Alignments of +- Energy Planes - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Alignments of +- Energy Planes

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Oct 14, 2003 6:26:07 On aother thread, (found here , some people started debating about the Alignments of the Positive and Negative Energy Planes. I said I was going to start a thread over here, because you guys would be the best people to educate the poor saps who think that the Positive Energy Plane is Good-aligned, and that the Negative is Evil.
#2
zombiegleemax
Oct 14, 2003 6:33:48 I have myself always seem the elemental planes as neutral aligned. Sure, some might argue that certain plane inhabitants are evil (most notably the efreet from the Plane of Fire) or good, but as a whole they obey to no alignment, they are merely the pure essence of their material. And as their name say, the positive and negative planes merely represent different states of energy, not good or evil.
#3
zombiegleemax
Oct 14, 2003 8:01:52 although the inner planes themselves are not inherently aligned as the outer planes are, some are associated with certain alignment traits. Fire is associated with destruction an evil, water with change and chaos, earth with solidity and law. You get my drift.

The positive energy plane is associated with life, healing and growth. The negative energy plane with dying, undeath and wounding.
It makes sense to associate the positive plane with 'good' and the negative plane with 'evil'. In the end, the plane does not make this distinction, though.
#4
zombiegleemax
Oct 14, 2003 9:54:01
Originally posted by puk
although the inner planes themselves are not inherently aligned as the outer planes are, some are associated with certain alignment traits. Fire is associated with destruction an evil, water with change and chaos, earth with solidity and law. You get my drift.

The positive energy plane is associated with life, healing and growth. The negative energy plane with dying, undeath and wounding.
It makes sense to associate the positive plane with 'good' and the negative plane with 'evil'. In the end, the plane does not make this distinction, though.

You have a good point, but I think it's slightly different: the planes are not associated with any alignment, but creatures of certain alignments tend to associate with certain planes. The land itself doesn't care. Undead need the negative energy plane, or are at least drawn to it. Creatures with an appetite for destruction find the elemental plane of fire to be a place to their liking. But the planes themselves are not aligned.

I'd compare it with weapons. You can create a weapon with an alignment, but then you would have something comparable to an outer plane. A nonmagical weapon is just a weapon: unaligned, not even true neutral. Even if you would make a dark, fanged dagger with mean hooks that can rip your skin off in small shreds, you still would not have an evil weapon as long as it was not magical - even though using it might be an evil act. The same goes for poison. No matter how deadly it is, no detect evil ability will detect poison, because regular poison is not evil in itself. That's what the inner planes are like: deadly (most of them at least), but not evil. Not even the negative energy plane.
#5
sildatorak
Oct 14, 2003 14:15:25 Another good comparison is with lycanthropes. Werewolves are evil, but wolves are not. It is not some innate quality of the wolf that yields an evil lycanthrope, just a societal perception.
#6
lord_of_the_ninth_02
Oct 14, 2003 16:08:22 I can't remember whose sig this is from, but "Positive energy isn't good because it can make you explode"
#7
zombiegleemax
Oct 14, 2003 18:43:49 Morals and ethics are defined by a concious mind. The outer planes are manifestations of ethical concepts, thus they are aligned. (Interesting thing to ponder: Without any life anywhere in the multiverse, would the outer planes exist? I would posit no, and that it's kind of a moot point.)

The inner planes are not manifestations of ethical concepts, nor do they hold any concious minds of their own, therefore they are amoral (compare: immoral). Fire can't be evil, because it doesn't think. It's just a chemical reaction. Water is, it can't make moral judgements, heck, it can't even consider them. Positive energy and negative energy, while desirable for various forms of life/unlife, are not in themselves thinking entities, so they can't be morally aligned. It just so happens that most things that require negative energy happen to be labelled "evil" and most things that require positive energy happen to be labelled "good", hence some people seem to attribute those qualities to the planes too.

Evil living creatures are still harmed by negative energy, and good aligned undead are still harmed by positive energy. Regular dead things don't require either, and thus along the positive-neutral-negative energy axis, are neutral. Random tangent: I think maybe we need an inner plane of non-life energy. Something neither positive, nor negative, and wholly boring.
#8
sildatorak
Oct 14, 2003 22:43:19
Originally posted by mrgoat
Random tangent: I think maybe we need an inner plane of non-life energy. Something neither positive, nor negative, and wholly boring.

They're called fire, lightning, and radiance ;)
#9
incenjucar
Oct 15, 2003 0:42:11 Ahh, yes, "The Inner Plane". Something I've posited for some years now..

If you consider the assumed 'shape' of the inner planes... a sphere... somewhere within them it all converges.. or.. pours out from.

My suggestion is that the heart of existance, the one true source of all, lies within, in the Inner Plane. Or any other number of possibilities. It is.. rather difficult to assume.

But whatever it is, I'd love to discover it.
#10
zombiegleemax
Oct 15, 2003 3:21:19
They're called fire, lightning, and radiance

No, those aren't really neutral life-energy neutral, they've got energy from both, but it's making them sad.
#11
incenjucar
Oct 15, 2003 3:48:37 Lightning and Radiance are quasi-elemental planes that are keyed to positive as much as air and fire.

Fire is the only one of those mentioned that is energetically neutral.
#12
sildatorak
Oct 15, 2003 10:07:31 Sorry, I had a big ol' dose of glass of smart aleck for breakfast when I posted that last one. If you want a living, yet neutral, energy plane, maybe try quitnessence.

Musée Arcane-the ancient planes

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Oct 14, 2003 6:26:07	On aother thread, (found here , some people started debating about the Alignments of the Positive and Negative Energy Planes. I said I was going to start a thread over here, because you guys would be the best people to educate the poor saps who think that the Positive Energy Plane is Good-aligned, and that the Negative is Evil.
#2 zombiegleemax Oct 14, 2003 6:33:48	I have myself always seem the elemental planes as neutral aligned. Sure, some might argue that certain plane inhabitants are evil (most notably the efreet from the Plane of Fire) or good, but as a whole they obey to no alignment, they are merely the pure essence of their material. And as their name say, the positive and negative planes merely represent different states of energy, not good or evil.
#3 zombiegleemax Oct 14, 2003 8:01:52	although the inner planes themselves are not inherently aligned as the outer planes are, some are associated with certain alignment traits. Fire is associated with destruction an evil, water with change and chaos, earth with solidity and law. You get my drift. The positive energy plane is associated with life, healing and growth. The negative energy plane with dying, undeath and wounding. It makes sense to associate the positive plane with 'good' and the negative plane with 'evil'. In the end, the plane does not make this distinction, though.
#4 zombiegleemax Oct 14, 2003 9:54:01	Originally posted by puk although the inner planes themselves are not inherently aligned as the outer planes are, some are associated with certain alignment traits. Fire is associated with destruction an evil, water with change and chaos, earth with solidity and law. You get my drift. The positive energy plane is associated with life, healing and growth. The negative energy plane with dying, undeath and wounding. It makes sense to associate the positive plane with 'good' and the negative plane with 'evil'. In the end, the plane does not make this distinction, though. You have a good point, but I think it's slightly different: the planes are not associated with any alignment, but creatures of certain alignments tend to associate with certain planes. The land itself doesn't care. Undead need the negative energy plane, or are at least drawn to it. Creatures with an appetite for destruction find the elemental plane of fire to be a place to their liking. But the planes themselves are not aligned. I'd compare it with weapons. You can create a weapon with an alignment, but then you would have something comparable to an outer plane. A nonmagical weapon is just a weapon: unaligned, not even true neutral. Even if you would make a dark, fanged dagger with mean hooks that can rip your skin off in small shreds, you still would not have an evil weapon as long as it was not magical - even though using it might be an evil act. The same goes for poison. No matter how deadly it is, no detect evil ability will detect poison, because regular poison is not evil in itself. That's what the inner planes are like: deadly (most of them at least), but not evil. Not even the negative energy plane.
#5 sildatorak Oct 14, 2003 14:15:25	Another good comparison is with lycanthropes. Werewolves are evil, but wolves are not. It is not some innate quality of the wolf that yields an evil lycanthrope, just a societal perception.
#6 lord_of_the_ninth_02 Oct 14, 2003 16:08:22	I can't remember whose sig this is from, but "Positive energy isn't good because it can make you explode"
#7 zombiegleemax Oct 14, 2003 18:43:49	Morals and ethics are defined by a concious mind. The outer planes are manifestations of ethical concepts, thus they are aligned. (Interesting thing to ponder: Without any life anywhere in the multiverse, would the outer planes exist? I would posit no, and that it's kind of a moot point.) The inner planes are not manifestations of ethical concepts, nor do they hold any concious minds of their own, therefore they are amoral (compare: immoral). Fire can't be evil, because it doesn't think. It's just a chemical reaction. Water is, it can't make moral judgements, heck, it can't even consider them. Positive energy and negative energy, while desirable for various forms of life/unlife, are not in themselves thinking entities, so they can't be morally aligned. It just so happens that most things that require negative energy happen to be labelled "evil" and most things that require positive energy happen to be labelled "good", hence some people seem to attribute those qualities to the planes too. Evil living creatures are still harmed by negative energy, and good aligned undead are still harmed by positive energy. Regular dead things don't require either, and thus along the positive-neutral-negative energy axis, are neutral. Random tangent: I think maybe we need an inner plane of non-life energy. Something neither positive, nor negative, and wholly boring.
#8 sildatorak Oct 14, 2003 22:43:19	Originally posted by mrgoat Random tangent: I think maybe we need an inner plane of non-life energy. Something neither positive, nor negative, and wholly boring. They're called fire, lightning, and radiance ;)
#9 incenjucar Oct 15, 2003 0:42:11	Ahh, yes, "The Inner Plane". Something I've posited for some years now.. If you consider the assumed 'shape' of the inner planes... a sphere... somewhere within them it all converges.. or.. pours out from. My suggestion is that the heart of existance, the one true source of all, lies within, in the Inner Plane. Or any other number of possibilities. It is.. rather difficult to assume. But whatever it is, I'd love to discover it.
#10 zombiegleemax Oct 15, 2003 3:21:19	They're called fire, lightning, and radiance No, those aren't really neutral life-energy neutral, they've got energy from both, but it's making them sad.
#11 incenjucar Oct 15, 2003 3:48:37	Lightning and Radiance are quasi-elemental planes that are keyed to positive as much as air and fire. Fire is the only one of those mentioned that is energetically neutral.
#12 sildatorak Oct 15, 2003 10:07:31	Sorry, I had a big ol' dose of glass of smart aleck for breakfast when I posted that last one. If you want a living, yet neutral, energy plane, maybe try quitnessence. Musée Arcane-the ancient planes