I've been re-reading the Scartlet Brotherhood sourcebook, especially Hepmonaland.
Why are there no Demi-humans on the entire continent? I understand no dwarves, since there are no major mountain ranges, but with the Spindrift Islands so (relatively) close, you would think the forests would be crawling with elves. The hills seem perfect for gnomes or haflings. Were they all wiped out by the bat/humanoid race?
Any other theories??
I believe that Hepmonaland is supposted to be Greyhawk's Africa (and Amedio would be Central America). Classic demihumans don't really seem to 'fit' with the tone of these places' mystique/mythology. Though a tribe of feral Dark Sun-style halfings doesn't seem out of the question.
Or maybe they just got eaten by all the snake and bat people....
For elves, some favor the idea that they are not native to the Flanaess. But rather originally came from the Elven empire across the Solnor millenia ago. Elven colonists settling first amonst the isles around the Spindrift Sound, and then moving deeper into the Flanaess to battle the then surface dwelling kuo-toa. Why not settle Hepmonaland? Maybe there is a good story to develop there that when the elven colonists first arrived there was a civilization there which the elves couldn't take overcome, and has since passed into memory.
The LGG finally gave the gnome more background, positting they originated from an underground kingdom to the north. A good enough reason for why they wouldn't have moved into Hepmonaland, IMO.
Dwarves? I dunno, but I like the idea that dwarves were contemporaries of the Kuo toa, and thus predated the Flan dominance on the Flanaess. Where the dwarves then dwelled in the DeepOerth, and when the elven colonists pushed the Kuo toa on the surface to migrate uderground, it pushed the dwarves to the surface. Thus giving an origination to dwarven/elven antagonism. Maybe there still are dwarven nations deep below Hepmonaland that haven't been displaced and are still waiting to be discovered by explorers.
Halflings? I have no advice for these people, but I don't have any problem with them not being present in Hepmonaland.
Eric Anondson
I like having the beastmen in Hepmonaland. IMC Grung,& Grippli are the major races of Blackmoor, while Gnolls make up a great amount of their numbers as well. I reserved the beastmen for all jungle-like enviroments. So I removed any source of them from places like the Vesve and Gnarley Woods.
Halfling's require the assistance of other species to survive. That's why they are more popular among the highly civilized parts of the world. While the Halfling people are smart and cunning, they lack the muscle it sometimes takes to cement a kingdom. Therefore their are far and few between any halfling only regions.
Where as the Dwarves have been more than capable of cementing a place all their own. The Elves once had the numbers to do this. Since their numbers have dwindled over the centuries their kingdoms have diminished in great numbers as well. This is one of the reasons elves started cooperating with humans. By using Elven Wisdom and the shear numbers of humans elves have been able to hold on too some of their lands.
This might be one of the reasons Queen Yolande did not wish to get her people involved during the GReyhawk Wars.
I for one have been mapping out a race by reigion just to keep a sense of realizism in my game. So in some parts of the world it might not be unheard of to never of seen or heard about certain races. While in other reigions some races may be considered a myth.
Therefore IMC Beastmen would only be known to people from a jungle-like reigion.
I ranted long enough I hope this can help you flesh things out a bit.
If you visit the old
Greytalk Archives and enter "Humanoids in SB" you can find a few posts regarding this issue.
In Chatdemon's campaigns, there are grugach in the Amedio Jungle. I'd prefer not to have indigenous olves, noniz, or hobniz in either Hepmonaland or the Amedio Jungle. However, there might be a few mountain dwur holds in the foothills of the Hellfurnaces...
I'd love to see someone detail the d'kana societies of those foothills. It was nice to see the dakon in a LGJ...
What monster would you use for the reportedly extinct bat-people?
I'm aware of Camazotz, aka "Zotz" but don't really know why Sean K. Reynolds created the "bat-people" prehistory. Is it a reference to a Cthuloid mythos?
Any ideas?
Just an idea is all! I don't really know much about the original bat-people. But I would suggest making them a people of pigmy stature. You could also tie them to the foothills of the area which gives you a way of keeping the Hepmonaland area free of the standard races. While at the same time giving it a unique kind of feel.
Werebats might work. I'm far from an expert of pre-columbian Meso-American history and mythology, but the Aztec concept of nahual (as reported by anthropologists, archaeologists, and other interested scholars) could be interpreted in D&D as a lycanthrope. Nahualli were spirit-doubles of people and took the form of animals. Hmm, actually maybe using the hengeyokai (from OA) would be best.
Yeah, I think I like that idea. While Bat isn't listed in Table 1-3 of OA, it shouldn't be too hard to devise stats. Does anyone know if Dragon printed additional Hengeyokai animal forms recently?
Take good care.
PS - After looking for a few minutes, I found the following webpage, http://www.pantheon.org/areas/mythology/americas/aztec/articles.html, which contains entries for "nahual" and "nagual" (as the concept is sometimes translated. While extremely limited, these brief definitions are not per se incorrect.
Originally posted by rostoff
with the Spindrift Islands so (relatively) close, you would think the forests would be crawling with elves.
Elves do not beling in the Spindrifts. The "exodus" there was a poor attempt at recreating FR's Evermeet and emulating the tolkien tradition of "elves in decline".
Len Lakofka, who wrote the L series modules which were set there, had the islands predeominantly Dwarven, and I see no reason to change that.
Originally posted by Tizoc
I'm aware of Camazotz, aka "Zotz" but don't really know why Sean K. Reynolds created the "bat-people" prehistory. Is it a reference to a Cthuloid mythos?
Any ideas?
Probably because Sean was lazy and rather than try and give the Olman an interesting and creative history, he just fell back on the Tamoachan crutch of poorly inspired and developed imitation of Aztec and Mayan myth.
I recommend my own writings on the topic, search canonfire for "amedio chatdemon". I've tried to put a lot more effort into the Olman myth than Scarlet Brotherhood did.
It's also worth nothing that I do not believe the Olman should come from Hepmonaland. There is simply no reason for it. Put the Olman in the Amedio and the Touv in Hepmonaland and you've still got a great foundation for ancient warfare and conflict between the two. Since Sean never developed any of this stuff beyond the broad strokes of SB, I tend to dismiss it and fall back instead on Roger Moore's material from the Oerth Journals and the old AOL discussion forum.
Originally posted by Greyhack
Elves do not beling in the Spindrifts. The "exodus" there was a poor attempt at recreating FR's Evermeet and emulating the tolkien tradition of "elves in decline".
Len Lakofka, who wrote the L series modules which were set there, had the islands predeominantly Dwarven, and I see no reason to change that.
Elves DO belong in the Spindrifts.
The '83 guide clearly notes that the northern islands are ruled by High Elves.
Further, the Glossography homelands table for demi-humans clearly notes that the both Dwarves and Elves only had a 2% chance each of being from the Spindrift Isles. Since that was taken from a table created by Len Lakofka that appeared in Dragon 52 (IIRC), there is no way the islands could have been predominantly Dwarven.
Of course, Len also "forgot" what he wrote in L2 when he said Kord only has Chaotic clerics in the Dragon articles on Suel deities less than a year later, so it is quite possible he also "forgot" that the published description of the Spindrift Islands had Elves ruling the northern island, and only 1,500+ compared to a human population of 30,000 on Lendore Island.
So while the exodus may be a bunch of drivel, canon clearly supports the presence and dominance of Elves, while equally clearly refuting anything Len Lakofka may have put in a module that was lost for years.
Originally posted by Samwise
Elves DO belong in the Spindrifts.
The '83 guide clearly notes that the northern islands are ruled by High Elves.
Hello!
Exactly! The Lendore Isles as a reclusive island nation of elves first appeared in From the Ashes, where the High Elves of the northern isles conquered the other isles to form a purist elven nation. Even half-elves are frowned upon since.
That said, according to the entries it is highly unlikely that Lendore elves from either the '83 box or Fta (and later) would have much of an impact on demihuman population on Hepmonaland, as they are extremely reclusive and thus not prone to wandering.
Glorfinden
Werebats might work. I'm far from an expert of pre-columbian Meso-American history and mythology, but the Aztec concept of nahual (as reported by anthropologists, archaeologists, and other interested scholars) could be interpreted in D&D as a lycanthrope. Nahualli were spirit-doubles of people and took the form of animals. Hmm, actually maybe using the hengeyokai (from OA) would be best.
I like the idea Tizoc forgot all about the hengeyokai. Just keep the Nahualli name and use the hengeyokai as a template for the race. I like it it works for me. But reading the old 1e oriental adventures the Hengeyokai are intelligent, shape-changing animals. So they probably will look much like were-bats only without a human form, but they would posses a bipedal form I would think. Also based on what I saw their main mode of transportation would be flight while walking movement would range from 3" to 6". They would probably have alignment restrictions of Any neutral to Any evil based on this template. I don't know of the changes in 3e but I believe I might have a 2e version I could check as well.
Originally posted by Greyhack
Let me rephrase. Elves can be in the spindrifts, Elven nations, IMO, do not. Gygax (and Len for that matter) gave no indication of the "elven exodus" plotline, that's one of the bits Sargent introduced that I don't like. I'd rather have the mixed, but predominantly human society that Len gave us, along with the remnants of some ancient dwarven kingdom hinted at in L3.
There's been no info on an elven nation prior to Sargent and it looks like a very deliberate attempt to form a second elven nation.
It can hardly be undone in an official setting simply because you'd have to ignore history and declare that it never happened.On the other hand, a homebrew campaign can do just that (and I certainly will). This would even be good material for an article in Canonfire I guess.
Glorfinden