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Dragonlance inherently lawful?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Dec 21, 2003 0:51:03 I've always hade something of a love/hate relationship with Dragonlance - it was the setting my DM first used when we started playing in the 6th grade and I read the Chronicles and Legends series like a fiend, but found most of the non Weis & Hickman novels most disappointing.

At the same time, hoever, I always felt kind of put off by something about the world of Krynn.

Finally, I have decided it is the "inherent lawfulness" of the world, so much of Krynn is dictated by an obsession with order.

* Wizards must be relegated to the order of the Wizards of High Sorcerer.

* Clerics must belong to the Holy Order of the Stars.

* The elves, dwarves, and minotaurs all have strictly defined subraces and organized governments, often with heavy vlass systems in affect (Hylar and Silvanesti in particular).

* The gods themselves are rather lawful, being obsessed with the balance of the world (though the evils may try to disrupt this) and having equal numbers of members and equal representation with their respective races (good elves, neutral humans, evil ogres).

* The Knights of Solamnia and Knights of Neraka both represent orders of rigidity and tradition.

So much of the world seems bound up in strict codes, which often precipitate negative results - Paladine himself warns against "the Kingpriest's type of good" and how it breeds rigidity, and yet his contributions to Ansalon are the elves, the Knights of Solamnia, and the metallic dragons all of which seem so often too dedicated to ideas of class, honor, and tradition to ever do any real good.

This rule of order even goes to the extent that in Dragons of Summer Flame Krynn's ultimate enemy is literally Chaos, and it is only in the godless aftermath of the war that things start to achieve a more free-thinking perspective (mystics, sorcerers, and the Legion of Steel).

I see myself as a truly "chaotic good" person through and through, and have decided that Krynn seems second only to Mechanus in regard to the dominion of law.

How do other people percieve Krynn?

How do you escape the rigid machine of its societies? Carefree kender? Renegade heroes such as the Heroes of the Lance?

Is that the overall idea behind the setting, then, that the characters should be those who in pursuit of "true good" or whatever morals they champion must defy or overthrow the establishment?

Even Sturm Brightblade had to flout the laws of the Knights of Solamnia by contradicting Crownguard . . .
#2
Charles_Phipps
Dec 21, 2003 2:49:06 Dragonlance I think differs from normal D&D in the fact that "lawful good" is in fact "true good" while neutral good and chaotic good are what are in fact wrong and erronous.

Paladine exemplefies this...

"The Right Way of Doing Things"

Quite literally the entire universe is structured, ordered, and clockwork with a well defined purpose which everything is cycling towards and movement away from this purpose is in fact only going to bring ruin to the people involved.

Paladine condemns the Kingpriest's rigidity but in most respects one could also point out that the "right way of doing things" has no problem with innovation, it's just anything that goes against the fundementally Lawful Good Universe is in fact simply wrong.

Lawful Good people can be worse, much worse than a Neutral or Chaotic Good person but the RIGHT WAY is lawful good.

There is a definite tendency to enoble tradition in the Land of Krynn as well.

Sturm Brightblade is the Knights "true son" as he follows their example by going against the grain but ironically being faithful to the true way.

I don't much care for the Mystics, the Legion of Steel, and Sorcerers though because they really don't seem to offer much but then again I might describe myself as truly lawful good. I missed the heritage and responsibility that came with the Ancient Orders
#3
Dragonhelm
Dec 21, 2003 7:47:09 You know, I'm not sure that I've thought of Dragonlance as inherently lawful before, but I definitely can see the point. It seems there are organizations for the major class types (minus rogues), and the organizations are a big staple of the setting.

Originally posted by Ithilorien
* Clerics must belong to the Holy Order of the Stars.

Maybe so, but remember that some clerics worship chaotic gods, which in effect would almost guarantee that they would be chaotic themselves.

* The gods themselves are rather lawful, being obsessed with the balance of the world (though the evils may try to disrupt this) and having equal numbers of members and equal representation with their respective races (good elves, neutral humans, evil ogres).

There is a certain truth to what you say.

I equate this to being akin to how we're obsessed with gravity. The Balance is a law of the universe, much like gravity is a law of the earth. You can be chaotic all you want, but when you jump up, you're coming back down.

This rule of order even goes to the extent that in Dragons of Summer Flame Krynn's ultimate enemy is literally Chaos, and it is only in the godless aftermath of the war that things start to achieve a more free-thinking perspective (mystics, sorcerers, and the Legion of Steel).

It is interesting to note that some settings equate Law/Order with good and Chaos with evil.

In some ways, I've thought that the High God and Chaos/Ionthas represent Order and Chaos respectfully. While the 21 gods represent good, neutrality, and evil, the High God and Chaos represent the other axis of alignment, which in turns provides a balance of its own.

This view isn't exactly canon, but it is a neat way to approach things.

You bring up some excellent points. I can think of examples of non-lawful characters in the setting, but few have large organizations to back them up.

As you said, it was the Age of Mortals where we first see a shift away from this lawful mindset. The Academy of Sorcery and Citadel of Light are more Neutral Good, IMO, and I would say that the Legion of Steel is more NG or CG. The Legion especially seems to place good over law, and the other two are far more free-thinking than the Orders of High Sorcery.

I think this is a theme that you will see touched upon in future Dragonlance products. I've heard numerous people say they want a new Academy of Sorcery so that sorcerers have their own organization to rival the Orders of High Sorcery.

The vibe I'm getting, though, is that this probably won't happen. I don't remember for certain, but I want to say that Margaret once mentioned how a sorcerer's strength lies in his independent nature. Perhaps I read that either in the DLCS or Age of Mortals.

Whatever the case, though, I think there is a push to have more non-lawful aspects in DL, and I think this can make the setting richer.

Very interesting thought on Dragonlance. I'm going to have to ponder over this some more.
#4
zombiegleemax
Dec 21, 2003 11:43:57 Many ancient religions (such as the Egyptians or Sumerians) believed that the world began in Chaos and that it was the gods who created the Order that was conductive to mortal survival.

Krynn sort of follows that to some degree. The gods as a whole do seem to encourage order over chaos, because they don't want the world to go Chaos's way.

That said, Order is not mandatory by any means. All the warriors in the world don't belong to a knighthood. Just select groups.

Many of the gods are not lawful in alignment. Branchala, Habbakuk, Mishakal, Gilean, Chislev, Reorx, Sirrion, Ziviliyn, Chemosh, Hiddukel, Morgion and Zeboim all have non-lawful alignments. So their "Holy Orders of the Stars" are nonethless not going to be as structured as Paladine's or Takhisis's (or Kiri-Jolith's or Sargonnas's for that matter). Really they're not going to be that different from priesthoods in other worlds.

The Wizards ARE more structured, but that is part of the setting flavor and differentiates Krynn from the magical free-for-alls of Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms.

That's the big point of all this lawfulness. If you took it away Krynn really wouldn't be much different than the other campaign worlds.
#5
darthsylver
Dec 21, 2003 11:46:27 Ithilorien - I hate to blow your theory of "Krynn" as being inherently Lawful but just take one look at Taladas and you will see that "Krynn" is not inherently Lawful but that "Ansalon" is inherently Lawful not "Krynn."

Thanks Bye. :D
#6
zombiegleemax
Dec 21, 2003 13:58:00 Well there's some greta role-playing opportunities in this whole Law versus Chaos universal view.

Obviously lawful systems pay a price for the stability they provide. Knights must pass their trials and Wizards must pass their Test.

It would be interesting to see the "chaotic" side have to face their own challenges due to their ethos. For example, Sorcerors and Mystics might discover unexpected complications to the use of too much "wild magic", exactly as the people of the Age of Dreams did. A campaign might center on harnassing this power without being consumed by it.

The big theme of Dragonlance is, after all, about people rising above themselves, overcoming their limitations. Spiritual advancement is a big part of all this. That's the real reason for a lot of the "lawfulness" we see with knighthoods and the Wizards and such. These entities provided a vehicle for such challenges.

Other D&D campaign settings, such as Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms, offer plenty of opportunity for role-playing a "live as you like" character. The tighter structure of Dragonlance is meant to facillitate a more thematic environment. In Greyhawk if you want to be a wizard then you can be a wizard and maybe join a guild or maybe be an idependent. Same in FR. If Dragonlance followed suit it would just start to blur and lose some of it's differentiation from other settings.

It would be neat to see the new character types like Sorcerors and Mytics face unique (to them) challenges.

Fighters, Rangers and Paladins have less of an issue. As noted, in truth they outnumber people in the formal Knighthoods (defined now as having a prestige class) by a fairly wide margin. The role-playing there was that you HAD to be Knight to swing a sword. It was a question of whether you wanted to be one. Sturm, for example, was really just a fighter for most of his life. He didn't formally become a Knight until just before his death. But his story was about living their ideals because he WANTED to, not because knighthood was obligatory.

A typical resident adventurer of Ansalon may never be a Knight, a Wizard or whatever. Becoming one is a choice. That's what makes it cool. The Prestige Class system of 3E fits this way better than anything in the previous two editions.
#7
Matthew_L._Martin
Dec 21, 2003 23:52:25 There's something to this . . .

But given that the core DL novels have portrayed nearly every major institution on Ansalon (with the exception of the WoHS) as tending to or inherently corrupt, I'd argue that the _novel_ POV is closer to Chaotic Neutral. :-)

Matthew L. Martin
#8
zombiegleemax
Dec 22, 2003 0:10:45 There is in fact plenty of chaos on the plane of Krynn, however the entire quota is almost enterly taken up by Kinder.

See, the little buggers do serve a purpose they keep the blanace of chaos/order so that all the major heros and villians can be wizards or knights wich are inherantly lawfull.
#9
cam_banks
Dec 22, 2003 0:26:19
Originally posted by Matthew L. Martin

But given that the core DL novels have portrayed nearly every major institution on Ansalon (with the exception of the WoHS) as tending to or inherently corrupt, I'd argue that the _novel_ POV is closer to Chaotic Neutral. :-)

No no. See, the institutions are all inherently lawful, but mortals on Krynn have free will, and thus institutions suffer from corruption and decadence, eroding over time until some bright shining young spark of Law comes along, reasserts things, and everybody goes back to being lawful again.

Cheers,
Cam
#10
ferratus
Dec 22, 2003 2:15:36 Well, DL authors are a product of their generation, so mistrust of institutions and greater respect for individual morality is a part of that.

Myself, I don't think it is a rule of thumb that otherwise moral people become corrupt when they come together in organized groups. Maybe it is time to do a few stories about how a group with strong ideals takes a person and inspires him to greatness.

Of course, maybe that's just because I'm a product of my generation as well. I hear we young people are more conservative these days.
#11
silvanthalas
Dec 22, 2003 7:20:39
Originally posted by ferratus
I hear we young people are more conservative these days.

I tend to think that people who say that are those who aren't seeing the world around them properly.
#12
zombiegleemax
Dec 22, 2003 8:16:16 I think it's more that Dragonlance changes our view of "law" and "chaos" from the standard D&D game.
DL tends to regard "law" as "good" and "chaos" as "evil." Which isn't to say that a chaotic-good character is in any way evil. But he's viewed with more distrust than a Solamnic Knight or cleric of Paladin, etc. Also, look at the description of chaotic-evil as listed in the DLCS. It is actually describing the way a neutral-evil character would act in any standard D&D game (making the neutral-evil alignment almost unheard of in DL games). It's almost as if you have only two alignments in the DL stories and this has, sort of, overlapped the game books.
For instance, every time you hear a character in one of the books talk about how Palin (or any other white robe...he's just the one everybody recognized...lol) can't lie (or can't do this or that, etc) because he's a white robe (ie: because he's dedicated to good) points to just this sort of thing. You can also have chaotic-good and neutral-good white robes. Both of whom would have no problem lying if the situation called for it...especially if it served the cause of good. Also, Palin (going back to him again...lol) almost lost his white robes for the black (not even red) in Dragons of Summer Flame when he was going to let (even though he was not aware of it) Steel Brightblade die for not being able to bring him back as commanded. A chaotic-good (and probably even a neutral-good) character would have said "to heck with him" and let him swing. It's understood (to such a character) that you're always going to try your best to get away from an enemy...given word or not. lol
So, anyway, Dragonlance tends to work on the assumption that "good" means "lawful-good" and that "evil" means "chaotic-evil." And, what's more, that would be the DL version of chaotic-evil...not the standard D&D version. So there is very much the theme of good vs evil, law vs chaos, order vs anarchy...and always has been.
It's up to us, as DMs and players, to remember that the entire world is not made up of these huge forces swinging back and forth trying to maintain the balance (all of the best books are about this balance in one way or another so you have "law" and "chaos" at the heart of each). You also have everyday characters (even everyday adventurers) who aren't caught up in this struggle. You just don't get to see them too often in the storybooks (except in most of the "side-books" which many people don't read).
Just remember, and remind your players, that Dragonlance is a world where great forces are always fighting a never-ending battle over "good" and "evil" but that there are many places for shades of grey in this same world. The gods can fight over balance all day long...but somebody has to fill up the gaps...and that's where we come in. Which is, indeed, what I have always loved about Dragonlance...you have every option you could ever want. LotR style battle vs good and evil, or just your standard party trying to do the best they can to make it in such a world of "law" and "chaos."
#13
darthsylver
Dec 22, 2003 14:12:42 I think we can all agree that Ferratus sees the worl in his own special way. ;) Gotcha. :D :D
#14
ferratus
Dec 22, 2003 16:07:54
Originally posted by darthsylver
I think we can all agree that Ferratus sees the worl in his own special way. ;) Gotcha. :D :D

Oh, they called me mad... but now everyone is playing kender wizards. Mwhahahahaha! ;)
#15
cam_banks
Dec 22, 2003 22:08:20
Originally posted by ferratus
Oh, they called me mad... but now everyone is playing kender wizards. Mwhahahahaha! ;)

Some are, yes. All praise be to Kipper Snifferdoo!

Cheers,
Cam

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Dec 21, 2003 0:51:03	I've always hade something of a love/hate relationship with Dragonlance - it was the setting my DM first used when we started playing in the 6th grade and I read the Chronicles and Legends series like a fiend, but found most of the non Weis & Hickman novels most disappointing. At the same time, hoever, I always felt kind of put off by something about the world of Krynn. Finally, I have decided it is the "inherent lawfulness" of the world, so much of Krynn is dictated by an obsession with order. * Wizards must be relegated to the order of the Wizards of High Sorcerer. * Clerics must belong to the Holy Order of the Stars. * The elves, dwarves, and minotaurs all have strictly defined subraces and organized governments, often with heavy vlass systems in affect (Hylar and Silvanesti in particular). * The gods themselves are rather lawful, being obsessed with the balance of the world (though the evils may try to disrupt this) and having equal numbers of members and equal representation with their respective races (good elves, neutral humans, evil ogres). * The Knights of Solamnia and Knights of Neraka both represent orders of rigidity and tradition. So much of the world seems bound up in strict codes, which often precipitate negative results - Paladine himself warns against "the Kingpriest's type of good" and how it breeds rigidity, and yet his contributions to Ansalon are the elves, the Knights of Solamnia, and the metallic dragons all of which seem so often too dedicated to ideas of class, honor, and tradition to ever do any real good. This rule of order even goes to the extent that in Dragons of Summer Flame Krynn's ultimate enemy is literally Chaos, and it is only in the godless aftermath of the war that things start to achieve a more free-thinking perspective (mystics, sorcerers, and the Legion of Steel). I see myself as a truly "chaotic good" person through and through, and have decided that Krynn seems second only to Mechanus in regard to the dominion of law. How do other people percieve Krynn? How do you escape the rigid machine of its societies? Carefree kender? Renegade heroes such as the Heroes of the Lance? Is that the overall idea behind the setting, then, that the characters should be those who in pursuit of "true good" or whatever morals they champion must defy or overthrow the establishment? Even Sturm Brightblade had to flout the laws of the Knights of Solamnia by contradicting Crownguard . . .
#2 Charles_Phipps Dec 21, 2003 2:49:06	Dragonlance I think differs from normal D&D in the fact that "lawful good" is in fact "true good" while neutral good and chaotic good are what are in fact wrong and erronous. Paladine exemplefies this... "The Right Way of Doing Things" Quite literally the entire universe is structured, ordered, and clockwork with a well defined purpose which everything is cycling towards and movement away from this purpose is in fact only going to bring ruin to the people involved. Paladine condemns the Kingpriest's rigidity but in most respects one could also point out that the "right way of doing things" has no problem with innovation, it's just anything that goes against the fundementally Lawful Good Universe is in fact simply wrong. Lawful Good people can be worse, much worse than a Neutral or Chaotic Good person but the RIGHT WAY is lawful good. There is a definite tendency to enoble tradition in the Land of Krynn as well. Sturm Brightblade is the Knights "true son" as he follows their example by going against the grain but ironically being faithful to the true way. I don't much care for the Mystics, the Legion of Steel, and Sorcerers though because they really don't seem to offer much but then again I might describe myself as truly lawful good. I missed the heritage and responsibility that came with the Ancient Orders
#3 Dragonhelm Dec 21, 2003 7:47:09	You know, I'm not sure that I've thought of Dragonlance as inherently lawful before, but I definitely can see the point. It seems there are organizations for the major class types (minus rogues), and the organizations are a big staple of the setting. Originally posted by Ithilorien * Clerics must belong to the Holy Order of the Stars. Maybe so, but remember that some clerics worship chaotic gods, which in effect would almost guarantee that they would be chaotic themselves. * The gods themselves are rather lawful, being obsessed with the balance of the world (though the evils may try to disrupt this) and having equal numbers of members and equal representation with their respective races (good elves, neutral humans, evil ogres). There is a certain truth to what you say. I equate this to being akin to how we're obsessed with gravity. The Balance is a law of the universe, much like gravity is a law of the earth. You can be chaotic all you want, but when you jump up, you're coming back down. This rule of order even goes to the extent that in Dragons of Summer Flame Krynn's ultimate enemy is literally Chaos, and it is only in the godless aftermath of the war that things start to achieve a more free-thinking perspective (mystics, sorcerers, and the Legion of Steel). It is interesting to note that some settings equate Law/Order with good and Chaos with evil. In some ways, I've thought that the High God and Chaos/Ionthas represent Order and Chaos respectfully. While the 21 gods represent good, neutrality, and evil, the High God and Chaos represent the other axis of alignment, which in turns provides a balance of its own. This view isn't exactly canon, but it is a neat way to approach things. You bring up some excellent points. I can think of examples of non-lawful characters in the setting, but few have large organizations to back them up. As you said, it was the Age of Mortals where we first see a shift away from this lawful mindset. The Academy of Sorcery and Citadel of Light are more Neutral Good, IMO, and I would say that the Legion of Steel is more NG or CG. The Legion especially seems to place good over law, and the other two are far more free-thinking than the Orders of High Sorcery. I think this is a theme that you will see touched upon in future Dragonlance products. I've heard numerous people say they want a new Academy of Sorcery so that sorcerers have their own organization to rival the Orders of High Sorcery. The vibe I'm getting, though, is that this probably won't happen. I don't remember for certain, but I want to say that Margaret once mentioned how a sorcerer's strength lies in his independent nature. Perhaps I read that either in the DLCS or Age of Mortals. Whatever the case, though, I think there is a push to have more non-lawful aspects in DL, and I think this can make the setting richer. Very interesting thought on Dragonlance. I'm going to have to ponder over this some more.
#4 zombiegleemax Dec 21, 2003 11:43:57	Many ancient religions (such as the Egyptians or Sumerians) believed that the world began in Chaos and that it was the gods who created the Order that was conductive to mortal survival. Krynn sort of follows that to some degree. The gods as a whole do seem to encourage order over chaos, because they don't want the world to go Chaos's way. That said, Order is not mandatory by any means. All the warriors in the world don't belong to a knighthood. Just select groups. Many of the gods are not lawful in alignment. Branchala, Habbakuk, Mishakal, Gilean, Chislev, Reorx, Sirrion, Ziviliyn, Chemosh, Hiddukel, Morgion and Zeboim all have non-lawful alignments. So their "Holy Orders of the Stars" are nonethless not going to be as structured as Paladine's or Takhisis's (or Kiri-Jolith's or Sargonnas's for that matter). Really they're not going to be that different from priesthoods in other worlds. The Wizards ARE more structured, but that is part of the setting flavor and differentiates Krynn from the magical free-for-alls of Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms. That's the big point of all this lawfulness. If you took it away Krynn really wouldn't be much different than the other campaign worlds.
#5 darthsylver Dec 21, 2003 11:46:27	Ithilorien - I hate to blow your theory of "Krynn" as being inherently Lawful but just take one look at Taladas and you will see that "Krynn" is not inherently Lawful but that "Ansalon" is inherently Lawful not "Krynn." Thanks Bye. :D
#6 zombiegleemax Dec 21, 2003 13:58:00	Well there's some greta role-playing opportunities in this whole Law versus Chaos universal view. Obviously lawful systems pay a price for the stability they provide. Knights must pass their trials and Wizards must pass their Test. It would be interesting to see the "chaotic" side have to face their own challenges due to their ethos. For example, Sorcerors and Mystics might discover unexpected complications to the use of too much "wild magic", exactly as the people of the Age of Dreams did. A campaign might center on harnassing this power without being consumed by it. The big theme of Dragonlance is, after all, about people rising above themselves, overcoming their limitations. Spiritual advancement is a big part of all this. That's the real reason for a lot of the "lawfulness" we see with knighthoods and the Wizards and such. These entities provided a vehicle for such challenges. Other D&D campaign settings, such as Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms, offer plenty of opportunity for role-playing a "live as you like" character. The tighter structure of Dragonlance is meant to facillitate a more thematic environment. In Greyhawk if you want to be a wizard then you can be a wizard and maybe join a guild or maybe be an idependent. Same in FR. If Dragonlance followed suit it would just start to blur and lose some of it's differentiation from other settings. It would be neat to see the new character types like Sorcerors and Mytics face unique (to them) challenges. Fighters, Rangers and Paladins have less of an issue. As noted, in truth they outnumber people in the formal Knighthoods (defined now as having a prestige class) by a fairly wide margin. The role-playing there was that you HAD to be Knight to swing a sword. It was a question of whether you wanted to be one. Sturm, for example, was really just a fighter for most of his life. He didn't formally become a Knight until just before his death. But his story was about living their ideals because he WANTED to, not because knighthood was obligatory. A typical resident adventurer of Ansalon may never be a Knight, a Wizard or whatever. Becoming one is a choice. That's what makes it cool. The Prestige Class system of 3E fits this way better than anything in the previous two editions.
#7 Matthew_L._Martin Dec 21, 2003 23:52:25	There's something to this . . . But given that the core DL novels have portrayed nearly every major institution on Ansalon (with the exception of the WoHS) as tending to or inherently corrupt, I'd argue that the _novel_ POV is closer to Chaotic Neutral. :-) Matthew L. Martin
#8 zombiegleemax Dec 22, 2003 0:10:45	There is in fact plenty of chaos on the plane of Krynn, however the entire quota is almost enterly taken up by Kinder. See, the little buggers do serve a purpose they keep the blanace of chaos/order so that all the major heros and villians can be wizards or knights wich are inherantly lawfull.
#9 cam_banks Dec 22, 2003 0:26:19	Originally posted by Matthew L. Martin But given that the core DL novels have portrayed nearly every major institution on Ansalon (with the exception of the WoHS) as tending to or inherently corrupt, I'd argue that the _novel_ POV is closer to Chaotic Neutral. :-) No no. See, the institutions are all inherently lawful, but mortals on Krynn have free will, and thus institutions suffer from corruption and decadence, eroding over time until some bright shining young spark of Law comes along, reasserts things, and everybody goes back to being lawful again. Cheers, Cam
#10 ferratus Dec 22, 2003 2:15:36	Well, DL authors are a product of their generation, so mistrust of institutions and greater respect for individual morality is a part of that. Myself, I don't think it is a rule of thumb that otherwise moral people become corrupt when they come together in organized groups. Maybe it is time to do a few stories about how a group with strong ideals takes a person and inspires him to greatness. Of course, maybe that's just because I'm a product of my generation as well. I hear we young people are more conservative these days.
#11 silvanthalas Dec 22, 2003 7:20:39	Originally posted by ferratus I hear we young people are more conservative these days. I tend to think that people who say that are those who aren't seeing the world around them properly.
#12 zombiegleemax Dec 22, 2003 8:16:16	I think it's more that Dragonlance changes our view of "law" and "chaos" from the standard D&D game. DL tends to regard "law" as "good" and "chaos" as "evil." Which isn't to say that a chaotic-good character is in any way evil. But he's viewed with more distrust than a Solamnic Knight or cleric of Paladin, etc. Also, look at the description of chaotic-evil as listed in the DLCS. It is actually describing the way a neutral-evil character would act in any standard D&D game (making the neutral-evil alignment almost unheard of in DL games). It's almost as if you have only two alignments in the DL stories and this has, sort of, overlapped the game books. For instance, every time you hear a character in one of the books talk about how Palin (or any other white robe...he's just the one everybody recognized...lol) can't lie (or can't do this or that, etc) because he's a white robe (ie: because he's dedicated to good) points to just this sort of thing. You can also have chaotic-good and neutral-good white robes. Both of whom would have no problem lying if the situation called for it...especially if it served the cause of good. Also, Palin (going back to him again...lol) almost lost his white robes for the black (not even red) in Dragons of Summer Flame when he was going to let (even though he was not aware of it) Steel Brightblade die for not being able to bring him back as commanded. A chaotic-good (and probably even a neutral-good) character would have said "to heck with him" and let him swing. It's understood (to such a character) that you're always going to try your best to get away from an enemy...given word or not. lol So, anyway, Dragonlance tends to work on the assumption that "good" means "lawful-good" and that "evil" means "chaotic-evil." And, what's more, that would be the DL version of chaotic-evil...not the standard D&D version. So there is very much the theme of good vs evil, law vs chaos, order vs anarchy...and always has been. It's up to us, as DMs and players, to remember that the entire world is not made up of these huge forces swinging back and forth trying to maintain the balance (all of the best books are about this balance in one way or another so you have "law" and "chaos" at the heart of each). You also have everyday characters (even everyday adventurers) who aren't caught up in this struggle. You just don't get to see them too often in the storybooks (except in most of the "side-books" which many people don't read). Just remember, and remind your players, that Dragonlance is a world where great forces are always fighting a never-ending battle over "good" and "evil" but that there are many places for shades of grey in this same world. The gods can fight over balance all day long...but somebody has to fill up the gaps...and that's where we come in. Which is, indeed, what I have always loved about Dragonlance...you have every option you could ever want. LotR style battle vs good and evil, or just your standard party trying to do the best they can to make it in such a world of "law" and "chaos."
#13 darthsylver Dec 22, 2003 14:12:42	I think we can all agree that Ferratus sees the worl in his own special way. ;) Gotcha. :D :D
#14 ferratus Dec 22, 2003 16:07:54	Originally posted by darthsylver I think we can all agree that Ferratus sees the worl in his own special way. ;) Gotcha. :D :D Oh, they called me mad... but now everyone is playing kender wizards. Mwhahahahaha! ;)
#15 cam_banks Dec 22, 2003 22:08:20	Originally posted by ferratus Oh, they called me mad... but now everyone is playing kender wizards. Mwhahahahaha! ;) Some are, yes. All praise be to Kipper Snifferdoo! Cheers, Cam