* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : 2nd Ed Fighters and nothing else Started at 07-07-07 08:27 AM by NorthsDefender Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=881309 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : NorthsDefender Date : 07-07-07 08:27 AM Thread Title : 2nd Ed Fighters and nothing else Obviously there are a lot of threads out there that are about 3.XE fighters. Mostly stating that they are too weak (fighter vs warblade and so on). I didnt work my self into 2nd Ed. long enough to judge wether there the fighters are balanced or not. Your opinion on this affair? Are they a relatively good match for other character classes? And is there anywhere a barbarian version for the 2nd Ed.? In the PHB there are berserks mentioned in the figters followers table. Is there a sorce where they are further detailled? Thank you in advance!:tiphat: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : Wiseblood Date : 07-07-07 09:09 AM Thread Title : Re: 2nd Ed Fighters and nothing else Fighters were much better in 2e. Things were balanced. In the end casters weilded more power but they had earned it. fighters had the best saves Enemies had fewer HPs Ac topped out at the equivalent of 30 If you could get to a foe you could make all of your attacks at = full bab ie. no full attack vs. standard No AoO for movement so fighters could move around easier Specialization at first level = +1 to hit +2 to damage and an extra attack every other round No such thing as armor check penalty or max dex Unless DM ruled otherwise non-warrior pc's could not even learn to use the good weapons. Magic items were better for you then too. Belt of Sorm Giant strength didn't care if your strength was 12 or 20 it simply made it 24. 2e fighters were awesome because the system itself did not nerf them. The system also made casters earn their power. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : NorthsDefender Date : 07-07-07 09:40 AM Thread Title : Re: 2nd Ed Fighters and nothing else I see it seems very plausible so far. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : caeruleus Date : 07-07-07 01:50 PM Thread Title : Re: 2nd Ed Fighters and nothing else Obviously there are a lot of threads out there that are about 3.XE fighters. Mostly stating that they are too weak (fighter vs warblade and so on). I didnt work my self into 2nd Ed. long enough to judge wether there the fighters are balanced or not. Your opinion on this affair? Are they a relatively good match for other character classes? I remember this issue coming up in the forum of Dragon Magazine way back during the days of 2e. As I recall, I got a letter printed as part of that debate. Specialization was good. But I remember thinking that maybe only fighters (and not all warriors in general) should get percentile strength and a Con bonus of more than +2 to hp. But overall, I think the class is just fine (unless you allowed Dragonlance's knights of solamnia, or Dark Sun's gladiators). And is there anywhere a barbarian version for the 2nd Ed.? IIRC, the Complete Barbarian's Handbook had a few different barbarian classes, and I think one of them was close to the UA barbarian. In the PHB there are berserks mentioned in the figters followers table. Is there a sorce where they are further detailled? The Monstrous Manual lists the "berserker/dervish" under "human". I'd go with that. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : shadzar Date : 07-07-07 05:01 PM Thread Title : Re: 2nd Ed Fighters and nothing else Complete Fighters Handbook has barbarians. Complete Barbarians Handbook....has barbarians. these kits were only slight changes with some new abilities and were turned into mostly the prestige classes of 3.x editions. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : Regularguy Date : 07-07-07 10:07 PM Thread Title : Re: 2nd Ed Fighters and nothing else Specialization at first level = +1 to hit +2 to damage and an extra attack every other round. Plus, what with the general absence of a Monk class in 2E, experienced Fighters were the default guys for trading punches; they could specialize like crazy in the stuff, exchanging the slew of weapon proficiencies they'd otherwise be racking up for an ever-increasing set of to-hit and damage bonuses when putting fists upside jaws for the quick knockout. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : shadzar Date : 07-07-07 10:26 PM Thread Title : Re: 2nd Ed Fighters and nothing else i think the monk was removed for more traditional fantasy genre styling. where a priest/cleric/druid was closer to medieval times and the monk mainly comes from ideas of oriental fighters. and of course David Carradine as Kane from Kung Fu.... the druid also seems a bit off, but it is within the proper timeframe that most generic medieval british settings would encompass. think along those lines and you will see why some of the classes and things exist as they do from a timeframe standpoint. of course this doesn't mean that the fictional worlds we choose to play in doesn't include them, that is why the monk can be found in the non Core books. or the oriental adventures book i am sure. never really had anyone who wanted to be a monk myself. so if not for more tradinitional setting reason, then maybe the class was just too weak of a player base to warrant it being in 2nd? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : Regularguy Date : 07-08-07 10:37 AM Thread Title : Re: 2nd Ed Fighters and nothing else the druid also seems a bit off, but it is within the proper timeframe that most generic medieval british settings would encompass. Well, yeah -- but there's that whole bit in 2E where it's fine to play a Fighter who first takes the Gladiator kit to deliver uppercuts while wearing cesti, and maybe later dual-classes into becoming a priest of Apollo, or whatever. And, of course, it's called "Greco-Roman Wrestling" for a reason, seeing as how the ancient Olympics put that skill right up there with (a) the blocks and punches of boxing, and (b) the kicks and chokeholds of pankration -- sure as you could specialize in Boxing or Wrestling or Martial Arts in 2E. The 2E Player's Handbook, of course, helpfully mentioned that folks who happen to be clad in medieval armor would get a bonus to damage when punching with metal gauntlets on -- and the 2E Complete Fighter ran with that by giving a further bonus to anyone effectively throwing a punch by foregoing the bladework to instead connect with the brass-knuckle-esque bell-guard of a broadsword, or whatever. And so rules were in place to build an experienced pugilist in the context of armed and armored knights; he's a trained combatant who spends most of his waking hours walking around with steel wrapped around his hands, of course he's ready to keep pounding you upside the head if the time isn't right for a stab or a slash. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : Valadrim Date : 07-09-07 02:44 AM Thread Title : Re: 2nd Ed Fighters and nothing else My favourite bit of balance was the time that wizards needed to take in order to memorize spells. In 3.X all it takes is 8 hours of rest and 30 minutes of checking of notes. In second ed spells took...gosh I can't seem to find it, but I think it was about 10 minutes per spell level (perhaps a little less). Which means if a level 20 wizard exhausts his spells one day, it takes 27 hours of meticulously going through his spell book in order to fully refresh himself. High level psions were capable of exhausting themselves even more quickly than wizards, and could take a week or more to fully recover from spending all their Psionic Strength Points. I like the fact that individuals who are capable of having their way with the laws of reality take more time to be ready for the day than it takes for the fighter to maintain his gear. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0020.html -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : NorthsDefender Date : 07-09-07 07:00 AM Thread Title : Re: 2nd Ed Fighters and nothing else Well how is the 2nd Edition Scarlet Brotherhood working without Monks (Surely a stupid question for those who know it:rolleyes: ) ? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : shadzar Date : 07-09-07 04:42 PM Thread Title : Re: 2nd Ed Fighters and nothing else My favourite bit of balance was the time that wizards needed to take in order to memorize spells. In 3.X all it takes is 8 hours of rest and 30 minutes of checking of notes. In second ed spells took...gosh I can't seem to find it, but I think it was about 10 minutes per spell level (perhaps a little less). Which means if a level 20 wizard exhausts his spells one day, it takes 27 hours of meticulously going through his spell book in order to fully refresh himself. High level psions were capable of exhausting themselves even more quickly than wizards, and could take a week or more to fully recover from spending all their Psionic Strength Points. I like the fact that individuals who are capable of having their way with the laws of reality take more time to be ready for the day than it takes for the fighter to maintain his gear. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0020.html at 1 HP per day of rest the party might just need that time it takes the wizard to get his spells back if he exhausted them entirely. probably because they took a bit of damage and need the rest. one day resting isn't always a bad things unless you are hampered in an area with no safe place to rest. that was one of the things that balanced the wizards power at higher levels. ure he can do more damage than a fighterm but he can't do it constantly. the fighter could keep going after some rest while the wizard tries to catch up with his spells.:cool: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:23 AM.