
Oct 09, 2003 19:50:30 Just about everything I've read regarding the Xaositects.
#3
Beleriphon
Oct 14, 2003 4:16:48 The entirety of the Great Modron March.

Neat stuff, cool stuff, but what were they thinking?
#4
gadodel
Oct 14, 2003 4:36:37 Downplaying the importance of the Rilmani in 3E from 2E...
#5
incenjucar
Oct 14, 2003 5:59:38 What, you don't like that they went from being klingon-skulled shadows of the demi-human races that kept the balance across the entirity of the multiverse, in to being gloppy, nearly-formless nudists?

You nut you.

#6
davethebrave371
Oct 15, 2003 19:36:08
Originally posted by Incenjucar
What, you don't like that they went from being klingon-skulled shadows of the demi-human races that kept the balance across the entirity of the multiverse, in to being gloppy, nearly-formless nudists?

You nut you.

Touche.

But I think he meant the downplaying of Rilmani importance. It's all "FIENDS CELESTIALS WOOO!!!!"

In fact, they've practically ignored the LN planes too...they're all over the Slaad, Fiends and Celestials, but not much on anything LN or N. LG, NG, CG, CN, LE, NE, CE. Those are the new alignments of D&D. Maybe it's too represent the take on 3e to 3.5...no balance for some spells, and when they tried to fix it, it seemed to have no real order or form. Chaos rules in 3rd!
#7
incenjucar
Oct 15, 2003 21:17:38 Unfortunately, the whole 'back to the dungeon' thing seems to mean they want to focus on things you're likely to go hack and slash on, rather than the universal ecosystem as a whole.
#8
primemover003
Oct 15, 2003 21:34:49
Originally posted by Incenjucar
Unfortunately, the whole 'back to the dungeon' thing seems to mean they want to focus on things you're likely to go hack and slash on, rather than the universal ecosystem as a whole.

I noticed that too. They made it really hard to come up with anything other than site based/keyed map adventures. The 3.5 DMG is a little better about it now, but wilderness rules sucked in 3.0 until the FR Silver Marches came out.
#9
incenjucar
Oct 15, 2003 21:54:37 Yeppers.

That and monster entries have not only gone downhill, many of them pointlessly break tradition*.

In 2e, monster entries ALWAYS had a society entry and an ecology entry. In Planescape especially (But not only, of course), many many monsters had 2+ page entries.

Now we have... sound bites.

*There are now male lamias, medusae all look like they're half-lizards, etc etc. Next thing you know, they'll have male hags and red dragons with feathered wings.
#10
Shemeska_the_Marauder
Oct 16, 2003 1:22:21 The Yugoloth pictures in the MMII. You can't make out facial detail on the Arcanaloth.

And between the writing table he's using, and the positions of the other 'loths, especially the Maraennoloth, it makes it look like he's playing the keyboard in a boy band from Gehenna.

If only Tony Di could have done the art for the 'loths...
#11
incenjucar
Oct 16, 2003 2:48:52 And here I thought the Arcanaloth (Which looks like it has a bear's head) was the host, the grateful-dead Marraenoloth was the cab driver, and the goth-makeup-wearing Yagnoloth was the waiter at the Styx-Side Cafe`. Of course, what they really want to do is act.
#12
Shemeska_the_Marauder
Oct 16, 2003 11:53:43 *chuckle* You're right, it does look like a bears head in the picture. Ugg.
#13
zombiegleemax
Oct 16, 2003 11:55:46
Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder
If only Tony Di could have done the art for the 'loths...

Or MotP, for that matter...!

Mine? In 3e, The near-elimination of the Modrons in MotP, in favor of the Formians. Sheesh!

And in Planescape? Over-use of "cant" in the DM sections. "Oi, berk, want to run the cross-trade, cutter?" (No, I just want to run an adventure for my players, thanks...)
#14
Shemeska_the_Marauder
Oct 16, 2003 12:07:59 *giggle* And whats wrong with the cant? (oh so tempting to speak in heavy cant from this point on, but... I'll be nice)

If it makes you feel any better, we've tried to restrict the use of cant in the Planescape 3e material to flavor text, in character material, stories, and descriptions. Anything mechanics related, or rules related, DM advice etc is written with a minimum of cant.

It seemed to be a relatively nice balance struck on the issue, since some people (like myself) loved it, and other people loathed it. When writing, the cant does have a tendency to just pop up though, sort of like ooze mephits near the Night Market, just not as smelly. Or something like that. :D
#15
zombiegleemax
Oct 16, 2003 12:13:03 Don't get me wrong, I *like* the cant - in its proper place. It is very useful for making the planes feel different, especially if the PCs are clueless fresh-to-the-planes.

But in DM only text? No, thanks. Just the facts, please, and stop calling me "berk..."

;)
#16
incenjucar
Oct 16, 2003 13:53:18 The one thing I find amusing about the cant... almost everyone seems to call everyone else a 'fool'.

*gets this image of a solar waving to his friend and calling out, "What up, foo'?"*
#17
factol_rhys_dup
Oct 16, 2003 14:03:16 How about the way that, unfortunately, in Planescape, the game-mechanics too often could not find a way to peacefully coexist with the flavor text. In-character sections would tell you you need a +2 weapon to hit a creature or talk about characters of at least x level. Now, maybe there wasn't a better way to handle it, and it didn't always happen, but every time it did I thought it was weird.

Or another thing, how about when in 2e they would describe planar effects or anomalies in a general way and then never say how they worked in the game?
#18
Shemeska_the_Marauder
Oct 16, 2003 22:23:32
Originally posted by Incenjucar
The one thing I find amusing about the cant... almost everyone seems to call everyone else a 'fool'.

*gets this image of a solar waving to his friend and calling out, "What up, foo'?"*

No no no, there's no district in the Hive called Compton. :D Fo shizzle!

(I deserve to be drug out into the street and shot for saying that. I feel like I got stupider just by saying it...)
#19
incenjucar
Oct 16, 2003 22:55:46 Be that as it may, I have it on good authority that dialect known as "ebonics" stemmed from the Chaosmen, because bloods started figuring out their mixed-word phrases too easily.
#20
zombiegleemax
Oct 17, 2003 4:14:59 Like hell we did. No, ebonics was an Anarchist construction, designed to subvert the dominant control structures inherent in language. They just made it look like the Oasxemn did it, so the Harmonium would come down on them instead of the Fated, who were busy introducing [strike]crack[/strike] various addictive drugs into the hive population to keep it under control.
#21
zombiegleemax
Nov 15, 2003 13:45:45 (stacking the last brick to finish my garbage pelting prevention fort) Ummm....

Uhhhhh....

Well.....

I always thought it was lame they decided you couldn't kill powers.

(ducking)
#22
zombiegleemax
Nov 15, 2003 17:01:28 No no no--there's a trick to getting rid of powers for good. Step one--convince them to **** of the Lady. Step 2--watch the fun.
#23
tsuga_c
Nov 23, 2003 18:06:19
Originally posted by davethebrave371

But I think he meant the downplaying of Rilmani importance. It's all "FIENDS CELESTIALS WOOO!!!!"

The Rilmani were shafted across the board by those nitwits at WotC! And why the hell didn't they insist that on revising all six in the same book? Undoubtedly some piece of decided to try a cadge more money from us by splitting them up so we need to buy yet another book.

RILMANI!
#24
bob_the_efreet
Nov 24, 2003 1:20:07 I must concur that the Rilmani do, indeed, r0xx0r your b0xx0rs. Now that we have that matter out of the way, my 'what??' moment had to do with a stat block for Asmodeus in the BoVD.
#25
zombiegleemax
Nov 24, 2003 7:33:46 My "what?" moment was finding out about the Malboge thing in the Blood War boxed set, the thing that allowed fiends to teleport.
#26
Shemeska_the_Marauder
Nov 24, 2003 12:04:13 *grin* The Maeldur was fun... of course the fiends have that ability back in 3/3.5, so ask yourself what happened after the 'loths got it back to restore that ability across the board to the other fiends?

(this'll be addressed in PS3e to rationalize the events of Hellbound with the 3e fiend abilities to still teleport. We've had some lively debate on the matter)
#27
jasperdm
Nov 24, 2003 12:22:00 Simple, remember that in 2E Teleport without Error also allowed the ability to jump from plane to plane, and in 3E that has been split into Teleport and Plane Shift, so giving the fiends teleportation didn't give them the ability to storm the other planes without the benefits of calling magic or portals, which was what TSR wanted to squelch. Teleporting's fine, but having every two-bit fiend in the Abyss able to just pop over to the Prime AT WILL sets up BAD SITUATIONS. Hence, notice lots of teleport, very little plane shift or similar innate abilities.

If you go back to the adventure, it's pretty clear the monster's function is to facilitate planar travel, or rather, from a writer's standpoint, to remove it with it's death. Teleportation is nothing compared to the old-school Teleport without Error's "you may teleport to a location on another plane, with the same chance of success as a standard teleport"...and notice that part's conspicuous absence in 3.0 OR 3.5...the fiends have to find a wizard or a portal, just like the rest of us.
#28
zombiegleemax
Nov 30, 2003 22:49:54 Yeah, apparently the 'loths (yes, you Shemmy) decided "we'll give 'em back the ability--but we'll give them it poorly". Not a bad choice, imo either.
#29
Shemeska_the_Marauder
Dec 01, 2003 1:02:06 *innocent whistle* I'll admit to being part of the discussion on Planewalker about how to rationalize the 3e material on the WotC books with the events in Hellbound....
#30
zombiegleemax
Dec 01, 2003 1:30:03
Originally posted by Tsuga C
The Rilmani were shafted across the board by those nitwits at WotC! And why the hell didn't they insist that on revising all six in the same book? Undoubtedly some piece of decided to try a cadge more money from us by splitting them up so we need to buy yet another book.

RILMANI!

A fan! *grins*

Yes, we did get shafted in 3E's Fiend Folio. Look at that atrocious artwork. And when did people get the idea that we're bloody nudists? And shapeless nudists, at that?

Of course, the written descriptions of us completely contradict the artwork. So, what were they thinking?
#31
sildatorak
Dec 01, 2003 1:36:31 Don't forget, though...off target with a 2e teleport meant you arrived high or low...low generally equals death, even for fiends. Even a pit fiend is wary of having his head fused with the blasted earth of a Blood War battle ground. If I were a bad-ass fiend with 2e TPwoE I would only use it for interplanar travel if I thought that I was done for if I didn't (in a millenia long life that will occur often enough to make even that be pressing your luck).

The fiend nerf I hated the most was the toning down of the gate ability that almost all fiends have. Instead of potentially getting an endless stream of dretches, you get a set number that can't call for any of their buddies...it makes the Tanar'ri so much less threatening than in 2e when any one of them could start a chain reaction leading to an army of fiends proportional to the danger they faced.
#32
zombiegleemax
Dec 01, 2003 13:45:23 My what?!? moment was whole thing in the hellbound set that the 'loths gave the other fiends the teleport without error ability in the first place.

It seemed to me if the 'loths had that much power in the first place (to give an infinite number of beings an inherrent 7th level spell like ability and then take it away) then why were they dinking around on the lower planes. You can put that sort of power to much better uses. EVIL uses.
#33
eagleye
Dec 01, 2003 14:07:06 the problem with the cant is that is doesn't translate well to other languages. try making a spanish or dutch sentence, and try comming up with a translation of "berk" or "jink". one alternative is not translation the words at all, but that is plain silly sometimes. the last alternative is not using the cant at all (in other languages, mind you), which is the option i prefer.
#34
zombiegleemax
Dec 02, 2003 17:10:57 Why are you wondering what someone else thinks? Doesn't that imply that YOU are thinking?

I thought you were further along in the cadence.

THINKER!

;P
#35
zombiegleemax
Dec 02, 2003 17:33:16 If you knew better, you'd know that there's a time to think, and a time not to think, and stopping to wonder if this is the time to think would be bad. It's those unnatural pauses the get you dissonant with the cadence. Pauses in the right places however, are action too.
#36
primemover003
Dec 02, 2003 18:56:32 [sarcasm]Why translate? Everyone should be speaking the midwestern dialect of american english anyway... But instead it seems everyone will be speaking the Urban dialect of American ebonics... Ah hip hop culture, beamed to every home on the planet through the wonders of MTV....[/sarcasm]
#37
tsuga_c
Dec 02, 2003 19:45:45
Originally posted by Center of All
Of course, the written descriptions of us completely contradict the artwork. So, what were they thinking?

Artistic license? *Ptooey*

Tsuga C, Cuprilach

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 factol_rhys_dup Oct 09, 2003 17:19:25	I know everyone loves planescape and all, but there must be something that you read and just thought, "What were they sodding thinking?" Got any funny ones?
#2 zombiegleemax Oct 09, 2003 19:50:30	Just about everything I've read regarding the Xaositects.
#3 Beleriphon Oct 14, 2003 4:16:48	The entirety of the Great Modron March. Neat stuff, cool stuff, but what were they thinking?
#4 gadodel Oct 14, 2003 4:36:37	Downplaying the importance of the Rilmani in 3E from 2E...
#5 incenjucar Oct 14, 2003 5:59:38	What, you don't like that they went from being klingon-skulled shadows of the demi-human races that kept the balance across the entirity of the multiverse, in to being gloppy, nearly-formless nudists? You nut you.
#6 davethebrave371 Oct 15, 2003 19:36:08	Originally posted by Incenjucar What, you don't like that they went from being klingon-skulled shadows of the demi-human races that kept the balance across the entirity of the multiverse, in to being gloppy, nearly-formless nudists? You nut you. Touche. But I think he meant the downplaying of Rilmani importance. It's all "FIENDS CELESTIALS WOOO!!!!" In fact, they've practically ignored the LN planes too...they're all over the Slaad, Fiends and Celestials, but not much on anything LN or N. LG, NG, CG, CN, LE, NE, CE. Those are the new alignments of D&D. Maybe it's too represent the take on 3e to 3.5...no balance for some spells, and when they tried to fix it, it seemed to have no real order or form. Chaos rules in 3rd!
#7 incenjucar Oct 15, 2003 21:17:38	Unfortunately, the whole 'back to the dungeon' thing seems to mean they want to focus on things you're likely to go hack and slash on, rather than the universal ecosystem as a whole.
#8 primemover003 Oct 15, 2003 21:34:49	Originally posted by Incenjucar Unfortunately, the whole 'back to the dungeon' thing seems to mean they want to focus on things you're likely to go hack and slash on, rather than the universal ecosystem as a whole. I noticed that too. They made it really hard to come up with anything other than site based/keyed map adventures. The 3.5 DMG is a little better about it now, but wilderness rules sucked in 3.0 until the FR Silver Marches came out.
#9 incenjucar Oct 15, 2003 21:54:37	Yeppers. That and monster entries have not only gone downhill, many of them pointlessly break tradition. In 2e, monster entries ALWAYS had a society entry and an ecology entry. In Planescape especially (But not only, of course), many many monsters had 2+ page entries. Now we have... sound bites. There are now male lamias, medusae all look like they're half-lizards, etc etc. Next thing you know, they'll have male hags and red dragons with feathered wings.
#10 Shemeska_the_Marauder Oct 16, 2003 1:22:21	The Yugoloth pictures in the MMII. You can't make out facial detail on the Arcanaloth. And between the writing table he's using, and the positions of the other 'loths, especially the Maraennoloth, it makes it look like he's playing the keyboard in a boy band from Gehenna. If only Tony Di could have done the art for the 'loths...
#11 incenjucar Oct 16, 2003 2:48:52	And here I thought the Arcanaloth (Which looks like it has a bear's head) was the host, the grateful-dead Marraenoloth was the cab driver, and the goth-makeup-wearing Yagnoloth was the waiter at the Styx-Side Cafe`. Of course, what they really want to do is act.
#12 Shemeska_the_Marauder Oct 16, 2003 11:53:43	chuckle You're right, it does look like a bears head in the picture. Ugg.
#13 zombiegleemax Oct 16, 2003 11:55:46	Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder If only Tony Di could have done the art for the 'loths... Or MotP, for that matter...! Mine? In 3e, The near-elimination of the Modrons in MotP, in favor of the Formians. Sheesh! And in Planescape? Over-use of "cant" in the DM sections. "Oi, berk, want to run the cross-trade, cutter?" (No, I just want to run an adventure for my players, thanks...)
#14 Shemeska_the_Marauder Oct 16, 2003 12:07:59	giggle And whats wrong with the cant? (oh so tempting to speak in heavy cant from this point on, but... I'll be nice) If it makes you feel any better, we've tried to restrict the use of cant in the Planescape 3e material to flavor text, in character material, stories, and descriptions. Anything mechanics related, or rules related, DM advice etc is written with a minimum of cant. It seemed to be a relatively nice balance struck on the issue, since some people (like myself) loved it, and other people loathed it. When writing, the cant does have a tendency to just pop up though, sort of like ooze mephits near the Night Market, just not as smelly. Or something like that. :D
#15 zombiegleemax Oct 16, 2003 12:13:03	Don't get me wrong, I like the cant - in its proper place. It is very useful for making the planes feel different, especially if the PCs are clueless fresh-to-the-planes. But in DM only text? No, thanks. Just the facts, please, and stop calling me "berk..." ;)
#16 incenjucar Oct 16, 2003 13:53:18	The one thing I find amusing about the cant... almost everyone seems to call everyone else a 'fool'. gets this image of a solar waving to his friend and calling out, "What up, foo'?"
#17 factol_rhys_dup Oct 16, 2003 14:03:16	How about the way that, unfortunately, in Planescape, the game-mechanics too often could not find a way to peacefully coexist with the flavor text. In-character sections would tell you you need a +2 weapon to hit a creature or talk about characters of at least x level. Now, maybe there wasn't a better way to handle it, and it didn't always happen, but every time it did I thought it was weird. Or another thing, how about when in 2e they would describe planar effects or anomalies in a general way and then never say how they worked in the game?
#18 Shemeska_the_Marauder Oct 16, 2003 22:23:32	Originally posted by Incenjucar The one thing I find amusing about the cant... almost everyone seems to call everyone else a 'fool'. gets this image of a solar waving to his friend and calling out, "What up, foo'?" No no no, there's no district in the Hive called Compton. :D Fo shizzle! (I deserve to be drug out into the street and shot for saying that. I feel like I got stupider just by saying it...)
#19 incenjucar Oct 16, 2003 22:55:46	Be that as it may, I have it on good authority that dialect known as "ebonics" stemmed from the Chaosmen, because bloods started figuring out their mixed-word phrases too easily.
#20 zombiegleemax Oct 17, 2003 4:14:59	Like hell we did. No, ebonics was an Anarchist construction, designed to subvert the dominant control structures inherent in language. They just made it look like the Oasxemn did it, so the Harmonium would come down on them instead of the Fated, who were busy introducing [strike]crack[/strike] various addictive drugs into the hive population to keep it under control.
#21 zombiegleemax Nov 15, 2003 13:45:45	(stacking the last brick to finish my garbage pelting prevention fort) Ummm.... Uhhhhh.... Well..... I always thought it was lame they decided you couldn't kill powers. (ducking)
#22 zombiegleemax Nov 15, 2003 17:01:28	No no no--there's a trick to getting rid of powers for good. Step one--convince them to **** of the Lady. Step 2--watch the fun.
#23 tsuga_c Nov 23, 2003 18:06:19	Originally posted by davethebrave371 But I think he meant the downplaying of Rilmani importance. It's all "FIENDS CELESTIALS WOOO!!!!" The Rilmani were shafted across the board by those nitwits at WotC! And why the hell didn't they insist that on revising all six in the same book? Undoubtedly some piece of decided to try a cadge more money from us by splitting them up so we need to buy yet another book. RILMANI!
#24 bob_the_efreet Nov 24, 2003 1:20:07	I must concur that the Rilmani do, indeed, r0xx0r your b0xx0rs. Now that we have that matter out of the way, my 'what??' moment had to do with a stat block for Asmodeus in the BoVD.
#25 zombiegleemax Nov 24, 2003 7:33:46	My "what?" moment was finding out about the Malboge thing in the Blood War boxed set, the thing that allowed fiends to teleport.
#26 Shemeska_the_Marauder Nov 24, 2003 12:04:13	grin The Maeldur was fun... of course the fiends have that ability back in 3/3.5, so ask yourself what happened after the 'loths got it back to restore that ability across the board to the other fiends? (this'll be addressed in PS3e to rationalize the events of Hellbound with the 3e fiend abilities to still teleport. We've had some lively debate on the matter)
#27 jasperdm Nov 24, 2003 12:22:00	Simple, remember that in 2E Teleport without Error also allowed the ability to jump from plane to plane, and in 3E that has been split into Teleport and Plane Shift, so giving the fiends teleportation didn't give them the ability to storm the other planes without the benefits of calling magic or portals, which was what TSR wanted to squelch. Teleporting's fine, but having every two-bit fiend in the Abyss able to just pop over to the Prime AT WILL sets up BAD SITUATIONS. Hence, notice lots of teleport, very little plane shift or similar innate abilities. If you go back to the adventure, it's pretty clear the monster's function is to facilitate planar travel, or rather, from a writer's standpoint, to remove it with it's death. Teleportation is nothing compared to the old-school Teleport without Error's "you may teleport to a location on another plane, with the same chance of success as a standard teleport"...and notice that part's conspicuous absence in 3.0 OR 3.5...the fiends have to find a wizard or a portal, just like the rest of us.
#28 zombiegleemax Nov 30, 2003 22:49:54	Yeah, apparently the 'loths (yes, you Shemmy) decided "we'll give 'em back the ability--but we'll give them it poorly". Not a bad choice, imo either.
#29 Shemeska_the_Marauder Dec 01, 2003 1:02:06	innocent whistle I'll admit to being part of the discussion on Planewalker about how to rationalize the 3e material on the WotC books with the events in Hellbound....
#30 zombiegleemax Dec 01, 2003 1:30:03	Originally posted by Tsuga C The Rilmani were shafted across the board by those nitwits at WotC! And why the hell didn't they insist that on revising all six in the same book? Undoubtedly some piece of decided to try a cadge more money from us by splitting them up so we need to buy yet another book. RILMANI! A fan! grins Yes, we did get shafted in 3E's Fiend Folio. Look at that atrocious artwork. And when did people get the idea that we're bloody nudists? And shapeless nudists, at that? Of course, the written descriptions of us completely contradict the artwork. So, what were they thinking?
#31 sildatorak Dec 01, 2003 1:36:31	Don't forget, though...off target with a 2e teleport meant you arrived high or low...low generally equals death, even for fiends. Even a pit fiend is wary of having his head fused with the blasted earth of a Blood War battle ground. If I were a bad-ass fiend with 2e TPwoE I would only use it for interplanar travel if I thought that I was done for if I didn't (in a millenia long life that will occur often enough to make even that be pressing your luck). The fiend nerf I hated the most was the toning down of the gate ability that almost all fiends have. Instead of potentially getting an endless stream of dretches, you get a set number that can't call for any of their buddies...it makes the Tanar'ri so much less threatening than in 2e when any one of them could start a chain reaction leading to an army of fiends proportional to the danger they faced.
#32 zombiegleemax Dec 01, 2003 13:45:23	My what?!? moment was whole thing in the hellbound set that the 'loths gave the other fiends the teleport without error ability in the first place. It seemed to me if the 'loths had that much power in the first place (to give an infinite number of beings an inherrent 7th level spell like ability and then take it away) then why were they dinking around on the lower planes. You can put that sort of power to much better uses. EVIL uses.
#33 eagleye Dec 01, 2003 14:07:06	the problem with the cant is that is doesn't translate well to other languages. try making a spanish or dutch sentence, and try comming up with a translation of "berk" or "jink". one alternative is not translation the words at all, but that is plain silly sometimes. the last alternative is not using the cant at all (in other languages, mind you), which is the option i prefer.
#34 zombiegleemax Dec 02, 2003 17:10:57	Why are you wondering what someone else thinks? Doesn't that imply that YOU are thinking? I thought you were further along in the cadence. THINKER! ;P
#35 zombiegleemax Dec 02, 2003 17:33:16	If you knew better, you'd know that there's a time to think, and a time not to think, and stopping to wonder if this is the time to think would be bad. It's those unnatural pauses the get you dissonant with the cadence. Pauses in the right places however, are action too.
#36 primemover003 Dec 02, 2003 18:56:32	[sarcasm]Why translate? Everyone should be speaking the midwestern dialect of american english anyway... But instead it seems everyone will be speaking the Urban dialect of American ebonics... Ah hip hop culture, beamed to every home on the planet through the wonders of MTV....[/sarcasm]
#37 tsuga_c Dec 02, 2003 19:45:45	Originally posted by Center of All Of course, the written descriptions of us completely contradict the artwork. So, what were they thinking? Artistic license? Ptooey Tsuga C, Cuprilach