Can Liches Still Be WoHS? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Can Liches Still Be WoHS?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Dec 18, 2003 15:10:49 Is there anything preventing a Black Robe wizard from becoming a Lich and remaining in the good graces of the Wizards? I'm envisioning an aging human black-robe as master of the tower of Palanthas/Nightlund, and in order to cheat death, becoming a lich and remaining as master of the tower. Would this work?
#2
zombiegleemax
Dec 18, 2003 17:48:11 It might. There is only one thing that bothers me about this idea...

Nuitari Vs. Chemosh

Now, there might not be a direct conflict here, but there might be one as well. Chemosh is the lord of the undead, etc, etc. A Lich is clearly undead. But Nuitari is the god of evil magic, and so has an important hold in the matter.

My best guess is that it could fly. Nuitari would not hold Necromancy as one of his schools if he were not able to make use of it. Chemosh might be understandably jealous, though, or might have some sort of sway in the matter. Or perhaps Chemosh did a favor for Nuitari and the Lich in letting him exist, which the Lich may very well have to repay (to both masters, potentially). But that might be getting a little deity-dependant.

Just some suggestions. Overall, though, I think it's possible. Just give the lich some great backstory.
#3
Dragonhelm
Dec 18, 2003 18:01:03
Originally posted by The Udjat
It might. There is only one thing that bothers me about this idea...

Nuitari Vs. Chemosh

Good eye!

Udjat has a very good point here in that this may go against the natural order of things. However, there is conflicting precedent.

Lord Ausric Kell (sp?), the new death knight, was the creation of Zeboim. And what about Lord Soth? IIRC, he was not created by Chemosh.

Also consider that not all undead are evil. What of the new spirits assisting the aesthetics of the Library of Palanthas?

Chemosh may be the primary god of the undead, especially evil undead, but I would say that he is not the only god who has influence over the undead.
#4
Charles_Phipps
Dec 18, 2003 19:34:44 I do think most Liches are renegades though.

Their unholy nature isn't recently condusive to large social gatherings at the tower unless they find magical ways around that chill aura and maybe illusions for the stench and gloves.

(which is entirely possible and probably what most Black Robe lichs do when they do visit)

After all the Towers are still an amazing resource of knowledge.

But Chemosh and Nuthari are pretty much no doubt probably quite okay with Lichs probably BRINGING them together more than it divides them.

After all...

Liches make undead usually...lots of undead.

Undead helps Chemosh.

Liches are scary, Scary helps Chemosh

Liches live forever, which helps Nuthari

Its more of a joint project. When the Lich PERMANENTLY dies I assume the two gods let the Lich pick whichever Hell-Heaven they want to go to. Its not something to get excited over after all since both have probably profitted handsomely from the mortal pawn.

Just like Soth was cursed by all the gods yet served Takhasis and constantly praised Chemosh (saying his soul lied with him)

I imagine it worked out something like

Takhasis gets whatever use she wants out of Soth and his undead minions
Chemosh gets Soth's souls and his minions souls when its done

Everybody's happy
Just because their evil doesn't mean they can't OCCASIONALLY work together
#5
Dragonhelm
Dec 18, 2003 19:56:24 Okay, let me expand on this topic some.

What about vampires?

I just have this vision of a vampire black robe mage.
#6
zombiegleemax
Dec 18, 2003 20:01:14 The Dark Queen didn't have a total monopoly on Dragons so Chemosh
can't have a total monopoly on undeath either. Be that as it may, I think Liches are around on Krynn but are "Very Rare."
#7
Charles_Phipps
Dec 18, 2003 20:33:37 Officially Vampires don't exist on Krynn.

Unofficially its probably much the same situation with Chemosh and Nuathari only add Takhasis in this since the **** Queen is more likely behind vampires than

"I am ugly, dead, and ****ed off" Chemosh
#8
Dragonhelm
Dec 18, 2003 20:45:13
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Officially Vampires don't exist on Krynn.

Tell that to Vampire Kryl from the Tales of the Lance boxed set! ;)
#9
zombiegleemax
Dec 18, 2003 20:51:21 Officially, Vampires do exist. Check out the Tales of the Lance boxed set for an actual DL vampire. I think there may be more.

EDIT: Doh! Trampas beat me to it!

But they are exceedingly rare, it seems.

I would consider vampires much more bonded to Chemosh than a Lich, who is, after all, driven to his state by lust for magic (and eternal life, but it's generally eternal life for magic). Then again, the same could be said for a vampire.

I suppose vampires would work more on a case-by-case basis. In general, I would consider them servants of Chemosh, but servants of Chemosh in the way that minotaurs are servants of Sargonnas. There's some amount of choice involved. A vampire could abandon Chemosh in favor of Nuitari, for the magic, just as a minotaur could leave Sargonnas for any other god (but most likely Kiri-Jolith) - He'd probably be greatly frowned upon, and I might limit some of the vampire's power over undead (were I DM). Or perhaps, as was suggested above, the two deities make an agreement on the matter. But I'm more in favor of the opposed-to-each-other perspective.

Quite an interesting subject. I'd hate for Chemosh to only be lord of the mindless undead, but I also don't want to restrict all undead to serving Chemosh...
#10
zombiegleemax
Dec 18, 2003 20:56:30
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Officially Vampires don't exist on Krynn.

Who says? Why wouldn't they be? I see no problem with vampires on Krynn, and I believe there have been several sightings in the games and novels, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything *points at a half-orc wandering the streets of Kendermore*.
#11
zombiegleemax
Dec 18, 2003 22:19:57 Uh, yeah like everyone said vampires do exist in krynn. according to:
Tales of the lance
The Beastiary
dragonlance book of lairs

uh there are a few others as well
#12
zombiegleemax
Dec 18, 2003 22:20:12 Fistandantilus was a lich (and then a demi-lich) and he was still a Black Robe.

BTW, he was later considered (pretty much a) renegade because of his mad schemes (notably, trying to take down Takhisis) not directly because of his undeathness (heh, I think I just invented a word).

note to self: yer still using too many parenthesis.
#13
Matthew_L._Martin
Dec 18, 2003 23:52:30
Originally posted by The Udjat
It might. There is only one thing that bothers me about this idea...

Nuitari Vs. Chemosh

Lichdom was a joint project of theirs, actually; it expands both the power of Black Sorcery _and_ of death and the undead, more often than not.

Matthew L. Martin, who made that so.
#14
Charles_Phipps
Dec 19, 2003 0:00:13 and supplements

so forgive me

Excuse me but wasn't fairly clear that Fistantaniulius' power rested with his magic brooch? Doesn't being a Lich negate much of his suffering for immortality?
#15
ferratus
Dec 19, 2003 0:31:56 There is only one reason that a lich might be considered a renegade and a problem for the existance of magic. That reason is simply that if Black Robes become liches as a matter of course, the entire upper echelons of that order would be dominated by them.

This might be problematic for magic, because liches are probably less likely to take apprentices and won't pass on their magical secrets after their deaths (because they don't die). They are also likely to take all the plum positions in the conclave and hold them for an eternal amount of time. A problem if that is one of the carrots of joining the order in the first place.

So I could certainly see being a lich or some other form of intelligent undead as being problematic with the conclave. It would be my preference to make becoming a lich an offense that would make you a renegade. If you could solve the above problems though, I wouldn't object.
#16
dragontooth
Dec 19, 2003 0:38:21 Vampires exist on Krynn. If my memory serves me right I remember seeing in the old 2nd or maybe 1st ed a offical write up Monster of Krynnfor a Kender Vampire.. of course that could of been for Ravenloft as well.
#17
Charles_Phipps
Dec 19, 2003 0:43:34 Furthermore the kender were created by magical experimentations by Soth and could not reproduce naturally (or unnaturally)
#18
zombiegleemax
Dec 19, 2003 11:52:34
Originally posted by ferratus
[Liches] are also likely to take all the plum positions in the conclave and hold them for an eternal amount of time. A problem if that is one of the carrots of joining the order in the first place.

That was the reason why I thought of this. I see an aging human black-robe who worked his/her butt off to get to the top of his/her order, only to be disappointed that they can't live long enough to enjoy it. I really see this as better for a master of a tower (likely Palanthas/Nightlund) instead of a member of the conclave, primarily due to the necessary interactions with other good and neutral members of the conclave who might not like dealing with a Lich.
#19
ferratus
Dec 19, 2003 12:39:30
Originally posted by WickerKing
That was the reason why I thought of this. I see an aging human black-robe who worked his/her butt off to get to the top of his/her order, only to be disappointed that they can't live long enough to enjoy it. I really see this as better for a master of a tower (likely Palanthas/Nightlund) instead of a member of the conclave, primarily due to the necessary interactions with other good and neutral members of the conclave who might not like dealing with a Lich.

Or the lesser members of the same order. I don't know about you, but I don't fancy a lifetime of servitude to a cabal of Liches that will horde their magical secrets.

Yeah, Liches in the WOHS is definately a problem.
#20
zombiegleemax
Dec 19, 2003 15:24:34 btw, DL14, DoSD, the liches in the dungeons of neraka, that confronted Raistlin etc. were still Black Robes I think. Would have to check.
#21
zombiegleemax
Dec 19, 2003 16:18:42
Originally posted by ferratus
Or the lesser members of the same order. I don't know about you, but I don't fancy a lifetime of servitude to a cabal of Liches that will horde their magical secrets.

Yeah, Liches in the WOHS is definately a problem.

If that's what said liches were doing, I don't think Nuitari would be too happy with them either. The point is that these liches would/could be vast stores of knowledge for the Black Robes, quite an asset that the other orders wouldn't have access to. It's similar to what a Baelnorn is, except that it's evil and not necessarily elven.

Remember that a WoHS first loyalty is to magic itself. This is one of the things the test is supposed to determine. If said wizard begins screwing over magic for his or her personal gain, then they become a renegade. If, however, said wizard takes on undeath to continue their work to the benefit of magic, I don't see why Nuitari would have a problem with it.
#22
Charles_Phipps
Dec 19, 2003 17:33:26 Then again it's a standing rule Liches can't gain levels in my games.

Thus they trade their magic forever for immortality.
#23
zombiegleemax
Dec 19, 2003 18:29:34 First of all, all liches are going to be fairly smart. Thus, they will try and get oils of timelessness, which cease aging in non-living matter. So that stops the problems of rotting and smelling and so on. Failing that, a hat of disguise, and a permanent prestidigitation to remove smell works quite well.

I was also thinking that perhaps liches are allowed in the WoHS, but are simply not allowed to have positions of influence, so no seats on the conclave, apprentices, or whatever. There's also the fact that most people aren't going to want to die, yet still live. It'd be all icky, or something, and with the level adjustment of liches, it'd be a long time before they actually became any more powerful in magic.
#24
zombiegleemax
Dec 19, 2003 21:08:48 In one of the box adventures it has a small monster manual and they give a short discription about lichs but adds that they are the creation of both Nuitari and Chemosh working together. Thats just what I read.
#25
zombiegleemax
Dec 20, 2003 1:30:07
Originally posted by pddisc
First of all, all liches are going to be fairly smart. Thus, they will try and get oils of timelessness, which cease aging in non-living matter. So that stops the problems of rotting and smelling and so on. Failing that, a hat of disguise, and a permanent prestidigitation to remove smell works quite well.

Prestidigitation can't be made permanent but gentle repose lasts for 11 days (minimum for a lich). No need for anything else but that 3rd level Necromancy spell.
#26
zombiegleemax
Dec 20, 2003 8:30:57 Well, I disagree that only spells in the description for permanency should be able to be made permanent, but I deal with the spells on a case by case basis. Basically, I'll stick to trying to think if whatever the effect was should instead be a magical item, and therefore related to item creation feats. Since you're not limited to only the items in the back of the DMG, why should you be limited to only the spells in the description of permanency?

But equally, if you're making a magical hat of disguise, you might as well add prestidigitation to the hat, to make you smell nice through that as well. And limit the hats capabilities to make you only look like you did in life. Or something.

Illithidbix, don't read this. Spoilers for campaign.

Well, the lich I've briefly had appear in my campaign was a Black Robe WoHS who went renegade, and was entombed beneath Sanction by (I think) the combined might of 3 WoHS of the different colours. Although a renegade, it was only because he'd carelessly destroyed a much earlier Sanction that he'd become so, so was still loyal to Nuitari. When the PCs went in his tower (after releasing him from his centuries long confinement (hahahaha!!)), they found a shrine to both Chemosh and Nuitari combined. Incidentally, he was using the oil of timelessness, and had a few spare jars in his lab. When a PC tried each of the potions to try and get an idea of what they did, they swallowed an amount of the oil. So somewhere, somewhen, there's some perfectly preserved human... well, elfish... waste. Hmm. That's just given me an idea for the next 'random' encounter.
#27
zombiegleemax
Dec 20, 2003 14:13:15
Originally posted by pddisc
Well, I disagree that only spells in the description for permanency should be able to be made permanent, but I deal with the spells on a case by case basis. Basically, I'll stick to trying to think if whatever the effect was should instead be a magical item, and therefore related to item creation feats. Since you're not limited to only the items in the back of the DMG, why should you be limited to only the spells in the description of permanency?

Well, you won't find me saying that in my post above. But I do have to keep in mind that to run a D&D DL campaign players only need the 3 core rulebooks + DLCS. I can't expect DMs to run certain homerules or to use certain sourcebooks for extra feats/spells/magic items. Because of this, since prestidigitation is not on the permanency list I can't assume every DM will accept it as a permanent spell. ;)
#28
zombiegleemax
Dec 20, 2003 15:21:52
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Then again it's a standing rule Liches can't gain levels in my games.

Thus they trade their magic forever for immortality.

Thats cool, but it takes away the reason why a lich becomes a lich in the first place....they want to live longer as to gain more power in magic.....if they cant do that then why would they do it? That doesnt make much sense.
#29
zombiegleemax
Dec 20, 2003 16:08:59 They get immortality. OK, they don't get any more levels, but presumably they can continue to learn new spells, research new spells, and create new magic items, as well as experiment on living or unliving creatures and all those other things mages can do at high levels. They just can't get any better at casting spells. If they still earn experience, they can feel free to create as amny magical items as they'd want, because it'd not stop their advancement, their lichdom would already be. Having a stale amount of simply magical power, and a varying amount of simply power is going to be far better than death.
#30
stunspore
Dec 23, 2003 9:58:28 How about liches serving as the admin staff for teh council? Like a walking office and library? A few would be cursed to guard or serve places, like the ones at the Tower of Palanthas. The free-willed ones would be around spreading evil or whatever (like the Brothers Majere novel).
#31
zombiegleemax
Dec 23, 2003 10:16:09 I didn't think Brothers Majere was evil... maybe I read it wrong.
#32
zombiegleemax
Dec 29, 2003 20:03:10 Don't forget that Level Adjustment drastically slows advancement. ... so to say they don't advance wouldn't be correct (except in one poster's game). But, after becoming a lich, they advance much more slowly.
#33
zombiegleemax
Dec 30, 2003 23:07:30 I don't see what the problem would be. It would require some sort of work between Chemosh and Nuitari, but alot of Chemosh's high priest are liches and they do not use arcane magic at all. Or thats what the Age of Mortals book said. Being a lich would just provide a method for a wizard to study magic beyond his mortal life. In that way the Orders would look favorably on it, though conversly they would have to fear the power that some of these beings would get. So who knows, probably not unheard of though very rare.
#34
zombiegleemax
Jan 01, 2004 19:09:23 Chemosh! Bah. What's he done lately?

I see the lich not as a servant of any god - but as one who woud cheat the law of death so that the magic does not end. He is not a monster - he is among the most exceptional creatures of all who have ever lived on Krynn. Like Huma,. Sturm, Raistlin or Soth.

There is no room for Chemosh in *my*Lich's domain. He is there through mastery of the art and sheer will. The gods are for mortals to concern themselves over.

There ought not to be, I should think, many liches on all of Krynn. This is not Forgotten Realms where there is an Archmage in every town. Fistandantilus, as demi-lich, was one of the very few.

And that should be the clue here.

Stop thinking about the thing as a lich. A lich is a monster - an encounter. It's lame, boring and been done to death. I've fought a few dozen over the years. It's BORING.

Start thinking of your villain as a PERSON. As an archmage with motives, feelings, plans plots and desires who - for very personal and important reasons - manages to go beyond life to accomplish a purpose. He has a FATE, a reason for all of this.

Lord Soth is not a Death Knight - he is THE Death Knight because he is so fully realized.

Envision your villain in the same way and it wil be so. As for Chemosh and Nuitari - that's a mere hiccup along the way.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Dec 18, 2003 15:10:49	Is there anything preventing a Black Robe wizard from becoming a Lich and remaining in the good graces of the Wizards? I'm envisioning an aging human black-robe as master of the tower of Palanthas/Nightlund, and in order to cheat death, becoming a lich and remaining as master of the tower. Would this work?
#2 zombiegleemax Dec 18, 2003 17:48:11	It might. There is only one thing that bothers me about this idea... Nuitari Vs. Chemosh Now, there might not be a direct conflict here, but there might be one as well. Chemosh is the lord of the undead, etc, etc. A Lich is clearly undead. But Nuitari is the god of evil magic, and so has an important hold in the matter. My best guess is that it could fly. Nuitari would not hold Necromancy as one of his schools if he were not able to make use of it. Chemosh might be understandably jealous, though, or might have some sort of sway in the matter. Or perhaps Chemosh did a favor for Nuitari and the Lich in letting him exist, which the Lich may very well have to repay (to both masters, potentially). But that might be getting a little deity-dependant. Just some suggestions. Overall, though, I think it's possible. Just give the lich some great backstory.
#3 Dragonhelm Dec 18, 2003 18:01:03	Originally posted by The Udjat It might. There is only one thing that bothers me about this idea... Nuitari Vs. Chemosh Good eye! Udjat has a very good point here in that this may go against the natural order of things. However, there is conflicting precedent. Lord Ausric Kell (sp?), the new death knight, was the creation of Zeboim. And what about Lord Soth? IIRC, he was not created by Chemosh. Also consider that not all undead are evil. What of the new spirits assisting the aesthetics of the Library of Palanthas? Chemosh may be the primary god of the undead, especially evil undead, but I would say that he is not the only god who has influence over the undead.
#4 Charles_Phipps Dec 18, 2003 19:34:44	I do think most Liches are renegades though. Their unholy nature isn't recently condusive to large social gatherings at the tower unless they find magical ways around that chill aura and maybe illusions for the stench and gloves. (which is entirely possible and probably what most Black Robe lichs do when they do visit) After all the Towers are still an amazing resource of knowledge. But Chemosh and Nuthari are pretty much no doubt probably quite okay with Lichs probably BRINGING them together more than it divides them. After all... Liches make undead usually...lots of undead. Undead helps Chemosh. Liches are scary, Scary helps Chemosh Liches live forever, which helps Nuthari Its more of a joint project. When the Lich PERMANENTLY dies I assume the two gods let the Lich pick whichever Hell-Heaven they want to go to. Its not something to get excited over after all since both have probably profitted handsomely from the mortal pawn. Just like Soth was cursed by all the gods yet served Takhasis and constantly praised Chemosh (saying his soul lied with him) I imagine it worked out something like Takhasis gets whatever use she wants out of Soth and his undead minions Chemosh gets Soth's souls and his minions souls when its done Everybody's happy Just because their evil doesn't mean they can't OCCASIONALLY work together
#5 Dragonhelm Dec 18, 2003 19:56:24	Okay, let me expand on this topic some. What about vampires? I just have this vision of a vampire black robe mage.
#6 zombiegleemax Dec 18, 2003 20:01:14	The Dark Queen didn't have a total monopoly on Dragons so Chemosh can't have a total monopoly on undeath either. Be that as it may, I think Liches are around on Krynn but are "Very Rare."
#7 Charles_Phipps Dec 18, 2003 20:33:37	Officially Vampires don't exist on Krynn. Unofficially its probably much the same situation with Chemosh and Nuathari only add Takhasis in this since the ** Queen is more likely behind vampires than "I am ugly, dead, and **ed off" Chemosh
#8 Dragonhelm Dec 18, 2003 20:45:13	Originally posted by Charles Phipps Officially Vampires don't exist on Krynn. Tell that to Vampire Kryl from the Tales of the Lance boxed set! ;)
#9 zombiegleemax Dec 18, 2003 20:51:21	Officially, Vampires do exist. Check out the Tales of the Lance boxed set for an actual DL vampire. I think there may be more. EDIT: Doh! Trampas beat me to it! But they are exceedingly rare, it seems. I would consider vampires much more bonded to Chemosh than a Lich, who is, after all, driven to his state by lust for magic (and eternal life, but it's generally eternal life for magic). Then again, the same could be said for a vampire. I suppose vampires would work more on a case-by-case basis. In general, I would consider them servants of Chemosh, but servants of Chemosh in the way that minotaurs are servants of Sargonnas. There's some amount of choice involved. A vampire could abandon Chemosh in favor of Nuitari, for the magic, just as a minotaur could leave Sargonnas for any other god (but most likely Kiri-Jolith) - He'd probably be greatly frowned upon, and I might limit some of the vampire's power over undead (were I DM). Or perhaps, as was suggested above, the two deities make an agreement on the matter. But I'm more in favor of the opposed-to-each-other perspective. Quite an interesting subject. I'd hate for Chemosh to only be lord of the mindless undead, but I also don't want to restrict all undead to serving Chemosh...
#10 zombiegleemax Dec 18, 2003 20:56:30	Originally posted by Charles Phipps Officially Vampires don't exist on Krynn. Who says? Why wouldn't they be? I see no problem with vampires on Krynn, and I believe there have been several sightings in the games and novels, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything points at a half-orc wandering the streets of Kendermore.
#11 zombiegleemax Dec 18, 2003 22:19:57	Uh, yeah like everyone said vampires do exist in krynn. according to: Tales of the lance The Beastiary dragonlance book of lairs uh there are a few others as well
#12 zombiegleemax Dec 18, 2003 22:20:12	Fistandantilus was a lich (and then a demi-lich) and he was still a Black Robe. BTW, he was later considered (pretty much a) renegade because of his mad schemes (notably, trying to take down Takhisis) not directly because of his undeathness (heh, I think I just invented a word). note to self: yer still using too many parenthesis.
#13 Matthew_L._Martin Dec 18, 2003 23:52:30	Originally posted by The Udjat It might. There is only one thing that bothers me about this idea... Nuitari Vs. Chemosh Lichdom was a joint project of theirs, actually; it expands both the power of Black Sorcery _and_ of death and the undead, more often than not. Matthew L. Martin, who made that so.
#14 Charles_Phipps Dec 19, 2003 0:00:13	and supplements so forgive me Excuse me but wasn't fairly clear that Fistantaniulius' power rested with his magic brooch? Doesn't being a Lich negate much of his suffering for immortality?
#15 ferratus Dec 19, 2003 0:31:56	There is only one reason that a lich might be considered a renegade and a problem for the existance of magic. That reason is simply that if Black Robes become liches as a matter of course, the entire upper echelons of that order would be dominated by them. This might be problematic for magic, because liches are probably less likely to take apprentices and won't pass on their magical secrets after their deaths (because they don't die). They are also likely to take all the plum positions in the conclave and hold them for an eternal amount of time. A problem if that is one of the carrots of joining the order in the first place. So I could certainly see being a lich or some other form of intelligent undead as being problematic with the conclave. It would be my preference to make becoming a lich an offense that would make you a renegade. If you could solve the above problems though, I wouldn't object.
#16 dragontooth Dec 19, 2003 0:38:21	Vampires exist on Krynn. If my memory serves me right I remember seeing in the old 2nd or maybe 1st ed a offical write up Monster of Krynnfor a Kender Vampire.. of course that could of been for Ravenloft as well.
#17 Charles_Phipps Dec 19, 2003 0:43:34	Furthermore the kender were created by magical experimentations by Soth and could not reproduce naturally (or unnaturally)
#18 zombiegleemax Dec 19, 2003 11:52:34	Originally posted by ferratus [Liches] are also likely to take all the plum positions in the conclave and hold them for an eternal amount of time. A problem if that is one of the carrots of joining the order in the first place. That was the reason why I thought of this. I see an aging human black-robe who worked his/her butt off to get to the top of his/her order, only to be disappointed that they can't live long enough to enjoy it. I really see this as better for a master of a tower (likely Palanthas/Nightlund) instead of a member of the conclave, primarily due to the necessary interactions with other good and neutral members of the conclave who might not like dealing with a Lich.
#19 ferratus Dec 19, 2003 12:39:30	Originally posted by WickerKing That was the reason why I thought of this. I see an aging human black-robe who worked his/her butt off to get to the top of his/her order, only to be disappointed that they can't live long enough to enjoy it. I really see this as better for a master of a tower (likely Palanthas/Nightlund) instead of a member of the conclave, primarily due to the necessary interactions with other good and neutral members of the conclave who might not like dealing with a Lich. Or the lesser members of the same order. I don't know about you, but I don't fancy a lifetime of servitude to a cabal of Liches that will horde their magical secrets. Yeah, Liches in the WOHS is definately a problem.
#20 zombiegleemax Dec 19, 2003 15:24:34	btw, DL14, DoSD, the liches in the dungeons of neraka, that confronted Raistlin etc. were still Black Robes I think. Would have to check.
#21 zombiegleemax Dec 19, 2003 16:18:42	Originally posted by ferratus Or the lesser members of the same order. I don't know about you, but I don't fancy a lifetime of servitude to a cabal of Liches that will horde their magical secrets. Yeah, Liches in the WOHS is definately a problem. If that's what said liches were doing, I don't think Nuitari would be too happy with them either. The point is that these liches would/could be vast stores of knowledge for the Black Robes, quite an asset that the other orders wouldn't have access to. It's similar to what a Baelnorn is, except that it's evil and not necessarily elven. Remember that a WoHS first loyalty is to magic itself. This is one of the things the test is supposed to determine. If said wizard begins screwing over magic for his or her personal gain, then they become a renegade. If, however, said wizard takes on undeath to continue their work to the benefit of magic, I don't see why Nuitari would have a problem with it.
#22 Charles_Phipps Dec 19, 2003 17:33:26	Then again it's a standing rule Liches can't gain levels in my games. Thus they trade their magic forever for immortality.
#23 zombiegleemax Dec 19, 2003 18:29:34	First of all, all liches are going to be fairly smart. Thus, they will try and get oils of timelessness, which cease aging in non-living matter. So that stops the problems of rotting and smelling and so on. Failing that, a hat of disguise, and a permanent prestidigitation to remove smell works quite well. I was also thinking that perhaps liches are allowed in the WoHS, but are simply not allowed to have positions of influence, so no seats on the conclave, apprentices, or whatever. There's also the fact that most people aren't going to want to die, yet still live. It'd be all icky, or something, and with the level adjustment of liches, it'd be a long time before they actually became any more powerful in magic.
#24 zombiegleemax Dec 19, 2003 21:08:48	In one of the box adventures it has a small monster manual and they give a short discription about lichs but adds that they are the creation of both Nuitari and Chemosh working together. Thats just what I read.
#25 zombiegleemax Dec 20, 2003 1:30:07	Originally posted by pddisc First of all, all liches are going to be fairly smart. Thus, they will try and get oils of timelessness, which cease aging in non-living matter. So that stops the problems of rotting and smelling and so on. Failing that, a hat of disguise, and a permanent prestidigitation to remove smell works quite well. Prestidigitation can't be made permanent but gentle repose lasts for 11 days (minimum for a lich). No need for anything else but that 3rd level Necromancy spell.
#26 zombiegleemax Dec 20, 2003 8:30:57	Well, I disagree that only spells in the description for permanency should be able to be made permanent, but I deal with the spells on a case by case basis. Basically, I'll stick to trying to think if whatever the effect was should instead be a magical item, and therefore related to item creation feats. Since you're not limited to only the items in the back of the DMG, why should you be limited to only the spells in the description of permanency? But equally, if you're making a magical hat of disguise, you might as well add prestidigitation to the hat, to make you smell nice through that as well. And limit the hats capabilities to make you only look like you did in life. Or something. Illithidbix, don't read this. Spoilers for campaign. Well, the lich I've briefly had appear in my campaign was a Black Robe WoHS who went renegade, and was entombed beneath Sanction by (I think) the combined might of 3 WoHS of the different colours. Although a renegade, it was only because he'd carelessly destroyed a much earlier Sanction that he'd become so, so was still loyal to Nuitari. When the PCs went in his tower (after releasing him from his centuries long confinement (hahahaha!!)), they found a shrine to both Chemosh and Nuitari combined. Incidentally, he was using the oil of timelessness, and had a few spare jars in his lab. When a PC tried each of the potions to try and get an idea of what they did, they swallowed an amount of the oil. So somewhere, somewhen, there's some perfectly preserved human... well, elfish... waste. Hmm. That's just given me an idea for the next 'random' encounter.
#27 zombiegleemax Dec 20, 2003 14:13:15	Originally posted by pddisc Well, I disagree that only spells in the description for permanency should be able to be made permanent, but I deal with the spells on a case by case basis. Basically, I'll stick to trying to think if whatever the effect was should instead be a magical item, and therefore related to item creation feats. Since you're not limited to only the items in the back of the DMG, why should you be limited to only the spells in the description of permanency? Well, you won't find me saying that in my post above. But I do have to keep in mind that to run a D&D DL campaign players only need the 3 core rulebooks + DLCS. I can't expect DMs to run certain homerules or to use certain sourcebooks for extra feats/spells/magic items. Because of this, since prestidigitation is not on the permanency list I can't assume every DM will accept it as a permanent spell. ;)
#28 zombiegleemax Dec 20, 2003 15:21:52	Originally posted by Charles Phipps Then again it's a standing rule Liches can't gain levels in my games. Thus they trade their magic forever for immortality. Thats cool, but it takes away the reason why a lich becomes a lich in the first place....they want to live longer as to gain more power in magic.....if they cant do that then why would they do it? That doesnt make much sense.
#29 zombiegleemax Dec 20, 2003 16:08:59	They get immortality. OK, they don't get any more levels, but presumably they can continue to learn new spells, research new spells, and create new magic items, as well as experiment on living or unliving creatures and all those other things mages can do at high levels. They just can't get any better at casting spells. If they still earn experience, they can feel free to create as amny magical items as they'd want, because it'd not stop their advancement, their lichdom would already be. Having a stale amount of simply magical power, and a varying amount of simply power is going to be far better than death.
#30 stunspore Dec 23, 2003 9:58:28	How about liches serving as the admin staff for teh council? Like a walking office and library? A few would be cursed to guard or serve places, like the ones at the Tower of Palanthas. The free-willed ones would be around spreading evil or whatever (like the Brothers Majere novel).
#31 zombiegleemax Dec 23, 2003 10:16:09	I didn't think Brothers Majere was evil... maybe I read it wrong.
#32 zombiegleemax Dec 29, 2003 20:03:10	Don't forget that Level Adjustment drastically slows advancement. ... so to say they don't advance wouldn't be correct (except in one poster's game). But, after becoming a lich, they advance much more slowly.
#33 zombiegleemax Dec 30, 2003 23:07:30	I don't see what the problem would be. It would require some sort of work between Chemosh and Nuitari, but alot of Chemosh's high priest are liches and they do not use arcane magic at all. Or thats what the Age of Mortals book said. Being a lich would just provide a method for a wizard to study magic beyond his mortal life. In that way the Orders would look favorably on it, though conversly they would have to fear the power that some of these beings would get. So who knows, probably not unheard of though very rare.
#34 zombiegleemax Jan 01, 2004 19:09:23	Chemosh! Bah. What's he done lately? I see the lich not as a servant of any god - but as one who woud cheat the law of death so that the magic does not end. He is not a monster - he is among the most exceptional creatures of all who have ever lived on Krynn. Like Huma,. Sturm, Raistlin or Soth. There is no room for Chemosh in myLich's domain. He is there through mastery of the art and sheer will. The gods are for mortals to concern themselves over. There ought not to be, I should think, many liches on all of Krynn. This is not Forgotten Realms where there is an Archmage in every town. Fistandantilus, as demi-lich, was one of the very few. And that should be the clue here. Stop thinking about the thing as a lich. A lich is a monster - an encounter. It's lame, boring and been done to death. I've fought a few dozen over the years. It's BORING. Start thinking of your villain as a PERSON. As an archmage with motives, feelings, plans plots and desires who - for very personal and important reasons - manages to go beyond life to accomplish a purpose. He has a FATE, a reason for all of this. Lord Soth is not a Death Knight - he is THE Death Knight because he is so fully realized. Envision your villain in the same way and it wil be so. As for Chemosh and Nuitari - that's a mere hiccup along the way.