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Raistlin alive and kicking?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
spike81101
Oct 21, 2003 7:49:53 Hello everyone!

I was just wondering, is Raistlin really dead? At the end of legends takisis grabbed him and it is said that Paladine saved him from eternal torture and let him have peace. What does that mean now that Paladine and Takisiss are gone? I realize that he may have "died", takisiss crushing his body in the abyss, but with permission of the gods he did come back, although without his magic. He came back again and helped Tas find the past. What's to prevent him from a side trek to the abyss, finding his old body and casting limited wish for reincaration or even a wish for resurrection? Sure there's that pesky problem of the gods of magic not granting him power anymore, but isn't it possible he find sorcery? He's there with the gods, watching everything, and in the abyss he's not on Krynn so he's not really in the gods territory. All he needed as 2 rounds or so in the abyss, that could have been done at any time...

Feel free to discuss, this is indeed what did happen in my campaign, although he cannot step foot on Krynn for more than a minute or so, then the gods are alerted.
#2
The_White_Sorcerer
Oct 21, 2003 8:25:13
Originally posted by spike81101
I was just wondering, is Raistlin really dead?

Yes, and that's the way he should remain. He is currently adventuring with his companions in the afterlife.
#3
daedavias_dup
Oct 21, 2003 8:25:42
Originally posted by spike81101
Hello everyone!

I was just wondering, is Raistlin really dead? At the end of legends takisis grabbed him and it is said that Paladine saved him from eternal torture and let him have peace. What does that mean now that Paladine and Takisiss are gone? I realize that he may have "died", takisiss crushing his body in the abyss, but with permission of the gods he did come back, although without his magic. He came back again and helped Tas find the past. What's to prevent him from a side trek to the abyss, finding his old body and casting limited wish for reincaration or even a wish for resurrection? Sure there's that pesky problem of the gods of magic not granting him power anymore, but isn't it possible he find sorcery? He's there with the gods, watching everything, and in the abyss he's not on Krynn so he's not really in the gods territory. All he needed as 2 rounds or so in the abyss, that could have been done at any time...

Feel free to discuss, this is indeed what did happen in my campaign, although he cannot step foot on Krynn for more than a minute or so, then the gods are alerted.

Raistlin has departed the world and is NEVER coming back. He is content with being dead, as his services are no longer needed.
#4
randpc
Oct 21, 2003 8:43:22 Raistlin has departed the world with his old comrades to adventure into the realm of the afterlife.

As for whether that means he's dead, I'm unsure... and frankly death has never stopped him from returning before so I doubt Weis would have much trouble brining him back if she so desired.

Similarly he's relatively easily returned from a DM's perspective if you wish.
#5
zombiegleemax
Oct 21, 2003 8:45:29 The Master of the Past and of the Present is gone to his reward.
#6
zombiegleemax
Oct 21, 2003 12:23:12 let the old man stay dead..... come on, now... besides, if he came back, caramon would have a fit. and raistlin'll never break that promise to his brother. so he's DEAD. D-E-A-D, dead.
#7
spike81101
Oct 21, 2003 14:10:22 Wow, tons of "no"s on this one huh. Are there any yes votes out there?
#8
randpc
Oct 21, 2003 14:10:26
Originally posted by Magus_Extreme
let the old man stay dead..... come on, now... besides, if he came back, caramon would have a fit. and raistlin'll never break that promise to his brother. so he's DEAD. D-E-A-D, dead.

The fanbase will never let him die... so long as the DragonLance novel line continues you will always have fans dreaming of ways to see him return.

As for Raistlin never breaking that promise to his brother... well, personally I've never found Raistlin to be particularly concerned with how his brother feels.

Originally posted by spike81101
Are there any yes votes out there?

If you want it to happen in your campaign then it happens... one of the benefits of being a DM

So long as you want him alive then he's alive.
I doubt you'll see Weis write anything more on him any time soon however.
#9
spike81101
Oct 21, 2003 15:59:21 I just felt the way he left (in the war of souls), was not really lame, but just...I don't know, too easy maybe? I just keep thinking about that scene when Camaran dies (is dying) and is saying "Raist, he's supposed to be here, where's Rast?"
#10
carteeg
Oct 21, 2003 19:22:14 Here is a yes vote.

Yes, Raistlin is alive....

in the next world.

MWAHAHAHAHA :D
Hahahaharharhar...tee-hee.......phew.

.
.
.

*sigh*
#11
zombiegleemax
Oct 21, 2003 20:38:31
Originally posted by RandPC
The fanbase will never let him die... so long as the DragonLance novel line continues you will always have fans dreaming of ways to see him return.

As for Raistlin never breaking that promise to his brother... well, personally I've never found Raistlin to be particularly concerned with how his brother feels.

Actually, Caramon was the only thing raistlin actually gave a damn about beyond power. The only reason why he shirked his brother in Legends is because fistindantelus was manipulating him. It was always said that raistlin loved one thing more than magic: his brother.
#12
randpc
Oct 21, 2003 22:56:45
Originally posted by Magus_Extreme
Actually, Caramon was the only thing raistlin actually gave a damn about beyond power. The only reason why he shirked his brother in Legends is because fistindantelus was manipulating him. It was always said that raistlin loved one thing more than magic: his brother.

Perhaps so, but in my mind Raistlin's lust for power would overcome any love for his brother.
That love is always there, albeit hidden deeply inside but if it came to his brother or power I think he's displayed numerous times what his choice would be.
#13
zombiegleemax
Oct 21, 2003 23:39:01 Raistlin is dead and will remain so, in whatever form that takes. The character has run his course, and the DL timeline has moved on with his aid.

As far as people thinking he'd break his promise, not going to happen, he waited a LONG time for Caramon, he's redeemed himself, and that's the story arc of the character, from darkness to light in a way.

Now that said, there is a way I could see him coming back...

Against his will by someones power, godly or otherwise. Does this mean I think it will happen? No. But that option is a feasible one if done properly.
#14
spike81101
Oct 22, 2003 7:27:40 Thanks to all for your comments, I've found an overwhelming "no" response to which I can agree with on many points. If you want to continue on the topc of "Would Raistlin break his promise?" Please do so.

Actually, Caramon was the only thing raistlin actually gave a damn about beyond power. The only reason why he shirked his brother in Legends is because fistindantelus was manipulating him. It was always said that raistlin loved one thing more than magic: his brother.

Who did Raistlin kill during his test of high sorcery? It stems back a lot further than legends.
#15
palin_the_wizard
Oct 22, 2003 8:09:43 Let Raistlin have his rest.

As for the Test, Raistlin was overcome by jealousy.
#16
brimstone
Oct 22, 2003 13:59:53
Originally posted by Magus_Extreme
It was always said that raistlin loved one thing more than magic: his brother.

Um...not to refute your information but...who "always said" that? I've never heard it before.
#17
j0llyblackgiant
Oct 22, 2003 18:51:48 if he loved his brother more than magic why did he choose magic over his brother time and time again... in the end he realized how much he loved his brother but he never really seems to love him more than his magic... also he isnt dead... he was never killed he just went to whereever spirtis go to, to be with his friends... doesnt mean he wont come back if some author feels like it... i mean yes many of us understand that raist has done enough in this world but hey if some one feels like he will be back...
#18
shugi
Oct 22, 2003 19:50:55 Takhisis had Raistlin at her mercy in the Abyss for roughly 27 years, don't you think she would have killed him at least once? His spirit can refuse resurrections in 3E, but if he was overconfident or just spiteful he could have accepted them and died multiple times. Of course, WotC or an enterprising author can bring back Raistlin (or Tika who also died "off-camera") if they want to, but let's give the Dark Queen some credit. She killed him.

Despite this, there are 47 reasons why Raistlin could return if that's what you, an author, or the story wants. Clones, contingencies, undeath, him simply abandoning his friends and coming back to Krynn, etc.

I must admit, an undead Raist is an intriguing notion...
#19
zombiegleemax
Oct 22, 2003 23:07:16 Actually, no, Raistlin was not at Takhisis's mercy for 27 years. Caramon was correct in saying that Raistlin was taken up to Heaven(well, not heaven, but you know what I mean). He was sorta the Abyss for the short story The Legacy, but that was DAlamar's doing, and he was supposed to be an illusion, although it actually was the real Raistlin. He was also in the Abyss in Summer Flame, but that was because everybody was in the Abyss, even living people.
#20
zombiegleemax
Oct 23, 2003 2:07:08 In my campaign it has been pretty difficult to get rid of good old Raistlin, simply because my players want him around. However, I am not one to cater to all my players needs but in this case I have made an exception.......so to speak.

I stole the idea from the Greyhawk module "Vecna lives" by David "Zeb" Cook (I think) and combined it with the story of "Raistlin's room" from DoSF. Anyway, mages leave magical items in Raistlin's room (Inn of The Last Home) for a period of time, and when they return to pick up their belongings they discover that the magic has been boosted. Now, I interpret this as worship, which brings me back to Vecna. Vecna is pretty much inactive, just like Raistlin, but over the decades he has gathered energies from worshippers throughout the world, effectively allowing to become a demigod.

In my campaign the same thing is happening to Raistlin. However, I have absolutely no intention of bringing him back, regardless of how popular he is among my players. So, in a thousand years or so he may emerge as a demigod, but since I have no intentions of ever moving the timeline that far ahead, he will never be in my campaign.

I realise this idea may goes against a lot of the Dragonlance paradigms, but I feel it works pretty well in my campaign.

Comments and criticism is most welcome.
#21
zombiegleemax
Oct 23, 2003 11:43:42
Originally posted by spike81101
Who did Raistlin kill during his test of high sorcery? It stems back a lot further than legends.

you have to remember who he let help him in the test for high sorcery as well. The Fistandantilus possession began there. Want true proof of his love for his brother, just read Dragons of a Vanished Moon. But it's very arguable which love is greater, so i doubt we all can come to a common agreement.
#22
spike81101
Oct 24, 2003 8:57:39 I myself can't even decide whether or not he loved his brother or magic more. Why, because Raistlin himself didn't even know. It was a toss up for him and situational for who won that #1 spot. Obviously he killed his brother because of jelousy while taking his test. Jelousy over magic. That's one of the internal struggles that made him such a intrigueing character.
#23
zombiegleemax
Oct 29, 2003 20:48:43 I have the all purpose solution for bringing Raist back. Play during the War of the Lance. No tricks, no convoluted plots to fulfill. I have started DMing game in that period, where the Heroes of the Lance are the background and the PC's are in the spotlight. Will they meet the Heroes? Yeah someday, for sure at the Temple of Neraka, but perhaps before then too. I have let the PC's lead themselves by the nose, giving them carrots to follow if they wish. Raistlin is most arguably the most popular character in DL and there will always be a demand for him. But how many times can you repeat the same sad, tired story? When the War of Souls ended, so did an era. Let them stay dead when that time comes, and if you wish to 'resurrect' them, pick up one of the older books and relive it all over again.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 spike81101 Oct 21, 2003 7:49:53	Hello everyone! I was just wondering, is Raistlin really dead? At the end of legends takisis grabbed him and it is said that Paladine saved him from eternal torture and let him have peace. What does that mean now that Paladine and Takisiss are gone? I realize that he may have "died", takisiss crushing his body in the abyss, but with permission of the gods he did come back, although without his magic. He came back again and helped Tas find the past. What's to prevent him from a side trek to the abyss, finding his old body and casting limited wish for reincaration or even a wish for resurrection? Sure there's that pesky problem of the gods of magic not granting him power anymore, but isn't it possible he find sorcery? He's there with the gods, watching everything, and in the abyss he's not on Krynn so he's not really in the gods territory. All he needed as 2 rounds or so in the abyss, that could have been done at any time... Feel free to discuss, this is indeed what did happen in my campaign, although he cannot step foot on Krynn for more than a minute or so, then the gods are alerted.
#2 The_White_Sorcerer Oct 21, 2003 8:25:13	Originally posted by spike81101 I was just wondering, is Raistlin really dead? Yes, and that's the way he should remain. He is currently adventuring with his companions in the afterlife.
#3 daedavias_dup Oct 21, 2003 8:25:42	Originally posted by spike81101 Hello everyone! I was just wondering, is Raistlin really dead? At the end of legends takisis grabbed him and it is said that Paladine saved him from eternal torture and let him have peace. What does that mean now that Paladine and Takisiss are gone? I realize that he may have "died", takisiss crushing his body in the abyss, but with permission of the gods he did come back, although without his magic. He came back again and helped Tas find the past. What's to prevent him from a side trek to the abyss, finding his old body and casting limited wish for reincaration or even a wish for resurrection? Sure there's that pesky problem of the gods of magic not granting him power anymore, but isn't it possible he find sorcery? He's there with the gods, watching everything, and in the abyss he's not on Krynn so he's not really in the gods territory. All he needed as 2 rounds or so in the abyss, that could have been done at any time... Feel free to discuss, this is indeed what did happen in my campaign, although he cannot step foot on Krynn for more than a minute or so, then the gods are alerted. Raistlin has departed the world and is NEVER coming back. He is content with being dead, as his services are no longer needed.
#4 randpc Oct 21, 2003 8:43:22	Raistlin has departed the world with his old comrades to adventure into the realm of the afterlife. As for whether that means he's dead, I'm unsure... and frankly death has never stopped him from returning before so I doubt Weis would have much trouble brining him back if she so desired. Similarly he's relatively easily returned from a DM's perspective if you wish.
#5 zombiegleemax Oct 21, 2003 8:45:29	The Master of the Past and of the Present is gone to his reward.
#6 zombiegleemax Oct 21, 2003 12:23:12	let the old man stay dead..... come on, now... besides, if he came back, caramon would have a fit. and raistlin'll never break that promise to his brother. so he's DEAD. D-E-A-D, dead.
#7 spike81101 Oct 21, 2003 14:10:22	Wow, tons of "no"s on this one huh. Are there any yes votes out there?
#8 randpc Oct 21, 2003 14:10:26	Originally posted by Magus_Extreme let the old man stay dead..... come on, now... besides, if he came back, caramon would have a fit. and raistlin'll never break that promise to his brother. so he's DEAD. D-E-A-D, dead. The fanbase will never let him die... so long as the DragonLance novel line continues you will always have fans dreaming of ways to see him return. As for Raistlin never breaking that promise to his brother... well, personally I've never found Raistlin to be particularly concerned with how his brother feels. Originally posted by spike81101 Are there any yes votes out there? If you want it to happen in your campaign then it happens... one of the benefits of being a DM So long as you want him alive then he's alive. I doubt you'll see Weis write anything more on him any time soon however.
#9 spike81101 Oct 21, 2003 15:59:21	I just felt the way he left (in the war of souls), was not really lame, but just...I don't know, too easy maybe? I just keep thinking about that scene when Camaran dies (is dying) and is saying "Raist, he's supposed to be here, where's Rast?"
#10 carteeg Oct 21, 2003 19:22:14	Here is a yes vote. Yes, Raistlin is alive.... in the next world. MWAHAHAHAHA :D Hahahaharharhar...tee-hee.......phew. . . . sigh
#11 zombiegleemax Oct 21, 2003 20:38:31	Originally posted by RandPC The fanbase will never let him die... so long as the DragonLance novel line continues you will always have fans dreaming of ways to see him return. As for Raistlin never breaking that promise to his brother... well, personally I've never found Raistlin to be particularly concerned with how his brother feels. Actually, Caramon was the only thing raistlin actually gave a damn about beyond power. The only reason why he shirked his brother in Legends is because fistindantelus was manipulating him. It was always said that raistlin loved one thing more than magic: his brother.
#12 randpc Oct 21, 2003 22:56:45	Originally posted by Magus_Extreme Actually, Caramon was the only thing raistlin actually gave a damn about beyond power. The only reason why he shirked his brother in Legends is because fistindantelus was manipulating him. It was always said that raistlin loved one thing more than magic: his brother. Perhaps so, but in my mind Raistlin's lust for power would overcome any love for his brother. That love is always there, albeit hidden deeply inside but if it came to his brother or power I think he's displayed numerous times what his choice would be.
#13 zombiegleemax Oct 21, 2003 23:39:01	Raistlin is dead and will remain so, in whatever form that takes. The character has run his course, and the DL timeline has moved on with his aid. As far as people thinking he'd break his promise, not going to happen, he waited a LONG time for Caramon, he's redeemed himself, and that's the story arc of the character, from darkness to light in a way. Now that said, there is a way I could see him coming back... Against his will by someones power, godly or otherwise. Does this mean I think it will happen? No. But that option is a feasible one if done properly.
#14 spike81101 Oct 22, 2003 7:27:40	Thanks to all for your comments, I've found an overwhelming "no" response to which I can agree with on many points. If you want to continue on the topc of "Would Raistlin break his promise?" Please do so. Actually, Caramon was the only thing raistlin actually gave a damn about beyond power. The only reason why he shirked his brother in Legends is because fistindantelus was manipulating him. It was always said that raistlin loved one thing more than magic: his brother. Who did Raistlin kill during his test of high sorcery? It stems back a lot further than legends.
#15 palin_the_wizard Oct 22, 2003 8:09:43	Let Raistlin have his rest. As for the Test, Raistlin was overcome by jealousy.
#16 brimstone Oct 22, 2003 13:59:53	Originally posted by Magus_Extreme It was always said that raistlin loved one thing more than magic: his brother. Um...not to refute your information but...who "always said" that? I've never heard it before.
#17 j0llyblackgiant Oct 22, 2003 18:51:48	if he loved his brother more than magic why did he choose magic over his brother time and time again... in the end he realized how much he loved his brother but he never really seems to love him more than his magic... also he isnt dead... he was never killed he just went to whereever spirtis go to, to be with his friends... doesnt mean he wont come back if some author feels like it... i mean yes many of us understand that raist has done enough in this world but hey if some one feels like he will be back...
#18 shugi Oct 22, 2003 19:50:55	Takhisis had Raistlin at her mercy in the Abyss for roughly 27 years, don't you think she would have killed him at least once? His spirit can refuse resurrections in 3E, but if he was overconfident or just spiteful he could have accepted them and died multiple times. Of course, WotC or an enterprising author can bring back Raistlin (or Tika who also died "off-camera") if they want to, but let's give the Dark Queen some credit. She killed him. Despite this, there are 47 reasons why Raistlin could return if that's what you, an author, or the story wants. Clones, contingencies, undeath, him simply abandoning his friends and coming back to Krynn, etc. I must admit, an undead Raist is an intriguing notion...
#19 zombiegleemax Oct 22, 2003 23:07:16	Actually, no, Raistlin was not at Takhisis's mercy for 27 years. Caramon was correct in saying that Raistlin was taken up to Heaven(well, not heaven, but you know what I mean). He was sorta the Abyss for the short story The Legacy, but that was DAlamar's doing, and he was supposed to be an illusion, although it actually was the real Raistlin. He was also in the Abyss in Summer Flame, but that was because everybody was in the Abyss, even living people.
#20 zombiegleemax Oct 23, 2003 2:07:08	In my campaign it has been pretty difficult to get rid of good old Raistlin, simply because my players want him around. However, I am not one to cater to all my players needs but in this case I have made an exception.......so to speak. I stole the idea from the Greyhawk module "Vecna lives" by David "Zeb" Cook (I think) and combined it with the story of "Raistlin's room" from DoSF. Anyway, mages leave magical items in Raistlin's room (Inn of The Last Home) for a period of time, and when they return to pick up their belongings they discover that the magic has been boosted. Now, I interpret this as worship, which brings me back to Vecna. Vecna is pretty much inactive, just like Raistlin, but over the decades he has gathered energies from worshippers throughout the world, effectively allowing to become a demigod. In my campaign the same thing is happening to Raistlin. However, I have absolutely no intention of bringing him back, regardless of how popular he is among my players. So, in a thousand years or so he may emerge as a demigod, but since I have no intentions of ever moving the timeline that far ahead, he will never be in my campaign. I realise this idea may goes against a lot of the Dragonlance paradigms, but I feel it works pretty well in my campaign. Comments and criticism is most welcome.
#21 zombiegleemax Oct 23, 2003 11:43:42	Originally posted by spike81101 Who did Raistlin kill during his test of high sorcery? It stems back a lot further than legends. you have to remember who he let help him in the test for high sorcery as well. The Fistandantilus possession began there. Want true proof of his love for his brother, just read Dragons of a Vanished Moon. But it's very arguable which love is greater, so i doubt we all can come to a common agreement.
#22 spike81101 Oct 24, 2003 8:57:39	I myself can't even decide whether or not he loved his brother or magic more. Why, because Raistlin himself didn't even know. It was a toss up for him and situational for who won that #1 spot. Obviously he killed his brother because of jelousy while taking his test. Jelousy over magic. That's one of the internal struggles that made him such a intrigueing character.
#23 zombiegleemax Oct 29, 2003 20:48:43	I have the all purpose solution for bringing Raist back. Play during the War of the Lance. No tricks, no convoluted plots to fulfill. I have started DMing game in that period, where the Heroes of the Lance are the background and the PC's are in the spotlight. Will they meet the Heroes? Yeah someday, for sure at the Temple of Neraka, but perhaps before then too. I have let the PC's lead themselves by the nose, giving them carrots to follow if they wish. Raistlin is most arguably the most popular character in DL and there will always be a demand for him. But how many times can you repeat the same sad, tired story? When the War of Souls ended, so did an era. Let them stay dead when that time comes, and if you wish to 'resurrect' them, pick up one of the older books and relive it all over again.