Ogres??? Why not Orcs? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Ogres??? Why not Orcs?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Oct 30, 2003 15:53:44 I finally got my DL Campaign Setting book! Soon I will have degenerated into one of you (joking)!

One question, though: If I were selecting a fantasy race to represent good, I would choose elves. Nothing wrong there. But surely the Gods of Evil could have done better than ogres? Since their popularisation with LotR, Orcs have usually been the exact opposite of elves (elves=good, orcs=evil). So why not orcs? Are there even orcs in Dragonlance?

(I've read the Best of Tales Anthology, and almost all fantasy anthologies I've read had orcs.)
#2
zombiegleemax
Oct 30, 2003 16:05:31 So everyone else has 'em so DL has to have 'em?

God I hate that smiley. So arrogant and filled with hubris. You bastard. ::Shakes fist!::

No there are no Orcs in Dragonlance. The Dragonlance writers thought that EVERY setting had Orcs. SOO MANY ORCS! So, they from the beginning decided to leave Orcs off of Krynn.

So, no Orcs, none. besides, Orcs are wimpy. Ogres kick serious ass.
#3
kalanth
Oct 30, 2003 16:05:55 Well, in essence, the Ogre is a wonderful choice, especially since it boils down to the fact that they were one of the first races and used to be the most beutiful and revered. They were cursed and became Ogres. I don't think Orcs would have ever worked in DL. They just don't have the same kind of pizazz.
#4
zombiegleemax
Oct 30, 2003 16:07:56 does the word Draconian ring any bells? I say they do a damn good job representing evil :D
#5
kalanth
Oct 30, 2003 16:29:32
Originally posted by L33t Angel
No there are no Orcs in Dragonlance. The Dragonlance writers thought that EVERY setting had Orcs. SOO MANY ORCS! So, they from the beginning decided to leave Orcs off of Krynn.

So, no Orcs, none. besides, Orcs are wimpy. Ogres kick serious ass.

I think the Lord of the Rings movies have made people want to use Orcs more. The versions they have in the movie are evil, coniving, and vile, but they come no where near the intensity of a DL Ogre.
#6
Dragonhelm
Oct 30, 2003 16:56:43 As was mentioned above, the creators of DL felt that orcs were overused at that time, and so they felt they should go another route. Draconians became the replacement for them.

In Dragonlance, ogres make perfect sense to represent evil. Originally, there were three races, each one representative of one of the moral alignments. Elves represented good, ogres represented evil, and humans represented the balance in between.
#7
zombiegleemax
Oct 30, 2003 17:08:19 I think the real question he's asking is why ogres? what about the hulking monsters caught Weis and Hickman's eyes enough to make them tragic figures, and not, say just for continuity of the original post, orcs?
#8
Dragonhelm
Oct 30, 2003 17:20:50
Originally posted by Magus_Extreme
I think the real question he's asking is why ogres? what about the hulking monsters caught Weis and Hickman's eyes enough to make them tragic figures, and not, say just for continuity of the original post, orcs?

It's all in the presentation. It wasn't about having big, hulking brutes around, or having Generic Evil Thugs.

Rather, the story developed that the ogres were once a very powerful, magical, and beautiful race - one that has degenerated into the hulking brutes we see today.

It's all about the tragic loss of their beauty and power.

Now, let's say that W&H had done the same thing with orcs. In some texts, orcs are corrupted elves (LotR, right?). So if W&H had used the same background for them, it wouldn't have been as effective.

Basically, I think what caught the eye of W&H and the other creators is that you could take ogres, and make a truly tragic tale from them. Twenty years later, we're still mesmerized by that visual, as well as the irda and the ogre titans.
#9
zombiegleemax
Oct 30, 2003 17:37:10 page 172 of DLCS says there is a half-orc it made me want to cry :P
#10
Dragonhelm
Oct 30, 2003 17:55:37
Originally posted by lost_boy_84
page 172 of DLCS says there is a half-orc it made me want to cry :P

That's a kender tale. ;)
#11
zombiegleemax
Oct 30, 2003 18:44:37 gotta love those kender!! They make damn good talespinners :D
#12
zombiegleemax
Oct 30, 2003 20:12:50 *chuckles* you know, SS is going to get so much heck for not changing Klaudia to a half-ogre like she's suppose to be.....
#13
zombiegleemax
Oct 30, 2003 20:48:53 I searched all through the DLCS in the store, and I couldn't find that half-orc. I did find a half-ogre i about that place. I think. Did they maybe make a revised edition of the DLCS?
#14
baron_the_curse
Oct 30, 2003 22:26:52 You know I have a player that finds Idra disgusting because of their "ogre-tainted-blood". He veiws them almost as a "trick" for players... "Look at this inhumanly beautiful creature... but deep inside is filled with ogre puss!". Aha!

Anyway, that's just a random rant. I can't get through his head the whole tragic tale of the Idra. He's very hard headed.
#15
zombiegleemax
Oct 31, 2003 1:00:32
Originally posted by Ravenmantle
does the word Draconian ring any bells? I say they do a damn good job representing evil :D

The true evil about the draconian is not in the race but their creation. Which is more evil, the corrupted abonination or the act of depravity that created them? I think this is why the ogres who ultimately are responsible for their being is far more antithethical to the elves, than the draconians whose state was forced upon them.

Correlanthias
#16
zombiegleemax
Oct 31, 2003 2:01:34 Very true but the fact remains that dracos are used in pretty much the same way in Dragonlance as orcs are used in other campaigns...as shock troops for migty villains (generally speaking of course ).

In my view Dragonlance doesn´t need orcs because draconians do a fine job already. They are tougher than the average orc...there are different varieties...they have special abilities...their story is unique
#17
zombiegleemax
Oct 31, 2003 9:19:37 As the draconian race gets older, and finds female eggs, many seem to be slipping towards nuetral and even good alignments, so they are not exactly an orc substitute. In most fantasy worlds, orcs are the hereditary nemesis of the elves, but in dragonlance, the ogre traditionally fills that role.
#18
kipper_snifferdoo_02
Oct 31, 2003 10:22:30
Originally posted by Ravenmantle
Very true but the fact remains that dracos are used in pretty much the same way in Dragonlance as orcs are used in other campaigns...as shock troops for migty villains (generally speaking of course ).

In my view Dragonlance doesn´t need orcs because draconians do a fine job already. They are tougher than the average orc...there are different varieties...they have special abilities...their story is unique

You could just as easily substitute hobgoblins/goblins to fill the "horde/universal bad guys/cannon fodder" roll of orcs in DL.

I can't imagine hording draconians for some reason. I tend to think of them as more elite, but hording hobgoblins I have no problem with. ;) (Yes despite Lord Toede who was atypical for his race.)
#19
zombiegleemax
Oct 31, 2003 18:45:08
Originally posted by Ravenmantle
does the word Draconian ring any bells? I say they do a damn good job representing evil :D

Draconians aren't really the point of this.

They were created by the tainting of good dragons' eggs (or something).

It's the ogres that were created by the Gods of Evil to represent them (elves for Good, humans for Neutrality).

These may be new details, as, even though I'm relatively new to all this stuff, I'm well aware that WotC often change things with their updates of clasiic Campaign Settings...
#20
zombiegleemax
Nov 03, 2003 8:54:07 What about the goblins and hobgbolins? Aren't they the cannon fodder of evil? And where did they come from? I guess the ol' Graygem (aka deus ex lapidem) is responsible...
#21
zombiegleemax
Nov 03, 2003 9:59:04
Originally posted by yawgmoth_742
It's the ogres that were created by the Gods of Evil to represent them (elves for Good, humans for Neutrality).

Yes...the Ogres as they were millennia ago...majestic, beautiful, coldhearted creatures who lived in beautiful cities. Not the savage beasts skulking around in the ruins of their lost pride.
#22
zombiegleemax
Nov 03, 2003 16:50:36 Yes, well, I haven't read that much yet...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Oct 30, 2003 15:53:44	I finally got my DL Campaign Setting book! Soon I will have degenerated into one of you (joking)! One question, though: If I were selecting a fantasy race to represent good, I would choose elves. Nothing wrong there. But surely the Gods of Evil could have done better than ogres? Since their popularisation with LotR, Orcs have usually been the exact opposite of elves (elves=good, orcs=evil). So why not orcs? Are there even orcs in Dragonlance? (I've read the Best of Tales Anthology, and almost all fantasy anthologies I've read had orcs.)
#2 zombiegleemax Oct 30, 2003 16:05:31	So everyone else has 'em so DL has to have 'em? God I hate that smiley. So arrogant and filled with hubris. You bastard. ::Shakes fist!:: No there are no Orcs in Dragonlance. The Dragonlance writers thought that EVERY setting had Orcs. SOO MANY ORCS! So, they from the beginning decided to leave Orcs off of Krynn. So, no Orcs, none. besides, Orcs are wimpy. Ogres kick serious ass.
#3 kalanth Oct 30, 2003 16:05:55	Well, in essence, the Ogre is a wonderful choice, especially since it boils down to the fact that they were one of the first races and used to be the most beutiful and revered. They were cursed and became Ogres. I don't think Orcs would have ever worked in DL. They just don't have the same kind of pizazz.
#4 zombiegleemax Oct 30, 2003 16:07:56	does the word Draconian ring any bells? I say they do a damn good job representing evil :D
#5 kalanth Oct 30, 2003 16:29:32	Originally posted by L33t Angel No there are no Orcs in Dragonlance. The Dragonlance writers thought that EVERY setting had Orcs. SOO MANY ORCS! So, they from the beginning decided to leave Orcs off of Krynn. So, no Orcs, none. besides, Orcs are wimpy. Ogres kick serious ass. I think the Lord of the Rings movies have made people want to use Orcs more. The versions they have in the movie are evil, coniving, and vile, but they come no where near the intensity of a DL Ogre.
#6 Dragonhelm Oct 30, 2003 16:56:43	As was mentioned above, the creators of DL felt that orcs were overused at that time, and so they felt they should go another route. Draconians became the replacement for them. In Dragonlance, ogres make perfect sense to represent evil. Originally, there were three races, each one representative of one of the moral alignments. Elves represented good, ogres represented evil, and humans represented the balance in between.
#7 zombiegleemax Oct 30, 2003 17:08:19	I think the real question he's asking is why ogres? what about the hulking monsters caught Weis and Hickman's eyes enough to make them tragic figures, and not, say just for continuity of the original post, orcs?
#8 Dragonhelm Oct 30, 2003 17:20:50	Originally posted by Magus_Extreme I think the real question he's asking is why ogres? what about the hulking monsters caught Weis and Hickman's eyes enough to make them tragic figures, and not, say just for continuity of the original post, orcs? It's all in the presentation. It wasn't about having big, hulking brutes around, or having Generic Evil Thugs. Rather, the story developed that the ogres were once a very powerful, magical, and beautiful race - one that has degenerated into the hulking brutes we see today. It's all about the tragic loss of their beauty and power. Now, let's say that W&H had done the same thing with orcs. In some texts, orcs are corrupted elves (LotR, right?). So if W&H had used the same background for them, it wouldn't have been as effective. Basically, I think what caught the eye of W&H and the other creators is that you could take ogres, and make a truly tragic tale from them. Twenty years later, we're still mesmerized by that visual, as well as the irda and the ogre titans.
#9 zombiegleemax Oct 30, 2003 17:37:10	page 172 of DLCS says there is a half-orc it made me want to cry :P
#10 Dragonhelm Oct 30, 2003 17:55:37	Originally posted by lost_boy_84 page 172 of DLCS says there is a half-orc it made me want to cry :P That's a kender tale. ;)
#11 zombiegleemax Oct 30, 2003 18:44:37	gotta love those kender!! They make damn good talespinners :D
#12 zombiegleemax Oct 30, 2003 20:12:50	chuckles you know, SS is going to get so much heck for not changing Klaudia to a half-ogre like she's suppose to be.....
#13 zombiegleemax Oct 30, 2003 20:48:53	I searched all through the DLCS in the store, and I couldn't find that half-orc. I did find a half-ogre i about that place. I think. Did they maybe make a revised edition of the DLCS?
#14 baron_the_curse Oct 30, 2003 22:26:52	You know I have a player that finds Idra disgusting because of their "ogre-tainted-blood". He veiws them almost as a "trick" for players... "Look at this inhumanly beautiful creature... but deep inside is filled with ogre puss!". Aha! Anyway, that's just a random rant. I can't get through his head the whole tragic tale of the Idra. He's very hard headed.
#15 zombiegleemax Oct 31, 2003 1:00:32	Originally posted by Ravenmantle does the word Draconian ring any bells? I say they do a damn good job representing evil :D The true evil about the draconian is not in the race but their creation. Which is more evil, the corrupted abonination or the act of depravity that created them? I think this is why the ogres who ultimately are responsible for their being is far more antithethical to the elves, than the draconians whose state was forced upon them. Correlanthias
#16 zombiegleemax Oct 31, 2003 2:01:34	Very true but the fact remains that dracos are used in pretty much the same way in Dragonlance as orcs are used in other campaigns...as shock troops for migty villains (generally speaking of course ). In my view Dragonlance doesn´t need orcs because draconians do a fine job already. They are tougher than the average orc...there are different varieties...they have special abilities...their story is unique
#17 zombiegleemax Oct 31, 2003 9:19:37	As the draconian race gets older, and finds female eggs, many seem to be slipping towards nuetral and even good alignments, so they are not exactly an orc substitute. In most fantasy worlds, orcs are the hereditary nemesis of the elves, but in dragonlance, the ogre traditionally fills that role.
#18 kipper_snifferdoo_02 Oct 31, 2003 10:22:30	Originally posted by Ravenmantle Very true but the fact remains that dracos are used in pretty much the same way in Dragonlance as orcs are used in other campaigns...as shock troops for migty villains (generally speaking of course ). In my view Dragonlance doesn´t need orcs because draconians do a fine job already. They are tougher than the average orc...there are different varieties...they have special abilities...their story is unique You could just as easily substitute hobgoblins/goblins to fill the "horde/universal bad guys/cannon fodder" roll of orcs in DL. I can't imagine hording draconians for some reason. I tend to think of them as more elite, but hording hobgoblins I have no problem with. ;) (Yes despite Lord Toede who was atypical for his race.)
#19 zombiegleemax Oct 31, 2003 18:45:08	Originally posted by Ravenmantle does the word Draconian ring any bells? I say they do a damn good job representing evil :D Draconians aren't really the point of this. They were created by the tainting of good dragons' eggs (or something). It's the ogres that were created by the Gods of Evil to represent them (elves for Good, humans for Neutrality). These may be new details, as, even though I'm relatively new to all this stuff, I'm well aware that WotC often change things with their updates of clasiic Campaign Settings...
#20 zombiegleemax Nov 03, 2003 8:54:07	What about the goblins and hobgbolins? Aren't they the cannon fodder of evil? And where did they come from? I guess the ol' Graygem (aka deus ex lapidem) is responsible...
#21 zombiegleemax Nov 03, 2003 9:59:04	Originally posted by yawgmoth_742 It's the ogres that were created by the Gods of Evil to represent them (elves for Good, humans for Neutrality). Yes...the Ogres as they were millennia ago...majestic, beautiful, coldhearted creatures who lived in beautiful cities. Not the savage beasts skulking around in the ruins of their lost pride.
#22 zombiegleemax Nov 03, 2003 16:50:36	Yes, well, I haven't read that much yet...