I mean Athas as two moons and a sun... not to mention a multitude of stars ( at least one merchant/trader calandar is base on this astrology) And if some of you asume that the gray is a ethereal barrier hence the fact that athasians can see the stars then were does the comet(the Messenger/space halfling ship/or what ever it is) go in its 77 years of travel(or rather 38 and a 1/2 before comming back in orbit around athas).
It is mention somewhere that Rajaat once traveled to other worlds(where he brought back artifacts) that doesn't mean he used astral travel, maybe just plane shift (through the ethereal plane)to other worlds contained in Athasian cosmos. Or maybe the black can be "found" in all worlds inside this said cosmo.
I like to think that Rajaat was also a planeshifter(as in the MotP) and the reason why he has never been able to free itself from his prison is because :
1--- Magical energies could not be drawn from the hollow: the hollow is "nothing" Even psionic would be dempend.
2--If left to himself, Rajaat would have been able to free itself(with the long study of its prison plane) this is why Borys kept a close eye on the black orb in Ur'draxa.
The Gray is preventing astral travel to other cosmologies but Athas doesn't have to be alone in its own.
And if some of you asume that the gray is a ethereal barrier hence the fact that athasians can see the stars then were does the comet(the Messenger/space halfling ship/or what ever it is) go in its 77 years of travel(or rather 38 and a 1/2 before comming back in orbit around athas).
In a normal setting, the ethereal plane itself is a barrier (albeit, one that is crossable by magic). That doesn't stop the people on that planet from seeing the starry night sky. The grey is not directly a physical barrier surrounding the planet. The 'cosmology maps' of Athas surrounded by the Grey are a direct analog to someone drawing a picture of the Earth with Heaven above it and Hell below it. Athas being surrounded by the barrier of the Grey is far more metaphysical than that. Hence, Athas, if you disregard spelljammer, is a single planet in a vast meta universe. If you include spelljamemr, then Athas is a single planet within its own isolated crystal sphere. Said sphere would have to be very large to encompass the 77 year orbital trajectory of the messenger. Spelljammer describes the stars as being sigils of energy (whose meanings are unknown) that are scattered about the inner surface of a crystal sphere, so as far as the Grey is concered, once again it would do nothing to hinder the night sky or the messenger. As for where it goes? It doesn't go anywhere except into space again after its usual fly-bye every few generations on its long orbital path.
The Gray is preventing astral travel to other cosmologies but Athas doesn't have to be alone in its own
Killer space halfings and giant space hamsters aside (as if we can really put them aside for long), I have no problem with the idea of other planets in the Athasian solar system being inhabited and capable of being traveled to, so long as its not in a futuristic science fiction sorta way. Magical condiuts I think are fine (depositing the party in very strange lands that are perhaps even more hostile than Athas), but lets keep the messenger as a comet and not a mothership and keep the sci-fi for Traveler, Mechwarrior and Rifts.
I like to think that Rajaat was also a planeshifter(as in the MotP) and the reason why he has never been able to free itself from his prison is because
I like the reasoning in #1, but expanding it even further:
The Hollow is not simply a little void at the ephemeric center of a big void. When you put something into that kind of 'nothingness', that something would almost cease to exist. That's the kind of prison the Hollow is. There's no physical form for those in the Hollow (and not just in the same way that a ghost has no physical form). There's no body, and hence no mind for those who are trapped there. There's no feeling, no thought, no life, no hope, no past, no tomorrow . . . nothing. I think that only Rajaat, with his sheer power and strength of will allowed him to exist for so long in that kind of state. Lesser beings would simply cease to be. Yet even for Rajaat, its not simply a matter of plotting and planning for the day to come when he can escape. In a place where time has no meaning, that day will never come. Thoughts flow with time. Thoughts originate within the mind. Without a body to house that mind and without time for those thoughts thoughts to flow in, one cannot plot and wait.
The comment I hope will be constructive is this one.
There's no reason to think that there aren't other planets around Athas's sun. Does cannon material state that there are no other stars? If not, we should leave this possibility open.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
The Hollow is not simply a little void at the ephemeric center of a big void. When you put something into that kind of 'nothingness', that something would almost cease to exist. That's the kind of prison the Hollow is. There's no physical form for those in the Hollow (and not just in the same way that a ghost has no physical form). There's no body, and hence no mind for those who are trapped there. There's no feeling, no thought, no life, no hope, no past, no tomorrow . . . nothing. I think that only Rajaat, with his sheer power and strength of will allowed him to exist for so long in that kind of state. Lesser beings would simply cease to be. Yet even for Rajaat, its not simply a matter of plotting and planning for the day to come when he can escape. In a place where time has no meaning, that day will never come. Thoughts flow with time. Thoughts originate within the mind. Without a body to house that mind and without time for those thoughts thoughts to flow in, one cannot plot and wait.
If the hollow is what you imply, why then did Borys went through so much trouble to keep an eye on the black sphere(which I suppose is the portal to Rajaat's prison in the hollow) in the middle of its domain in Ur'Draxa?? I mean if Rajaat went from "it" to "nothing" the Dragon shouldn't have been afraid of an escape. Just toss the sphere into lava, and be done with it. Roam Athas and rule it all!!!
Although I admit your description of the Hollow makes sence, I just dont see why Borys went through all the trouble.
There's no reason to think that there aren't other planets around Athas's sun. Does cannon material state that there are no other stars? If not, we should leave this possibility open.
Okay, have to take exception to this one. Keep in mind that the following is based on reality, not fantasy, so if you don't like it, or it doesn't fit with your campaign, ditch it.
All right, "planet" is from the Greek word "planetos." What does that mean? Wanderer. It got this name from the fact that as the Earth would catch up to, or pass by, planets in other orbits, they would seem to wander through the sky (in relation to the other stars). The Greeks noticed this very quickly, but couldn't really explain it. Regardless, these wandering stars were definitely seen and definitely recorded.
If there were planets in the Athasian system, people would have spotted them and included them in the Athasian equivalent of the Zodiac (from the Nibenay cards in Ivory Plain).
In my opinion, this lends credence to the fact that Athas was intentionally isolated from the rest of the multiverse. So much so that there are not even other planets in the system. Just one world, two moons, and one monstrous red giant star at the end of its life.
I stand corrected.
If the hollow is what you imply, why then did Borys went through so much trouble to keep an eye on the black sphere(which I suppose is the portal to Rajaat's prison in the hollow) in the middle of its domain in Ur'Draxa?? [snip] Just toss the sphere into lava, and be done with it. Roam Athas and rule it all!!!
I don't think that he was watching it in order to keep Rajaat from getting out, but more to stop someone else on the outside from letting him out. Which is exactly what happened. Rajaat did not escape. He was released. As for dropping it into lava, there was speculation on these boards by another poster (memory fails me on a daily basis, so I don't know who) that lava, being nothing more than molten obsidian, would be the worst place to toss the obsidian orb. It would melt the orb and mix with the lava creating a vast plain capable of focusing energy like the orb was. Yet, that is just where it resides due to Sadira and the others having been manipulated all along by Rajaat (granted, purely speculation, but I like it and have expanded upon it). Now, Rajaat, in his incarnation as the cerulean storm, is right over this immense power focus.
I mean if Rajaat went from "it" to "nothing"
Almost "nothing" or perhaps, "barely in existence", or even "kinda sorta a mote in his daddy's eye . . . ". Okay, more the first two than the last. Rational thought breaks down entirely when you try and think of how "something" can exist where "nothing" exists. Not just the emptiness of space kind of nothing, but the absence of existence itself. Even a void could not exist there. So how does Rajaat manage to hang on? By almost existing.
Originally posted by Afghan
Who says the Athasian system is Copernican? I think in the case of Dark Sun, the Ptolemaic model makes mores sense. This would certainly allow for 'dark planets' in farther orbits that would be invisible to the natives.
In one of my homebrew campaign i had planet travel made possible and the players had to find a mystic planet which turned out to be quite hard to find because indeed it was a black dot in the infinit space. Why?? because the planet was hollow. the world was inverted.(like a planet size cave with alien ecosystem since there were no sun. strangly, light was present in a strange way.)
the first campaign setting i ever bought and run was Spelljammer...at the same time my good buddy had just picked up the Dark Sun setting and started running a game parallel to my Spelljammer game. we eventually cross-pollinated the two (this was before all the Dark Sun supplemental material was released) and had a fantastic time of it.
later down the road, we switched off campaigns and i took over Dark Sun and he took over Spelljammer. at this time the revised edition was just being released and more info on life-shaped items and halfling nature masters was presented. him and i both sat down and thought about resurrecting our old Spelljammer/Athas campaign and incorporating the new halfling info into it.
for those of you who may remember the original source material on Spelljammer (the titular ship itself) it was sort of a living, sentient ship in and of its own. its origins and history were a great mystery. also, there was a great war throughout wildspace between the orcs and the elves, these two races utilized a form of life-shaped weaponry (for the elves it was magically created insectoid battlesuits and for the orcs it was massive living abominations known as Witchlight Marauders). we decided that Athas is in fact a very, VERY old crystal sphere (in the cosmology of the Spelljammer system). so old that even the Gods have forgetten about it. we imagined that the Blue Age of Athas actually followed a greater age when gods still held sway. as the planet aged the gods lost sight of their little world and moved on to other places, other crystal spheres leaving in their wake the strange energies of the gray and black as well as leaving the planet to the whims of the elemental lords who remained.
anyway, point is that we theorized that the halflings were the creators of the Spelljammer ship. that a faction of halfling nature masters, instead of stickin' around and altering the sun to fight the brown tide, decided to pack up their bags and leave on the back of one of the largest and most advanced life-shaped creations in the history of the Rhul-Thuan...the Spelljammer.
over time the original halflings seeded other worlds...Toril, Krynn, Greyhawk, etc. with their kind and even shaped themselves to live on other worlds as other standard races...at last the Spelljammer was over-taken by humans or another invading race and all was lost to time...
thus, our idea at the time was that Athas was actually the genesis of all the different races throughout the crystal spheres...that it was in fact some strange expirement done by the gods in a time before known record and history (3 trillion years is one HELLUVA' long time) and that over the ages information and knowledge of the crystal sphere containing Athas was lost...leaving it alone and isolated...
or at least that is what we weaved into our campaigns, simultaneously running my Dark Sun game with his Spelljammer game and uniting the two together in an epic, cosmic, world-spanning battle...
it was a VERY successful endeavor...and probably one of the most unforgettable gaming experiences i've had the pleasure of both DM'ing and playing.
Screw all that! This is FANTASY, damnit. Athas is a flat plane of earth of indeterminate size, and above the sky are not planets, but other-planar realms of their own which the Athasians interpret as the sky or sun or moons.
You can't build a spaceship and fly up into space because there is no "space". The stars are glittering crystals scattered through an endless void of winds and azure or shadowed olive light, huge black ball of fire and heat pushed along by the sweating, enslaved minions of fire. You can walk on the tops of clouds, and the two moons are metaphysical manifestations of some sort of mystical or heavenly realms, or the wandering eyes of some sort of nocturnal otherplanar creature!
When you think outside the cubical object -- which means outside modern comprehensions of what the universe is like, space, planets, stars, gravity and all that jazz -- you can create some truly fascinating fantasy worlds worthy of fairy tale, ancient myth, and the wonderful origins of fantasy fiction.
NOT that I am saying I think Athas should be a mythically-informed setting, but one can stick close to the modern truth, and still change enough -- ignoring or altering things like spatial distances and physical properties -- that it ends up unique and interesting.