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Bards and the Test...

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Oct 29, 2003 14:48:14 One of my players is considering playing a bard in the game that I will soon be running. I found myself facing a problem that had never occurred to me, as this is the first time I've seen a bard played in a Dragonlance game. But here is my problem -

The Order of High Sorcery turns blind eyes to those they deem to be merely dabblers of magic, those who are only capable of casting first level spells. Once a magic-user is able to cast second level spells, they are then expected to take the Test, lest they be branded renegades - and thusly become sport.

While in the d20 system bards use primal sorcery, they still cast arcane spells. This would imply to me that they should be subject to the requirements of any arcane spellcaster to either become a robed wizard or be considered a renegade.

Granted, at the beginning of the game which is set in the Age of Mortals, they Order will not yet be fully re-established and will not be an immediate problem, bards begin casting second level spells fairly early into their bardic careers.

I was wondering if anyone else had come to this similar line of thought. If so, how did you handle this matter?

Correlanthias
#2
kalanth
Oct 29, 2003 14:59:15 I rule that a bard need not worry bout the test, and that the WoHS don't worry bout the bard. Basically, clerics magic comes from the Gods, Druids comes from Nature, Rangers comes from Nature as well, Mystics comes from themselves, Sorcerers comes from themselves (but I make it that they need to take the test), Paladins (if allowed) come from the Gods, and finally, Bards get their spells from the music (or however they perform). By this, I stated to the players in my game that they need not take the test because the magic was, in essence, a gift from a higher power, and the WoHS would not interfere with them.
#3
zombiegleemax
Oct 29, 2003 15:03:39 I made Bards in my game 'Clerics of Branchala'. Basically, if you're a bard (a good/neutral one anyway, I haven't had to deal with anything else), you're considered a caster of divine magic which is channeled through music and such. And hell, while a Bard may not actively worship Branchala, they still do his bidding in the end. So it works.

But that's just one way you could do it.
#4
zombiegleemax
Oct 29, 2003 16:37:14 If you use arcane magic outside of the influence of high sorcery, renegadus sunt!
#5
zombiegleemax
Oct 29, 2003 16:38:57 It's actually an excellent resolution, and the notion that their magic comes from Branchala neatly covers why Bardic magic was absent during the early part of the Fifth Age.
#6
Dragonhelm
Oct 29, 2003 17:51:18 Bards in Dragonlance have always been an interesting topic for me. In many ways, they don't fit, save as a user of primal sorcery in the Age of Mortals. They would be subject to the same rules as sorcerers in regards to the Test of High Sorcery.

Here are some links to some bard articles I have written, each with a different take on bards:

Bard of the Song

Bards of Branchala

Bards of Krynn: Options for Bardic Magic

The first article is a way for bards to exist side-by-side with the WoHS.

The second one is an article on adapting Monte Cook's alternate bard to Dragonlance.

The last one is an article on how to approach bards with each of the four types of magic on Krynn.

I think the DLCS did a good job of fitting the bard into Krynn by having it use primal sorcery. However, I do not feel that the bard, as-is, is a good fit for DL.

The role of a spellcasting bard (as opposed to your average performing minstrel) is, IMO, a better fit as a champion of the god Branchala, aka the Song of Life. The write-up of Branchala in the Tales of the Lance boxed set mentions that the hearts of mortals beat to the rhythm of the music of Branchala. In my second write-up above, I make note that bards are those who can hear the music of Branchala beating within their hearts, and that they can channel the power of his music to create spellcasting effects.

I think each DM will have to determine for themselves whether or not the bard fits in with DL, and how exactly it does fit. The rules in the DLCS provide a very good answer, yet I imagine there will be a number of DM's who will modify, or omit the bard.
#7
zombiegleemax
Oct 29, 2003 22:12:42 Hmmm....I had an idea. Let the Bard, Ranger, Paladin, Monk, and Druid all be specialists clerics. Sorta. I mean, Druids already are, and Paladins could work as specialist clerics for Paladine, Kiri-Jolith, maybe allow Lawful Evil Paladins that would represent Sargonnas. The monks would be specialists of Majere or Sargonnas(they're the only monk gods, right?), Ranger could be...I dunno, maybe not for Ranger, because there really aren't anymore nature-y gods than Habbakuk, Chislev, and Zeboin, although Branchala sort of is, but he'd fit more for Bards. Maybe make Bards spontaneously cast divine spells, but have them be granted by Branchala.
#8
zombiegleemax
Oct 30, 2003 0:50:30 Thanks everyone,

Truthfully, I am just amazed that it had never come up before in my gaming group. But I think that I will take some of the suggestions to make the spells cast by bards to be divine in nature. I was just a bit hesitant to just start rewriting the game too much. I know that once I start, I have great difficulty in twinking just a few things and end up practically writing a new version completely.

Correlanthias
#9
zombiegleemax
Nov 03, 2003 14:02:18 I did not give any real though on how I was going to use bards in my campaign (346 AC) yet, as none of my players took a bard at first level. But now one of my players has demonstrated an interest in multi-classing her rouge to add a bard level when she reaches 2nd level, and also I am going to introduce an NPC female centaur psionic bard in the next adventure, so I need to give it some thought.

I looked at the options that Dragonhelm posted, and I will go with the “Bard of the Song” idea, with the modification that bards can’t use any of their healing spells or be instructed in the ways of religion until the true gods return during the WOTL. I like the bardic challenge idea, and the compromise the gods made in order to allow bards to exsist.

Thanks for the article Dragonhelm, I will put it to good use!

George
#10
zombiegleemax
Nov 04, 2003 10:37:38 This question has come up in my current campaign as well, because I have a wizard and a bard and we weren't sure if the Conclave would be sniffing out the bard too.

I decided, based on the particular higher-level spells available to bards, that for my story, a bard who reaches the same requirements needed for a wizard of High Sorcery, would be identified by the Conclave as one who needs to take the Test of High Sorcery.

The difference between the wizard and bard is one level for casting second level spells. If anything, a bard has a better chance of surviving than a wizard(assuming they took the test immidiately when they were supposed to).
#11
Dragonhelm
Nov 04, 2003 13:25:15
Originally posted by Giorgio
Thanks for the article Dragonhelm, I will put it to good use!

Glad it was helpful!

Bards in Krynn are one of my favorite subjects, especially since they are such a hard fit. They're arcane spellcasters who cast healing spells, which is the domain of divine spellcasters in Krynn. They are very free-spirited, and therefore don't fit in the mold of the dedicated WoHS.

The decision to go with primal sorcery was the best fit rules-wise (noting that they can't cast healing spells), and was also a good fit for the world.

Granted, this presents problems for those who wish to use bards pre-Age of Mortals. Luckily, there are plenty of options out there to help a DM to create the right scenario for bards in his game.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Oct 29, 2003 14:48:14	One of my players is considering playing a bard in the game that I will soon be running. I found myself facing a problem that had never occurred to me, as this is the first time I've seen a bard played in a Dragonlance game. But here is my problem - The Order of High Sorcery turns blind eyes to those they deem to be merely dabblers of magic, those who are only capable of casting first level spells. Once a magic-user is able to cast second level spells, they are then expected to take the Test, lest they be branded renegades - and thusly become sport. While in the d20 system bards use primal sorcery, they still cast arcane spells. This would imply to me that they should be subject to the requirements of any arcane spellcaster to either become a robed wizard or be considered a renegade. Granted, at the beginning of the game which is set in the Age of Mortals, they Order will not yet be fully re-established and will not be an immediate problem, bards begin casting second level spells fairly early into their bardic careers. I was wondering if anyone else had come to this similar line of thought. If so, how did you handle this matter? Correlanthias
#2 kalanth Oct 29, 2003 14:59:15	I rule that a bard need not worry bout the test, and that the WoHS don't worry bout the bard. Basically, clerics magic comes from the Gods, Druids comes from Nature, Rangers comes from Nature as well, Mystics comes from themselves, Sorcerers comes from themselves (but I make it that they need to take the test), Paladins (if allowed) come from the Gods, and finally, Bards get their spells from the music (or however they perform). By this, I stated to the players in my game that they need not take the test because the magic was, in essence, a gift from a higher power, and the WoHS would not interfere with them.
#3 zombiegleemax Oct 29, 2003 15:03:39	I made Bards in my game 'Clerics of Branchala'. Basically, if you're a bard (a good/neutral one anyway, I haven't had to deal with anything else), you're considered a caster of divine magic which is channeled through music and such. And hell, while a Bard may not actively worship Branchala, they still do his bidding in the end. So it works. But that's just one way you could do it.
#4 zombiegleemax Oct 29, 2003 16:37:14	If you use arcane magic outside of the influence of high sorcery, renegadus sunt!
#5 zombiegleemax Oct 29, 2003 16:38:57	It's actually an excellent resolution, and the notion that their magic comes from Branchala neatly covers why Bardic magic was absent during the early part of the Fifth Age.
#6 Dragonhelm Oct 29, 2003 17:51:18	Bards in Dragonlance have always been an interesting topic for me. In many ways, they don't fit, save as a user of primal sorcery in the Age of Mortals. They would be subject to the same rules as sorcerers in regards to the Test of High Sorcery. Here are some links to some bard articles I have written, each with a different take on bards: Bard of the Song Bards of Branchala Bards of Krynn: Options for Bardic Magic The first article is a way for bards to exist side-by-side with the WoHS. The second one is an article on adapting Monte Cook's alternate bard to Dragonlance. The last one is an article on how to approach bards with each of the four types of magic on Krynn. I think the DLCS did a good job of fitting the bard into Krynn by having it use primal sorcery. However, I do not feel that the bard, as-is, is a good fit for DL. The role of a spellcasting bard (as opposed to your average performing minstrel) is, IMO, a better fit as a champion of the god Branchala, aka the Song of Life. The write-up of Branchala in the Tales of the Lance boxed set mentions that the hearts of mortals beat to the rhythm of the music of Branchala. In my second write-up above, I make note that bards are those who can hear the music of Branchala beating within their hearts, and that they can channel the power of his music to create spellcasting effects. I think each DM will have to determine for themselves whether or not the bard fits in with DL, and how exactly it does fit. The rules in the DLCS provide a very good answer, yet I imagine there will be a number of DM's who will modify, or omit the bard.
#7 zombiegleemax Oct 29, 2003 22:12:42	Hmmm....I had an idea. Let the Bard, Ranger, Paladin, Monk, and Druid all be specialists clerics. Sorta. I mean, Druids already are, and Paladins could work as specialist clerics for Paladine, Kiri-Jolith, maybe allow Lawful Evil Paladins that would represent Sargonnas. The monks would be specialists of Majere or Sargonnas(they're the only monk gods, right?), Ranger could be...I dunno, maybe not for Ranger, because there really aren't anymore nature-y gods than Habbakuk, Chislev, and Zeboin, although Branchala sort of is, but he'd fit more for Bards. Maybe make Bards spontaneously cast divine spells, but have them be granted by Branchala.
#8 zombiegleemax Oct 30, 2003 0:50:30	Thanks everyone, Truthfully, I am just amazed that it had never come up before in my gaming group. But I think that I will take some of the suggestions to make the spells cast by bards to be divine in nature. I was just a bit hesitant to just start rewriting the game too much. I know that once I start, I have great difficulty in twinking just a few things and end up practically writing a new version completely. Correlanthias
#9 zombiegleemax Nov 03, 2003 14:02:18	I did not give any real though on how I was going to use bards in my campaign (346 AC) yet, as none of my players took a bard at first level. But now one of my players has demonstrated an interest in multi-classing her rouge to add a bard level when she reaches 2nd level, and also I am going to introduce an NPC female centaur psionic bard in the next adventure, so I need to give it some thought. I looked at the options that Dragonhelm posted, and I will go with the “Bard of the Song” idea, with the modification that bards can’t use any of their healing spells or be instructed in the ways of religion until the true gods return during the WOTL. I like the bardic challenge idea, and the compromise the gods made in order to allow bards to exsist. Thanks for the article Dragonhelm, I will put it to good use! George
#10 zombiegleemax Nov 04, 2003 10:37:38	This question has come up in my current campaign as well, because I have a wizard and a bard and we weren't sure if the Conclave would be sniffing out the bard too. I decided, based on the particular higher-level spells available to bards, that for my story, a bard who reaches the same requirements needed for a wizard of High Sorcery, would be identified by the Conclave as one who needs to take the Test of High Sorcery. The difference between the wizard and bard is one level for casting second level spells. If anything, a bard has a better chance of surviving than a wizard(assuming they took the test immidiately when they were supposed to).
#11 Dragonhelm Nov 04, 2003 13:25:15	Originally posted by Giorgio Thanks for the article Dragonhelm, I will put it to good use! Glad it was helpful! Bards in Krynn are one of my favorite subjects, especially since they are such a hard fit. They're arcane spellcasters who cast healing spells, which is the domain of divine spellcasters in Krynn. They are very free-spirited, and therefore don't fit in the mold of the dedicated WoHS. The decision to go with primal sorcery was the best fit rules-wise (noting that they can't cast healing spells), and was also a good fit for the world. Granted, this presents problems for those who wish to use bards pre-Age of Mortals. Luckily, there are plenty of options out there to help a DM to create the right scenario for bards in his game.