Scott
Originally posted by ScottyG
Blackmoor is the only one of the three that doesn’t have any current setting information available, but that should change in a month or so.
Scott
Who's writing Blackmoor?
Scott
Scott
Blackmoor is being re-issued by Ziegiest Games and published through Goodman Games. They are finalizing legal issues with Lawyers of the Coast and should be out late winter.
The Judges Guild Wilderlands is being updated to D20 by Necromancer Games. The Wilderlands Players Guidebook is just now hitting the stores and is seriously cool.
bushfire
Originally posted by Raistlin-Uber-Mage
see subject. see, i am interested in playing the orriginal setting, although there is no current setting book, as i have heard. but my friends and i play ad&d mainly, so no problem there, just gotta find an old book. so what is it like?
To quote the CF (www.canonfire.com) FAQ:
"Greyhawk is the second oldest campaign world for *D&D, predated only by Dave Arneson's Blackmoor campaign. Created by E. Gary Gygax in the early 1970's, some of the greatest characters of AD&D legend have walked its magical ground: Bigby, Tenser, Mordenkainen, Serten, Robilar, and Rary - names known to every player of AD&D. From the desolate wastes of the Sea of Dust in the west to the decadent remnants of the Great Kingdom of Aerdy in the east, from the mysterious Land of Black Ice in the north to the steaming jungles of Hepmonaland in the south, Greyhawk is, above all, one thing: adventure!"
But a better answer to your question, might be found in this inimitable (heh, heh) and much debatable essay of online legend from the archives of GREYtalk. It is still the most definitive discussion:
"What Puts the "grey" in Greyhawk?
Copyright, (the one and only) Nightscreed
What does it mean for a product, an adventure, a campaign or
even an entirely new creation to be suitably "Greyhawk?"
Criteria No. 1 Applied Internal Historic Consistency
Greyhawk has a strong internal sense of history that is consistently
applied in all "Greyhawk" products or creations. However, not every
product published under the name "Greyhawk" meets this criteria.
Greyhawk is a storied realm. Its seminal figures, good and ill, are
interwoven throughout the setting. The campaign world has a defined
history that strongly influences the present and future of the setting.
Greyhawk's history is not a footnote, but an integral part of the world
that
must be understood to truly comprehend the relationships among men,
nations and even gods. True "Greyhawk" products or creations build on
this history, incorporate history and develop history. The best such
products or creations leave enough open ends to allow for further such
development. More mediocre attempts seek closure of every loose thread.
Criteria No. 2 Player Resolution of Critical Events
The seminal events in Greyhawk's current history and
development are all presented such that the players may not only take
part, but play a leading role. Players defeated the hordes of the Temple
of Elemental Evil. Players defeated Lolth. Players turned the tide as Iuz
aced Vecna. Players could fight the Greyhawk Wars.
In the Forgotten Realms, for example, Ao decrees an event and
the players get to clean up in the aftermath. Cyric destroys Zhentil Keep
offstage and the players get to delve into the ruins. Gods die to be
replaced by mortals and the players watch. Elminster sends players on a
mission but ultimately keeps from them the greater goal the mission
serves.
When you play in Greyhawk, you join in the weaving of a tapestry
of which you are a vital part. Greyhawk is about your story in the context
of Greyhawk's story. Roleplaying in Greyhawk involves playing your part
in the longest running AD&D campaign in existence. Greyhawk is bigger
than you are, but you can become as great as it is. That is the essence of
Greyhawk's history. It enfolds, informs and connects every part of the
setting and all who play there for any length of time.
Criteria No. 3 NPCs Reward More Often Than They Advise or Direct
NPC's in Greyhawk are not godlike figures who direct the course of events
upon which your character is washed like the tide. Though at times you may
feel as if events are guided by forces beyond your control. There
are "wheels within wheels" in Greyhawk. Behind each person lurks
another, the circles growing ever wider and the figures shadowy, but very
powerful.
Neither do NPCs persistently show up to advise you. The Circle of Eight
are aloof. They do not want to be your buddy. Neither do they have a
laundry list of chores for you to perform. Rather, in Greyhawk you will
find adventure without such NPCs suggesting it.
NPCs may advise or direct, but more often they serve as the
measuring stick against which your character's performance can be
judged. If your character's actions appeal to their personalities or serve
their ultimate goals, they may reward your character by recognizing your
accomplishments or possibly admitting your character into their august
company.
In the Forgotten Realms, for example, Elminster is famous for sending
characters on their way. The Harpers do the same. Ultimately, Elminster or
the Harpers play the directing role and may indeed appear to steal the
show or otherwise claim ultimate victory.
In Greyhawk, YOU are the hero. Without assistance from the likes
of the Circle of Eight and without them acting as a safety net, you will
venture forth to create your own mark on the world. You can go your own
way, in fact, without them ever troubling you. This cannot be said of
other settings such as the Forgotten Realms and forms the basis for
Criteria No. 2 (Player Resolution of Critical Events in Greyhawk vs. NPC
Resolution of Critical Events in the Forgotten Realms).
Criteria No. 4 Persistent Personified Evil
Evil in Greyhawk is persistent. It is halted, checked or imprisoned, but
it is not defeated with finality for all time. The triumph over evil is a
relative thing, ultimately transitory.
Evil in Greyhawk is personified. Evil has faces and names
attached to it that ring down through the setting's history. It is not an
evil that pops up purely to give the players something to strive against
and defeat before moving on to the next evil that similarly appears out of
relative nowhere.
Vecna, Iuz, Lolth, Tharzidun, the Scarlet Brotherhood, Aerdi, Kas and even
Turrosh Mak all meet this criteria. They are highly personified evil
forces that spring from the settings specific history. By comparison, evil
in the Forgotten Realms is of the pop-up variety save for the Red Wizards
and Zhentrim. Menaces appear from nowhere or with on the spot histories
that never before appeared in the setting. Greyhawk allows for this type
of toaster villainy, but it also established from the first, villains
of
a historic character that transcend the needs of the adventure of the
moment.
Criteria No. 5 Villainous Variety
Villainy in Greyhawk runs the gamut from the cosmic menace of Tharzidun to
the purely moral menace of Turrosh Mak and from the planar peril of Lolth
to the cambion menace of Iuz. There is variety in the villainy. Villainy
in Greyhawk is like a box of chocolates from Hell; you never know for sure
what you are going to get (see the Giant Series). Greyhawk's villains do
not announce themselves; you have to figure it out for yourself.
Compare villainy in the Forgotten Realms. The variety isn't there. You
have scads of godly villains; the Red Wizards, the Zhents. It is feast or
famine. Forgotten Realms villains have signature trademarks that all but
announce who you are facing, unless of course it is an evil toaster
pastry.
Villains in Greyhawk will also turn on each other. The Iuz vs. Vecna
conflict being perhaps the most infamous. In other settings, villains are
villains, identified by their clearly visible placards, sandwich signs or
more "subtly" their black attire. You can count on them to always do the
wrong thing.
Greyhawk keeps you guessing. Like a good Call of Cthulthu adventure.
Criteria No. 6 Heroism With a Price
Greyhawk's heros rarely slay the evil wizard, who will trouble the land no
more, to the full voiced cheers of the crowd. Best Iuz and you are marked.
He will be back, but you will have to deal with a likely enraged
Zuggotomy in the meantime. Greyhawk's villains don't exist in a vacuum
and neither do Greyhawk's heroes. Everything is linked.
Heroism has a meaning within the setting that makes it more than a
solitary act echoing in the vastness. It attracts attention, good and ill.
It is immediate and brings a notoriety that other settings can only talk
about (see the City of Skulls Notoriety Point system). Notables exist to
recognize your accomplishments, to measure you against themselves and
the foe you defeated. NPCs will have likely played little or no role in
your victory. Evil too takes your measure, albeit for darker reasons.
This criterion can best be seen in the breach. The interconnection of
people and places and the loose ends creates this effect, though few
published adventures use it to motivate future adventures. The revised
supermodule series provides the greatest opportunity on this score.
Criteria No. 7 Militant Neutrality
On Oerth, the forces of neutrality are arguably at least as powerful as
those of good and evil and certainly as active.
Iquander alone has accurately defined this characteristic of
Greyhawk and I acknowledge his work. Greyhawk is not concerned with
the triumph of good over evil. The very nature of the evils loose on Oerth
makes such triumphs fleeting at best. Greyhawk endures and circumvents
evil, but does not defeat it.
Evil forces, of course, will attempt to conquer Oerth. Just as certainly,
there will be forces who seek to banish evil from the world. Neither will
succeed. Neither in the long history of Oerth has ever succeeded. Good and
evil are well enough entrenched within the world and matched in power that
outcomes are never certain. Victory is never outright, more often than not
it is measured in close calls one way or the other.
Moreover, evil on Oerth is not monolithic. Various demon lords and ladies
contend with each other. Iuz battles Vecna. Kas seeks Vecna's destruction.
Iuz feuds with his mother and father. Evil beings are true to no one save
themselves.
Perhaps accounting for all of this, Oerth has strong and active neutrally
aligned forces, working to preserve a balance between good and evil. While
hardly organized, these forces nonetheless manage to be quite effective.
The Circle of Eight, mighty wizards all, seek a middle path. Istus, the
divine Lady of Fate, tests all but favors none. Druids are a quiet but
ever present presence. Indeed, many of Greyhawk's deities reflect a
distinct neutral bent.
Compare Toril. Evil is overmatched by Elminster, the Seven
Sisters (good aligned minions of the goddess of magic), the Harpers, the
Lords of Waterdeep and activist gods. Evil is on the run and kept that
way. It has but few strong holds and is highly transient, rarely surviving
long
enough to present more than a temporary challenge. Good triumphs on
Toril. The dragon is slain, never to rise. The horror you never heard of
before yesterday is laid to rest today. The bad gods are thrown down!
The differences could not be more striking. Greyhawk is about
struggle against evenly matched and long standing opponents. The
Forgotten Realms is about victory over transient and overmatched
opponents.
Criteria No. 8 Personal Magics
Greyhawk is not a low fantasy setting save by comparison to settings on
magical overload. Birthright is a low fantasy setting. The
Forgotten Realms is a high fantasy setting. Greyhawk falls between the
two.
What distinguishes magic in Greyhawk is that it is highly personalized.
Look at the spells; Mordenkain's this, Nystul's that or Otiluke's the
other. Magic is personalized by any wizard not of the hedge variety.
Examine the artifacts that exist in Greyhawk, created by or from powerful
individuals central to Greyhawk (see the DMG). What Birthright strives to
achieve sparingly, Greyhawk has already accomplished in fair profusion.
Spells have a history as do magic items. While there are +1 swords of no
certain fame, many are the items with specific histories (see the Greyhawk
Adventures hardback).
Similarly magical instruction in Greyhawk is personal. Greyhawk does not
know great guilds of wizards, but flourishes with a developed system of
apprenticeship. One need but look at the Circle of Eight to see this.
They, with one or possibly two exceptions, belong to no guild of mages.
Those that do belong to guilds do so as patrons at best and more probably
as figureheads. Neither can the Circle itself be considered a guild. This
mighty example and the utter lack of a single magical guild of any note,
fairly well makes the case.
These then are the eight traits that define the Greyhawk feel. Most
critical are the 1st (Applied Internal Historic Consistency), the 4th
(Persistent Personified Evil) and the 7th (Militant Neutrality) points. At
the
barest minimum to be considered truly "Greyhawk" a product or creation
must adhere to these three criteria. Better products or creations adhere
to progressively more of these criteria."
Seriously, I'd say the above post pretty much covers it, although it is a tad hostile the other settings.
Also, remember that the Greyhawk setting is built to have large "gaps" and lots of elbow room for you to change it and create your own.
Criteria No. 1 Applied Internal Historic Consistency
So you mean there is a canon that Greyhawk follows?
Well, of course there is. There is a canon to all campaigns.
Or do you mean it is followed more closely in Greyhawk than other campaigns?
Well the description given actually says the opposite, that many products released with the Greyhawk banner DON'T follow canon.
So this seems to be either irrelevant in comparison, or self-contradictory.
Criteria No. 2 Player Resolution of Critical Events
Actually, the Greyhawk Wars were fought completely off-stage. Suggestions were given for what players could do during them, but the course and end result were presented as a fait accompli. This was extended in The Adventure Begins with events like the Flight of the Fiends, and continued in The Living Greyhawk Gazzetteer with other critical events.
This should not be taken as unusual though. Whenever you deal with a published setting you must accept that the NPCs of the people writing the campaign are going to get in the official histories as completing tasks, and not your PCs. That is how it goes with such.
Criteria No. 3 NPCs Reward More Often Than They Advise or Direct
Again, not really. This very much depends on who you consider to be in charge of various things. Is the Circle of 8 everywhere? No. But a simple consideration of early modules shows that important NPCs are assumed to direct many things. T1 Village of Hommlett is chock full of NPCs willing to send the party off on their mission. The G1-3, D1-3, Q1 Giant-Drow-Lolth series assumes you are agents of the nobles of the region threatened by the giants. The A1-4 Slaver series assumes employment by important people of the Wild Coast to investigate the problem. The WG modules are mostly direct employment by the Circle of 8.
So NPCs do a lot of advising and directing in Greyhawk, even if they aren't the Circle of 8, or other major, named groups or individuals.
Criteria No. 4 Persistent Personified Evil
First, it seems the main issue is that Greyhawk has more old time villains than say the Forgotten Realms. I'm not sure how that is much of a big deal.
Second, it seems a good deal of Greyhawk villainy coming from nowhere is ignored.
The Slavers of the A series? Out of the blue.
Tharizdun? Introduced wholesale in a single module.
Vecna? A throwaway reference for a pair of artifacts turned into a nemesis.
No, Greyhawk villains appear as needed, just like other villains. And it would be boring if they didn't, and we were stuck with just three or four original villains from the folio. That would be boring indeed.
Criteria No. 5 Villainous Variety
Again, not really.
Turrosh Mak is little more than Aerdi writ small, somewhere else. Less, it is just the Bone March transplanted west. Original?
Tharizdun, Lolth, Acererak, Keraptis, even Iuz. All of extra-planar origin or with extra-planar ambitions. That seems pretty mundane and typical.
Aerdi and Ivid or the Scarlet Brotherhood? Well, that covers brute military might and sneaking assassins.
But where is the massive variety? I don't see it, just constant variations on a theme.
Criteria No. 6 Heroism With a Price
Actually, the revised supermodules offer the best examples of this not happening, beyond leading into another module series. Defeat Zuggtmoy and . . . the Scarlet Brotherhood has you kidnapped.
Defeat the Slavers and . . . Lolth tries to use you to empower her plans for conquest.
Defeat Lolth and . . . have a few token encounters of revenge.
Or if not, and considering other modules, you are typically leveling out of the range of active campaigning, so any such retribution is typically meaningless.
Criteria No. 7 Militant Neutrality
The main problem with this is how it conflicts with NPCs not doing everything. If the forces of Balance are so critical, then what are players but their tools or clean up squad?
Istus decrees, and the players observe.
Mordenkainen chooses a side, and the players are hired to enact his schemes.
I'm not seeing how this can exist in conjunction with those other points.
Criteria No. 8 Personal Magics
So a little bit of background for a few items, which any DM might be expected to provide, and slapping a few names on some spells makes Greyhawk unique?
What about the ton of FR spells named for Elminster, one of his Seven Girl Fridays, or some Lord of Waterdeep?
As for items, Ed Greenwood has provided seemingly endless articles with titles like "X Swords/Shields/Staves/Armor/Dire Space Hamster Home Living Habitat Extensions of the Realms".
So yet again, I'm not seeing anything particularly unique to Greyhawk about this.
No, overall this list seems to say much of nothing that is unique about Greyhawk in comparison to its main "competitor".
So what actually makes Greyhawk unique to me if I deny all of the above points?
When it comes down to it, absolutely nothing. At the end of the day, it is just another setting, no better or worse, no more or less, than any other. The only thing that can make it any better is me. Combined with an almost total absence of anyone else doing anything with it, that gives me nearly total freedom to do as a I please without having to worry that some future product will require massive reworking for me to add to my game. So indeed, absolutely nothing, in terms of no, or at least extremely few, products for the setting is what makes Greyhawk unique.
I wanted a world, or at least a starting point for a world. I paid for one called Greyhawk, and I've got it. Now I get to do what I want with it.
That seems unique enough to me.
I pretty much agree with most of the counterpoints given to Nitescreed's essay, which I never much cared for or agreed with. It always struck me as setting elitism and Realms bashing personified, rather than the metaphoric -one ring- benchmark for Greyhawk canon.
It's best to just ignore the platitudes, pick whichever incarnation of the campaign setting you want to embrace (Folio/Box Set, From the Ashes, the Adventure Begins or D&D Gazetteer/Living Greyhawk Gazetteer) and define everything else's canon friendliness by how well it fits into the setting as it is laid out in that source material.
Errr . . .
OK I guess.
Just argueing against something does not mean you are right.
Kilamar
Originally posted by Kilamar
Maybe they just think that your counter points are not valid.
Just argueing against something does not mean you are right.
Kilamar
Then that would suggest an offering to refute my counter points, no?
Please, feel free to prove any and all of my counter points wrong, or just invalid. I'd really like to hear solid examples of how any of those things are unique to Greyhawk, when looking at published material clearly indicates otherwise. I offered examples, citing the essay itself in several places, to show it was wrong. Where are the examples in support of it?
But if you have none, I refer you to your own point, and you haven't even managed that.
Maybe they just think that your counter points are not valid.
Basically, yeah. Why not elaborate more? Simply, I don't care nearly enough about what about strangers on the internet think to want to take the time to engage in lengthy attempts to change their minds. Let him think what he wants. Since the opinions of strangers don't matter to me, I don't care to waste the time necessary to explain why they're wrong in detail. "I disagree" is all I felt like posting, so it's all I posted.
Nothing personal, of course.
Originally posted by Yamo
Basically, yeah. Why not elaborate more? Simply, I don't care nearly enought about what about strangers on the internet think to want to take the time to engage in lengthy attempts to change their minds. Let him think what he wants. Since the opinions of strangers don't matter to me, I don't care to waste the time necessary to explain why they're wrong in detail.
Nothing personal, of course.
Then why bother participating in a forum?
If you don't care about what anyone else thinks, why bother asking?
It seems like a total waste of time to go to a forum where people are routinely asked what they think about certain things, never mind asking people what they think, if you don't care what the answers are.
Or it could just be that you are completely unable to explain why I am wrong in detail, as I took the time to explain why Nitescreed is wrong in detail, and so you come up with excuses.
Nothing personal, of course.
No, someone wanted to know why Greyhawk was so special. I took the time to answer them. You can't be bothered. Thanks for the help in supporting the setting.
Originally posted by Samwise
Criteria No. 1 Applied Internal Historic Consistency
So you mean there is a canon that Greyhawk follows?
Well, of course there is. There is a canon to all campaigns.
Or do you mean it is followed more closely in Greyhawk than other campaigns?
Well the description given actually says the opposite, that many products released with the Greyhawk banner DON'T follow canon.
So this seems to be either irrelevant in comparison, or self-contradictory.
Grand Druid Reynard Yargrove, originally male, now female, oops!
The Bringer of Doom, Canon? Monster Manual 2 says so, quite clearly and specifically in fact. Any other greyhawk source? no mention. Gary Gygax now? No, it's not canon.
That's but two examples off the top of my head, but the constant endless flamewars on the lists and forums about what is and is not canon should be proof enough that there is in fact no clearly defined definition of the "historical consistency" Nitescreed was touting.
Criteria No. 2 Player Resolution of Critical Events
Actually, the Greyhawk Wars were fought completely off-stage. Suggestions were given for what players could do during them, but the course and end result were presented as a fait accompli. This was extended in The Adventure Begins with events like the Flight of the Fiends, and continued in The Living Greyhawk Gazzetteer with other critical events.
This should not be taken as unusual though. Whenever you deal with a published setting you must accept that the NPCs of the people writing the campaign are going to get in the official histories as completing tasks, and not your PCs. That is how it goes with such.
Mordenkainens Fantastic Adventure is by far the most glaring example of this. You are expected to play the pregens, which are Mordenkainen and friends in fact!
Patriots of Ulek (which I quite enjoyed, actually, but...) teases the party with the chance to save the principality of Ulek from invasion by Turrosh Mak's orcs. Let's say the party does well and completes the adventure successfully, right? Wait a minute! The Prinicipality is still beset by orcs in later products!
Player Characters resolve critical events? BAH! Not in the published adventures they don't!
Criteria No. 3 NPCs Reward More Often Than They Advise or Direct
Again, not really. This very much depends on who you consider to be in charge of various things. Is the Circle of 8 everywhere? No. But a simple consideration of early modules shows that important NPCs are assumed to direct many things. T1 Village of Hommlett is chock full of NPCs willing to send the party off on their mission. The G1-3, D1-3, Q1 Giant-Drow-Lolth series assumes you are agents of the nobles of the region threatened by the giants. The A1-4 Slaver series assumes employment by important people of the Wild Coast to investigate the problem. The WG modules are mostly direct employment by the Circle of 8.
So NPCs do a lot of advising and directing in Greyhawk, even if they aren't the Circle of 8, or other major, named groups or individuals.
As Sam mentions, Against the Giants is a prime example of this, Archmage Lashton rounds up the party and directs them off to Sterich to fight lolth, whereupon they are railroaded through a series of epic quests resulting in a final confrontation with lolth, who they defeat, right? But there she is again in later products! I thought the PCs are resolving these things!?!
Return of the 8 is another pretty sorry example, The players start out subject to the whims of Jallarzi and her familiar, only to be directed by Warnes after that, and in the end, Mordenkainen shows up to steal the glory. Fun, no really...
The we have the most absolutely grievous perpetrator, the previously mentioned Patriots of Ulek. The party is summoned before Prince Corond of Ulek and asked to go check out Prinzefield township, ok sounds alright so far. Say they refuse, right? They are then told to go do it. Still refusing? Jailed for disobedience!?!?!?
No really, Corond was just advising them, honest...
Criteria No. 4 Persistent Personified Evil
First, it seems the main issue is that Greyhawk has more old time villains than say the Forgotten Realms. I'm not sure how that is much of a big deal.
Second, it seems a good deal of Greyhawk villainy coming from nowhere is ignored.
The Slavers of the A series? Out of the blue.
Tharizdun? Introduced wholesale in a single module.
Vecna? A throwaway reference for a pair of artifacts turned into a nemesis.
No, Greyhawk villains appear as needed, just like other villains. And it would be boring if they didn't, and we were stuck with just three or four original villains from the folio. That would be boring indeed.
As Sam was saying, Greyhawk villains are a dime a dozen, far worse than FR in this regard. FR schemes usually trace back to the Zhentarim, the Red Wizards of Thay or the Cult of the Dragon in some way, but Greyhawk's villains are varied and unrelated.
In the Slavers series, we have the slave lords.
In the Giants series it's a parade of giants with norse sounding titles.
In the Drow series it's Eclavdra and Lolth hereself.
In the Tomb of Horrors, Acererak.
In ToEE, it's the Elder ELemental God (or if you prefer Monte Cook's version, Tharizdun).
In White Plume Mountain, Keraptis.
In Vale of the Mage, its Jaran Krimeah.
In the Saltmarsh series, a cult of sahaugin.
In Scarlet Brotherhood, it's...well, duh... :D
In Patriots of Ulek, Turrosh Mak.
In Return of the 8, Tuerny.
In the Greyhawk Wars it's Iuz and Ivid.
You know, I'm just not seeing this persistant pattern Nitescreed saw, maybe it's just me though...
Criteria No. 5 Villainous Variety
I disagree with Sam, the villains, while similar in theme, are varied and unique personages.
BUT...
Nitescreed is directly contradicting his own 4th criteria here!
Criteria No. 6 Heroism With a Price
Actually, the revised supermodules offer the best examples of this not happening, beyond leading into another module series. Defeat Zuggtmoy and . . . the Scarlet Brotherhood has you kidnapped.
Defeat the Slavers and . . . Lolth tries to use you to empower her plans for conquest.
Defeat Lolth and . . . have a few token encounters of revenge.
Or if not, and considering other modules, you are typically leveling out of the range of active campaigning, so any such retribution is typically meaningless.
Indeed.
White Plume Mountain? No lingering effects.
Saga of Saltmarsh? No lingering effects.
Patriots of Ulek? No lingering effects, and considering that even if successful, you haven't defeated the main antagonist, Turrosh Mak, (do Orc warlords no longer get vengeful?) there should be some consequences.
As in any setting, most greyhawk adventures leave the lasting effects of a quest up to the DM to decide, this is in no way a feature of, or unique to, greyhawk 'flavor'.
Criteria No. 7 Militant Neutrality
The main problem with this is how it conflicts with NPCs not doing everything. If the forces of Balance are so critical, then what are players but their tools or clean up squad?
Istus decrees, and the players observe.
Mordenkainen chooses a side, and the players are hired to enact his schemes.
I'm not seeing how this can exist in conjunction with those other points.
I never accepted the militant nuetrality and Balance thing. It's just not established or stated anywhere in the canon material. IMO, it's a consensus opinion the early greyhawk online fandom came to.
Rather than be called on to prove it's not there, I defy anyone to show me a solid example that it is there, please cite your sources in detail, thanks :D
Criteria No. 8 Personal Magics
So a little bit of background for a few items, which any DM might be expected to provide, and slapping a few names on some spells makes Greyhawk unique?
What about the ton of FR spells named for Elminster, one of his Seven Girl Fridays, or some Lord of Waterdeep?
As for items, Ed Greenwood has provided seemingly endless articles with titles like "X Swords/Shields/Staves/Armor/Dire Space Hamster Home Living Habitat Extensions of the Realms".
So yet again, I'm not seeing anything particularly unique to Greyhawk about this.
Sam pretty much nailed this one.
Heck, Greyhawk has some name dropping in the phb and dmg, and some spells and items in Greyhawk Adventures, cool, eh?
FR has Forgotten Realms Adventures, Magic of Faerun, Pages from the mages, Prayers of the Faithful, Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, Cult of the Dragon, (should I go on? nah), and many, many more source books, all chock full of celebrity magic. Greyhawk is not unique, or even exceptional in this regard, it is a patently false statement.
Then why bother participating in a forum?
I participate in the ways I choose. If I have a question about the setting, I ask about it. Just because I don't feel like devoting thousands of words to every "Greyhawk versus other settings" or "what is canon" discussion doesn't mean that I don't get any use out of the forum. I get a lot of good answers to my questions here.
That's the thing. According to the 4th Criteria, they must all be different in theme as well.
Nitescreed is directly contradicting his own 4th criteria here!
If you will note, several of his criteria conflict like that. 4 conflicts with 2 as well, becuase if you resolve something, obviously the threats are no longer persistent. Likewise 6 conflicts with 2, as if there is a price, then you haven't actually resolved anything.
Rather than be called on to prove it's not there, I defy anyone to show me a solid example that it is there, please cite your sources in detail, thanks
That's easy. Sort of.
It's from the Gord books.
If they are canon for you, then it is established. If they are not canon for you, then it is a load of hooey.
But of course, that then directly conflicts with 1, as it shows there is not a consistent background.
Darn!
So in the end, most of those criteria are contradictory. I guess that's why he only expects a product to adhere to a minimum of three of them, though I'm not sure how one could be in line with more.
Originally posted by Yamo
I participate in the ways I choose. If I have a question about the setting, I ask about it. Just because I don't feel like devoting thousands of words to every "Greyhawk versus other settings" or "what is canon" discussion doesn't mean that I don't get any use out of the forum. I get a lot of good answers to my questions here.
So when people do what you require or agree with you it is fine and you will communicate with them, but if they disagree you will restrict yourself to snide comments and snubbings.
Once again, many thanks for your contributions to supporting the setting.
Originally posted by Samwise
So when people do what you require or agree with you it is fine and you will communicate with them, but if they disagree you will restrict yourself to snide comments and snubbings.
Once again, many thanks for your contributions to supporting the setting.
Might wanna take a look in a mirror for a moment, boyo...
Anyways, Greyhawk, in my opinion, is a good setting simply it gives you a nice background and history in the basic setting and lets you do whatever you want with it. Of course, if your into an original setting....prob not for you. It's the typical setting, humans in the cities, dwarves in the mountains, etc. But it's damn fun!.
Someone willing to take the time and effort to explain elements of background, provide references to specific material, and communicate with anyone who is capable of being basically civil.
OK. Did it. Now what?
It's not all that difficult to just be civil, even on the internet where you are hiding behind a computer screen. All it takes is not being rude. Even when someone disagrees with you it is not particularly onerous to simply state your reasons for disagreement, support them with references to the material, and accept those that are due to differences in campaigns and playing style.
Or are you commenting on my lack of tolerance for people who engage in gratuitous rude and offensive behavior? That I will confess to. It's one of those quirky little things about me, insisting of a little civility from people, and demonstrating to them that it goes both ways.
Originally posted by Samwise
And see what Delglath?
Someone willing to take the time and effort to explain elements of background, provide references to specific material, and communicate with anyone who is capable of being basically civil.
OK. Did it. Now what?
It's not all that difficult to just be civil, even on the internet where you are hiding behind a computer screen. All it takes is not being rude. Even when someone disagrees with you it is not particularly onerous to simply state your reasons for disagreement, support them with references to the material, and accept those that are due to differences in campaigns and playing style.
Or are you commenting on my lack of tolerance for people who engage in gratuitous rude and offensive behavior? That I will confess to. It's one of those quirky little things about me, insisting of a little civility from people, and demonstrating to them that it goes both ways.
Damn right!! If people just want to complain than ha I say! let them not read the thread, or at least not respond. Of course...then we'd have 3 whole posts in the entire Greyhawk section heheh
I for one hate the EGG of Cote being an Automaton but it's not the only artifact to go that route. I'm not high on the whole automaton thing for it's servants either. If you want to keep The EGG of Cote you could change it to an EGG shaped Stone device (Not that you can't keep it an automaton if you like) . I for one like the Temple of the Frog and using more Grippli, Grung & Bullywugs in the area of Blackmoor instead.
The Egg could be a prison created from the Oerthmagic in the area. In truth the Egg could hold a power of some kind if you like(Wastri, Vecna, or any hero-power it could be to your liking).
So while many of you reading this will think I've just taken this thread off topic. In truth I have just giving you an example of how many fans of the setting see GH. We all have our own image of what GH should be like. Plus the large gaps are quite fun to fill in. While changes can be made to any campaign setting. GH seems to have been made that way. It is simply a canvas to create from.
Originally posted by Argon
Well said Coldpenguin625,! I have changed many things in my GH campaign that most people would definitely not consider canon. It is true that different sects of GH fans will have different sets of canon. Only a few things in GH are probably considered canon by the majority of it's fans.
There's nothing wrong with that! Hey, if you know Rich and Sam, and their campaigns (as I do, being a player in Rich's and a fellow greytalk chat addict with Sam for going on 4 years), you'd realize just how little they stick to 'canon' in their greyhawks.
The many different greyhawks that belong to the many different people who participate in the online community are what forums like this and sites like Canonfire! are all about; fans with different views of the setting get together and share their ideas so we can borrow from each other, and more importantly, be inspired by each other. Take for instance some of the development Sam did during his tenure with the Keoland Triad, there were things in there that seemed totally wacky to Rich and I, like the so called 'Neheli Sacrilege', which explains why modern Keoland is not ruled by its churches like some of its neighbors in the Flanaess. We didn't adopt the idea verbatim, but it did get us thinking, and debating, along with our other players, and we've implemented similar, but different events and stories in our game to come to a similar result; a Keoland which has lots of churches that are influential in their town or city, but impotent in the arena of national politics.
It's always struck me as somewhat odd that the biggest 'heretics' in the Greyhawk community are often also the biggest debaters and defenders of canon when it rears its ugly head. Guys like Sam, Rich, Eric 'Montand' O'brien, Delglath, etc, will spend countless hours defending or attacking some contended point of canon, only to go right ahead and ignore it in their own games ;)
It goes back to the idea that canon is just a tool by which we can accomplish 3 basic goals:
- Compare our own greyhawk campaigns
- judge the usefulness and appropriateness of new material for the setting as it comes out, and
- show necomers to the setting what Greyhawk is all about. Sure, if they like what they see and stick around, they'll probably get curious and start reading up on the multitude of homebrew material and ideas we all share here and elsewhere, but without a baseline setting to introduce them to, they get 4 different versions of the setting for every 3 people they ask. That's a disservice to them, and the setting as well, since it probably drives a lot of people off.
The article by Nitescreed (who, for those who are curious, was a very active and vocal fan during the days when greyhawk (and TSR as a whole) was housed on the chatrooms and message board 'folders' on AOL.) He was sort of the delglath or samwise or chatdemon of his time, you might say, always ranting off about something or other, and making quite a few enemies along the way, but a true lover of the setting and productive member of the community nonetheless (besides his essay that Gary posted, 'screed was also the author of many articles about various parts of the setting, a lot of which were archived from the AOL folders and will hopefully be integrated into Canonfire as a tribute archive very soon, we're working on it
) that Gary posted was one example of someone's attempt to codify just what greyhawk canon and flavor is, aimed at building a consensus so that folks could finally agree on how to 'sell' greyhawk to newcomers and fans of other settings.The essay has never been universally accepted, as is obvious here, and as I pointed out before, it's very heavy on the FR bashing and system eltism. As someone said in their reply to me, there's nothing wrong with those sentiments, hey, I'm not a big fan of FR either, but when we are trying to sell the setting to a newcomer who wants to learn about it, and the answer given is basically "Well, it's kind of like Forgotten Realms, except it doesn't suck", that's not likely to score points for greyhawk or its fans.
What I really want to see in this thread tho, is Gary come back and defend his posting of that essay, since it's been ripped apart in some detail now by two posters. I won't be so bold as to say Rich and Sam are undebatably correct, tho I do agree with them, so I'm curious to see a detailed rebuttal by those who agree with Nitescreed.
PS - Nitescreed's version of Ket is in the Best of Greyhawk AOL compilation #3, available at Canonfire.
Originally posted by Samwise
And see what Delglath?
And see just how rude and uncivil you are and how your spite and vitriol carry through no matter how well you try and hide it.
Originally posted by Despotrix
It's always struck me as somewhat odd that the biggest 'heretics' in the Greyhawk community are often also the biggest debaters and defenders of canon when it rears its ugly head. Guys like Sam, Rich, Eric 'Montand' O'brien, Delglath, etc, will spend countless hours defending or attacking some contended point of canon, only to go right ahead and ignore it in their own games ;)
This was the primary reason why I was so confused for so long when going to GreyTalk chats... one minute people are talking about canon and the next thing they're proclaiming how their campaign ignores it. I swear I went cross-eyed there for awhile :D
Originally posted by Tizoc
I don't have time for that last thing this weekend, but I would like to ask about the "Neheli sacrilege." I've never heard of it. Is it described on a website? Samwise, will you explain it here?
You should be able to find it on the LG Keoland website.
As for explaining it here, the short version is:
Just as the Kingdom was founded, two competing faiths managed to nearly destroy everything by dragging everyone into a fight over what should have been a minor religious dispute. After everything was settled, mostly be strategic executions, a proposal was made by the leader of House Neheli that Keoland would have no state supported or sanctioned faith, and that no religious organization would ever be permitted to own or hold land as a religious organization.
Viewed externally, by nations with state religions, this is a "sacrilege".
Originally posted by Delglath
And see just how rude and uncivil you are and how your spite and vitriol carry through no matter how well you try and hide it.
I only return to others what they give to me.
If you dislike your rudeness, lack of civility, spite, and vitriol so much, then consider that perhaps others won't welcome it either. If not, then it will be returned in the same condition as it was offered, and left to you for disposal.
Originally posted by Samwise
I disagree with Sam, the villains, while similar in theme, are varied and unique personages.
That's the thing. According to the 4th Criteria, they must all be different in theme as well.
Nitescreed is directly contradicting his own 4th criteria here!
If you will note, several of his criteria conflict like that. 4 conflicts with 2 as well, becuase if you resolve something, obviously the threats are no longer persistent. Likewise 6 conflicts with 2, as if there is a price, then you haven't actually resolved anything.
Rather than be called on to prove it's not there, I defy anyone to show me a solid example that it is there, please cite your sources in detail, thanks
That's easy. Sort of.
It's from the Gord books.
If they are canon for you, then it is established. If they are not canon for you, then it is a load of hooey.
That's what I was going to say, the Gord books show a powerful group quite dedicated to maintianing the balance. Now some don't take them as cannon, I ideas and stuff in there is canon to me, just not the outcome of the series of books.
The clear fact is that Dungeons and Dragons had its golden age in the 80's. It was around before then and it is around today. People that cut their teeth in the Tomb of Horrors or the Vault of the Drow remember that campaign setting like their first kiss, a special kind of magic that will always be better than everything that has followed since. Now Greyhawk is back in publication so everyone can re-live those twenty year old memories. For those Forgotten Realms fans, don't worry, in a few years you'll have your renaissance too.