The Abyss?

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

kalanth

Oct 27, 2003 16:52:57
Ok, I have not finished the last book of the War of Souls trilogy, but since I am not one to care about spoilers (After all, I know Soth and Tak are gone, Paladine is not a god, etc.). I had a thought.

What is going on in the Abyss? I mean, Tak is gone afterall, and there were some Devils/Demons there. Would they be fighting for supremacy in the Abyss? I have a plot going that has a human trying to bring Tak back from the dead (without the gods noticing) so that he can reinstill her as a god, then kill her on the Abyss to become a god. Overall, I am just wondering what is happening on the Abyss.
#2

baron_the_curse

Oct 27, 2003 17:04:59
If I where you I would just write up my own Abyssal politics for Dragonlance. The Dragonlance series has never strongly supported information on the planes. Only giving glimpses on a few novels and occassionally in a gaming product.
#3

kalanth

Oct 27, 2003 17:09:50
I always went with the idea that the planes of the Gods of Dragonlance, as was once described in Spelljammer, are indepent of the others. The Abyss that Tak lives on is not the same Abyss that is used in the Plainscape materials and the Book of the Planes. This was how I figured it at least. Does anyone have any particular ideas on this theory?
#4

zombiegleemax

Oct 27, 2003 21:09:04
I've always had no problems working within the D&D cosmology. I simply accepted the Planescape position that Krynn primes were clueless and didn't know that "The Abyss" was really many different lower planes.

I still run with that assumption. After all, Krynn got pulled to another part of the Prime, outside of Krynnspace. So obviously there's more to the cosmos than just the realms they know of.
#5

jontg

Oct 28, 2003 18:46:17
Originally posted by Kalanth
I always went with the idea that the planes of the Gods of Dragonlance, as was once described in Spelljammer, are indepent of the others. The Abyss that Tak lives on is not the same Abyss that is used in the Plainscape materials and the Book of the Planes. This was how I figured it at least. Does anyone have any particular ideas on this theory?

Actually, the planes of Kryyn are probably the same ones you find in D&D standard. Several examples illustrate this quite clearly:
1. In "The Medusa Plague," wizards summor Ki-rin, Xorn, and elementals of all sorts.
2. In the short story "Through the Door at the Top of the Sky," a gnome-built spaceship (Spelljammer?) is intercepted by Mind Flayers.
3. In the short story "A Stone's Throw Away," Tas helps Demogorgon escape from servitude to a wizard.
4. Come on, who hasn't figured out that Bahamut and Tiamat are really Paladine and Takhisis?
#6

zombiegleemax

Oct 28, 2003 20:16:54
Originally posted by Jontg
3. In the short story "A Stone's Throw Away," Tas helps Demogorgon escape from servitude to a wizard.

In the best of tales, roger e moore corrects that saying that yes, that was supposed to be demogorgon, but he didn't know at the time that demogorgon didn't exist in the DL mythology. He said to blame it on the editors, and to call it Fred or something.
#7

zombiegleemax

Oct 28, 2003 20:26:35
Paladine and Takhisis are NOT Bahamut and Tiamat.

The two gods are loosely based on the gods of dragons. For instance, Bahamut cares for noone other than dragons, same with Tiamat.

Even in the Planescape line it is said that Paladine and Takhisis are in some way related to the other two, though if they are siblings or children it is not known.

And the appearance of elemntals doesn't prove that the Great Wheel is the cosmology. Elementals can come from any Elemental planes and are not tied into the Great Wheel.

Both of those short stories were written according to the 2e DL which, along with all other campaign settings, had the Great Wheel as their cosmology.

Such a cosmology was never really supported by the DL novel line. That, and the break with WotC is why the new cosmology was invented. It fits with the old novels and makes sense over all.

The fact that there is a larger cosmology out there than even the Gods know of (the Dragon Overlord planet) hints that the multiverse may not be the only multiverse. Perhaps if you went for a "swim" in the ethereal sea you'd find yourself on the Great Wheel.
#8

jontg

Oct 28, 2003 20:26:39
Tas couldn't even think this guy's name--how could it be Fred?!
#9

zombiegleemax

Oct 28, 2003 20:27:40
Has Tas ever truely heard of Fred?

If Tas can't think of Demogorgon how can I? Psht, malarky.
#10

zombiegleemax

Oct 29, 2003 13:18:32
Technically, according to the new gaming material, there are only 3 outer planes involved with Krynn.....It has been thankfully removed from the D&D multiverse.
#11

brimstone

Oct 29, 2003 13:43:13
Yeah...of course aside from the Dome of Creation, Abyss, and the Neutral one (damnit...why can I never remember the name of this?)...there is the Fire, Water, Earth, Air, Possitive, Negative, and Ethereal Planes. And of course the Ethereal Sea outside of that.

Did I forget one? (besides the Prime Material)
#12

kalanth

Oct 29, 2003 14:02:32
All of this info is great, and in many cases supports my idea of only the planes the gods live on. But, what about what is going on in the Abyss? Basically, as DM's (and fans), what do you think is actually happening on the Abyss, in ways of replacing Tak?
#13

zombiegleemax

Oct 29, 2003 14:35:17
Technicaly all the new cosmology crap can be easily explained away with the Module "Die Vecna, Die" It basicly sets the framework for the multiple cosmology paradigm that also ties in with the old 3e mythology. The way I see it Krynn is in another crystal sphere, the great wheel still exists, but Krynn has a set of "buffer" outer planes before one can get there (much like the cynosure and fuge plane in Forgotten Realms)
#14

zombiegleemax

Oct 29, 2003 17:38:41
Hmmm.....wouldn't the Abyss that Tak is on have to be seperate from the real(regular) one since she is lawful?
#15

jontg

Oct 29, 2003 17:47:53
Originally posted by Halabis
Technicaly all the new cosmology crap can be easily explained away with the Module "Die Vecna, Die" It basicly sets the framework for the multiple cosmology paradigm that also ties in with the old 3e mythology. The way I see it Krynn is in another crystal sphere, the great wheel still exists, but Krynn has a set of "buffer" outer planes before one can get there (much like the cynosure and fuge plane in Forgotten Realms)

Actually, there's a quote in "Through the Door at the Top of the Sky" that verifies that--when he escapes from the Mind Flayer's ship, the gnome steals a little device that the Mind Flayers need to pass from one cosmology to another.
#16

zombiegleemax

Oct 29, 2003 22:24:00
I don't think that it'd be devils or demons fighting for supremecy, but the other evil gods. If they are all together, than why wouldn't they? Oh course, Lord Sargonnas will win, and he will lead us on a glorious conquest of Ansolon, then Krynn, then the Univers itself! And then, when we have done that, and minotaurs reign supreme, we will take this messageboard!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

...

Erm...*sweatdrop* Nevermind!

(Still don't suspect a thing)
#17

kalanth

Oct 30, 2003 10:01:06
Interesting Idea of Sargonnas becoming the champion of the evil gods. I have always favored the Minotaurs in Dragonlance (ever since I read about Kaz), so maybe I will have that tie in somewhere. The minotaurs that occupy Silvanesti plan to expand as well, and are aiming for Blode, since few will care if they take that, and from there I was thinking Sanction, then Solamnia.