Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 flip Nov 30, 2003 11:17:17	Getting ready to post an errata update of DS3 soon. Last chance to get something in for this go-round. If there aren't too many changes after this, the next errata-update probably won't happen until the imaged version is released. And, of course, speaking of the imaged version: If you've got some art that you'd like to see in DS3, or in any of the athas.org products, send it to: [email]flip@athas.org[/email] (because I'm looking at the stuff for ds3) and [email]neeva@athas.org[/email] (because she's our art collector / coordinator)\ If you want it in DS3, send it soon. Otherwise, just send off to Neeva. One of the other things I'm working on is a site update. Included in the site update is going to be some proper gallery code so that the stuff we've got is actually displayed ...
#2 zombiegleemax Dec 01, 2003 8:11:32	Don't forget the review of the general cleric spell list to get rid of Earthquake-casting air clerics! :D See my extensive comments and lookthrough on the general Athasian cleric spell list here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1759932#post1759932
#3 flip Dec 01, 2003 11:46:13	Originally posted by Nagypapi Don't forget the review of the general cleric spell list to get rid of Earthquake-casting air clerics! :D What you're begging for in all this is basically a return to spheres. 3e dropped the concpet of spheres for clerics for very good reasons. If we reintroduce the idea, we're essentially returning to the point where certain types of clerics are much more powerful than others, simply because of the available spell selections. I'm not even entirely sure that good clerics can't cast [evil] spells. But that's generally irrelevant, because the spells with those descriptors have a polar oppsoite. With the spells you're upset about, that's not the case. So, to actually remove the spells like Earthquake, they'd have to be taken off all of the lists (to retain any quanitifable sense of balance) ... and therefore only be available through domains. And it's hardly the effect you want to take all elemental flavor off of the generic spell list and jam it into the domains. So, in the same way it might seem generally inappropriate for a cleric of a god of destruction to be casting healing spells (or ressurection) ... it's still possible. But then, that's why the whole "ex-cleric" paragraph exists ... when you end up casting contrary spells to excess (or even exclusion) of the goals of your patron, then you get punished. But, in general, the elementals are concerned with your results, not your methods.
#4 zombiegleemax Dec 01, 2003 12:43:09	Originally posted by flip What you're begging for in all this is basically a return to spheres. Technicaly yes. 3e dropped the concpet of spheres for clerics for very good reasons. If we reintroduce the idea, we're essentially returning to the point where certain types of clerics are much more powerful than others, simply because of the available spell selections. But don't forget, that the sphere concept is living in 3e, they are just called domains here. And as the spell selection depends solely on you, you can make it balanced. I know that you don't have 100 playtesters, but if the starting point is a streamlined non-elemental generic spell list, and then come the domains it is possible. The domains should be balanced then, as the basic (the generic spell list) is the same. I'm not even entirely sure that good clerics can't cast [evil] spells. But that's generally irrelevant, because the spells with those descriptors have a polar oppsoite. Sadly, that's the main thing about clerics. They depend on their gods for spells. The god grants spells only he or she deems fit and has ability to grant. A good god generaly doesn't grant an evil spell. (Of course there are always rare exceptions, but generally no.) He/she is not able or doesn't want to grant it. With the spells you're upset about, that's not the case. My opinion is that e.g. an air element patron is NOT ABLE to grant Earthquake, Wall of Stone, Create Water, Burning Hands or similar spell for his/her follower (cleric). Especially if we take into consideration that they are not real gods. So, to actually remove the spells like Earthquake, they'd have to be taken off all of the lists (to retain any quanitifable sense of balance) ... and therefore only be available through domains. And it's hardly the effect you want to take all elemental flavor off of the generic spell list and jam it into the domains. Yes, they should be out from all the lists. Actually what lists? We speak about only one list here: the generic cleric spell list. And yes, I want to jam the elemental feeling into the domains. I ask the following: if you did this with Wall of Stone and Create Water, than why the rest remained? So, in the same way it might seem generally inappropriate for a cleric of a god of destruction to be casting healing spells (or ressurection) ... it's still possible. Unfortunately yes. But I think the reason for it is more the role of the cleric in a party than logic. But then, that's why the whole "ex-cleric" paragraph exists ... when you end up casting contrary spells to excess (or even exclusion) of the goals of your patron, then you get punished. I don't see a reason why the patron would let to use the contrary spell for the cleric. And I think the elemental patrons are simply not able to grant these contrary spells. But, in general, the elementals are concerned with your results, not your methods. Here we agree... But certain methods are out of their sphere of power. The main point is that there is no more than a dozen elemental spells on the generic cleric spell list which should been taking care of. Not to mention that somebody (I think Trotzflocke) complained about having trap-like spells in the domain spell lists, which are useable very restrictively. I agree. These removed spells would fit in the places of these trap-like spells. Next tought: you already did a great job with creating elemental spells on the generic spell list (e.g. elemental armor), which is OK as it has different effects for the different elements. It can be continued. As I wrote Magical Stone could be re-named as e.g. elemental bolt, having the same mechanics, and dealing damage appropriate to the patron element (acid for Earth, etc.). It's much better IMHO than having a Heat Lash available for all clerics to have a first level ranged damage dealing spell...
#5 jon_oracle_of_athas Dec 02, 2003 8:12:03	Domain spells should *generally* be useful on a daily casting basis. You will note that several element specific spells are not.
#6 flip Dec 02, 2003 13:00:00	Not to mention that you don't get to memorize domain spells in your normal spell slots.
#7 zombiegleemax Dec 02, 2003 21:38:13	Nagypapi, this is the spell list that I made for my own DS elemental cleric (that doesn't get domains). Perhaps you could use it as a starting point for your own. ------------------------- General Cleric Spells 0-Level Spells Cure Minor Wounds Detect Magic Detect Poison Guidance Inflict Minor Wounds Light Mending Purify Food & Drink Read Magic Resistance Virtue 1st-Level Spells Bane Bless Burial Blessing [DotF] Comprehend Languages Cure Light Wounds Deathwatch Detect Good/Evil/Law/Chaos Detect Undead Divine Favor Doom Endure Elements* Inflict Light Wounds Invisibility to Undead Magic Weapon Protection from Good/Evil/Law/Chaos Remove Fear Sanctuary Shield of Faith Summon Monster I** 2nd-Level Spells Aid Augury Avoid Planar Effects*** [MotP] Bull's Strength Calm Emotions Cat’s Grace Consecrate/Desecrate Cure Moderate Wounds Death Knell Delay Poison Endurance Enthrall Find Traps Gentle Repose Hold Person Inflict Moderate Wounds Lesser Restoration Make Whole Remove Paralysis Resist Elements* Shield Other Silence Spiritual Weapon Summon Monster II** Undetectable Alignment Zone of Truth 3rd-Level Spells Animate Dead Attune Form*** [MotP] Bestow Curse Blindness/Deafness Contagion Create Food (and Water) Cure Serious Wounds Dispel Magic Glyph of Warding Inflict Serious Wounds Interplanar Message [MotP] Invisibility Purge Locate Object Magic Circle against Good/Evil/Law/Chaos Magic Vestment Mass Resist Elements* [TaB] Negative Energy Protection Obscure Object Positive Energy Protection [MotP] Prayer Protection from Elements* Remove Blindness/Deafness Remove Curse Remove Disease Safety [MotP] Speak with Dead Summon Monster III** Zone of Respite [MotP] Zone of Revelation [MotP] 4th-Level Spells Cure Critical Wounds Death Ward Dimensional Anchor Discern Lies Dismissal Divination Divine Power Freedom of Movement Greater Magic Weapon Imbue with Spell Ability Inflict Critical Wounds Lesser Planar Ally** Make Manifest [MotP] Neutralize Poison Poison Restoration Spell Immunity Status Summon Monster IV** Tongues 5th-Level Spells Atonement Break Enchantment Commune Dispel Good/Evil/Law/Chaos Hallow/Unhallow Healing Circle Mark of Justice Plane Shift† Raise Dead Righteous Might Scrying Spell Resistance Summon Monster V** True Seeing 6th-Level Spells Banishment Energy Immunity* [TaB] Etherealness Find the Path Forbiddance Geas/Quest Greater Dispelling Greater Glyph of Warding Heal Heroes' Feast Mass Manifest [MotP] Planar Ally** Revive Elemental [New] Summon Monster VI** Word of Recall 7th-Level Spells Destruction Elemental Body** [MotP] Greater Restoration Greater Scrying Holy Word/Blasphemy/Dictum/Word of Chaos Refuge Regenerate Repulsion Resurrection Summon Monster VII** 8th-Level Spells Anti-Magic Field Dimension Lock [TaB] Discern Location Greater Planar Ally** Holy Aura/Unholy Aura/Shield of Law/Cloak of Chaos Mass Heal Summon Monster VIII** Symbol 9th-Level Spells Elemental Swarm** Energy Drain Gate‡ Miracle Summon Monster IX** True Resurrection * This spell can only protect against or utilize certain elements, depending on the cleric's chosen element, as follows: Earth – acid, fire Air - electricity, cold Fire - fire Water – cold, acid ** As a spell of the cleric's element only. *** This spell can only be used to protect against the plane of the cleric’s chosen element. † To the cleric’s chosen elemental plane only. ‡ As a spell of the cleric’s element only, when the spell is used to call creatures. [DotF] This spell is found in Defenders of the Faith [TaB] This spell is found in Tome and Blood [MotW] This spell is found in Masters of the Wild [MotP] This spell is found in the Manual of the Planes [SS] This spell is found in Savage Species [New] This is new spell, described in the Spells section. The cleric also knows additional spells based on the element he worships: Air Cleric Spells 1st-Level Spells Obscuring Mist 2nd-Level Spells Gaze Screen [TaB] Filter [TaB] 3rd-Level Spells Blessed Aim [DotF] Call Lightning Gaseous Form Wind Wall 4th-Level Spells Air Walk Weather Eye [DotF] 5th-Level Spells Big Sky [MotW] Miasma [MotW] Control Winds 6th-Level Spells Wind Walk 7th-Level Spells Control Weather 8th-Level Spells Whirlwind 9th-Level Spells Storm of Vengeance Earth Cleric Spells 1st-Level Spells Magic Stone Sand Blast [MotW] 2nd-Level Spells Shatter Soften Earth and Stone 3rd-Level Spells Meld into Stone Stone Shape 4th-Level Spells Rusting Grasp Spike Stones 5th-Level Spells Wall of Stone Xorn Movement [MotP] 6th-Level Spells Blade Barrier Stone Tell 7th-Level Spells Glassteel [New] Statue 8th-Level Spells Earthquake Iron Body Repel Metal or Stone 9th-Level Spells Implosion Fire Cleric Spells 0-Level Spells Fire Eyes [MotW] Flare 1st-Level Spells Faerie Fire 2nd-Level Spells Body of the Sun [MotW] Divine Flame [DotF] Fire Trap Flame Blade Heat Metal Produce Flame 3rd-Level Spells Continual Flame Daylight Flame of Faith [DotF] Flaming Sphere Searing Light 4th-Level Spells Fire Shield 5th-Level Spells Flame Strike Wall of Fire 6th-Level Spells Fire Seeds 7th-Level Spells Sunbeam 8th-Level Spells Fire Storm 9th-Level Spells Incendiary Cloud Water Cleric Spells 1st-Level Spells Create Water Obscuring Mist 2nd-Level Spells Chill Metal Divine Zephyr [DotF] Fog Cloud Inky Cloud [SS] 3rd-Level Spells Water Breathing Water Walk 4th-Level Spells Control Water Quench Sleet Storm 5th-Level Spells Cloak of the Sea [MotW] Water Ball [MotW] 6th-Level Spells Ice Storm 7th-Level Spells Cone of Cold 8th-Level Spells Acid Fog 9th-Level Spells Horrid Wilting
#8 avatardso Dec 02, 2003 23:19:40	Flip... I am willing to help out on graphcis for Athas.org. I am atucally the only graphical artist for DSO. I can show you some of the work I have done. I also wanted to talk to you about DSO so please feel free to contact me. Avatar
#9 zombiegleemax Dec 03, 2003 13:06:35	Mr Spatula: thanks, I have made something very similar for my clerics. Altough I would also use the Aspect of Deity spells from Defenders of the Faith to have the cleric abilities from the half-elemental template, similar way as the original version of the spell gives abilities from the half-celestila/half-fiend template. By any chance, aren't we from the same country? Your nick seems very specific...
#10 zombiegleemax Dec 03, 2003 13:09:47	Originally posted by flip Not to mention that you don't get to memorize domain spells in your normal spell slots. A minor issue. As a house rule I allow them that in exchange for the streamlined spell list. But to keep it under controll I don't let domain spells to be converted into heal/cause spells, even if it is memorized on a normal slot and not on the domain slot. I know that is not possible with the final official rules, but I think it can take place in the official rules with a feat which makes possible to spontaneously cast domain spells, or it can be the ability of a clerical prestige class. Here I think especially about an Athasian version of the Elemental Savant from Tome and Blood. And this can be the first step toward elemental advanced beings.
#11 zombiegleemax Dec 05, 2003 17:56:24	Originally posted by Nagypapi Mr Spatula: thanks, I have made something very similar for my clerics. Altough I would also use the Aspect of Deity spells from Defenders of the Faith to have the cleric abilities from the half-elemental template, similar way as the original version of the spell gives abilities from the half-celestila/half-fiend template. The 7th level Elemental Body spell from the Manual of the Planes does something similar. By any chance, aren't we from the same country? Your nick seems very specific... I'm American. I'm only MrSpatula here because someone already nabbed Spatula, my usual nick.
#12 jihun-nish Dec 06, 2003 1:54:13	Originally posted by flip Getting ready to post an errata update of DS3 soon. Last chance to get something in for this go-round. If there aren't too many changes after this, the next errata-update probably won't happen until the imaged version is released. And, of course, speaking of the imaged version: If you've got some art that you'd like to see in DS3, or in any of the athas.org products, send it to: [email]flip@athas.org[/email] (because I'm looking at the stuff for ds3) and [email]neeva@athas.org[/email] (because she's our art collector / coordinator)\ If you want it in DS3, send it soon. Otherwise, just send off to Neeva. One of the other things I'm working on is a site update. Included in the site update is going to be some proper gallery code so that the stuff we've got is actually displayed ... You might want to send him a post!! He seem to be just that an artist!!Drawstealer Hope that's what you were looking for!
#13 dawnstealer Dec 06, 2003 2:06:59	Neeva et al: any pics you want, just ask. I did the monster, weapon, and coin pics quite a while ago, but I can do just about anything you need. Of course, with Borys pushing up the dasies, I can't draw my favorite DS character, but name it and I'll draw it.
#14 zombiegleemax Jan 01, 2004 19:31:26	I'll see what I can do myself. It would be nice to feel I contributed somehow to the release.