Originally posted by Brom Blackforge
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Originally posted by sooperspook
i agree totally. i've always had problems locating greyhawk material , especially info on the world itself. things like nations and their interactions, world specific races, history etc...
if a Greyhawk Campaign Setting book came out i would definately buy it. and so would most of my gamer friends.
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Originally posted by Ornum
I wouldn't mind seeing some type of sourcebook come out for Greyhawk. I never got the chance to play that setting because it was never truly updated for new gamers, just expanded upon (greatly expanded). I could never find the original setting to explain the history to me, so I never bothered with any of the expansions because I was missing out on too much that came before.
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Exactly! This is what I don't think WotC understands about its current treatment of Greyhawk. The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer gives only the most cursory overview of the setting. It barely scratches the surface of the complete history of the setting. It even states right up front that there are entire areas of the setting (like the Vault of the Drow) that are not addressed in it. Fans who want to catch up are forced to either download .PDF files (which I, for one, don't like, and others have complained about the quality), or bid on the originals on eBay (if you can find them). Despite the LGG, the setting seems largely inaccessible.
How could WotC remedy this problem? First, collect all of the old stuff and reprint it in a nice collection. It would be great if the collection were updated to v. 3.5, but I'd settle for a sidebar explaining the conversion process so we can do it ourselves. Second, publish a Greyhawk Encyclopedia, with detailed entries about every person, place and thing that has ever been published about Greyhawk. This Encyclopedia could even include essays about the development of the setting, explaining how various products (or product eras) changed the setting. It would also be interesting to see essays about the more prominent variations from canon: Greyhawk apocrypha and Greyhawk heresy, you might say. These would be invaluable resources, and I'm sure they would bring new players into the setting.
The reprint collection would be such an easy task, especially without the conversion. The encyclopedia would probably involve more work, but I'm sure that a lot of it has already been done by someone. For instance, there's a Greyhawk fan named Jason Zavoda (well known on the Greyhawk forum and Greyhawk fan sites) who has compiled an exhaustive index of Greyhawk lore. (His index for the LGG was published in either Dragon or Dungeon not too long ago.) Also, I believe I read somewhere that Erik Mona, Gary Holian, and the other authors of the LGG put something together when they wrote the LGG in an effort to avoid contradicting anything that had come before. There are probably other examples, as well. It might take a number of contributors, but it is definitely possible, and it would make such a great resource.
i agree totally. i've always had problems locating greyhawk material , especially info on the world itself. things like nations and their interactions, world specific races, history etc...
If that isn't a description of the LGG, then I don't know what is...
Originally posted by impy and chimpy
Cynicism accomplishes nothing. Your effort would be better spent writing a letter to Wizards. You'd be surprised what it can do...
There is no cynicism in my post. Merely, blatent fact. You might want to think before you type. You'd be surprised what thinking can do...
I would like to see a Greyhawk encyclopedia, though. That would be a handy reference indeed. I don't think I'd want to see GH become like FR, though, with little room for the DM to work within the setting. The fact that GH is so open ended is one of the things that attracts me to the setting. Of course, this is also the major problem, since there is such a dearth of material right now, it almost seems like a total sandbox. Yeah, I know there's great sites like Cannonfire and some published materials, but I want a nice, shiney book that sums it all up, which I can pull off my shelf and read. Sorry, Delglath, but LGG just isn't enough to sate my appetite. ;)
Whoops, I guess I stumbled into a dead horse that's already been beaten around here. Anywhoo, the encyclopedia is a good idea, though the odds for it are thin.
-wn
Whoops, I guess I stumbled into a dead horse that's already been beaten around here. Anywhoo, the encyclopedia is a good idea, though the odds for it are thin.
Another disempowered outlook. You know, you can categorize it any way you like, but moping on a message board accomplishes nothing, and it is cynical to think otherwise.
But there are those who are taking a stand, one that goes beyond cyberspace (and believe or not, there is such a place...) These people are writing honest to goodness letters in hopes of changing the face of Greyhawk. They are rallying the Greyhawk community in hopes of affecting a change. They're getting in the face of Wotc.
As for Canonfire, carving out a website frequented by dozens of hard-core fans accomplishes what exactly? What does it officially change about the setting? Sure, it's a fun club-house to frequent and write short essays for private use, but Wotc hasn't noticed one iota. Nor will they anytime soon.
Cyber-whining only gets you so far. If you want to make a difference, get off your chair and take the fight to them.
Originally posted by impy and chimpy
But there are those who are taking a stand, one that goes beyond cyberspace (and believe or not, there is such a place...) These people are writing honest to goodness letters in hopes of changing the face of Greyhawk. They are rallying the Greyhawk community in hopes of affecting a change. They're getting in the face of Wotc.
What makes a difference, is sales figures. The fact that the LGG IS what a lot of these people seem to want, minus the pretty pictures hard cover, and yet it didn't sell like its FR equivalent, means that what people SHOULD be doing to encourage WotC to put out something bigger or better, is buy the product that caters to most of their need, aka the LGG, and thus show WotC that GH can be profitable.
Originally posted by impy and chimpy
As for Canonfire, carving out a website frequented by dozens of hard-core fans accomplishes what exactly? What does it officially change about the setting? Sure, it's a fun club-house to frequent and write short essays for private use, but Wotc hasn't noticed one iota. Nor will they anytime soon.
You do realize that Canonfire was essentially the grand-child of the AOL discussion group which was the birthplace of Team Greyhawk, which did, in turn, consist of the primary people who 'brought back' Greyhawk from the dead, right?
If not the fans, then who? Gygax? Don't make me laugh...
Originally posted by Delglath
There is no cynicism in my post. Merely, blatent fact. You might want to think before you type. You'd be surprised what thinking can do...
Did you ever consider Impy could have been addressing me and not you? Especially when I apologized for the cynicism in my post!!!!!
Maybe you should stop being so self-centered.
You also might want to think before you type. You'd also be surprised what thinking can do...
But if you wish to promote the setting you shouldn't take pot shots at sites and groups that are reviving it in their own way. Canonfire, these boards, a letter writing campaign, and people like Erik Mona and Gary Holian are all ways to get the message out. I've seen you (Impy & Chimpy ) promote the purchasing of anything GH specific. Why you want every possible avenue explored to revive the campaign setting.
It would be nice if all of us in this community could put aside are differences. Let all of us use are collective energy into a positive arena in our own ways.
Remember we can disagree with each other, thats the great thing about free speech. With that said I believe products such as LGG and the Scorge of Worlds were just the beginning in our revival of GH. We may be taking baby steps but as long as were moving forward that's the important thing.
Originally posted by rostoff
Maybe you should stop being so self-centered.
You'll eventually learn that these boards revolve around me and me only. If I ceased to concentrate on them, you would all cease to exist. You are here for my amusement only. Therefore it's in your best interest not to **** me off.
Originally posted by Delglath
You'll eventually learn that these boards revolve around me and me only. If I ceased to concentrate on them, you would all cease to exist. You are here for my amusement only. Therefore it's in your best interest not to **** me off.
...... I didn't realise this was an IC board ....... ;)
(Ponders changing his name to Tharizun to enjoy posting in bold caps with a evil booming laugh at the end :D)
Oh yes, back on topic, I agree that the LGG is 80% of what people seem to want as its only missing the crunchy bits & colour pics but what about a Marklands type thing for the Baklunish west or the barbarian north? A super-module for one of the many weird and wonderful sites around the Flanaess? Heck, just getting Ivid out properly would be a nice.
The LGG should be the start not the finish.
Anyway, Argon and SteveS hit the nail on the head. These boards are in place so people can share their ideas with each other and with "offical" people like Eric et al. We are "taking a stand" and "making a difference." All without leaving the comfort of our favorite chairs. :D
I'm all for the Ivid material being published. I appreciate downloading it for free, but slap a cover on it, give it some nifty graphics, and I'd be just as happy to buy it. Even if it wasn't converted to 3.5, I still buy it and convert it myself.
Am I moping? I don't think so. I sure hope not. I'd like to think that I'm positively supporting a setting I enjoy and endorsing the publication of a few products that will earn WotC some money and improve the setting for everyone.
-wn
That honor falls to the R&D team, their bosses in the business department, and the ones who ultimately run the show at Wizards. They are the ones who decide what lives and what dies in the world of D&D.
If it were up to Erik and Gary, we'd already be swimming in material, and I, for one, would be singing their praises (well, I already do that...), but that won't happen until we give them the leverage they need to convince R&D to produce more Greyhawk material (or allow it to be produced by other sources).
In short, I have to agree with Impy, it's about taking the battle to Wotc's doorstep, it's about giving our favorite writers the chance to write.
Originally posted by Delglath
I have to agree with a certain specific other poster who would not put it in such polite words: the LGG is mostly already what everyone is asking for... tell them to buy it.
I've got the LGG. I want more. I want something that has everything that the LGG left out. The LGG is not enough. I'm sure that I'm not alone in this sentiment.
Originally posted by Brom Blackforge
I've got the LGG. I want more. I want something that has everything that the LGG left out. The LGG is not enough. I'm sure that I'm not alone in this sentiment.
I think you're failing to see my point.
The sales of the LGG are what WotC look at and quite frankly, they're pretty ****-poor (from what I've heard) compared to FR stuff. There's no reason for WotC to step up and pay attention because as far as they're concerned, GH doesn't sell.
So by saying to people, "Hey, what do you want?" and when they answer, "Ooh, I'd like details of the Flanaess, political regions, NPC's, organizations!" and then going, "Yeah, that'd be great, let's all try and make WotC make a big, flashy, colourful book with all that junk in it too!" you're effectively killing off Greyhawk because a) the LGG is all that but without the pictures, and b) sales of the LGG are what WotC are going to look at to determine whether or not another, more expensive to produce product will sell.
By not supporting and encouraging the sales of the LGG, there is absolutely no point in whining and signing petitions and sending emails because WotC doesn't give a dren about any of that. To them, it's already a proven fact that GH doesn't sell because the LGG did dismally.
Maybe it could be done as an online fan thing. I'd pity the person who would have to assemble all of that information, though.
Wasn't there supposed to be a Dragonlance Encyclopedia a few years ago? I remember Dragonlance fans being sought out to assemble the info. I wonder if it got published.
I thought that the LGG sold okay. It definitely sold out in my neck of the woods. I wish it was still in print because I'd like to buy another copy to replace my worn-out one. I could definitely do with a new map.
Originally posted by Delglath
I think you're failing to see my point.
The sales of the LGG are what WotC look at and quite frankly, they're pretty ****-poor (from what I've heard) compared to FR stuff. There's no reason for WotC to step up and pay attention because as far as they're concerned, GH doesn't sell.
Of course Greyhawk doesn't sell. The company isn't supporting it. There is practically no Greyhawk product out there to sell. I'm all for encouraging people to buy the LGG if they haven't already got it, but I'm not going to go out and buy 2 or 3 more copies just to try to boost sales in order to get WotC to take notice.
So by saying to people, "Hey, what do you want?" and when they answer, "Ooh, I'd like details of the Flanaess, political regions, NPC's, organizations!" and then going, "Yeah, that'd be great, let's all try and make WotC make a big, flashy, colourful book with all that junk in it too!" you're effectively killing off Greyhawk because a) the LGG is all that but without the pictures, and b) sales of the LGG are what WotC are going to look at to determine whether or not another, more expensive to produce product will sell.
By not supporting and encouraging the sales of the LGG, there is absolutely no point in whining and signing petitions and sending emails because WotC doesn't give a dren about any of that. To them, it's already a proven fact that GH doesn't sell because the LGG did dismally.
You know, with all those thousands of people out there playing Living Greyhawk, plus all of us who play Greyhawk at home but don't play LG, you'd think the LGG would have pretty decent sales. Delglath, I know you've been saying it sold poorly, but where did you get that idea?
I'm not knocking the LGG. It's a fine start, but it's just a survey. The problem is, that's the way that WotC wants to leave it. What is preventing WotC from developing Greyhawk any further is their idea that they will pump out tons of FR to satisfy the gamers who want tons of product with all the details of the setting filled in, and they will leave Greyhawk as essentially a blank slate for those gamers who want an open-ended setting that they can flesh out themselves. That was essentially the response I got from Wizards Customer Support not too long ago. The error in this is the notion that GH fans will be satisfied with no product.
I know, however, that new product is too much to ask for. So I thought we could start with repackaged old product (the reprint collection). And from there, I didn't think it was such a big leap to the encyclopedia.
Will any of it ever happen? No, probably not. I just liked the idea.
Originally posted by Brom Blackforge
Of course Greyhawk doesn't sell. The company isn't supporting it. There is practically no Greyhawk product out there to sell.
Again, you seem to fail to realize the crucial point here. You're blaming the company when there is no-one else to blame but ourselves.
Simply put, there is no money in Greyhawk.
Quite frankly, I was shocked and surprised at Erik's decision to put more Greyhawk into Dungeon. I personally think he's taking a huge risk by doing so.
If you want more Greyhawk, buy every single Dungeon issue with the LGJ and write to Paizo showing your support for it and tell all your Greyhawk buddies to do the same.
Maybe, MAYBE, in time, when Paizo connects the dots between Greyhawk content and sales figures, IF that's actually what happens and Greyhawk is PROVEN that it can sell, then, PERHAPS, WotC will notice and we MIGHT see some Greyhawk from them, or at the very least, a license to create GH content given out.
Until then, write all you want, but you're only butting your head up against a brickwall. Money talks, dren walks. Put your money where your heart is and spend it on Greyhawk. That is the ONLY way you will see more Greyhawk material in print.
Originally posted by Delglath
Again, you seem to fail to realize the crucial point here. You're blaming the company when there is no-one else to blame but ourselves.
Simply put, there is no money in Greyhawk.
Quite frankly, I was shocked and surprised at Erik's decision to put more Greyhawk into Dungeon. I personally think he's taking a huge risk by doing so.
If you want more Greyhawk, buy every single Dungeon issue with the LGJ and write to Paizo showing your support for it and tell all your Greyhawk buddies to do the same.
Maybe, MAYBE, in time, when Paizo connects the dots between Greyhawk content and sales figures, IF that's actually what happens and Greyhawk is PROVEN that it can sell, then, PERHAPS, WotC will notice and we MIGHT see some Greyhawk from them, or at the very least, a license to create GH content given out.
Until then, write all you want, but you're only butting your head up against a brickwall. Money talks, dren walks. Put your money where your heart is and spend it on Greyhawk. That is the ONLY way you will see more Greyhawk material in print.
That's a lot of nonsense and either you're too cynical to admit otherwise, or you know it and you're just being a troll. Every product, no matter how similar, has an individual identity, and a market to match. Sales are relative, and that applys to everything. Get your mind off the FR dollar signs long enough to realize that.
Originally posted by willy the water-elf
That's a lot of nonsense and either you're too cynical to admit otherwise, or you know it and you're just being a troll. Every product, no matter how similar, has an individual identity, and a market to match. Sales are relative, and that applys to everything. Get your mind off the FR dollar signs long enough to realize that.
The diference between you and I is that I'm not talking dren. WotC will not publish Greyhawk material because of dollars and sense. That is a fact, get it through your thick skull and we'll all be better off.
That's a lot of nonsense and either you're too cynical to admit otherwise, or you know it and you're just being a troll. Every product, no matter how similar, has an individual identity, and a market to match. Sales are relative, and that applys to everything. Get your mind off the FR dollar signs long enough to realize that.
while every product does have a market... the problem is that from a STRICTLY BUISNESS PERSPECTIVE the market for greyhawk is not large enough to be finacialy vialble for WotC to produce... and WotC will view it that way until proven otherwise. This is not cyicism, it is reality.... deal with it.
(and note that I do not get a great deal of pleasur out of agreeing with Del on this point... but WotC is a uisness ran by a huge faceless corperation... the bottom line is all that matters.)
(Aww darn, he edited it... I KNEW I should've pressed quote instead of reply... whassamatta, you afraid to stand behind your bold words, elfy?)
Originally posted by Robbastard
There's already a Greyhawk encyclopedia--though it's a work in progress & not in the flashy format many seem to be wishing for. However, it's a great resource, and I highly recommend it if you can find it. I'm talking, of course, about Jason Zavoda's Encyclopedia Greyhawkania. The only way I know one can get a copy is to contact Jason directly, & I don't have his email addy.
Isn't this just an index rather than an encyclopedia, though? Or is he now adding text descriptions to his index entries?
Thank you.
Originally posted by willy the water-elf
That's a lot of nonsense and either you're too cynical to admit otherwise, or you know it and you're just being a troll. Every product, no matter how similar, has an individual identity, and a market to match. Sales are relative, and that applys to everything. Get your mind off the FR dollar signs long enough to realize that.
The words Delglath used, may be a "little" drastic, but I think he is absolutly right!
And don't blame Delglath for Wizards/Hasbro sales "philosophy"!
Originally posted by Delglath
Again, you seem to fail to realize the crucial point here. You're blaming the company when there is no-one else to blame but ourselves.
Simply put, there is no money in Greyhawk.
[ . . . ] Money talks, dren walks. Put your money where your heart is and spend it on Greyhawk. That is the ONLY way you will see more Greyhawk material in print.
First of all, Delglath, let me just say that my idea about a grand Greyhawk Encyclopedia is just something from my wish list. I don't really expect to see it, but I was excited about it and I thought other people might be too. So, thanks for raining on my parade.
Second, I still think you're wrong, but I think our disagreement is of the chicken-and-egg variety. What needs to come first, sales or product? If there is no product, there will be no sales. If there are no sales, there will be no product. At some point, market research has to come into play if there is going to be anything new. I think there have been a number of efforts to show that the market is ready for more Greyhawk, but will it make a difference? Who knows. Maybe what we need is a voice in a cornfield ("If you print it, they will come.").
Originally posted by Robbastard
There's already a Greyhawk encyclopedia--though it's a work in progress & not in the flashy format many seem to be wishing for. However, it's a great resource, and I highly recommend it if you can find it. I'm talking, of course, about Jason Zavoda's Encyclopedia Greyhawkania. The only way I know one can get a copy is to contact Jason directly, & I don't have his email addy.
Actually, I was thinking about Jason Zavoda when I first posted, although I wasn't aware he had anything more than his index. (Obviously, even just the index would be an invaluable starting point for the encyclopedia.) I was also thinking of Erik Mona, Gary Holian, and the other LGG authors; it seemed to me that I read somewhere that they put something together to help them keep track of what had been established before so that the LGG didn't contradict anything.
I think the bare bones of an encyclopedia are out there. . . .
Originally posted by Delglath
You do realize that Canonfire was essentially the grand-child of the AOL discussion group which was the birthplace of Team Greyhawk, which did, in turn, consist of the primary people who 'brought back' Greyhawk from the dead, right?
which had a total readership of?
but i agree with Del in that the real point is: the group/so-called fans of Greyhawk that worked on the revival products are mostly gone now at WotC. thus the fans/group-in-the-know at WotC are few and far between. FR is thus the Big Book on Campus.
If not the fans, then who? Gygax? Don't make me laugh...
if you want a good laugh read the work from some of the fans at...
Once established, the product moves forward (but not without the support needed by its parent comapny). Word of mouth will sustain the setting only so long. After that, if the support is pulled, the setting falls into obscurity.
How do people bring it back? By wishful thinking and message board threads? Perhaps, but I would say it takes something more than that. I would say it requires direct consumer action, action aimed at making designers aware of the core-audience's dissatisfaction. Phrases like "If you will no longer publish Greyhawk material, then I will no longer purchase ANY of your products," and so on.
Because that's what they understand...
Originally posted by number twelve looks just like you
If an setting is new, then publishers take a chance and release it, often hoping that the accompanying ad campaign (not to mention word of mouth) will propel the setting into the limelight. This kind of marketing is not unlike a grass-roots campaign.
Once established, the product moves forward (but not without the support needed by its parent comapny). Word of mouth will sustain the setting only so long. After that, if the support is pulled, the setting falls into obscurity.
How do people bring it back? By wishful thinking and message board threads? Perhaps, but I would say it takes something more than that. I would say it requires direct consumer action, action aimed at making designers aware of the core-audience's dissatisfaction. Phrases like "If you will no longer publish Greyhawk material, then I will no longer purchase ANY of your products," and so on.
Because that's what they understand...
I'm not sure if this would actually work. To say "I will no longer purchase ANY of your products" seems a bit childish and very agressive to me. Not the way to address businessmen trying to convince them doing something. I would rather write politely to express the wish to see more Greyhawk books in print.
Funny to me say that, as I am actually planning to purchase no new book from Wizards save from unlikely releases in the Greyhawk and Oriental Adventures lines.
Originally posted by Brom Blackforge
Second, I still think you're wrong, but I think our disagreement is of the chicken-and-egg variety. What needs to come first, sales or product? If there is no product, there will be no sales. If there are no sales, there will be no product. At some point, market research has to come into play if there is going to be anything new. I think there have been a number of efforts to show that the market is ready for more Greyhawk, but will it make a difference? Who knows. Maybe what we need is a voice in a cornfield ("If you print it, they will come.").
You have an amazing ability to completely and utterly ignore a point, regardless of how many times it is thumped into you.
The market research has already been conducted. The LGG didn't sell. Please, please, please will you hammer that into your brain? Mine is starting to hurt from all this wishful thinking.
Originally posted by diaglo
if you want a good laugh read the work from some of the fans at...
Don't be so gutless. If you're going to slur someone, do it properly so that I can report it and get you banned from here. We may all know who you mean, but not saying who it is, is still cowardly.
so that I can report it and get you banned from here
That's funny, all this time I thought you were hard at work trying to get yourself banned.
Originally posted by Coldpenguin625
Um...does he mean that the fanwork on "we-know-where" sucked? Or was he speaking about my article that was supposed to be funny?
He's talking about Canonfire.
Originally posted by willy the water-elf
That's funny, all this time I thought you were hard at work trying to get yourself banned.
Ahh, another of the Gutless Wonders speaks up! Why not go and put back in that post you edited what you said in the first place, hmm? It was ever so wonderfully vicious. I truly wish that I had quoted it when I had the chance.
Originally posted by WizO_Jedi
Let's keep the tone of this thread at a more civil level, please.
Note to self: Propose to Dox to lock the entire GH forum to save time.
::click::