Astinus *IS* a god - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Astinus *IS* a god

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
daedavias_dup
Oct 13, 2003 23:36:42 If you have the Annotated Legends, flip to page 1134. In the bottom left corner sidebar, it in one shape or form states that Astinus IS a god!
#2
talinthas
Oct 14, 2003 2:50:19 current theory has it that astinus is the scholar that the high god pulled out of space and time to give the tobril. Basically he becomes gilean, and leaves right at the chaos war's end, and doesnt return, because he is a god.

its a self recurcive cycle.
#3
rath_the_ranger
Oct 14, 2003 15:56:36
Originally posted by talinthas
current theory has it that astinus is the scholar that the high god pulled out of space and time...

See, and here I thought He just pulled Astinus out of His A55. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
#4
daedavias_dup
Oct 14, 2003 18:06:10
Originally posted by Rath the Ranger
See, and here I thought He just pulled Astinus out of His A55. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

'

*Pulls out +5 Staff of Beating the Crap Out of People*

WHAM!

Serves you right for trying to derail my thread.
#5
zombiegleemax
Oct 14, 2003 19:38:02 Astinus is a mystery.

On the one hand, odds are good that he is either an avatar or a proxy of Gilean.

On the other hand, he needed Raistlin to provide him with the Orb of Present Time Passing to more effectively view events across Krynn. Presumably, he would not need such a thing if he were, in fact, Gilean.
#6
zombiegleemax
Oct 14, 2003 20:22:45 sure he would. Astinus is Gilean pre-Ascension, so he does not have the unlimited mind and vision of a true god. On the other hand he is immortal, so my guess is he was created by Gilean to serve as the chronicler of krynn, so that he could eventually ascend to godhood by being pulled back through time to be reborn as Gilean.
#7
zombiegleemax
Oct 14, 2003 20:41:45 Astinus is a reflection on Kyrnn's past and present. At the least he is a symbol, at most he is an avatar. I doubt he is a god.

Until finishing the War of Souls I would have argued that he is connected to the past and present as any God is connected to good or evil. As such he would have disappeared after the Chaos War because Kyrnn's past also disappeared. Now that the Gods have returned and he is still not present, I have no idea.

So much for my thoughts...
#8
zombiegleemax
Oct 14, 2003 22:07:17 Astinus is an immortal Astral Dragon.... some say he is the son of gilean as well...
#9
zombiegleemax
Oct 14, 2003 23:09:07 I have an Idea!!!

.
.
.
.
.
.

Astinus is just Astinus. And that's that.
#10
zombiegleemax
Oct 15, 2003 0:33:05 In the legends trillogy Raistlin tells crysania that Astinus is but a mouthpiece for gilean...aka Avatar (Palidine=Fizban)
#11
The_White_Sorcerer
Oct 15, 2003 0:46:39
Originally posted by Magus_Extreme
Astinus is just Astinus. And that's that.

If we accepted that, our lives would be a lot more boring.
It's fun thinking of theories about Astinus. So I hope the truth will never be revealed.
#12
rath_the_ranger
Oct 15, 2003 15:34:47
Originally posted by Daedavias
'

*Pulls out +5 Staff of Beating the Crap Out of People*

WHAM!

Serves you right for trying to derail my thread.

*Pulls out a dose of REALITY and hands it to Daedavias*

I wasn't trying to derail your thread, I was making light of the post by Talinthas. Although, it would serve you right if I was attempting to derail the thread, since you're just rehashing the same old boring threads we've had here since the beginning of time.
#13
zombiegleemax
Oct 16, 2003 21:31:32
Astinus is a mystery.

On the one hand, odds are good that he is either an avatar or a proxy of Gilean.

On the other hand, he needed Raistlin to provide him with the Orb of Present Time Passing to more effectively view events across Krynn. Presumably, he would not need such a thing if he were, in fact, Gilean.

Options:

1- Astinus is Gilean.
2- Astinus is the DM
3- Astinus is something more powerful than any god; Astinus is Time

Whatever the case, he has forsaken his power on Krynn so that he would not be tempted to intervene. By doing so, he has put it beyond his ability to interfere and was thus unable to create the Orb on his own.
#14
zombiegleemax
Oct 17, 2003 1:45:42
Originally posted by Steel_Wind

Whatever the case, he has forsaken his power on Krynn so that he would not be tempted to intervene. By doing so, he has put it beyond his ability to interfere and was thus unable to create the Orb on his own.

What I always thought possible was that the Gods are a reflection of those who have contributed to the Dragonlance world. Weis and Hickman are paramount and as such are reflected by Paladine and Tahkisis (I don't know which god reflects which person, though) whilst the High God represents the company Wizards, who bought these Gods together to form Kyrnn.

When using this logic, Astinus is more likely a representative of the unfortunate 'new guy at work' who has to retype and format the story into the novels.

In concerns to what Steel_Wind has said, that unfortunate 'new guy at work' has proberly quit his job:

Wizards Manager: Hey new guy Astinus! Can you format this new book?
Astinus: *Sigh* what is it based on?
Wizards Manager: A kender who uses a device of time travelling to go forward into the future. His name is Tas -
Astinus: - Tas! Again! Blow this, I'm going home!
#15
zombiegleemax
Oct 17, 2003 12:28:49 That's the funniest theory i've ever heard....lol
#16
zombiegleemax
Oct 17, 2003 22:46:49 Astinus hasn't returned with the gods?
#17
cam_banks
Oct 17, 2003 23:29:49
Originally posted by Jacen Solo 5007
Astinus hasn't returned with the gods?

Nope.

Cheers,
Cam
#18
randpc
Oct 18, 2003 9:02:37
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Nope.

Cheers,
Cam

Times like this are one of the few times when I'm glad I'm DM'ing all the time and seldom get a chance to play.... with but a word I can magically change history to ensure Astinus is back
#19
zombiegleemax
Oct 19, 2003 16:01:18 I'm bringing Astinus back, reincarnated in baby form.
#20
zombiegleemax
Oct 20, 2003 13:50:04 According to the novel, "Player's of Gilean" it is revealed that Astinius is the son of Gilean, making himself and his brother Sebastius, demi-gods. A similar thread was started on the novel boards some time ago, if you want more information.
#21
cam_banks
Oct 20, 2003 14:16:50
Originally posted by DRAKERYM RAVENSHADOW
According to the novel, "Player's of Gilean" it is revealed that Astinius is the son of Gilean, making himself and his brother Sebastius, demi-gods. A similar thread was started on the novel boards some time ago, if you want more information.

Of course, that's just what Sebastius says he is. That doesn't mean it's the truth, and in fact I believe Margaret has said this isn't necessarily true.

Cheers,
Cam
#22
zombiegleemax
Oct 20, 2003 14:52:54 True, Cam, those were only the words of Sebastius himself, and since I don't work closely with Sovereign Press, I don't know what Ms. Weiss personal feelings are on the subject. However, she has stated that Soth never went to Ravenloft as well, but the copy of "knight of the Black Rose" on my book shelf says otherwise. My point is, and I hope I'm not sounding condescending, that the only answer we've recieved about Astinius, thus far, is that he is, or is rumored to be Gileans son. Until it is stated otherwise, that is all we have to go by.
#23
shugi
Oct 20, 2003 15:06:31 True, Drakerym, but there's one key difference. Sebastius might be lying, falsifying information, etc., whereas Soth was actually transferred to Ravenloft. Who's to say that Sebastius wasn't lying?

The cross-point of the Astinus argument is that Annotated Legends indicates that Astinus is either Gilean himself or an avatar.
#24
daedavias_dup
Oct 20, 2003 16:01:22
Originally posted by Shugi
True, Drakerym, but there's one key difference. Sebastius might be lying, falsifying information, etc., whereas Soth was actually transferred to Ravenloft. Who's to say that Sebastius wasn't lying?

That's what my take on it is. Here we have a guy that no one has seen before that claims to be the son of a god and the brother of a man that has existed since the beginning of humanity. So why haven't we seen or heard this guy in the man in ages past, probably because he wasn't born yet. Now, if we had Astinus agreeing with him on all accounts, then there might be some truth to that, however since Astinus has denied comment, we may never know.
#25
zombiegleemax
Oct 20, 2003 16:04:16 Yet another good point, and as I have yet to read "Annotated Legends", I shouldn't comment on what it says. better to keep your mouth shut and appear to be a fool, than open your mouth and remove all doubt.
#26
daedavias_dup
Oct 20, 2003 16:19:58
Originally posted by DRAKERYM RAVENSHADOW
Yet another good point, and as I have yet to read "Annotated Legends", I shouldn't comment on what it says. better to keep your mouth shut and appear to be a fool, than open your mouth and remove all doubt.

Wise decision. I thought I transcribed Tracy's words here, but that was at the other boards. Since I don't have my Annotated Legends on me and I don't feel like copying stuff from the other boards, I guess you are out of luck.

*In a hypnotic voice*
You will buy the Annotated Legends...You will buy the Annotated Legends...
#27
shugi
Oct 20, 2003 18:37:26 You're in luck - I have it right here. You don't really have to go to page 1134, though. Both are Tracy's comments.

Page 2: "I believe that Astinus is, indeed, an Avatar of Gilean - if not the personification of Gilean himself."

Page 1134: "...the gods that are known in Krynn at this time are highly fallible, which explains Astinus's surprise at the book from the alternate future."
#28
daedavias_dup
Oct 20, 2003 21:51:29
Originally posted by Shugi
You're in luck - I have it right here. You don't really have to go to page 1134, though. Both are Tracy's comments.

Page 2: "I believe that Astinus is, indeed, an Avatar of Gilean - if not the personification of Gilean himself."

Page 1134: "...the gods that are known in Krynn at this time are highly fallible, which explains Astinus's surprise at the book from the alternate future."

I haven't read through the Annotated Legends completely yet(I have just been picking away at things I want to read again). The phrase I brought before was one that just caught my eye.
#29
zombiegleemax
Oct 20, 2003 23:40:16 Ok now that the quotes from "Annotated Legends" has been posted, I feel I can comment. Mr. Hickman states that he believes Astinius to be an avatar of Gilean, yet he also echoed the comments about Soth I posted above. Now are we to only believe the words of two creators of this world? And if so does that mean that all the time spent reading and money spent buying all the books in the saga was wasted? Since Weis and Hickman never once mentioned the Knights of the Divine Hammer, we should believe that the events in the Istar Trilogy are a kender tale? I mean here is a whole organization never mentioned before, much like the character of Sebastius, so should we take their statements and exploits be taken with the same grain of salt as Sebastius' statements? This is what I love so much about DL, the passion it inspires in its fans to have a spirited debate, about something that has no right or wrong answers. Especially about a charcter like Astinius, who regardless of whether he has divine status or not, is not as central to the saga as say Raistlin,Sturm or Tanis.
#30
zombiegleemax
Oct 21, 2003 3:43:27 But if you really want to hear from someone who KNOWS about such things, I actually met Astinus once. I was in Palanthas during harvest festival and somehow found myself in this wonderful magic shop holding a golden wand. I'd had a bit to drink the night before, but I can usually hold my liquor fairly well, so I think I was drugged by gypsys and forced to entertain an army of goblins who were demanding a gypsy sacrifice or something horrible like that, it's all a blur. You have to watch out about those gypsys. Anyway, so I had this wand, and a wizened old lunatic comes running out from behind the counter yelling at me. I swear, merchants in Palanthas mustn't want to sell anything to anybody because all they ever do is yell at me when I try to browse. He was saying something about the thing being dangerous and "command word" this, "magic missle" that, and I was going to say, "Well, shoot, I'm just looking at it!" and put it down, but all I got out was "Well, shoot" and the next thing I know there's a big hole in the roof. Where was I? Oh yeah, so he grabs the wand and points it at me! I actually think he was going to use it on me! But I got out of there pretty fast and ran down a few blocks and jumped in an open window because you never know how crazy a crazy wizard is. And that's a very good moral for this story. But anyway, the window belonged to a library and the library belonged to the city of Palanthas but they let Astinus have it 'cause nobody wants him telling where they've been spending their nights or the tax money. Well, he was about to throw me out, but I immediately asked if he was Astinus because I'd heard a great deal about him and suggested he should try some Velination tea that I picked up in Nordmaar. He brightened considerably, well, not really, but he did agree and in the conversation that ensued, that topic actually came up. He, Astinus, is one of the alvin tars for Gilean. His brother Sebastius is another alvin tar as well, but he's all artsy and roams around with a bunch of actors. We were having a great time, well, not really, when he got grouchy about my peering too closely at this globe thing on his desk. I said I was sorry and he explained that an old friend of his had given it to him. "A majere alvin tar" he said it was, but then he told me he had to get back to his work and I, supposing that the wizard outside had gotten lost in his lunacy, thought it was probably safe to leave. So that's it. True story!

Love,
Haldon
#31
cam_banks
Oct 21, 2003 8:35:19 To continue with my clever Astinus-is-taken-back-to-be-Gilean theory, let's say that the recursive loop in time that is Gilean required some kind of back-up plan or alternative that would ensure in Gilean's existence. The High God reached through time, snatched Astinus from his chambers in the Great Library right at the point of Chaos' defeat, and bestowed the powers of a god upon him. He then provided Gilean with the Tobril and all knowledge.

Gilean recognized that he would need to ensure that Astinus would come about and acquire the connection to the River of Time that he would need in order to provide the High God with the mortal template for himself. Gilean engineered Astinus' birth, bestowed upon him immortality and a talent for historical record-keeping, and waited. At one point, Raistlin (as Fistandantilus) arrived and gave Gilean the globe that he used to view all events across the world, which is something Gilean may also have counted on.

As a fail-safe, Gilean also engineered another individual's birth, Sebastius. It was Sebastius' role in this endless loop of time to replace Astinus in the event of Astinus' death by misadventure or assault. Gilean knew that if Astinus died, he himself would cease to exist, as the High God wouldn't have anybody to bring back through time. Thus, gifting Sebastius with the same immortality and hunger for knowledge that Astinus has, he made sure that if Astinus couldn't become Gilean, Sebastius would.

As it happens, Sebastius never becomes Gilean, as Astinus lived all the way up to the point where the High God plucked him out of the River of Time. So, Sebastius continues to do what he's done for centuries - travel about the world collecting stories and tales out of legend and having his troupe of players act them out.

Cheers,
Cam
#32
daedavias_dup
Oct 21, 2003 8:47:38 Ah the super powers of Cam Banks have saved the day once again.

One thing which kinda creeps me out is that Gilean is his own father...
#33
zombiegleemax
Oct 29, 2003 12:33:11 Too many possible theories on the Ageless One, I have always seen him as an aspect of Gilean. They are too much alike, refusing to meddle in things, yet preserving the balance by meddling at times. Sounds contradictatory doesn't it? Trust me, it makes sense when you think about it. As far as Astinus' surprise at the book from the Apocalyptic Krynn, I think it had more to do with the fact they had the future book, not so much by the future version of the book. Astinus observes history as it passes, yet Caramon and Tas had a book that Astinus wrote but hadn't written yet. Probably messed with him!!
And who is this Sebastius character? I refuse to buy the 3rd Edition book based more on price than anything. I wasn't impressed by it, quite frankly, and I know 90% of us here could do a better job. And I can say that cause this is America and I can voice my opinion here! ;) I don't have to live with it, cause its not in my house, unlike most other DL material! :bounce:
#34
zombiegleemax
Oct 29, 2003 14:09:37 Sebastius is a character that was introduced in one of the "Best of Tales" anthologies an later a main character in the anyhology "Search for Magic" he directs a troupe of immortal bards that play throughout the different ages of Krynn. He was created by an actor in one of the "Star Trek" series, I don't remember which one. The interestimg thing here is Sebastius first appearance was co-authored by the "Star Trek guy", and I believe Margaret Weiss where he states he is Astinius' brother, and Gileans son. Yet apparently (only becuase I don't own Annotated Legends) Tracy Hickman staes Astinius is Gilean. So one Co creator says one thing, and if memory serves, the other states something totally different? Who are we to believe? Easy answer, Astinius is whoever you, or your d.m. wishes him to be. However, IMHO, a good editor to oversee the entire Dragonlance line (like comic books have), could help take care of some of these inconsistancies. In the meantime lets give credit to Paul Thompson and Tonya Cook for trying to make sense of them, like the whole balif issued they addressed in the "Barbarian Trilogy". They reconciled the whole "elf or kender" dabate in a truly imaginative way.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 daedavias_dup Oct 13, 2003 23:36:42	If you have the Annotated Legends, flip to page 1134. In the bottom left corner sidebar, it in one shape or form states that Astinus IS a god!
#2 talinthas Oct 14, 2003 2:50:19	current theory has it that astinus is the scholar that the high god pulled out of space and time to give the tobril. Basically he becomes gilean, and leaves right at the chaos war's end, and doesnt return, because he is a god. its a self recurcive cycle.
#3 rath_the_ranger Oct 14, 2003 15:56:36	Originally posted by talinthas current theory has it that astinus is the scholar that the high god pulled out of space and time... See, and here I thought He just pulled Astinus out of His A55. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
#4 daedavias_dup Oct 14, 2003 18:06:10	Originally posted by Rath the Ranger See, and here I thought He just pulled Astinus out of His A55. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ' Pulls out +5 Staff of Beating the Crap Out of People WHAM! Serves you right for trying to derail my thread.
#5 zombiegleemax Oct 14, 2003 19:38:02	Astinus is a mystery. On the one hand, odds are good that he is either an avatar or a proxy of Gilean. On the other hand, he needed Raistlin to provide him with the Orb of Present Time Passing to more effectively view events across Krynn. Presumably, he would not need such a thing if he were, in fact, Gilean.
#6 zombiegleemax Oct 14, 2003 20:22:45	sure he would. Astinus is Gilean pre-Ascension, so he does not have the unlimited mind and vision of a true god. On the other hand he is immortal, so my guess is he was created by Gilean to serve as the chronicler of krynn, so that he could eventually ascend to godhood by being pulled back through time to be reborn as Gilean.
#7 zombiegleemax Oct 14, 2003 20:41:45	Astinus is a reflection on Kyrnn's past and present. At the least he is a symbol, at most he is an avatar. I doubt he is a god. Until finishing the War of Souls I would have argued that he is connected to the past and present as any God is connected to good or evil. As such he would have disappeared after the Chaos War because Kyrnn's past also disappeared. Now that the Gods have returned and he is still not present, I have no idea. So much for my thoughts...
#8 zombiegleemax Oct 14, 2003 22:07:17	Astinus is an immortal Astral Dragon.... some say he is the son of gilean as well...
#9 zombiegleemax Oct 14, 2003 23:09:07	I have an Idea!!! . . . . . . Astinus is just Astinus. And that's that.
#10 zombiegleemax Oct 15, 2003 0:33:05	In the legends trillogy Raistlin tells crysania that Astinus is but a mouthpiece for gilean...aka Avatar (Palidine=Fizban)
#11 The_White_Sorcerer Oct 15, 2003 0:46:39	Originally posted by Magus_Extreme Astinus is just Astinus. And that's that. If we accepted that, our lives would be a lot more boring. It's fun thinking of theories about Astinus. So I hope the truth will never be revealed.
#12 rath_the_ranger Oct 15, 2003 15:34:47	Originally posted by Daedavias ' Pulls out +5 Staff of Beating the Crap Out of People WHAM! Serves you right for trying to derail my thread. Pulls out a dose of REALITY and hands it to Daedavias I wasn't trying to derail your thread, I was making light of the post by Talinthas. Although, it would serve you right if I was attempting to derail the thread, since you're just rehashing the same old boring threads we've had here since the beginning of time.
#13 zombiegleemax Oct 16, 2003 21:31:32	Astinus is a mystery. On the one hand, odds are good that he is either an avatar or a proxy of Gilean. On the other hand, he needed Raistlin to provide him with the Orb of Present Time Passing to more effectively view events across Krynn. Presumably, he would not need such a thing if he were, in fact, Gilean. Options: 1- Astinus is Gilean. 2- Astinus is the DM 3- Astinus is something more powerful than any god; Astinus is Time Whatever the case, he has forsaken his power on Krynn so that he would not be tempted to intervene. By doing so, he has put it beyond his ability to interfere and was thus unable to create the Orb on his own.
#14 zombiegleemax Oct 17, 2003 1:45:42	Originally posted by Steel_Wind Whatever the case, he has forsaken his power on Krynn so that he would not be tempted to intervene. By doing so, he has put it beyond his ability to interfere and was thus unable to create the Orb on his own. What I always thought possible was that the Gods are a reflection of those who have contributed to the Dragonlance world. Weis and Hickman are paramount and as such are reflected by Paladine and Tahkisis (I don't know which god reflects which person, though) whilst the High God represents the company Wizards, who bought these Gods together to form Kyrnn. When using this logic, Astinus is more likely a representative of the unfortunate 'new guy at work' who has to retype and format the story into the novels. In concerns to what Steel_Wind has said, that unfortunate 'new guy at work' has proberly quit his job: Wizards Manager: Hey new guy Astinus! Can you format this new book? Astinus: Sigh what is it based on? Wizards Manager: A kender who uses a device of time travelling to go forward into the future. His name is Tas - Astinus: - Tas! Again! Blow this, I'm going home!
#15 zombiegleemax Oct 17, 2003 12:28:49	That's the funniest theory i've ever heard....lol
#16 zombiegleemax Oct 17, 2003 22:46:49	Astinus hasn't returned with the gods?
#17 cam_banks Oct 17, 2003 23:29:49	Originally posted by Jacen Solo 5007 Astinus hasn't returned with the gods? Nope. Cheers, Cam
#18 randpc Oct 18, 2003 9:02:37	Originally posted by Cam Banks Nope. Cheers, Cam Times like this are one of the few times when I'm glad I'm DM'ing all the time and seldom get a chance to play.... with but a word I can magically change history to ensure Astinus is back
#19 zombiegleemax Oct 19, 2003 16:01:18	I'm bringing Astinus back, reincarnated in baby form.
#20 zombiegleemax Oct 20, 2003 13:50:04	According to the novel, "Player's of Gilean" it is revealed that Astinius is the son of Gilean, making himself and his brother Sebastius, demi-gods. A similar thread was started on the novel boards some time ago, if you want more information.
#21 cam_banks Oct 20, 2003 14:16:50	Originally posted by DRAKERYM RAVENSHADOW According to the novel, "Player's of Gilean" it is revealed that Astinius is the son of Gilean, making himself and his brother Sebastius, demi-gods. A similar thread was started on the novel boards some time ago, if you want more information. Of course, that's just what Sebastius says he is. That doesn't mean it's the truth, and in fact I believe Margaret has said this isn't necessarily true. Cheers, Cam
#22 zombiegleemax Oct 20, 2003 14:52:54	True, Cam, those were only the words of Sebastius himself, and since I don't work closely with Sovereign Press, I don't know what Ms. Weiss personal feelings are on the subject. However, she has stated that Soth never went to Ravenloft as well, but the copy of "knight of the Black Rose" on my book shelf says otherwise. My point is, and I hope I'm not sounding condescending, that the only answer we've recieved about Astinius, thus far, is that he is, or is rumored to be Gileans son. Until it is stated otherwise, that is all we have to go by.
#23 shugi Oct 20, 2003 15:06:31	True, Drakerym, but there's one key difference. Sebastius might be lying, falsifying information, etc., whereas Soth was actually transferred to Ravenloft. Who's to say that Sebastius wasn't lying? The cross-point of the Astinus argument is that Annotated Legends indicates that Astinus is either Gilean himself or an avatar.
#24 daedavias_dup Oct 20, 2003 16:01:22	Originally posted by Shugi True, Drakerym, but there's one key difference. Sebastius might be lying, falsifying information, etc., whereas Soth was actually transferred to Ravenloft. Who's to say that Sebastius wasn't lying? That's what my take on it is. Here we have a guy that no one has seen before that claims to be the son of a god and the brother of a man that has existed since the beginning of humanity. So why haven't we seen or heard this guy in the man in ages past, probably because he wasn't born yet. Now, if we had Astinus agreeing with him on all accounts, then there might be some truth to that, however since Astinus has denied comment, we may never know.
#25 zombiegleemax Oct 20, 2003 16:04:16	Yet another good point, and as I have yet to read "Annotated Legends", I shouldn't comment on what it says. better to keep your mouth shut and appear to be a fool, than open your mouth and remove all doubt.
#26 daedavias_dup Oct 20, 2003 16:19:58	Originally posted by DRAKERYM RAVENSHADOW Yet another good point, and as I have yet to read "Annotated Legends", I shouldn't comment on what it says. better to keep your mouth shut and appear to be a fool, than open your mouth and remove all doubt. Wise decision. I thought I transcribed Tracy's words here, but that was at the other boards. Since I don't have my Annotated Legends on me and I don't feel like copying stuff from the other boards, I guess you are out of luck. In a hypnotic voice You will buy the Annotated Legends...You will buy the Annotated Legends...
#27 shugi Oct 20, 2003 18:37:26	You're in luck - I have it right here. You don't really have to go to page 1134, though. Both are Tracy's comments. Page 2: "I believe that Astinus is, indeed, an Avatar of Gilean - if not the personification of Gilean himself." Page 1134: "...the gods that are known in Krynn at this time are highly fallible, which explains Astinus's surprise at the book from the alternate future."
#28 daedavias_dup Oct 20, 2003 21:51:29	Originally posted by Shugi You're in luck - I have it right here. You don't really have to go to page 1134, though. Both are Tracy's comments. Page 2: "I believe that Astinus is, indeed, an Avatar of Gilean - if not the personification of Gilean himself." Page 1134: "...the gods that are known in Krynn at this time are highly fallible, which explains Astinus's surprise at the book from the alternate future." I haven't read through the Annotated Legends completely yet(I have just been picking away at things I want to read again). The phrase I brought before was one that just caught my eye.
#29 zombiegleemax Oct 20, 2003 23:40:16	Ok now that the quotes from "Annotated Legends" has been posted, I feel I can comment. Mr. Hickman states that he believes Astinius to be an avatar of Gilean, yet he also echoed the comments about Soth I posted above. Now are we to only believe the words of two creators of this world? And if so does that mean that all the time spent reading and money spent buying all the books in the saga was wasted? Since Weis and Hickman never once mentioned the Knights of the Divine Hammer, we should believe that the events in the Istar Trilogy are a kender tale? I mean here is a whole organization never mentioned before, much like the character of Sebastius, so should we take their statements and exploits be taken with the same grain of salt as Sebastius' statements? This is what I love so much about DL, the passion it inspires in its fans to have a spirited debate, about something that has no right or wrong answers. Especially about a charcter like Astinius, who regardless of whether he has divine status or not, is not as central to the saga as say Raistlin,Sturm or Tanis.
#30 zombiegleemax Oct 21, 2003 3:43:27	But if you really want to hear from someone who KNOWS about such things, I actually met Astinus once. I was in Palanthas during harvest festival and somehow found myself in this wonderful magic shop holding a golden wand. I'd had a bit to drink the night before, but I can usually hold my liquor fairly well, so I think I was drugged by gypsys and forced to entertain an army of goblins who were demanding a gypsy sacrifice or something horrible like that, it's all a blur. You have to watch out about those gypsys. Anyway, so I had this wand, and a wizened old lunatic comes running out from behind the counter yelling at me. I swear, merchants in Palanthas mustn't want to sell anything to anybody because all they ever do is yell at me when I try to browse. He was saying something about the thing being dangerous and "command word" this, "magic missle" that, and I was going to say, "Well, shoot, I'm just looking at it!" and put it down, but all I got out was "Well, shoot" and the next thing I know there's a big hole in the roof. Where was I? Oh yeah, so he grabs the wand and points it at me! I actually think he was going to use it on me! But I got out of there pretty fast and ran down a few blocks and jumped in an open window because you never know how crazy a crazy wizard is. And that's a very good moral for this story. But anyway, the window belonged to a library and the library belonged to the city of Palanthas but they let Astinus have it 'cause nobody wants him telling where they've been spending their nights or the tax money. Well, he was about to throw me out, but I immediately asked if he was Astinus because I'd heard a great deal about him and suggested he should try some Velination tea that I picked up in Nordmaar. He brightened considerably, well, not really, but he did agree and in the conversation that ensued, that topic actually came up. He, Astinus, is one of the alvin tars for Gilean. His brother Sebastius is another alvin tar as well, but he's all artsy and roams around with a bunch of actors. We were having a great time, well, not really, when he got grouchy about my peering too closely at this globe thing on his desk. I said I was sorry and he explained that an old friend of his had given it to him. "A majere alvin tar" he said it was, but then he told me he had to get back to his work and I, supposing that the wizard outside had gotten lost in his lunacy, thought it was probably safe to leave. So that's it. True story! Love, Haldon
#31 cam_banks Oct 21, 2003 8:35:19	To continue with my clever Astinus-is-taken-back-to-be-Gilean theory, let's say that the recursive loop in time that is Gilean required some kind of back-up plan or alternative that would ensure in Gilean's existence. The High God reached through time, snatched Astinus from his chambers in the Great Library right at the point of Chaos' defeat, and bestowed the powers of a god upon him. He then provided Gilean with the Tobril and all knowledge. Gilean recognized that he would need to ensure that Astinus would come about and acquire the connection to the River of Time that he would need in order to provide the High God with the mortal template for himself. Gilean engineered Astinus' birth, bestowed upon him immortality and a talent for historical record-keeping, and waited. At one point, Raistlin (as Fistandantilus) arrived and gave Gilean the globe that he used to view all events across the world, which is something Gilean may also have counted on. As a fail-safe, Gilean also engineered another individual's birth, Sebastius. It was Sebastius' role in this endless loop of time to replace Astinus in the event of Astinus' death by misadventure or assault. Gilean knew that if Astinus died, he himself would cease to exist, as the High God wouldn't have anybody to bring back through time. Thus, gifting Sebastius with the same immortality and hunger for knowledge that Astinus has, he made sure that if Astinus couldn't become Gilean, Sebastius would. As it happens, Sebastius never becomes Gilean, as Astinus lived all the way up to the point where the High God plucked him out of the River of Time. So, Sebastius continues to do what he's done for centuries - travel about the world collecting stories and tales out of legend and having his troupe of players act them out. Cheers, Cam
#32 daedavias_dup Oct 21, 2003 8:47:38	Ah the super powers of Cam Banks have saved the day once again. One thing which kinda creeps me out is that Gilean is his own father...
#33 zombiegleemax Oct 29, 2003 12:33:11	Too many possible theories on the Ageless One, I have always seen him as an aspect of Gilean. They are too much alike, refusing to meddle in things, yet preserving the balance by meddling at times. Sounds contradictatory doesn't it? Trust me, it makes sense when you think about it. As far as Astinus' surprise at the book from the Apocalyptic Krynn, I think it had more to do with the fact they had the future book, not so much by the future version of the book. Astinus observes history as it passes, yet Caramon and Tas had a book that Astinus wrote but hadn't written yet. Probably messed with him!! And who is this Sebastius character? I refuse to buy the 3rd Edition book based more on price than anything. I wasn't impressed by it, quite frankly, and I know 90% of us here could do a better job. And I can say that cause this is America and I can voice my opinion here! ;) I don't have to live with it, cause its not in my house, unlike most other DL material! :bounce:
#34 zombiegleemax Oct 29, 2003 14:09:37	Sebastius is a character that was introduced in one of the "Best of Tales" anthologies an later a main character in the anyhology "Search for Magic" he directs a troupe of immortal bards that play throughout the different ages of Krynn. He was created by an actor in one of the "Star Trek" series, I don't remember which one. The interestimg thing here is Sebastius first appearance was co-authored by the "Star Trek guy", and I believe Margaret Weiss where he states he is Astinius' brother, and Gileans son. Yet apparently (only becuase I don't own Annotated Legends) Tracy Hickman staes Astinius is Gilean. So one Co creator says one thing, and if memory serves, the other states something totally different? Who are we to believe? Easy answer, Astinius is whoever you, or your d.m. wishes him to be. However, IMHO, a good editor to oversee the entire Dragonlance line (like comic books have), could help take care of some of these inconsistancies. In the meantime lets give credit to Paul Thompson and Tonya Cook for trying to make sense of them, like the whole balif issued they addressed in the "Barbarian Trilogy". They reconciled the whole "elf or kender" dabate in a truly imaginative way.