However, this recent conversation makes me wonder. What would be the result if a Wizard of High Sorcery lived together with a Wild Sorcerer? Would they each have a library, a laboratory, a summoning chamber, looking exactly the same, only the wizard uses that nifty "focused" magic? Excuse me while I yawn.
See, to make the classes interesting, they have to feel and play differently. So let's think about what these two people would need in their house.
For the Wizard, I'd have a large library filled with spellbooks looted from ancient ruins, copied from ancient libraries or bequeathed by a late mentor. In contrast, I wouldn't have a library for a sorcerer but only one or two books on spell theory.
For spell research I'd have a laboratory and a flat concrete pad behind the house for the sorcerer to research his spells. For the wizard, I'd have an arcane sanctum for ritual bathing, incense and writing tools to copy down the spell formulae he hears from his god's lips.
What would your house look like for a sorcerer and wizard, and what rooms, items and objects would they contain?
Originally posted by ferratus
However, this recent conversation makes me wonder. What would be the result if a Wizard of High Sorcery lived together with a Wild Sorcerer? Would they each have a library, a laboratory, a summoning chamber, looking exactly the same, only the wizard uses that nifty "focused" magic? Excuse me while I yawn.
Is somebody suggesting this would be the case?
Cheers,
Cam
The sorcerer would have like, a pool table (or whatever the folk on Krynn have instead of pool tables), maybe a study of his own, if he's a studious type of sorcerer, you know, whatever suits his fancy.
Primal sorcery and High Sorcery are different. A primal sorcerer doesn't need a study or a library or any of that.
Originally posted by ferratus
However, this recent conversation makes me wonder. What would be the result if a Wizard of High Sorcery lived together with a Wild Sorcerer? Would they each have a library, a laboratory, a summoning chamber, looking exactly the same, only the wizard uses that nifty "focused" magic? Excuse me while I yawn.
Maybe this would be the case between an Academy Sorcerer and a Wizard of High Sorcery, but even then, it's doubtful.
It would be The Odd Couple. The wizard would be the one who is all tidy, studying for hours in his quiet room. The sorcerer is more interested in exploring life in new ways, and in experiencing the world. He doesn't need all the "stuffy" stuff the wizard has. He has materials that help him on his path of self-discovery.
What would your house look like for a sorcerer and wizard, and what rooms, items and objects would they contain?
Both rooms would look identically the same, as the wizard turned in the sorcerer as a renegade, and now has the whole house to himself.
Honestly, the PHB sorcerer and wizard are more alike than their DL counterparts.
The thing you have to remember is that a majority of the sorcerers encountered in novels hail from the Academy of Sorcery. While it is a structured to a degree, it's not as much as what you would find in the Towers of High Sorcery.
Alright, now we have a setup that will work for Ferratus's scenario . At some point, this will all come to a head. The Conclave will discover the Sorcerer in time, but that is in the future and currently we're only caring about their life together.
This is very important, because as SAGA wrote up sorcerers, they were pretty much academics in exactly the same mold as a typical vanilla wizard/sorcerer (which were pretty much interchangable terms in previous editions). Now, SAGA did leave the back door open for learning the magic on its own, but it doesn't have that innate magical mojo from elemental, celestial, fiendish, or draconic bloodlines that the PHB sorcerer has going for it. In Dragonlance sorcery is pretty much something that everyone can learn how to do.
You can do that way, so that wizards and sorcerers are simply two rival magical traditions that just use two different pools of power, but that simply makes both groups a lot less interesting. It becomes merely a power struggle between two rival groups of wizards rather than a fundamental rift between two diversely different approaches to magic, and two diversely different types of characters.
So thus this thread to think about it a little. What do you all think a sorcerer or a wizard needs to practice his or her craft? Why types of tools and equipment does he need, and what types of rooms does he put them in?
P.S. I don't need to know why they would have ended up in the house in the first place. If you can't imagine sorcerers and wizards living together, give me two houses, and describe the contents of each house.
What makes a sorcerer more interesting to play than a wizard?
I hate to say it, but in the current post-WoS world, not much. Mostly, you have the role-playing potential.
However, here are some more thoughts on your original question on what is in everyone's room.
In the wizard's room, he has the organization of the Wizard's of High Sorcery and the moon gods. He has some cool magic items, a familiar, and cupcakes. Mmmm....cupcakes. It's a very closed-off room.
The sorcerer's room is more wide-open and free, allowing him to come and go as he pleases. He's got the Academy of Sorcery, the Thorn Knights (which he got from his wizard brother, and the Legion of Steel. Lots of friends to play with. Plus, he has theories on manipulating magic that the wizard just doesn't jive with. These Realms of Sorcery are quite intriguing, he thinks, and it's something he'd like to explore on his own.
Again, I think the novels and SAGA materials focus so much on the Academy Sorcerers that you don't get the best feel for other sorcerers beyond the Academy. Also, the WoHS come across to me as more of a University model, while the Academy comes across as something similar to Luke Skywalker's Jedi Academy in Star Wars.
Oh, and my son Travis wanted to show everyone the smilies he likes. Here's the latest from Little T.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
IAgain, I think the novels and SAGA materials focus so much on the Academy Sorcerers that you don't get the best feel for other sorcerers beyond the Academy. Also, the WoHS come across to me as more of a University model, while the Academy comes across as something similar to Luke Skywalker's Jedi Academy in Star Wars.
It makes sense that the prevailing attitude to sorcery in the 5th age was very similar to the High Sorcery model, since Palin had only that to work with. His Academy was designed to be a lot more open and cooperative, however, with less of a structure and more a place to share ideas and develop one's affinities.
Sorcerers are a lot of fun to play in Dragonlance. They're much easier to incorporate into a backstory, since there's no automatic requirement for a test, inclusion in the Orders, or weapon restriction (whether it's a tradition or a law). The sorcerer, like the mystic, offers a flexible alternative to the standard DL spellcaster.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
The sorcerer, like the mystic, offers a flexible alternative to the standard DL spellcaster.
Exactly. No matter what, the wizard has to take the Test or be branded a renegade.
The sorcerer has so many more options. In some ways, the sorcerer seems more generic, but in others, it gives you the flexibility that a wizard doesn't have. You have so many more choices for prestige classes, plus you can take them at a lower level than a wizard can (due to the WoHS prestige class).
In a way, you're getting the best of both worlds.
Originally posted by ferratus
Yeah, I'm talking about what a wizard and sorcerer need to practice their craft. When all is said and done, is the methodology and tools for practicing magic exactly the same for both sorcerers and wizards in Dragonlance?
No.
Cheers,
Cam
Let me in on what everyone is talking about.
Sorcerers are on a path of self-discovery.
Bards just like to crank up the amps and jam.
Originally posted by ferratus
If no, what do they need to practice their craft? Specifically, what does a sorcerer or a wizard need to research and cast spells? Does a sorcerer need a library? Can a wizard come up with his own spell formulaes (and thus be shaping magic)?
Let me in on what everyone is talking about.
I would say tht the wizard requires a laboratory to research new spells, but not necessarily learn spells that already exist. Wizards can come up with new formulaes, otherwise no new spells could be created. All a sorceror really needs is a time, a place, and the drive to learn or create new magicks. Above all else, the thing both the wizard and the sorceror need is patience.
God, I hope the ToHS supplement helps out on this subject, otherwise I think ferratus may go insane, and then Cam and DH would probably follow.
Originally posted by ferratus
If no, what do they need to practice their craft? Specifically, what does a sorcerer or a wizard need to research and cast spells? Does a sorcerer need a library? Can a wizard come up with his own spell formulaes (and thus be shaping magic)?
Let me in on what everyone is talking about.
For the sorcerer, any tool (whether it's a spell component, library, other sorcerers, empyrical evidence, some mnemonic, etc) is jus a focus for his pulling in the magic of creation from its elemental origins and casting spells. A lot of earlier sorcerers continued to use the same components, gestures and whatever that they did when they were wizards. This translates to sorcerers using verbal, somatic and material components in D&D3E. Those sorcerers who surpass this requirement for a focus can eventually do so (with Still Spell, Silent Spell, Eschew Materials, etc) although it makes spellcasting take a little longer.
Wizards are more or less bound to the trappings and tools of their craft. The power of their magic is bound up in these things as well as the mage, as the gods have decreed it. Metamagic feats which allow a wizard to leave these tools out represent time spent in preparation to carefully accomodate their absence, rather than the sorcerer's "I'll take a little longer to cast this spell" on-the-fly trick.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Daedavias
IGod, I hope the ToHS supplement helps out on this subject, otherwise I think ferratus may go insane, and then Cam and DH would probably follow.
Trampas and I went mad long ago, Daedavias.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Trampas and I went mad long ago, Daedavias.
Cheers,
Cam
Cupcakes, anyone?
What I want to know is what a sorcerer and wizard need to research spells and cast them.
For example, I beleive that a wizard needs a laboratory or workshop to craft potions and magical items. I don't think he needs it for spell research.
I also beleive he doesn't experiment to cast spells which do not exist in a pre-existing spellbook because that would be, in essence, shaping new magic. It would be much clearer if he learned new spells the way initiates to a roman mystery cult learned their secrets. I like the way "Arcane Sanctum" just rolls off the tongue.
A sorcerer, in contrast, fiddles and twiddles until he comes along with the appropriate way to create a magical effect. Sure, he uses metamagic feats to alter it at a moment's notice, but he basically has to figure out the spell formulae by trial and error.
Originally posted by ferratus
For example, I beleive that a wizard needs a laboratory or workshop to craft potions and magical items. I don't think he needs it for spell research.
Ah, I see. No, actually, they do an incredible amount of research. The true gift of the moon gods wasn't individual spells, but the building blocks of how spells are written, created, and cast. In many ways, it's like being handed Latin, full-featured and complete, and the complexity of the spell is a good sign of how much work a wizard went to to assemble it. It's then written down in Magius, scribed into scrolls, and so forth.
Sorcerers don't have any language, they're doing it all by trial and error as you say. Many former wizards tend to cling to aspects of wizardry but they're not really required. I think you're really talking about the difference here between somebody who's been given a very very detailed and well-programmed piece of design software like Photoshop (wizards) and somebody who's slapping together his own applications from machine code (sorcerers) or, hell, crayons and paper.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Ah, I see. No, actually, they do an incredible amount of research. The true gift of the moon gods wasn't individual spells, but the building blocks of how spells are written, created, and cast. In many ways, it's like being handed Latin, full-featured and complete, and the complexity of the spell is a good sign of how much work a wizard went to to assemble it. It's then written down in Magius, scribed into scrolls, and so forth.
If that's true they don't need a laboratory, they need a a desk and a library. The laboratory is still needed for crafting magical items, like portals to the abyss. ;)
I'm gonna miss the arcane sanctum though, a little less ordinary than the traditional D&D wizard. Hmm... unless the WoHS book says specifically that laboratories are for reasearching spells, and the Towers of High Sorcery don't have shrines to the lunar dieties (which I doubt) then I should be able to work in the mystery rite spell revelation flavour, in addition to allowing wizards to research spells in the traditional way.
edit: Hey! Maybe that's where they get their spells from automatically when they acheive another level and don't have access to spellbooks!
Sorcerers don't have any language, they're doing it all by trial and error as you say. Many former wizards tend to cling to aspects of wizardry but they're not really required. I think you're really talking about the difference here between somebody who's been given a very very detailed and well-programmed piece of design software like Photoshop (wizards) and somebody who's slapping together his own applications from machine code (sorcerers) or, hell, crayons and paper.
That' s an analogy I can get behind. Of course, that means a sorcerer has to know the basics of code first doesn't it? Can a sorcerer merely manifest more spell power as he grows older (as per the PHB sorcerer) or does he need some sort of training or study first? Is an academy or mentor necessary, or can you simply "become"?
Originally posted by ferratus
That' s an analogy I can get behind. Of course, that means a sorcerer has to know the basics of code first doesn't it? Can a sorcerer merely manifest more spell power as he grows older (as per the PHB sorcerer) or does he need some sort of training or study first? Is an academy or mentor necessary, or can you simply "become"?
The evidence is there for both. Mentorship certainly helped the Thorn Knights and Legion Sorcerers, but independent sorcerers who had no prior experience yet awoke to their power through some accidental discovery have also been accounted. Palin's attempts to find and locate as many as he could and bring them into the Academy, to benefit from the classroom and study model, means that a good percentage left behind that independence for the support of other sorcerers.
In my current campaign, I use Cole, the pyromancer from the "Sylvan Key" adventure in the DLCS, as an NPC and support character. I determined that as a child his mother remarried and his stepfather was an abusive drunk. The man would come home, beat Cole's mother, beat Cole, stay for a week, and move on. On one occasion, Cole defended his mother and was pushed into the fireplace, badly burning him and leaving him with scars. The trauma of this event caused him to uncover the ability to shape fire into spells, and the next time Cole's stepfather came home he got a burning hands in the face.
That's a little bit Marvel Comics for some people, I imagine, but it made him an appealing NPC which the party diviner's taken under his wing. I hope to develop him further as the game continues.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by ferratus
Hmm... the Academy of Sorcery as the Xavier institute. I never thought of it in that way before. I like it a lot.
Xela begins with an X. I bet you never saw that connection, either.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by ferratus
I imagine that sorcerers in the Academy are less likely to go evil and insane as well. The Thorn Knights would have much the same corrupting influence as the Brotherhood of Mutants, while small cabals like the the Hellfire Club exist where sorcerers join together.
Yes, that's very much how I imagine it works. I wouldn't be surprised if the influences were there. And you know that the Mansion at Westchester's been burned down and rebuilt more than once.
It's at the very least a helpful way of approaching it, and sorcerers in general. I know it's guided my play of them for some time.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by ferratus
Hmm... the Academy of Sorcery as the Xavier institute. I never thought of it in that way before. I like it a lot.
I do too, actually.
The Academy of Sorcery reminds me of the Jedi Academy in regards to discovering inner power (sorcery or the Force), and sharing discoveries. That's why I think the Jedi Academy model is a good one as well.
Still, I could see a lot of similarities to the Xavier institute. It's a good model too, especially for discovering powers and abilities.