Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Alzrius Nov 08, 2003 1:05:05	Well, the Vallaki bookshop is gone, but they left us two new books before they left: Children of the Night: Demons, and Shadow of the Knife, both great products. My one question is, why were both made to be unofficial? I thought that the Kargatane were empowered to make official products, and that these two would be them. Certainly, it would have been a great way to go out. Likewise, since CotN: Demons was on their product review page under the Accessories tab, next to the other products with the RL banner, I thought for sure that meant it was going to be an official RL product. Please guys, I do NOT want this to become another sordid debate on the merits of canon vs. non-canon material. I'm just interested in why the Kargatane did like they did.
#2 bob_the_efreet Nov 08, 2003 5:06:11	S&S isn't planning on releasing any 3E modules. And with the liscense passed on, S&S is the official producer. The Kargatane, beloved as they may be, are only unofficial unless they get commissioned to work on an S&S book.
#3 coan Nov 08, 2003 5:12:27	The Kargatane members who worked on this didn't get paid for it. If it was official would you get it for free? I dont think so. Be happy they are of good quality, it won't be for some time until Paridon is likely covered so to sum up in an old saying, 'Begger's can't be choosers."
#4 The_Jester Nov 08, 2003 14:11:38	Unofficial doesn't mean not cannon. Ussually it's implied but not in this case.
#5 Alzrius Nov 08, 2003 15:04:46	Originally posted by Coan If it was official would you get it for free? I dont think so. Actually, yes, it would. There are plenty of web enhancements that are free that are very official, etc. You don't have to be paying for something for it to be, by definition, official. Originally posted by The_Jester Unofficial doesn't mean not cannon. Okay, first of all, the word is canon. Not cannon. Why can't anybody get this right? Secondly, "official" and "canon" are two words for the same thing here. They can be used interchangeably. If something is official, it's canon, and vice versa.
#6 The_Jester Nov 08, 2003 15:37:21	I know the difference, I'm just a lousy typist. But since we know the events in SotK took place (see VanRichten's Arsenal) I'd wager it is canon. It's just an unofficial adventure because it is online, free, and S&S may/may-not be allowed to publish moduals. And while there are official web products these are ussually suplemental to a product you are required to purchase such as errata or web enhancements. And are done by on the official website by the publisher and writers. And Secrets of the Kargatane is no longer the official site, so official producs probably can't be posted.
#7 Alzrius Nov 08, 2003 15:56:45	Originally posted by The_Jester But since we know the events in SotK took place (see VanRichten's Arsenal) I'd wager it is canon. Where exactly in VRA does it refer to SotK? Even, though, if VRA does refer to such events, that doesn't make the adventure itself canon - it would simply then be a non-canon manner of depicting events that we were told about. It's just an unofficial adventure because it is online, free, and S&S may/may-not be allowed to publish moduals. Being online and free have absolutey nothing to do with it. How the product is distributed, and for how much, aren't factors of canonity. That S&SS may not have allowed the Kargatane to publish official words is the kicker. If I were to write an adventure about Azalin's return from his apparent destruction and call it Death Unimpeded and post it on my website for download, the fact that we know those events took place (see Gaz II) wouldn't make that canon. It's just a case of something non-canon referring to a canon product. And while there are official web products these are ussually suplemental to a product you are required to purchase such as errata or web enhancements. The fact that they are supplemental is irrelevant - it's still an instance of a free, official product available for download. And are done by on the official website by the publisher and writers. And Secrets of the Kargatane is no longer the official site, so official producs probably can't be posted. They can't be now. But those last two products were posted before the Bookshop closed its doors, so that wasn't necessarily a problem for them - unless S&SS yanked their ability to produce official goods prior to them resigning it when they closed down.
#8 john_w._mangrum Nov 08, 2003 16:37:56	They're unofficial because Arthaus had nothing to do with them. Fairly self-explanatory.
#9 The_Jester Nov 08, 2003 17:25:20	Originally posted by Alzrius Where exactly in VRA does it refer to SotK? Even, though, if VRA does refer to such events, that doesn't make the adventure itself canon - it would simply then be a non-canon manner of depicting events that we were told about. Okay, spoiler here: In Shadow of the Knife the new Bloody Jack is revealed to be a dopelganger golem created by a golem maker previously found in Children of the Night: The Created who learned his skills from VanRichten and his Guide to Created. In VRA in the Alchemy section -penned by a Pardion- it mentions a recent incident in the domain involving a golem and a creater inspired by VanRichten. Check it out. Pretty heavy reference to the events of SotK, the author knew what the adventure had planned. So while it may not be an official product and officially canon, for all intended purposes it is canon. I'd bet good dollars to donuts that when the Gaz reacher Pardion it mentions the SotK events unless the author is a radish.
#10 zombiegleemax Nov 08, 2003 21:43:53	Originally posted by Alzrius My one question is, why were both made to be unofficial? I thought that the Kargatane were empowered to make official products, and that these two would be them. Certainly, it would have been a great way to go out. Likewise, since CotN: Demons was on their product review page under the Accessories tab, next to the other products with the RL banner, I thought for sure that meant it was going to be an official RL product. You're confusing two different things.... When Ravenloft was cancelled by WotC, they empowered us to produce "official" products online for Ravenloft. This included CotN: Demons, which we started working on and (as you note) included it under the "Accessories" list of official products. As soon as the license was sold to S&SS, that all went out the window. While we Kargatane were still the "official fan website", we no longer had any right to product official products - we were just fans, and sometimes freelancers for S&SS. Hence, CotN: D etc. is not official. Stu
#11 Alzrius Nov 08, 2003 23:48:23	Originally posted by Kargatane As soon as the license was sold to S&SS, that all went out the window. While we Kargatane were still the "official fan website", we no longer had any right to product official products - we were just fans, and sometimes freelancers for S&SS. Hence, CotN: D etc. is not official. Stu Ahh, okay, that clears it all up! Thanks for the 411 Stu!
#12 Alzrius Nov 08, 2003 23:50:00	Originally posted by The_Jester I'd bet good dollars to donuts that when the Gaz reacher Pardion it mentions the SotK events unless the author is a radish. It's a bet then! We'll resume this debate sometime in mid-2009. :D