* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Sleep spell too powerful in OD&D? Started at 07-10-07 11:33 PM by casimps1 Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=883731 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : casimps1 Date : 07-10-07 11:33 PM Thread Title : Sleep spell too powerful in OD&D? So, I've been DM'ing a few people new to D&D through some OD&D (Mentzer) adventures. They are all 1st level characters currently and I've started to notice that the availability of the Sleep spell at these low levels easily shifts battles from "you might die" to "trivially easy". Since the sleep spell targets up to 16 Hit Dice worth of creatures in a 40' x 40' area and allow no saving throw it seems awfully powerful for a 1st level spell. In fact, it seems idiotic for a 1st level magic-user/elf to choose anything other than a sleep spell. It also makes it difficult to provide a challenging battle for an adventure. Since Sleep automatically works on any creature 4 HD or less, I would have to place a 5 HD creature in order to prevent the Sleep insta-kill problem. Just about any other encounter can be instantly won with the Sleep spell. This creates a huge leap in difficulty from 1-4 HD to 5+ HD creatures rather than the smooth gradient that you would expect. It's not very dramatic when you get to the end of the orc lair where the powerful orc chieftain and orc magic-user (3 HD each) are and the Sleep spell just instantly takes them out. Without the spell, this would have been a very challenging battle for them. Anyway, I think I've kinda made my point... does anyone have any suggestions for how to deal with this? Or reasons why I shouldn't worry about it? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : Llwch Date : 07-10-07 11:46 PM Thread Title : Re: Sleep spell too powerful in OD&D? So, I've been DM'ing a few people new to D&D through some OD&D (Mentzer) adventures. They are all 1st level characters currently and I've started to notice that the availability of the Sleep spell at these low levels easily shifts battles from "you might die" to "trivially easy". Since the sleep spell targets up to 16 Hit Dice worth of creatures in a 40' x 40' area and allow no saving throw it seems awfully powerful for a 1st level spell. In fact, it seems idiotic for a 1st level magic-user/elf to choose anything other than a sleep spell. It also makes it difficult to provide a challenging battle for an adventure. Since Sleep automatically works on any creature 4 HD or less, I would have to place a 5 HD creature in order to prevent the Sleep insta-kill problem. Just about any other encounter can be instantly won with the Sleep spell. This creates a huge leap in difficulty from 1-4 HD to 5+ HD creatures rather than the smooth gradient that you would expect. I hear ya, but you've got to consider the limitations of the spell. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I always understood that this spell effected creatures based on hit dice, starting with the lowest hit dice, and then moving up. In order to effect a higher hit die creature, it needs to effect its full hit dice (so if the monster has 4 HD, and 2HD of the 16HD remain, the 4HD creature would be completely uneffected). Also, space limitations need to be considered. What if the room is larger than 40x40? What if the creatures are spaced out in order to not be effected by such spells (any creature of average intelligence or higher, that has experienced magic used against it or its allies might think to avoid area spells by spacing out a bit)? Yes, if the badguys all march in neat, close order rows, then yes, they will be effected. If ya give the monsters full credit for the smarts they have (even kobolds are smart enough to learn, and if well organized, can be quite deadly. Ever play "Dragon Mountain"?), then spells like this become less of a game-breaker. Powerful? Absolutely. But reasonably so, IMHO. One other note... If you really want to give your PCs a scare, have them face a goblin, kobold or orc shaman who likes to use sleep spells too... :devil: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : RobertFisher Date : 07-11-07 09:47 AM Thread Title : Re: Sleep spell too powerful in OD&D? I didn't find that it ruined anything in the classic D&D campaign I ran recently. It was kind of cool when it was used, but the elf had to be judicious with it. She couldn't always use it both because she didn't have an infinite number of spell slots & because there were occasionally situations in which it just wasn't an option. Now, when they got out into the wilderness, it became much more useful. Since they'd typically have no more than two encounters per day, both Sleep & Hold Person cut short huge numbers of encounters. But, in the wilderness, there were more encounters that those spells wouldn't work on. Plus, they weren't getting a lot of treasure (i.e. XP) from those encounters, so it wasn't so bad. Once they'd find a point-of-interest, things would be more dungeon-like & the importance of those spells decreased again. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : timoteob Date : 07-11-07 03:06 PM Thread Title : Re: Sleep spell too powerful in OD&D? It has been a long time, but if memory servers me correctly, undead are immune to sleep spells. Some Zombies and Skeletons under the control of an evil cleric/orcish shaman should spice things up! Also, arm your some of your orcs with bows and station them 40+Feet away. Or you could add a dozen or so orcs to your encounter as "sleep spell fodder" for each sleep spell the party has memorized, on the assumption that they will goto sleep. Timoteob -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : Valadrim Date : 07-12-07 07:17 AM Thread Title : Re: Sleep spell too powerful in OD&D? While the "sleep spell fodder" idea does have some merit, you have to be careful that your players wont see this situation as justification for their present tactics, and wish to stock up on the spell even more. "Man that battle was crazy, if you did take out those dozen orcs with the sleep spell we never would have won against the shaman. Maybe next time you should have two sleep spells, one for the minons, and one for the leaders!" Thus starting a fodder/sleep spell arms race. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : Llwch Date : 07-12-07 07:32 AM Thread Title : Re: Sleep spell too powerful in OD&D? While the "sleep spell fodder" idea does have some merit, you have to be careful that your players wont see this situation as justification for their present tactics, and wish to stock up on the spell even more. "Man that battle was crazy, if you did take out those dozen orcs with the sleep spell we never would have won against the shaman. Maybe next time you should have two sleep spells, one for the minons, and one for the leaders!" Thus starting a fodder/sleep spell arms race. The "Spell Arms Race" is rather unlikely. I've been DMing BECMI, 1st Edition and 2nd Edition AD&D for *years*, and have never had any problems with players overusing sleep spells. In my campaigns, I mix it up enough where walking around with sleep spells won't work all the time - and at any rate, other spells will be needed too. Plus, there's the issue of undead. They're always immune to sleep. This is a good way to "break" players of over reliance on it. Having their opponents spread out over a large area is always a good tactic. Heck, some monsters (like hobgoblins) might send goblins ahead to "soak" damage (and spells) off the players first, then engage once they have fired off a lot of their magic already. Or, some of the opposing side might hang back, and wake up anyone who falls asleep. Of course, there's also the issue where even average intelligence foes will recognize spell casting - and will do all they can do disrupt it. Just my two cents. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : tankschmidt Date : 07-12-07 08:44 AM Thread Title : Re: Sleep spell too powerful in OD&D? Is this Menzter D&D or OD&D? I may be confused, but aren't elves 90% immune to sleep/charm in Menzter D&D? I may be completely wrong - sometimes the games blend together. If that's the case, though, try a tribe of evil elves! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : SamualT Barronsword Date : 07-12-07 05:57 PM Thread Title : Re: Sleep spell too powerful in OD&D? The OD&D (Mentzer) version does sound a bit more powerful than 1st and 2nd edition AD&D versions of that spell. In the AD&D versions you had to roll dice to see how many creatures were affected. 1st edition gave a graduated scale based on HD of creatures, ranging from 4D4 (4-16) 1 HD to no more than 1 to 2 (1/2d4, round off) 4 HD creature. In 2nd edition the spell could affect 2 to 8 (2d4) HD of creatures which were under 4HD. One thing in AD&D versions at least, (don't know about Mentzer OD&D) to keep in mind is that sleep is not a targeted spell. The caster can knock out his own people (including himself) accidently if they are less than 4 hit die and within the spells area of effect. He might also knock out other creatures he didn't intend to, like the horses the players/bad guys are riding, the peasants being held captive by the bad guys, the chickens in the chicken coop, etc. These creatures HD count against the total HD the spell can effect, whether the caster intended them to be affected or not. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : wavelength Date : 07-12-07 09:36 PM Thread Title : Re: Sleep spell too powerful in OD&D? I'm in agreeance with the OP. It's always frustrated me as a DM how powerful Sleep is for a first level spell - invariably the first spell learnt/memorised by a MU and able to take out a (relatively) large party or higher level foe with ease. My suggestion is to give each of those in the area of effect a saving throw (not sure why this wasn't always the case really) or perhaps increasing the spell level to 2nd or even 3rd. Another way would be to make the spell only work on "unsuspecting" targets (think the Wicked Witch of the West's Sleep spell on Dorothy and Co in Wizard of Oz) i.e. Sleep aint gonna work on that adrenalin pumped goblin running into battle. Just my 2 electrum pieces. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : Varl Date : 07-13-07 10:38 AM Thread Title : Re: Sleep spell too powerful in OD&D? Or you could add a dozen or so orcs to your encounter as "sleep spell fodder" for each sleep spell the party has memorized, on the assumption that they will goto sleep. This tactic is fine, but don't let the players know you've done this. It needs to appear as the number of orcs is what it is regardless of the spells they possess. Develop the encounter to the characters, not to the spells they possess. Sleep is going to affect what it affects; don't change the numbers of foes midstream because you didn't anticipate or predict in advance how devastating a Sleep spell ends up being. That's deux ex machina. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : Patrick Sullivan Date : 07-13-07 04:05 PM Thread Title : Re: Sleep spell too powerful in OD&D? When I first started DMing OD&D in the eighties, I felt the same way as the OP, and I even made Sleep into a second level spell for a couple years. Eventually, though, I reversed my decision. A healthy mix of encounters can keep players guessing, and it's not necessarily a bad thing for a low-level magic user to make a big difference once or twice a day, since the rest of the time he or she is basically just baggage. That being said, I never let elves take Sleep or Magic Missle at first level. A couple more strategies to realistically DM the Sleep spell... Any baddies who are still awake will notice right away and adjust their tactics accordingly--either retreating (with as much loot as they can easily carry) or redirecting their attacks. The first time the two biggest orcs see their comrades fall to the floor and shout "Hey! Get that mage!" will definitely give the magic user's player a nice scare. Clever use of traps can also help reduce the effectiveness of Sleep. A simple alarm trap that keeps making noise throughout the battle might be enough to wake the victims of a Sleep spell. You could record a particularly annoying car alarm and play it on endless loop during the encounter :) Or use poison gas, dust, gnats, or something similar to prevent the magic user from concentrating, at least for the first few rounds. By that time, the monsters will be in the thick of the party, bringing the previously-mentioned targeting issues. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : casimps1 Date : 07-20-07 11:48 PM Thread Title : Re: Sleep spell too powerful in OD&D? Any baddies who are still awake will notice right away and adjust their tactics accordingly--either retreating (with as much loot as they can easily carry) or redirecting their attacks. The first time the two biggest orcs see their comrades fall to the floor and shout "Hey! Get that mage!" will definitely give the magic user's player a nice scare. I like this suggestion a lot! Will definitely give this a try. Realistic, enhances storytelling, and doesn't feel like bending the rules! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : chatdemon Date : 07-31-07 06:11 PM Thread Title : Re: Sleep spell too powerful in OD&D? The quickest and easiest way to put a halt to abuse of Sleep (or any spell, really) is to use it against the party, then explain to the players why you did it. You don't have to be totally evil and have the NPCs or monsters kill every PC, they can be captured instead. Or, create some sort of magic that protects from sleep magic. Give it to select monsters or NPCs. Or, if all else fails, just don't allow the sleep spell at all. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : casimps1 Date : 08-01-07 11:40 AM Thread Title : Re: Sleep spell too powerful in OD&D? The quickest and easiest way to put a halt to abuse of Sleep (or any spell, really) is to use it against the party, then explain to the players why you did it. You don't have to be totally evil and have the NPCs or monsters kill every PC, they can be captured instead. I don't know about this idea... it doesn't seem like it would teach the players anything except how powerful the spell really is. It also doesn't seem very fair or realistic to say "Well, since you guys are using Sleep so much, the kobold mage in the corner casts sleep on YOU!" It almost seems like it fosters antagonism and competition between player and DM rather than everyone trying to have fun. Or perhaps I'm just missing your point. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : RobertFisher Date : 08-01-07 01:27 PM Thread Title : Re: Sleep spell too powerful in OD&D? The quickest and easiest way to put a halt to abuse of Sleep (or any spell, really) is to use it against the party, then explain to the players why you did it. Are you saying that the lesson the PCs should take from this is to voluntarily use Sleep less often? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : chatdemon Date : 08-01-07 10:13 PM Thread Title : Re: Sleep spell too powerful in OD&D? Are you saying that the lesson the PCs should take from this is to voluntarily use Sleep less often? In my situation, that was the result. I explained to them that I'm here to have fun too, and having them walk over every minor encounter with the use of one spell is boring and annoying. We've since come to an understanding that "if the party does it all the time, the monsters will do it some of the time". I don't mind the spell when used now and then, but as with others, there was a time when it was abused. Of course, I realize that approach wont work with every group, but for me at least, it did. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : RobertFisher Date : 08-03-07 12:49 PM Thread Title : Re: Sleep spell too powerful in OD&D? In my situation, that was the result. I explained to them that I'm here to have fun too, and having them walk over every minor encounter with the use of one spell is boring and annoying. We've since come to an understanding that "if the party does it all the time, the monsters will do it some of the time". As I recall, Gygax offered up much the same solution to the question of poison in oAD&D. For myself, with sleep, I think I'd rather either figure out how to deal with it or house-rule it. Though I'm not sure what makes me want to treat these two areas differently. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Author : GreyLord Date : 08-08-07 10:58 PM Thread Title : Re: Sleep spell too powerful in OD&D? Hmm, first problem I noted... You actually let them choose their first spells? I suppose I'm a major evil DM. Secondly...don't the magic-users only get ONE spell at first level...increasing to TWO spells at second. They probably will have more than one encounter whilst in the dungeon I'd imagine...what happens when they run out of sleep spells? And then of course if they leave to restock, I'd imagine the other denizens of the dungeon could easily discover that a battle had taken place, at the very least that they are missing several many of their fellow evil friends...and plan accordingly to counter any such measures the party throws next time...perhaps even laying traps down and ambushes and all sorts of other items if the party so chooses to return after leaving... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Author : migo Date : 08-21-07 04:52 AM Thread Title : Re: Sleep spell too powerful in OD&D? How is it overpowered? They get to cast it once @ 1st level. Give them more than one encounter. Problem solved. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 20] Author : DCAnderson Date : 08-21-07 10:23 AM Thread Title : Re: Sleep spell too powerful in OD&D? As I recall, Gygax offered up much the same solution to the question of poison in oAD&D. For myself, with sleep, I think I'd rather either figure out how to deal with it or house-rule it. Though I'm not sure what makes me want to treat these two areas differently. Gary Gygax is kind of notorious for bad roleplaying advice. Punishing your players for using good tactics just makes you a jerk. There are some basic work arounds for sleep: Spread enemies out, make them come from multiple sides: If the player can't catch all the enemies with the spell it doesn't do as much good. Have enemies close into melee early with the group: Unless the party is made up of all elves, the caster won't want to risk hitting his friends. Use enemies that sleep won't effect: Skeletons, Zombies, Elves. Even just the occasional 5HD creature will do. Ambush Tactics: Enemies in D&D should be well aware of the threat lightly armored guys in robes pose. Have the enemies try to take out the spellcaster early. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 21] Author : kengar Date : 08-22-07 09:59 AM Thread Title : Re: Sleep spell too powerful in OD&D? Sleep is undoubtably one of the more useful spells at low levels. I even recommend it to novice players ("Oh. Sleep defnitiely rocks. It's totally worth it. The other spells are cool too, but Sleep can save your bacon.") The obvious limitations (undead, higher HD creatures, limited spell slots) have already been posted. Personally, I think a player of a low-level M-U/Elf deserves that occasional moment in the spotlight. The elf/M-U route is a rough path to take: slow XP/level progression, lousy HP, very limited spells at low levels, etc. Letting the M-U take out some baddies with a spell once a day? Totally worth it. Just don't make it a "gimme" (playing the creatures really stupidly) or the only encounter for the day (so the fighters get a chance to mix things up). Another tactic to take is to offer the low level caster more options. Let him find the spell book of a dead elf or M-U (i.e. the last party that tried the crawl). In the book are a couple of spells he doesn't have. Now he can copy them into his spell book! Hooray! (Note: I usually house-rule that all M-Us and Elves start with Read Magic + one other 1st level spell.) But wait, he doesn't have any more spell slots, just more options. 9 times out of 10, the player is gonna want to try out his new spells at some point, but that means not memorizing Sleep. :D The best part about this tactic is everyone wins. The DM sees less of the "one trick pony" short-circuiting his encounters, and the player is actually thrilled because the DM was nice and gave him more spells as loot! Wotta guy! ;) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 22] Author : Cab Date : 08-22-07 10:08 AM Thread Title : Re: Sleep spell too powerful in OD&D? Anyway, I think I've kinda made my point... does anyone have any suggestions for how to deal with this? Or reasons why I shouldn't worry about it? If a mage saves that one spell for taking out the chief of an orc clan, then odds are the party got beaten up pretty badly by his bodyguards. If the mage didn't save it for the chief of the orc clan, then odds are the chief will beat them up. However you look at it, its one spell that a first level mage can cast once per day at most. In (number of years deleted to save on embarassment) years od playtesting, I have never found it to be unbalancing. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 23] Author : Hugin Date : 08-24-07 09:42 AM Thread Title : Re: Sleep spell too powerful in OD&D? Another tactic to take is to offer the low level caster more options. Let him find the spell book of a dead elf or M-U (i.e. the last party that tried the crawl). In the book are a couple of spells he doesn't have. Now he can copy them into his spell book! Hooray! (Note: I usually house-rule that all M-Us and Elves start with Read Magic + one other 1st level spell.) But wait, he doesn't have any more spell slots, just more options. 9 times out of 10, the player is gonna want to try out his new spells at some point, but that means not memorizing Sleep. :D The best part about this tactic is everyone wins. The DM sees less of the "one trick pony" short-circuiting his encounters, and the player is actually thrilled because the DM was nice and gave him more spells as loot! Wotta guy! ;) Great suggestion! Another reason to be thoughtful about the timing of gifting spells to PCs. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:23 AM.