I have some ideas for a few epic storylines line-up but I’m having trouble deciding what elements of Dragonlance will pose a challenge. Dragonlance has many unique elements I can use; say an 8th Rougue/8th Assassin Kapak would pose a unique challenge, except I can’t get over the misconception that Dragonlance is a low-level world. Where would such a high-level Kapak come from? Why isn’t he ruling Tyer? I’ve use very high level NPCs before and they have had very detail backgrounds and purpose in the world, but now I find myself in the point where “henchmen” types have to be as powerful as these old villains to create challenging duels.
Aside from the Dragon Overlords, what can challenge epic level characters in Dragonlance? A Minotaur fleet? A Horde of Demons? Fireshadows? A 10th Commoner/10th Fighter/ 3rd Wild Psionic average innkeeper from FR?
Pehraps throughout your campaign there has been some sinister force watching from the shadows, manipulating the events that have so far come to pass, perhaps it is even an avatar? One thing is for certain though, they do not care for the petty squabbles of individual lands, they apsire to rule all of Krynn.
This idea explains why they have never heard of this person, and also why they aren't concerned with ruling individual lands. To pull this off they would have to be quite powerful and most likely would employ powerful underlings which share their goals. In the Taladas box set it explains that there were multiple floating citadels, perhaps this person has managed to conceal his one magically, and that is his base of operations? this could be the reason the party know nothing of them.
)… Damn Mina’s Cool, HAIL TO MINA, LORD OF THE NIGHT!... Opps, sorry about that… it happens when I’m not paying attention). And on a less obvious note Laurana probably needs to have Epic Level ranks in style and Tassleholf… well anyone who sneak attacks the Father of All and Nothing when a legion of Dragons fails…
However generally I do think that Dragonlance is a low level world, without super-powerful hero's trampling the place. Yes there are of course Dragonlance’s, Dragon Orbs and the Time Travelling device but these are somewhat more subtle than, more tricky (and just plain more stylish) than the common Keen-Vorpal-flaming-burst-chilly burst-sonic +8 Greatsword of Smiting-Anyone-who-looks-at-me-funny found in Epic adventures (and available from most village black-smiths in Fauren).
Like most worlds built around some kind of believable level of fantasy it can be very hard to justify alot of Epic Level Monsters, Villains and items existing at all (esp when you’re player characters exceed the abilities of the greatest hero’s in the world). Of course Dragonlance does have a disproportionately huge number of Dragons, which make rather good opponents for Epic Level people (I sometimes think that the Dragons regularly have to go into hibernation because they drive most animals almost to extinction when they go hunting).
To avoid the continuity problems of suddenly having epic-level opponents on Anaslon I would go the direction Tyralion was suggesting and use the idea of the enemies and threat coming from elsewhere. Exactly if this is from another continent (like Tyralion suggested Taladis, or maybe even the continent in formation), or perhaps another plane entirely is up to you. I mean any foo-I mean heroic adventurer want to reoppon the Link to the World where Malys was considered somewhat small and weedy?
You could even go for something as insane as a Illithid/Cthulhu/Far-Realms “invasion” of Krynn, although this would probably take away a lot of the “Dragonlancy” feel of the campaign (although I would think that any Epic Level campaign would lose this to some extent anyway)
Here is what I got for the closing of the campaign. This is my own continuity of Krynn in the year 412 AC.
Since the earliest games, years ago, the characters encounter a Dark Elf Silvanesti named Valkyrie. She was one of the original Thorn Knights and mistress of Lord Ariakan. They had a half-elf child named Bridget; she was given to a humble family in a hamlet called River’s Pass in the Kharolis Mountains.
Valkyrie grew disillusion with Takhisis fickleness and treacherous nature. She abandons the knighthood and in time is seduced by the outcast handmaiden of Takhisis, Jiathuli, demigoddess of drows. Valkyrie swore fealty to Jiathuli and promise to release her and her servants from their prison.
Valkyrie recovers the artifact the Scepter of Sorcerer-Kings (modified for Krynn) from the tomb of the Archmage Anariin of Quindaras and begins her crusade to release her goddess and destroy the Dark Queen.
Unknown to even Valkyrie, Jiathuli successfully opened a portal in the underground kingdoms of Chorane, unleashing an army of drow who subsequently killed and enslave the inhabitants of the underground five kingdoms. Jiathuli has blinded the Renegade Dark Elf with promises of a united elven nation free of Takhisis shadow. Partly true, Jiathuli plans to usurper Takhisis and her drow will “unite” the elven kingdoms under their rule.
Bridget, now grown up is a sorceress NPC traveling with the group. One of them is sworn to protect her. Her blood is divinely touched; she is the daughter of Lord Ariakan who is the son of Zeboim, Takhisis daughter. Bridget’s blood has the power to break Takhisis’s Seal on Jiathuli. Valkyrie now seeks her for her blood.
The players have been in the middle of this on and off, never knowing the full story. I plan an epic climax in the planes where the players must decided between aiding the Dark Queen to maintain the Balance, or allowed the release of Jiathuli. If this happens her drows will swarm over the elven nations and then all of Ansalon.
Now I need other epic plots in between, but nothing to grand to top the finale. How does this sound?
1. Levels aren't everything
Why haven't we heard more about the 36th level Solamnic Knight Lord Basher? Well the answer is of course that an "invincible soldier" can only do so much and probably doesn't want to be in the political situation that the much less 14th level soldier that is current Grandmaster does
OR...a new thought, he wasn't as qualified or popular. A 1st level Expert might win more support in the Paladin clergy than a 20th level even if he is not nearly so intimate with the gods.
2. They were always there
I take note that some characters should have always been Epic Level but their stats did not reflect such simply because of conveiniace.
Raistlin Majere could be anything from 20th level to 200th depending on the whims of the DM and the possibility of exploring other realms. Same for Huma, The Kingpriest, Goldmoon, Palin, Magius, and other figures whose exploits are "legendary"
By "legendary" I differentiate from heroic individuals. A legendary is a person who transcends mortality that their actions defy what SHOULD be possible for a human (like beating a god)
3. Epic Threats are dealable by lesser mortals and should fit the flavor
Chaos was an Epic threat, Mayls and SKie were too, not to mention Takhasis of course...all were just defeated by non-epics through fortuitous circumstance
Especially post the War of Souls the "Great Dragons" from the Dragon Planet are Epic threats obviously but they were always there...so was wyrm father. So is all sorts of nasty abyss creatures as well as diabolical wizards of unimaginable power like Fistandantanius. Leftover minions of Chaos are also excellent sources for "epic villains"
as are creations of the Greygem.
they should PROBABLY be slightly more mythic in scope. More "The consort of Takhasis locked away for 1000 years underneath the ground" and less "A paragon red dragon"
4. Super Magic
As far as I'm concerned it's just locked away in a very well protected section of the Towers of High Sorcery. Par Salan and so forth may simply not be able to cast it but like the President of the United States their position as head of the order is more popularity and willingness to deal with mundane issues of training and so forth than their ability to master obscure magical sciences
(Einstein vs. say the President of a Harvard University)
Any questions?
Aside from the Dragon Overlords, which most are gone anyway, and I would think in hot waters with the return gods, there are not that many epic challenges to face 20th level and above characters.
This is not a problem though; it just requires a little more work and creativity. No one blinks and eye or is shocked to learn “a horde of Abyssal demons has been unleash beneath Waterdeep”. No problem, the Mage Lords of the city and Drizzt are on the job. The same scenario in Palanthas would require a hell of a lot of story background and brave characters to meet the challenge.
Your current campaign has been running for 5+ years real time? How much time has passed in-game? 5 years as well? More? Less?
Assuming you started at relatively low levels (let's say around level 2 or 3), and in 5 years in-game time the PCs have advanced to level 21 and above ... what about all the other adventuring people out there?
If the PCs encountered/heard of some memorable evil NPCs early in their career and didn't kill them right away ... then I figure these NPCs would go "adventuring" as well, thus advancing in levels comparable to the PCs.
You could use this same concept for existing canon NPCs.
e.g. Your PCs start adventuring in the year 422 AC at level 2, when the 3 dark elves of Relgoth (p. 127 of Age of Mortals ) are levels 12, 11, and 10. These NPCs are obviously way too powerful for the PCs to directly encounter and come away alive. The PCs adventure for 5 years in-game time and advance to level 21. The three NPC dark elves also advance during this time (though not as quickly), advancing to levels 22, 21, and 20.
So there ya go, epic evil NPCs to do battle with.
Funny you should mention Relgoth, we played there three days ago and the PCs made enemies of the aforementioned dark elves. As you can see I’ve messed with the timeline and events. One day I plan to run a canon Age of Mortals campaign, but this one started in 97’ and I wasn’t going to throw away everything we’ve accomplish to accommodate a new dragonlance. I just do my best to add the Fifth Age elements I like into my existing campaign.
Now this is not to say that she is not a cool character (of course IMO she is not) but I would definently say she is not an epic character.
As far as epic characters go I would definetly say that DL could support Epic characters.
I have just finished going back over the Classics modules and I have run across many epic character as defined by levels. Namely Ariakus (Clr23\Ftr10), Fistandantilus (Magic-User23), Jariket (Magic-User20). There are many characters who are quite close to being epic Lorac for one who is Ftr15\Magic-User3 (by these stats he would not have even been a WoHS, so he would have to be adjusted and that would make him epic). Don't forget Ladonna, Par-Salina, and Justarius.
Oh yeah and of course raistlin. I think I saw him as a 25th or 26th level Magic-user somewhere.
And if she were only low level, she'd be too easy to kill. High levels really only translate to how heroic someone is. Epic games are silly because the heroes are so powerful in their abilities and skills, that nothing short of continual apocalypse gives them pause for thought. And why are they no longer attacked by wolves or cave bears when they're 20th level? The animals don't know the difference, and they're going to be a hell of a lot more common than 20th level necromancers and colossal+ dragons.
So, Mina is epic because of Takhisis cluing her into being powerful, and because she's very heroic. It's just that now she's a bit buggered because she isn't getting any more clerical spells, what with her God being dead and all. I suppose she'd have a lot in common with Palin now, since he's so high a level, and refusing to cast spells.
One suggestion I've heard is that of a 'rolling' campaign. Each player has a character starting off at about 12th level. They will then play with the rest of the party until about 16th or 17th level, and at some point, they will die. The player then can have a nice new shiny 12th level character. Because each character is going to be at different levels, and then die at different points, all the characters don't remain at the same level, but the party does. This way, the story arc can remain the same, but the characters don't have to, so there's no necessary progression to epic levels.
Pddisc - in the sense that you are using for Mina, I would say that she was legendary or famous not epic. I would clarify characters as epic based on the actions they take of their own free will without being ordered. Mina was not an epic character, a legendary puppet maybe, but certainly not epic.
Now as to epic adventures in Dragonlance - IMO if you play dragons properly, even epic characters would have a hard time taking out Great Wyrms, Wyrms, or even Ancient dragons. As this is Dragonlance there should be plenty of these type of dragons running around. Even without dragons you swarm a 20th level character with enough 15th or 10th level enemies and he is going down. Shoot you swarm any character with 3rd or 4th level enemies while the 6th or 7th level spellcaster is hiding in the backfield casting at the character and he is going down. My point is this, if properly thought out you can give epic characters a run for their money without causing a "cataclysm."
The way I look at D&D, is that high level characters, and even medium level characters, are heroes. Their equivalent level villains are also equally heroic, but set their interests in the 'wrong' way. Heroism is simply a measure of how often someone can do something that almost defeats possibility. Look at all the James Bond type movies - what are the chances of him avoiding all those bullets all the time? Well, if he has a ring of protection +5...
When Mina gathers all those armies together to invade wherever, she is using some high level abilities, because it's not normal that someone can look into your eyes and entrap you in metaphorical amber, and hence control what you do. That's epic diplomacy or bluff.
I don't see that it matters in this sense whether someone was told to do something, or whether they did it of their own free will. Look at how many heroes will still go off on quests on behalf of others, regardless of level. And even so, I would still use the term 'infamous' for Mina.
I will grant you this though, in the sense that Mina did "epic" actions o-kay then she is an epic character in the sense of the word. I do not however concede that she is an epic (20th+ level) character. She has no epic power whatsoever now that Takhisis is gone. She may have some mystic and fighter abilities (long shot about the mystic). I don't think she believed in herself enough to actually have any mystic ability. All her power came from Takhisis. Possessed one might even say. ;)
According to the novels he was a high level Knight of the Rose.In order to get that high and meet all the requirements put him at 20th level..He is a 40th lv bad guy....CR45...
Or you could put your pcs thru the chaos war...see how they would react to the gods leaving...magic going wacky..no cleric spells...put them thru war of souls...it would be an interesting change..and challenge to them..
Just a thought.
Originally posted by darthsylver
I will grant you this though, in the sense that Mina did "epic" actions o-kay then she is an epic character in the sense of the word. I do not however concede that she is an epic (20th+ level) character. She has no epic power whatsoever now that Takhisis is gone. She may have some mystic and fighter abilities (long shot about the mystic). I don't think she believed in herself enough to actually have any mystic ability. All her power came from Takhisis. Possessed one might even say. ;)
Umm... sorry but couldn't you apply the same principle of "without a God you wouldn't have epic abilities" to just about any deity-following Epic Cleric? Does that mean that any epic level, deityless Clerics (and Paladins?) also become non-epic? (I would admit the become a bit screwed but that’s kind of different), and since they get much of their abilities from a deity then therefore they were never really epic in the first place?
It should perhaps be pointed out that the “realism” in the Dragonlance books means that no-one I can remember ever appeared to possess epic level fighting ability (well bar perhaps Mina, ironically)
Baron the Curse
Mina's leadership technique consisted mostly of “do as I say or the One God shall smite thee!”. All Mina has now is her personality. Well, I guess she’s screw.
*Sneaks up behind Baron and smites him righteously* “HAIL TO MINA …etc”
I totally disagree, throughout the book many people seemed attracted to her because of her charisma rather than bothering with some fickle God she accreddited everything to, yes it was often the miracles got their attention but they also cared about her due to her personal character, the most prominent being of course Galdar, although Dogah and Samuval also seemed pretty loyal to her as well. Remember not all her acts involved miracles; for example there was also whole “Forced March to the Silvanesti Shield” where she stubbornly refused to use a horse when all her troops/followers were on foot and refused to give up, even as she became utterly exhausted (the fact that she had to physically collapse shows how far she had exerted herself).
In fact quite alot of the plot later on seems to revolve around the fact that Mina seemed to be winning followers by personality and hence Takhisis grew Jealous, this caused Galdar to doubt the true God.
I quite like you're Camapign Idea, although are you saying that there have always been Drow on Krynn, just no-ones known about them, or that this is now some kind of invasion by them from somewhere else? You mentioned that Jiathuli is an “outcast handmaiden of Takhisis”, has she therefore been trapped/barred somewhere along with her Drow then? Or have the Drow just been hiding while she’s been exiled? (These details can be really kind of important)
It is a significant step away from normal Dragonlance and does change the setting quite a bit, but then maybe that’s what you need for epic Dragonlance campaign. (I would point this out to you're players at the start, if they haven't already got the idea, "world-breaking" is fine providing people know that it's going to happen, as some DL puritans may get a little annoyed)
I like the idea of a reoccurring Villains, and previously met NPC’s who become villains even more, just don’t give them ****ing hats of disguise…
Originally posted by Illithidbix
I quite like you're Camapign Idea, although are you saying that there have always been Drow on Krynn, just no-ones known about them, or that this is now some kind of invasion by them from somewhere else? You mentioned that Jiathuli is an “outcast handmaiden of Takhisis”, has she therefore been trapped/barred somewhere along with her Drow then? Or have the Drow just been hiding while she’s been exiled? (These details can be really kind of important)
Jiathuli is a somewhat half-hearted attempt by Wild Elves author Scott Bennie to bring Lolth into Dragonlance along with the drow elves who apparently crashed in a Spelljammer vessel. Kagonesti elves trying to find the Valley of Perfect Silences run into the drow and much elven conflict ensues.
It's interesting that the existing drow conventions are borrowed in describing Jiathuli as a "handmaiden of Takhisis", as Lolth has her own handmaidens (the yochlol).
I'm of the mind to quietly ignore Wild Elves entirely, but I can see the appeal in folks who want to introduce drow and need a convenient demigoddess to help them out.
Cheers,
Cam
As far as being an epic character it would depend on the way the person became epic in the first place. Take this two examples:
One - A person brings together nations into alliance through his diplomatic way of talking and being very charismatic. This nations then defeat a world threathening menace and the character is credited with the victory because he brought the nations together.
Second - A person travels through out the world bringing word that there exists a deity other than jesus and can prove by performing miracles that are unheard of. And then one day the miracles just stop.
Who is the truly epic character?
I am now preparing my fireproof shields.
Alright let's go with Raistlin. We all agree that he is an epic character. He had immense power prior to entering the Abyss. Yet when he returns to the world he has no power. Is he still an epicly powerful person, or just someone who has an epic reputation?
Incoming fireballs. Duck, duck. :D :D :D
First, there are the rewards of adventuring. You cannot say that Mina's new weapon isn't an epic weapon. She will still have her absurd charisma and be able to fight incredibly, because her BAB and class abilities remain the same, even if she's now lacking spells. Remember that clerics are the second line of defence in the normal party, with the added ability of being able to pick up the pieces after a fight. Well, she can't pick up the pieces any more, but she can still do the other non-spell epic things. As can Palin, Raistlin still seemed to be in the know despite a lack of power, and so on.
One - A person brings together nations into alliance through his diplomatic way of talking and being very charismatic. This nations then defeat a world threathening menace and the character is credited with the victory because he brought the nations together.
Didn't Mina unite (forcefully) a number of nations, having come out of nowhere, using her own charisma rather than just the One God's spells. She only used them to heal at the end of the day, barring the occasional amber forcecage thing and weird energy bolts. Mina also did manage to use her armies to successfully assault Sanction, and from there did manage to defeat Malys. She was epic.
Now onto Mina. As far as Mina's abilities I do not believe that Mina has or ever had any epic level abilites. I think that she might have had some minor power and that this was enhanced through her connection to Takhisis. Mina was the one and only Cleric of Takhisis at the time and Takhisis could therefore practicaly grant all her power to Mina. Could you imagine a character under the effects of a true strike spell at all times? Now imagine a character who is essentially infused with the complete power of her god. This is how I see Mina.
Before the Night of Storms Mina had virtually no fighting ability. In her fighting whenever she did, Takhisis could have used her power to insure that nothing happened to her. With no other gods around there was nothing to stop Takhisis.
If she could do all these things in the books, why not just allow that she is epic? Takhisis may have given her a lot of power, but it wasn't solely this that lead Mina to her destiny at Sanction. Takhisis, and in fct, all gods, are well known for picking people who will rise to the task given them. Why should she use some whiny little girl for her tasks, unless the girl could bring something to it? She had faith, and the greater the faith, the more the cleric is rewarded, and it is represented by levels. The other gifts of Takhisis are represented by the Medallion of the One God and when Takhisis actually appeared to her. The Medallion did increase her powers - by an effective 5 levels of clerical ability. Takhisis wouldn't have wanted someone who needed constant attention, but a little thing like that...
I'm of the belief that "going epic" should be considered an event of sorts. The character might have to do something special to exceed 20th level - for example, Raistlin had to go back in time and study under Fistandantilus.
Possible epic locations: Dargaard Keep (chock full of nastiness), Skullcap (you can practically make up anything you want in here), Storm's Keep (not only does it contain a death knight, but one of his skeletal warriors is a blue dragon - ouch).
Feal-Thas, the resurrected (or undead) "Shadow Dragon Highlord"?
Age of Mortals also mentions that many of Chemosh's followers are rousing themselves after years/decades/centuries of slumber and/or laziness.
Gnomish experiments on Pyrothraxus could have given him the equivalent of super-powers - so now there's an insane, greatly powerful dragon running about.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Jiathuli is a somewhat half-hearted attempt by Wild Elves author Scott Bennie to bring Lolth into Dragonlance along with the drow elves who apparently crashed in a Spelljammer vessel. Kagonesti elves trying to find the Valley of Perfect Silences run into the drow and much elven conflict ensues.
It's interesting that the existing drow conventions are borrowed in describing Jiathuli as a "handmaiden of Takhisis", as Lolth has her own handmaidens (the yochlol).
I'm of the mind to quietly ignore Wild Elves entirely, but I can see the appeal in folks who want to introduce drow and need a convenient demigoddess to help them out.
Cheers,
Cam
It is a tragic truth that Dragonlance has a long list of contradictions that has driven insane a majority of hardcore fan boys and canon-driven gamers for years. What’s official? I would say anything that is officially printed with the Dragonlance Logo on it should count as canon. Yet, following that philosophy this means that at one point Krynn had every variety of Lycanthropes, drows, and even the Sons of Kyuss! I know for a fact all of these beasties made an appearance in The World of Krynn (DL 16), and right above the title and just below the Dragonlance logo of the book it reads “Official Game Adventure”.
What’s a DM to do when you have the very authors then say this is not official, sorry if you where looking for canon, but thanks for your money. Each of us has a different answer for that. Myself, I said screw it! I’ll do what I like with Krynn! Like you Cam, after reading Wild Elves, I decided to disregard most of the book, after all what’s the fun in brining in drows if only Wild Elves get to go through the adventure. So I took Jiathuli, I took Chorane, mixed it with my own original ideas, and weaved a five-year larger-than-life tale that will come to an epic closing. And the greatest part of all I took a great concept like Jiathuli and was able to rewrite her history and motives in a fashion that preserved the “mood” of Dragonlance. It’s been a fun campaign that has expanded from 2ed to 3ed to 3.5ed.
Illithidbix, after checking Mina’s Cha of 21! I’ll concede. I still don’t like her though, specially after one of her One God lackeys backstabbed me!
Why would Takhisis use a (as you put it) whiny little girl is because she is easily manipulated.
But the big and number reason Takhisis would use Mina specifically - she had been adopted by Goldmoon.
We have no idea where Mina comes from, where she went for three years or what she did. For all we know about Mina she could be a child of Takhisis.
Why do I think the book makers gave Mina what she has is someone got all caught up in the books and were not sure how to translate it into the proper games rules.
When Mina first met Galdar she had no fighting ability whatsoever. A 12th level cleric has at least fair fighting abilities. Mina could not have learned to become a 12th level cleric in the time of the three novels if she had no fighting abilities at the begining of the book. Yes I know she healed Galdar's arm almost immediately upon meeting him, Takhisis gave her that power (she cheated the rules because there were no in effect but hers).
Let's look at Dalamar - he is only a 17th level wizard. He also hurled a lightning bolt back at a Blue dragon and killed it with it.
Palin is only an 18th level character and he has studied both the arcane magic, the sorcerous magic and even cast the spell to help banish, chase away, or whatever you want to call it when fighting Chaos.
Goldmoon - The woman who brought back the gods, found mysticism and founded a school based and she is only a 19th level character.
Laurana - The golden general is only a 16th level character.
I can't wait until Raistlin comes out. A man who had the power to bring down the gods and he will probably be only maybe a 22nd level character.
People will often throw Ariakas saying well he was a 23th Cleric/10th Fighter. Remember, in 3.5 he’ll loose 6 levels in conversion. Now, something else I want to address. If in the novels Ariakas was one of the most powerful Black Robes how does one explain his Int 13? He can’t even cast 4th level spells!
They will probably heavily redo him for third ed. I hope. First they should finally make him a wizard instead of a cleric. Also they should give him his stats based off from what is in the books. 13 intelligence the guys a military genius in kyrnn.
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
People will often throw Ariakas saying well he was a 23th Cleric/10th Fighter. Remember, in 3.5 he’ll loose 6 levels in conversion. Now, something else I want to address. If in the novels Ariakas was one of the most powerful Black Robes how does one explain his Int 13? He can’t even cast 4th level spells!
He has an Int 13 when he's a cleric. One assumes stats for him as a former/current Black Robe will include an appropriate boost to his Intelligence.
Cheers,
Cam
I mean you never see him out of that suit!!!:D :D :D
Part of the characters never receiving the recognition they deserve was the fact that if you reached 20th level the gods would banish you from the relam. Apparanetly this changes with the upgrade given to DL in 3.5, even though the designers decided not to change other "official" rulings about DL like certain creatures being unsetting like for DL (yes I am talking about Lycans, Drow and others).
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
I assumed he was an ex-Black Robe turn Cleric of Takhisis in the adventure module since it was written by W&H, who I consider excellent authors, but not the best game designers.
He was a Clr23/Ftr10, and Margaret didn't have anything to do with writing the modules. Tracy, Doug Niles, Harold Johnson, Jeff Grubb, and other authors (all of whom were industry favorites at the time) were responsible for them.
Margaret and Tracy wanted him to be a Black Robe in the books to differentiate him from Verminaard, and they didn't have to concern themselves with stats.
Cheers,
Cam
So if Ariakus was a cleric of Nuitari he could easily be mistaken for a Black Robe or vice versa.
So to solve all the confusion make Ariakus a Wiz23\Ftr10 in 2e and then convert to 3.5. Balancing WoHS levels out of his Wiz.
Then when you play him you have him bluff everyone into thinking he is a cleric so that he may avoid being declared a renegade because any backlash from his actions will be blamed on Takhisis not Wizards or even Nuitari.
You know now that I think of it, I would say that this is something Nuitari would even approve of. Either way if things work his mom is not on krynn and can help him, if Ariakus fails it will be blamed on Takhisis not Nuitari.
Yeah, I think I will actually use that.
Originally posted by darthsylver
His dragonarmor helm acted as a headband of intelligence and he has other stuff to give him an intelligence boost. But because this things are not permanent his Int does not change.
I mean you never see him out of that suit!!!:D :D :D
So he was kinda like Tony Stark?
So how many epic level characters in DL can we agree on?
Raistlin/Fistandantilus is probably a definite candidate. I am willing to bet Ariakas was also. Are there any others?
Originally posted by darthsylver
Well you do need to remeber that when these modules were written up it was possible to have clerics for the gods of magic.
No, it wasn't.
That particular thorny and much-debated issue came later.Cheers,
Cam
Oh, I don't use clumsy flame-balls, they're for amateurs.
*Draws Vorpal-blade of pure reason +7* :D
Well, personally I was using the rather simplistic view that Epic Level Characters are those capable of doing the stuff put aside for Epic Level characters in the Epic Level Handbook. I personally don't think there is a necessary relationship between what a person can do and what influence and impact they have on the world (although I agree that a truly exceptional person is more likely to have an impact, it depends if they can be at the right place at the right time).
As for Epic Level being measured in terms accomplishments, well you could argue that these often depend on a lot of circumstances beyond the control of the character. Now to do something that could be slightly irritating in a D&D debate, use examples from real life. Points still stand though.
I mean what levels would you asign to Hitler and Churchill?
To kind of refine my point, take for example a less obvious but very influential historical figure like Alan Turing (one of the few people I could consider as some kind of personal "hero"). He has had a far greater lasting impact upon the world due to his influence the course of history (it is perfectly conceivable that without the code-breaking he achieved that Britain would have been forced into submission in WWII before America had even entered the War) and technology (his pioneering work on programming and AI is utterly astonishing even from a modern prospective, let alone back in the 40's), than most uber-epic mages have ever done on Fauren. Would this make Alan Turing Epic level if we tried to convert him into D&D stats? (Of course D20 Modern would perhaps be more appropriate).
(Cue to image of a mild mannered man in a tweed suit wielding noting more than a notebook filled with Mathematics forcing Drizzt backwards to the edge of a tower :D )
(Admittedly White Wolf in Mage the Ascension did have Turing as one of the prime creators of a substantial part of their cosmology)
Similarly in translating from Dragonlance Novels to D&D stats, as you pointed out many of the Characters who greatly influenced the course of Kyrnn's history were technically not very high level (at the time the did them at least), for example Tika saving Gilthas's life in the Inn of the Last Home. Therefore there is no necessary relationship between a person¡'s personal capabilities and the influence they have on history, it depends on many factors.
The D&D game uses an abstracted class and level system, mainly to keep the game in a nice tidy, balanced and playable state. However this does lead to odd results, for example, any mage capable of a magical feat of the scale of teleportation (5th level spell, so 9th level wizard, also has the raw fighting ability above that of most of the elite soldiers in the world (represented in game terms of pure Attack bonus and Hp). However in a Dragonlance Novel you wouldn't expect Palin to be able to out fight most members of the Knights of Neraka using only a Sword and using absolutely no Magic unless it was an otherwise uneven fight. Hence D&D novel writers don't stick to this system. Simially Mina being a 17 year old girl, brought up in the Citidel of Light, had no weapons training, despite the fact that the game says that all Clerics are proficient with simple weapons. However if you then translated her to D&D stats at that point, just because she wasn't trained in use of a crossbow does this mean that Mina shouldn't have had any levels of Cleric?
Anyway in comparing the abstracted D&D system with the "reality" presented in the stories I think a nice little statement of mine applies:
"Any kind of theory is an abstraction of reality, this means that it is invariably simpler than actuality and hence will produce results that don't fit. If you want a theory that totally encapsulates reality, it would have to be reality itself ¡V me
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
Illithidbix, after checking Mina's Cha of 21! I'll concede. I still don't like her though, specially after one of her One God lackeys backstabbed me!
It wasn't backstabbing at all, it was a Righteous Smiting that happened to occur when you were facing in the opposite direction. :P
And Mina's a lovely girl, just a bit over-enthusiastic at times.
Anyway, with you¡¦re campaign have you come up with any answers to what the Drow where the Drow have been and what they have been doing since Jiathuli was banished?
Even if this particular route (Ariakus being a cleric of Nuitari pretending to be a cleric of takhisis or being mistaken for a Black Robe) does not work because it is not available, then you could say that Ariakus was a Black Robed Wizard who was pretending to be a Cleric of Takhisis and therefore any backlash would result in people being made at Takhisis (no surprise there) and not Nuitari or the WoHS.
Wait didn't I say that before?
Illithidbix - I did not think you would throw the fireballs, I anticipated the fireballs coming from Raistlin fans. As far as Mina goes I would call her an Epic character, but I judt don't think she should be a 20th level character.