The rule states that it is to reflect the exhaustion inherent in casting "the powerful spells of High Sorcery."
It later goes on to say that "whenever a character casts an arcane spell...."
I'm curious if this is only supposed to affect actual Wizards of High Sorcery or any character that casts any sort of arcane spell at all (not including bards I would think)? I enjoy the flavor the rule gives the world (especially for those of us who have read the novels) but it seems a bit harsh to make ALL arcane spellcasters suffer from it. Anyway, thoughts?
But it most definately has to be devine intervention...so to me that says it can only effect WoHS.
Originally posted by RandPC
Were I to use the rule I'd probably apply it to any character casting arcane spells.
What, including sorcerers? How about dragons?
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
What, including sorcerers? How about dragons?
Cheers,
Cam
Don't forget our ol' pals the Auraks and Bozaks.
I was actually thinking of instituting the reverse of the CotM in my game. It would be called Deific Fatigue, which affects only divine agents such as Clerics, Druids, and Rangers. It was designed to offset the seemingly endless versatility of those classes.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
What, including sorcerers? How about dragons?
Cheers,
Cam
Sorcerers excluded, I failed to mention it but I was thinking purely of those characters that had to prepare arcane spells.
Spontanious casters like Sorcerers would be immune to it's effects.
I havent given much thought on the rule however, as while it's flavour seems well suited to DragonLance it strikes me as something that would be an extremely unbalancing detriment to any class subject to it's effects.
But, anyway, is there anything in print on how this rule is supposed to be used (not just our opinions)?
Either way, I think I'll use it but apply it only to the WoHS prst class. Makes the most sense to me and seems to give us the game closest to the books. Also explains why WoHS in the early books were weakened by spellcasting while sorcerers (in the later books) seemed to find it filled them with more energy and vitality. lol
Tas
Otherwise renegades and sorcerers wouldn't exist at all. In my way of thinking magic is there for anyone who wants to us it. WoHS choose to use it with more restrictions because it is safer and because they trust the rules the gods of magic have outlined. That's why I think WoHS should be the only ones to get this curse. Anyway, just my thoughts.
I like the rule. It fits the relatively low magic world, at least in the Fantasy worlds. In DL, there are MAYBE 5 high level mages (3 heads, Raistlin and Dalamar in earlier times...) FR has- Elminster, 4 or so of the 7 sisters, Manshoon, whatever the head Red Wizard name was, Khelben.... It adds flavor. You don't have to use it, if you don't want to.
I like the rule. It fits the relatively low magic world, at least in the Fantasy worlds. In DL, there are MAYBE 5 high level mages (3 heads, Raistlin and Dalamar in earlier times...) FR has- Elminster, 4 or so of the 7 sisters, Manshoon, whatever the head Red Wizard name was, Khelben.... It adds flavor. You don't have to use it, if you don't want to.
As for dragons, they're power incarnate, so would the rule even apply to them? I'd only use it for mortal spellcasters personally.
If I were a player, I would rather just role-play this out, rather than have a rule. If I were a DM, I'd allow the player to use the rule if he wanted, but I wouldn't force him.
I wanted to touch upon a post above while I'm at it...
Originally posted by vader42xx
See, that's where I don't agree. I don't think renegades use the same magic as WoHS do.
There are two types of arcane magic in the world of Krynn: High Sorcery and Wild (or primal) Sorcery. High Sorcery is what wizards use, and Wild Sorcery is what bards and sorcerers use.
Renegades are those who practice arcane magic outside of the laws and tenets of the Wizards of High Sorcery who can cast powerful enough magic (3rd level arcane spells or higher).
So technically, a renegade wizard is using the same magic as a WoHS. He just doesn't gain the benefit of moon magic.
As for sorcerers and bards, they would both be renegades.
Magic is there for anyone to use...it's not provied by the gods. They just have dominion over it.
If that were entirely the case, then High Sorcery would still be around after the Chaos War. I do think the Moon Gods allow anyone to use arcane magic, and I think they leave the policing of magic to the WoHS, as they are bound not to interfere with the free will of mortals.
That's why the gods can't just "stop" renegades from casting spells the way a god can with divine spells.
In either Soulforge or Brothers in Arms, Nuitari takes the magic of a black robe who was not following the tenets of the WoHS.
I really don't agree with this, and prefer that the moon gods not just take magic away, but there is precedent.
Really, I hate to say it, but the state of affairs with arcane magic is somewhat confusing and contradictory. Do moon gods take magic away, or was that a kender tale? How do the moon gods relate exactly with magic?
I'm hoping that Towers of High Sorcery will clarify some of these things.
If anything this rule variant should MAYBE apply to WoHS prestige class since most will agree it is fairly powerful. After all they are the only ones (unless I'm mistaken) that gain the benefits of the moons.
Originally posted by Peyotie
Thats really kind of silly. Isn't the curse of the magi supposed to be based on the kind of trauma spell casters are putting their bodies through? If so then how do you justify sorcerers as NOT being affected? Its still channeling through their bodies...just like a book caster.
I agree. I think it was Palin who demonstrated how sorcerers could feel exhaustion in the Dragons of a New Age trilogy.
If anything this rule variant should MAYBE apply to WoHS prestige class since most will agree it is fairly powerful. After all they are the only ones (unless I'm mistaken) that gain the benefits of the moons.
Correct. Only those with the WoHS prestige class gain the benefits of the waxing and waning of the moons.
There has been some confusion as to whether this rule applies to sorcerers or not. I checked the DLCS, and it said that this affects those who use High Sorcery (ergo wizards).
One could adapt this for use with sorcerers if they wanted to, though.
As for why this would only affect wizards, I would say that this is because the magic of High Sorcery is god-enhanced, and is supposed to be more powerful than Wild Sorcery.
In a way, think of it as the result of giving one's all to the magic.
So if this rule is used, High Magic should be strengthened, or sorcerers should be weakened.
As an example.
Perhaps all magic cast by users of High Magic gets a +2 to save DC's, but the caster is affected by the Curse of the Magi.
Or Sorcerers have a restricted spell list....only elemental type magics and other spells similar to what they were allowed in SAGA, which would put a lot of useful spells on the Wizard lists out of their reach.
Banshee
Dragonhelm made a few interesting points I'd like to comment on.
I know various DL novels mention magic being taken away (Palin towards the end of the War of Souls for instance...but this was as he was being brought back to life so that could easily be why they were able). But there really isn't anything solid to say the gods of magic can take away the art from those they choose. During the Summer of Chaos they were almost powerless to do anything against the gray robes and I do believe they would have if there were able. Same goes for the second dragon war and Galen Dracos. So, in my take on Krynn, the gods of magic don't actually have the ability (under normal circumstances) to just take magic away from someone. Seems to fit much better with the way the "main" books have been written.
Also, regarding renegades, something needs to be done with them. As it stands there is almost no reason to play a renegade (save maybe playing a sorcerer). Renegade wizards have no more power than a WoHS and they were supposed to. One of the reasons they were feared (both by the gods and the WoHS) was the fact that they had more power and it was less controlled. Unless you apply something like the curse of the magi to WoHS and not renegades there really is no difference other than being hunted...in fact, WoHS might actually be MORE powerfull and that's certainly not the feel DL was supposed to give. lol Also, it seems to me (even if they didn't actually mean to) renegades never really tired of spellcasting the way WoHS do. Even in The Legend of Huma you'll find that Magius (early on) uses spells freely and even casts spells for such simple things as keeping rain water and mud off of himself. lol But, once he takes the robes of a WoHS, he tires of spellcasting much easier and it is only then that Galen Dracos is finally able to capture him. And did so with just a bunch of fighters no less...when earlier (during his renegade period) even several dragons had failed at this task. lol
As for sorcerers...everything I've read indicats that they had a much easier time of spellcasting but I must admit that it's been a long time since I read any of the early fifth age books so I might not be right about that. I'm almost done rereading Dragons of Summer Flame so I'll be getting to those books soon and I'll have a better idea. For now, however, I probably wouldn't apply the CotM to sorcerers simply because they are not followers of the gods and, so, don't have to face the god imposed restrictions on magic. Besides, as a game issue, they are already weak enough due to their limited selection of spells. Doing anything more to them would make them a bad class to even take.
So, finally, I agree that there are only two types of arcane magic in Krynn...but I don't believe that there are only two types of ways to go about casting it.
Primal sorcerery can be cast by sorcerers as well as bards which is two very different ways (even WoHS don't consider bards to be arcane spellcasters).
High sorcery can be cast by wizards only but there are those who believe magic must come first and that it's too dangerous to use without a safety net. These are the WoHS and they take these god imposed restrictions because of this way of thinking. In trade they get a few secrets and there spells are empowered by the moons of magic. Renegades, on the other hand, think of themselves first and everything else second...including magic and the fate of the world. So they don't follow any of these rules and are, therefore, much more dangerous and unpredictable...but they have more power for it. Which they certainly need as they are being hunted by every WoHS on Krynn. lol This would also give the wizards of Taladas more flavor, etc.
Anyway, seems to be the system that best reflects the way the books were written...and sorry about the really long read...I hope some of you found it interesting at least. lol
Originally posted by vader42xx
But there really isn't anything solid to say the gods of magic can take away the art from those they choose.
There's a mention either in Soulforge or Brothers in Arms (can't remember which).
During the Summer of Chaos they were almost powerless to do anything against the gray robes and I do believe they would have if there were able. Same goes for the second dragon war and Galen Dracos.
Ah, but if Galan Dracos and the Thorn Knights were under the protection of Takhisis, then the moon gods may not have been able to do anything about it.
So, in my take on Krynn, the gods of magic don't actually have the ability (under normal circumstances) to just take magic away from someone. Seems to fit much better with the way the "main" books have been written.
The problem we've run into with the WoHS is that they have the potential to come across as "arcane clerics". It's easy to do with gods in the mix.
Personally, I like the idea of arcane magic in the form of High Sorcery coming from the moon gods, but I don't like the idea of the Moon Gods taking that magic away.
Divine spellcasters who gain their magic from the gods gain their magic directly from those gods. Wizards, though, have to learn how to access the power themselves. The connection isn't a direct one with the moon gods, but rather a connection to the magic itself.
Also, regarding renegades, something needs to be done with them. As it stands there is almost no reason to play a renegade (save maybe playing a sorcerer). Renegade wizards have no more power than a WoHS and they were supposed to.
I don't think it's a matter of more power, but using their power responsibly.
While playing a renegade is really not recommended, the incentive to playing one isn't in power, but in the role-playing aspects. Perhaps a wizard's father died taking the Test, and he's afraid to take it himself. Perhaps a wizard feels that the WoHS are tyrants, and shouldn't have the authority they do. Etc. etc.
Just because a WoHS has a patron deity doesn't make him a cleric, however. As Dragonhelm says, the connection a wizard makes is to the magic, not to a god. However, the WoHS have the additional benefit of having a relationship with one of the gods of magic that strengthens their magical power.
The gods of magic most likely wouldn't be able to strip away an individual's magic without actively trying to, but they could easily deny a renegade WoHS from their influences (i.e. the moon phases).
Cheers,
Cam