Sorcers and clerics are ok in my book.
Or you could be renagade, but then people like my PCs and other tower minions would be after you all the time. It probably isn't worth the hastle of having to check for black robes before useing the privy.
The WOHS has his God of Magic and the Cleric whichever diety they revere.
The 3 Gods of Magic do not offer Clerical powers.
I don't recall the specific page number in which it's mentioned that one cannot have two Patron Deity's but I'll check up on it later.
If you absolutely must have an official ruling however, what could be more official then Jaime Chambers word? (One of the head designers of the rulebook)
Jaime Chambers comments on MultiClassing
His is the fourth post in the thread, just under where hoe covers MultiClassing between focused/ambiant magic he mentions how Wizards/Clerics cannot multiclass due to the two patron deities conflict.
"Thus you could be a multi-classed sorcerer/mystic or even a low-level wizard/cleric, but never a sorcerer/wizard or cleric/mystic. (You cannot be a Wizard of High Sorcery/cleric because you cannot have two different chosen deities.)"
I am talking about a general wizard/cleric. Unless I misunderstand him, he appears to say that is specifically allowed as long as you are a low level wizard or a renagage.
Of course he also adds that the rule about having two different deities was only in the draft and did not make it into the final version.
Do not the KoS revere Paladine, Kiri-Jolith and Habbukuk equally. Do not divine spell casting knights of the sword and the rose pray to all three to gain their spells?
Originally posted by SageofKaolyn
Another problem I have with this one chosen god per character is that it seems to conflict with the Knights of Solamnia.
Do not the KoS revere Paladine, Kiri-Jolith and Habbukuk equally. Do not divine spell casting knights of the sword and the rose pray to all three to gain their spells?
KoS revere all 3 gods, or 2 gods after war of souls. BUT they don't choose 3 or 2 gods as their patron god, only 1 god.
As some others have said sorcerers and mystics are another matter. Since the power comes from inside I guess it would be possible to multiclass between those two but it would not be possible to have multiclasses that would create god conflicts. I would also say that you could not be a mystic and belong to the clergy of a god. And you could not be a sorcerer and continue practicing as one if you want to be a WoHS
Originally posted by Dragontooth
KoS revere all 3 gods, or 2 gods after war of souls. BUT they don't choose 3 or 2 gods as their patron god, only 1 god.
Which 1?
Originally posted by bluedragon2999
I just don't think its possible on Krynn.
I am not looking for opinions. I would like to know ON WHAT PAGE the DLCS says that multiclassed cleric/wizards are specifically not allowed in standard Dragonlance. As far as I have been able to find the book at NO TIME disallows cleric/wizards.
Originally posted by SageofKaolyn
Which 1?
Crown: Habbakuk
Sword: Kiri-Jolith
Rose: Paladine
Now that Paladine is gone, most of the KoS worship Kiri-Jolith. Habbakuk, AFAIK, isn't very closely connected to the KoS anymore.
Originally posted by SageofKaolyn
I am not looking for opinions. I would like to know ON WHAT PAGE the DLCS says that multiclassed cleric/wizards are specifically not allowed in standard Dragonlance. As far as I have been able to find the book at NO TIME disallows cleric/wizards.
Then that is what you should GO WITH. Instead of waiting around on a MESSAGE BOARD, typing certain words in CAPITAL LETTERS.
You've already found an answer that satisfies you. Go with that.
Now, if you wanted the moon gods to have clerics, then I wouldn't see a problem then either.
((sorry had several repeats))
Under the para. title Religion: States that a cleric can't have more then one patron deity.
Page 53 DLCS Wizard
Under the para. title Religion: The act of casting an arcane spell is an act of worship to Solinari, Nuitari, or Lunitari, depending on alignment.
Both Mystics, and Sorcerers do not require having a patron deity. So to answer your question you can have.
Mystic/Sorcerer
Mystic/Wizard
Cleric/Sorcerer
Originally posted by Dragontooth
Page 45 DLCS Cleric
Under the para. title Religion: States that a cleric can't have more then one patron deity.
Page 53 DLCS Wizard
Under the para. title Religion: The act of casting an arcane spell is an act of worship to Solinari, Nuitari, or Lunitari, depending on alignment.
Ok now we are cooking with oil!Next question is, what it a patron diety? It could be argued that a "cleric's" patron deity would be the god who grants "divine" spells to said cleric.
Further every two bit hack mage or archwizard renegade worships the gods of magic by casting spells? And is simply worshipping a god the same as that deity being one's patron deity? Again do not KoS have two (originally three) patron deities?
Cleric + WoHS wizard = Not OK.
The Test, and the soulforge which accompanies it, represents the point at which a wizard gives his alligiance to a patron deity. He can give that up later, with all the usual consequences, but he can't be a cleric until then.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Cleric + non-WoHS wizard = OK.
Cleric + WoHS wizard = Not OK.
The Test, and the soulforge which accompanies it, represents the point at which a wizard gives his alligiance to a patron deity. He can give that up later, with all the usual consequences, but he can't be a cleric until then.
Cheers,
Cam
uhh... Wizard Magic comes straight FROM the Gods of Magic. So unless a Wizard has a Patron God (one of the Moon Gods) he is little more than a Commoner with a strong Will Save...
uhh... Wizard Magic comes straight FROM the Gods of Magic. So unless a Wizard has a Patron God (one of the Moon Gods) he is little more than a Commoner with a strong Will Save...
Uh... no. Only the WoHS supposed get their magic from the gods of magic, hence the affect that the moons have on them.
Non-WoHS Wizards are normal wizards as explained in 3.5E PHB, but do not receive the effects from the moons. Also are not subject to having arcane magic removed by the gods of magic like the WoHS.
Originally posted by darthsylver
Orignally posted by josephkell
Uh... no. Only the WoHS supposed get their magic from the gods of magic, hence the affect that the moons have on them.
Exactly. Wizard magic is not individually served to each wizard by the gods of magic, as the magic of clerics is. However, the additional benefits, influences of the moons, and secret rituals of the Orders are dependent on the wizard's relationship with the gods of magic being that of patron deity to mortal devotee, thus the problem of multiclassing.
There are likewise no functioning druid/WoHS, paladin/WoHS, ranger/WoHS (or at least, a ranger with spells), etc. A mystic/WoHS is possible, however.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by SageofKaolyn
One deity per character would also bar clerics of good gods other than Kiri-Jolith or Habukuk from being Sword or Rose knights.
Correct.
Cheers,
Cam
How is it that a Knight of the Crown becomes a Knight of the Sword or Rose before the return of the gods in the WoTL, if there was no way to be a cleric or cast divine spells before the return of the gods in the WoTL?
Cam?
Originally posted by darthsylver
That was a question that I heard awhile ago.
How is it that a Knight of the Crown becomes a Knight of the Sword or Rose before the return of the gods in the WoTL, if there was no way to be a cleric before the return of the gods in the WoTL?
Cam?
Obviously, there's a special case to be made for certain other eras. I expect we'll see this addressed more fully in the War of the Lance sourcebook, due out this summer. In the meantime, I would say it's because they don't have a clerical spellcasting requirement prior to the return of the gods in the 4th age. Or they were just fighters, like Derek Crownguard and Aaron Tallbow from the modules.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by SageofKaolyn
One deity per character would also bar clerics of good gods other than Kiri-Jolith or Habukuk from being Sword or Rose knights.
Actually, only clerics* of Kiri-Jolith can become Sword/Rose knights. It says so on both of their entries, in the spells section. "Sword/Rose Knights receive their divine powers from Kiri-Jolith."
*Mystics can become knights too, but that should be rare after the WoS.
Originally posted by The White Sorcerer
Actually, only clerics* of Kiri-Jolith can become Sword/Rose knights. It says so on both of their entries, in the spells section. "Sword/Rose Knights receive their divine powers from Kiri-Jolith."
*Mystics can become knights too, but that should be rare after the WoS.
Aye, with Paladine gone only Kiri-Jolith now grants spells to Rose Knights. But the entry is not specific about previous classes at all. Specificly it states that first a character must be a squire. To be a squire a character must have achieved atleast one level in any class. Then squire, then crown, then sword then rose. The section on spells dicusses previous levels of divine spell caster a character may have. A strict intrepretation of one god/one character and the ban on cleric/mystics would leave clerics of Krir-Jolith as the only possible previous divine spell caster levels a character could have. Since the list is so short why not simply identify cleric of Kiri-Jolith in the text instead of any general divine spell caster.
A mystic would be able to get away with being a part of the Orders of Sword or Rose by having Kiri-Jolith as a patron deity as much as Habbakuk from when they were lowly Crown Knights. Worship him and honour him by all means... just have more faith in yourself. And as you level up, your faith in Kiri-Jolith doesn't increase, your faith in yourself does. And he can hardly stop you receiving mystical spells, can he? And it would hardly be fair.
So he writes back to the conclave telling them that he realy doesnt feel up to taking the test, as his main dedication is to his gods principles. He adventures some more and happens to practice some more magic. He gets better at it. Oops. What now? The conclave sends him a letter saying "Hey look buddy, we mean it take the test or we're gonna gack ya" So now he has no choice, he travels to a tower and takes his test. Now this character will under no circemstances abandon his god, he states this going into the test and he and the conclave know it to be true.
Now, it has been stated numerous times that the only failure of the test is death. If you live, yer in. What now? Do the wizards keep sending more and more challenges at the inductee untill he dies or converts? For a council thats only 1/3 evil that seems rather harsh. Hell i cant even seeing Solinari approving of that. So the only real option is giving him the chance to pass without converting. Otherwise administering the test is an evil act that I just cant see a the council approving.
Now what if that previously mentioned cleric was a bard instead and decided to learn wizardry? What would happen? Would he just study the books and use the tools that the gods gave man and get nowhere? No that doesnt make logical sense. Some thing has to happen. Unfortunatly the DLCS was maddeningly vague on how the interactions of magic work with each other.
Maybe we can get a clarification from someone who worked on the book? Margret, Jamie, Chris?
As for the bard - he'd find that he would not be able to use both forms of magic. There'd be a period of inability to properly master either, and then he'd have to make up his mind. In this case, it's because wild magic and High Sorcery are imiscible and do not blend; the Chaos-taint in wild magic interferes with the purity of High Sorcery. You'd probably just end up with a very well-informed bard or a musical wizard.
Cheers,
Cam
The reason for the above is that the conclave typically has much better thing to do, and such renegades are quite rare. Since they aren't a threat to magic or the WoHS, they are left alone. If renegades like this started to become more and more common, then the WoHS would be forced to become involved.
Darthsylver:
"Non-WoHS Wizards are normal wizards as explained in 3.5E PHB, but do not receive the effects from the moons. Also are not subject to having arcane magic removed by the gods of magic like the WoHS."
This isn't true, since otherwise 3.5E PHB wizards could have existed in the age of mortals and everyone would have gone 'renegade.' The Gods of Magic provide the essential structure to the world that allows wizardly magic to exist. Wizards just make use of it. When you become a member of the WoHS you are swearing fealty to the preservation and growth of magic. THAT is why you can't be a cleric to another god and a member of the WoHS. There could well become a point when you'd have to choose between aiding the cause of magic and the goals of your deity. Perhaps your deity wants you to destroy some magical research, or stop a wizard from teaching some type of magic. As a member of the WoHS you would be required to defend such a person. WoHS made a decision to put magic first, above family, friends, and other gods. For instance, if a WoHS was forced to choose between stopping the deaths of every non-wizard he knows (and perhaps other people too), or between stopping the deaths of an equal number of prominent wizards...he'd choose the latter. This is assuming it is a large number of wizards, for that would cause a great deal of harm to the cause of magic (loss of knowledge and experience, loss of ability to defend magic in the future, etc). A hard choice, but one a WoHS already has made before: on his test. (or at least made a choice of equivilent personal difficulty).
Edit: I just want to emphasize that in the above, there is a certain critical mass of wizards to die required before it becomes necessary to defend them. So, for example, a *true* black robe would defend with his life the Order of the White Robes, and vice versa. If it is just a few individuals, and outside the towers.....then it is a different matter. (and the Black Robe might allow some high ranking Whites to die....by 'accident' so long as the Order was preserved).
-Drachasor
Originally posted by Cam Banks
The Cleric of Branchala who took the Test wouldn't pass unless he was able to commit himself fully to Solinari. In that case, Branchala says "nice knowing you, Mr Indecision" and cuts off the divine power.
Just a little tweak to this I think you'd agree with Cam. The mage doesn't devote hismelf to Solinari, he devotes himself to the magic. Solinari being part and parcel of the magic he is studying just goes along with that.
I think it is important to stress that Wizards of High Sorcery put magic above everything else, whether it be self, family, nation, or diety. If you cannot make that choice, you are simply not allowed to ascend to the higher mysteries of magic. You simply live out your life with basic magical skills, and 75-90% of wizards do just that.
I would also say that you do not have to revere or worship one of the gods of magic, but since they only desire to see the magic within you grow (for differing reasons) it isn't a bad idea. Think of it as another source of magical revelation besides spellbooks, scrolls, and magical items.
It is also interesting to note that you can have minor wizard skills (the 1st and 2nd spell levels) and still be a cleric of a diety. That seems to tell me that it is the Order of High Sorcery that demands total dedication to the magic, while a god demands total dedication to himself. Dieties have also accepted wizards from the Orders of High Sorcery who convert to their service, with the Thorn Knights and Marwort of Istar being two examples. Those people made their choice to serve the gods rather than magic itself and thus became renegades.
Originally posted by ferratus
Just a little tweak to this I think you'd agree with Cam. The mage doesn't devote hismelf to Solinari, he devotes himself to the magic. Solinari being part and parcel of the magic he is studying just goes along with that.
I think at this point it becomes semantics, as as far as Solinari is concerned he and the magic (of good wizards) are one in that covenant. You could not, in other words, be somebody actively aligned against the gods of magic or even apathetic towards them and still be a Wizard of High Sorcery. The Moon Gods don't function in the same role as other deities do - they've set themselves aside from the greater pantheon to encourage, foster, and facilitate High Sorcery.
I think it is important to stress that Wizards of High Sorcery put magic above everything else, whether it be self, family, nation, or diety. If you cannot make that choice, you are simply not allowed to ascend to the higher mysteries of magic. You simply live out your life with basic magical skills, and 75-90% of wizards do just that.
Druids are similar, in that they put nature and its elements ahead of all other things, even though they gain their spellcasting powers from Chislev et al. In that instance, the nature gods are as one with the nature which the druids revere, not merely above it. Chislev is not the shepherdess of the trees, she *is* the trees, for all intents and purposes. Thus, the Wizard of High Sorcery reveres, honors and is commited entirely to the magic, and in the Moon God that is at one with the magic.
I would also say that you do not have to revere or worship one of the gods of magic, but since they only desire to see the magic within you grow (for differing reasons) it isn't a bad idea. Think of it as another source of magical revelation besides spellbooks, scrolls, and magical items.
The wizard isn't a cleric, and thus doesn't supplicate or pray or perform other traditional acts of reverence, no. But, as above, their covenant is with their god of magic, in whatever form or aspect they have recognized the deity, usually in the sum of its influence on High Sorcery.
It is also interesting to note that you can have minor wizard skills (the 1st and 2nd spell levels) and still be a cleric of a diety. That seems to tell me that it is the Order of High Sorcery that demands total dedication to the magic, while a god demands total dedication to himself. Dieties have also accepted wizards from the Orders of High Sorcery who convert to their service, with the Thorn Knights and Marwort of Istar being two examples. Those people made their choice to serve the gods rather than magic itself and thus became renegades.
It is only the point at which you have entered the greater levels of power, the deeper mysteries, where one's responsibility is greatest, that one needs to align with the gods of magic or be considered a renegade. It's important to note that you can be a 15th level wizard and not a Wizard of High Sorcery and you're still casting all of the same spells... but you're in the significantly tiny minority of wizards who can.
Cheers,
Cam
"Non-WoHS Wizards are normal wizards as explained in 3.5E PHB, but do not receive the effects from the moons. Also are not subject to having arcane magic removed by the gods of magic like the WoHS."
Originally posted by Drachasor
This isn't true, since otherwise 3.5E PHB wizards could have existed in the age of mortals and everyone would have gone 'renegade.' The Gods of Magic provide the essential structure to the world that allows wizardly magic to exist. Wizards just make use of it. When you become a member of the WoHS you are swearing fealty to the preservation and growth of magic. THAT is why you can't be a cleric to another god and a member of the WoHS. There could well become a point when you'd have to choose between aiding the cause of magic and the goals of your deity. Perhaps your deity wants you to destroy some magical research, or stop a wizard from teaching some type of magic. As a member of the WoHS you would be required to defend such a person. WoHS made a decision to put magic first, above family, friends, and other gods. For instance, if a WoHS was forced to choose between stopping the deaths of every non-wizard he knows (and perhaps other people too), or between stopping the deaths of an equal number of prominent wizards...he'd choose the latter. This is assuming it is a large number of wizards, for that would cause a great deal of harm to the cause of magic (loss of knowledge and experience, loss of ability to defend magic in the future, etc). A hard choice, but one a WoHS already has made before: on his test. (or at least made a choice of equivilent personal difficulty).
Drachasor, perhaps you misunderstood what I am saying.
When a wizard becomes a WoHS he is subject to having her magic removed by the gods of magic should they endanger magic, or even simply anger their chosen god.
Wizards who are not WoHS do not face this possible punishment from the gods. If they did the danger of a renegade would not exist as the gods of magic could simply stop the renegade from using magic.
The reason that most wizards decided to join the WoHS was probably the fact that they did not want to become renegades and be hunted.
During the age of mortals it has been explained that all arcane magic that is not primal was removed from krynn with the leaving of the gods. This is the official "ruling."
If what you are saying is this:
Wizards as explained in the PHB do not receive their power from the gods of magic, then their power would not have been removed when the gods left, and therefore they could have existed during the age of mortals. I would agree with you.
But it is the official ruling that states that the only type of magic that existed during the age of mortals is primal magic, in short only sorcery & mysticism.
Originally posted by darthsylver
If what you are saying is this:
Wizards as explained in the PHB do not receive their power from the gods of magic, then their power would not have been removed when the gods left, and therefore they could have existed during the age of mortals. I would agree with you.
All wizard magic comes from the gods of magic. It's sent out without specific direction to anybody, so anybody can use it if they know how.
No gods of magic, no wizard magic.
Wizards of High Sorcery have additional power and benefits from being aligned with one of the three gods of magic and their moons, and it is this that can be removed by the gods of magic.
A renegade, therefore, depends upon the gods of magic for his wizard spells to work, but they can't stop him from using it unless they make overt efforts to do so (like showing up in front of him and saying "quit it" or sending something to get rid of him). They would rather leave it to the Orders to police renegades.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by SageofKaolyn
Is there any way for a wizard to attune oneself to the moons without joining the WoHS?
I imagine this is exactly what the wizards of Taladas do.
It's just that on Ansalon, that's not how it's done. The equivalent of the Test, and all of the responsibilities that go with it, would have to be in place.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
I imagine this is exactly what the wizards of Taladas do.
It's just that on Ansalon, that's not how it's done. The equivalent of the Test, and all of the responsibilities that go with it, would have to be in place.
Cheers,
Cam
What about the dwarves, sea elves, irda and other races outside of the jurisdication of the WoHS? Would their wizards not also be able to align themselves with the moons without joining the WoHS?
Originally posted by Primus, the One and Prime
First off, those races AREN'T outside the juridiction fo the WoHS. Any dwarven wizard found would be forced to take the Test. the WoHS don't even know where the hell the Irda are, and the sea elves are too far way to matter.
I thought that sea elves had to take the test. In the book where Tanis and Flint meet Tas (can't remember the title) the sea elf princess tells about her brother taking the test, I'm sure of it.
It may be possible for such a thing to occur on Ansalon, but any wizard who gets to this level would want to join the WoHS. Either the Conclave would seek out the talented mage, or he would seek them out.
What I find interesting is that there seems to be this sentiment that there are a number of wizards functioning outside of the Orders of High Sorcery on Ansalon, as if renegades were somewhat common.
Being a Wizard of High Sorcery is the norm for wizards on Ansalon. In fact, the WoHS prestige class is the one PrC that is almost required. There are occasionally renegades, but they are quite rare. I would daresay you wouldn't have more than a couple per century.
Most who become wizards spend a lifetime in study, and are already geared towards becoming a WoHS.
Very few organizations have popped up that had a number of renegades in their number, such as Galan Dracos' Brown Robes. The Knights of the Thorn are the most successful of all the renegade wizards. Even at that, their numbers are made up solely of sorcerers now. I imagine renegade wizards may join their rank from time to time, but again, renegades are rare.
Originally posted by Primus, the One and Prime
First off, those races AREN'T outside the juridiction fo the WoHS. Any dwarven wizard found would be forced to take the Test. the WoHS don't even know where the hell the Irda are, and the sea elves are too far way to matter.
Check the DLCS. The WoHS only regulates humans and elves. Dwarves, Sea Elves and Minotaurs and specificaly exempt.
Mage Hunter Prestige Class." I can't seem to find it on the website anymore but I do have it in a word document.
Basically they are priests of one of the moons that hunt renegades. It is a very cool prestige class and they have divine spells granted by the moon gods.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
A renegade, therefore, depends upon the gods of magic for his wizard spells to work, but they can't stop him from using it unless they make overt efforts to do so (like showing up in front of him and saying "quit it" or sending something to get rid of him). They would rather leave it to the Orders to police renegades.
We're not going to start this up again are we?
It works much better if the Wizards of High Sorcery simply incarnate themselves into the magic. Then they simply give the keys to access the magic through the secrets of High Sorcery which are the spells in the wizard's spellbook.
Once a wizard has the keys, the gods cannot close and lock the door to their power. They instead have to rely on direct means to enforce their edicts such as the wizards and renegade hunters of the Order of High Sorcery. Otherwise, they just seem like they are taking risks and being more irresponsible than the wizards they are supposedly shepherding.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
I think at this point it becomes semantics, as as far as Solinari is concerned he and the magic (of good wizards) are one in that covenant. You could not, in other words, be somebody actively aligned against the gods of magic or even apathetic towards them and still be a Wizard of High Sorcery. The Moon Gods don't function in the same role as other deities do - they've set themselves aside from the greater pantheon to encourage, foster, and facilitate High Sorcery.
It is a matter of confusion as well. You say they aren't clerics, but you are using very clerical and religious language to describe them. It is confusing me as to what you mean, or what you want this covenant to accomplish.
So the question is, what is this covenant supposed to accomplish? If it is to serve Solinari, Lunitari or Nuitari, what does such service require? Do these moon gods have ambitions outside of seeing magic grow and flourish?
A distinct possibility that Solinari doesn't, given what magic does to one who uses it on Krynn. Magic unrestrained by the orders drives one to insanity and self-destruction. Certainly Solinari is interested in keeping mages sane, healthy and use their magic to aid the other gods in fighting for good. He may have no other ambitions.
However, the question really is whether or not Solinari actively attempts to give orders as to how evil should be fought as is the case with clerics and their dieties. What about Nuitari? Does he expect the evil wizards to fullfill his goals when they are called upon? In that case they become in essense proxies and agents for the lunar dieties and makes them full-fledged arcane magic casting clerics. If that is not the case, why is the personal relationship with a god of magic required as long as the magus is dedicated to the magic and follows the laws of the conclave?
Druids are similar, in that they put nature and its elements ahead of all other things, even though they gain their spellcasting powers from Chislev et al. In that instance, the nature gods are as one with the nature which the druids revere, not merely above it. Chislev is not the shepherdess of the trees, she *is* the trees, for all intents and purposes. Thus, the Wizard of High Sorcery reveres, honors and is commited entirely to the magic, and in the Moon God that is at one with the magic.
I can see where you are going here, but keep in mind that druids are also the proxies and agents for Chislev as well. Ultimately their own desires and goals are subsumed by Chislev's goals and desires. So despite not having the ritual trappings of a cleric, they will ultimately have the personality of one. This be particularly blurred if you and I use the mystery cult elements that we both like.
If that is the case, perhaps we should pump up the "wizardly" flavour of the sorcerer class to compensate. The experimentation, the sense of magic as an unknown force to be discovered and controlled etc.
Originally posted by ferratus
If that is the case, perhaps we should pump up the "wizardly" flavour of the sorcerer class to compensate. The experimentation, the sense of magic as an unknown force to be discovered and controlled etc.
I prefer that sorcerers be a much more varied assortment of folks, just as mystics are much more varied than clerics. Both are entirely free of established ritual and practice, and this was evident in Palin's Academy when students started to do things the instructors didn't anticipate, and the learning model became much more of a shared community than a master-student arrangement.
Sorcerers can approach their magic as academics, as you suggest (especially if they came out of a wizard background), or as artists, explorers, willworkers, or any other kind of paradigm that relies on a number of key ground rules:
1. Wild or primal magic is external to the sorcerer, not something inherent to the sorcerer
2. Sorcerers must still use gestures, commands, and other props as foci or catalysts to cast spells
3. Wild magic is Chaos-tainted, and thus imiscible with High Sorcery
Other than that, I would welcome a player to come up with how their sorcerer views the command of wild magic, whether it's shaping elemental forces, directing their will upon the ambient magic of the world, summoning threads of power, etc etc. It's all the same thing, but perspective seems to be the trick.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by ferratus
We're not going to start this up again are we?
No, "we" aren't going to be starting anything up again. I was responding to Darthsylver's post in an effort to provide at least a basic and summarized account of what can be a very long and drawn out conversation, one which I don't have any real desire to get into again. The simple truth of it is that the gods of magic provide the power for renegades as they provide the power for all wizards, but are capable of witholding their specific benefits from wizards who have aligned with them (WoHS) in terms of lunar influences, secrets, etc etc.
Cheers,
Cam
You are saying that the gods of magic can shut off the "extras" that a WoHS gets but not the basic magic.
In short the WoHS would lose moon magic, enhanced specialization, tower resources, etc... but would still be able to cast arcane spells?
Originally posted by darthsylver
okay cam let me understand this.
You are saying that the gods of magic can shut off the "extras" that a WoHS gets but not the basic magic.
In short the WoHS would lose moon magic, enhanced specialization, tower resources, etc... but would still be able to cast arcane spells?
Yes, exactly. If he did this, then you can bet the wizard affected would well be branded a renegade too. Remember, there is no difference in the way renegades and WoHS cast spells...one group has just chosen to be true to magic above all else.
-Drachasor
Edit: Grammer/Spelling
Originally posted by darthsylver
okay cam let me understand this.
You are saying that the gods of magic can shut off the "extras" that a WoHS gets but not the basic magic.
In short the WoHS would lose moon magic, enhanced specialization, tower resources, etc... but would still be able to cast arcane spells?
Yes.
Again, unless they had some specific reason to confront the wizard personally, which almost never happens. Many people aren't pleased with the notion of the gods of magic turning off a wizard's magic like a lightswitch, but I think they'll all agree that the "extras" are abandoned when the wizard quits the Orders.
Cheers,
Cam
I was just making sure that I understood the official ruling here.
Thanks.
Originally posted by darthsylver
Yes I understood that from a gaming standpoint nobody that the gods of magic (the DM) could just arbitrarily shut off a WoHS entire magic. It is just that that very thing happened to a black robe in the soulforge.
I edited my questions about the lunar dieties' covenant with mortals. A little sleepy when I wrote it.
I think the reference of the gods of magic shutting off magic in Soulforge and Dragons of a Vanished Moon was done without forseeing all the possible consequences, such as no longer needing renegade hunters unless the lunar dieties are lazy, crazy or irresponsible. After all, why leave a renegade wizard with his destructive powers if you can just shut him down with a thought?
That is not to say stripping wizards of magic can't have a place. It would be a reason for the white robes to drag renegade wizards back to trial, rather than simply killing them. I would suggest that it requires the direct presence of the deity in a location sacred to the dieties for such an event to occur however.
As for the varied nature of the sorcerer, that would be a good opening chapter for a game book on sorcerers, covering the dozens of archetypes that can exist within the class.
Originally posted by darthsylver
I would have just said that the gods had the power to shut down WoHS. If the WoHS severes his connection with the gods (as renegades are or do) then the god no longer has any power over the renegade.
Seems a bit odd to me. I'd say they can probably shut off magic to anyone on the planet...but like many gods on Krynn they don't interfere in the world directly that much....and certainly not so openly. It just doesn't serve the cause of magic to constantly hold a sword over the head of every magic user....it is intimidating and scares people off to know that at any moment their magic might disappear. Quite frankly, these are the *Gods* of magic, they likely know when any wizardly spell is being cast anywhere on the planet (or in Krynnspace, even)....and if they can shut it off for a member of the WoHS, they can shut it off for *anyone*. Of course, the idea of them being able to shut off magic, or even having created it from the get-go, *does* make for problems. Afterall, why did they let Raistlin take on Takhisis? It makes no sense...better to stop all magic for 5 seconds and let Tak beat him. Quite frankly the books present a picture of being a member of WoHS as having a rather large grey area...which Raistlin was in (they were too afraid of him to kick him out). I think pre-DoSF, the gods of magic were said to have taught it and encouraged its use....but not to have created it...I don't have my source books from that era with me though (I am at work), so I can't be sure. This makes a lot more sense, but does then lead to a problem regarding DoSF and WoS....which is partly why I don't like how things are handled there.
All in all, it doesn't make a lot of sense though for the Gods of Magic to be able to shut one person off from magic, but not another. They should be able to tell when anyone uses magic (if they created it), and deny access to them in fairly short order....it shouldn't make a difference wether or not the person in question is a renegade....magic doesn't care and neither should they. Wizardry magic is not lot priestly magic in this respect and one other....that the Gods of Magic are devoted to *magic* and their followers are primarily devoted to *magic* and not the gods....naturally since the gods are also devoted to magic, this is a distinction that is easy to miss. Magic is supposedly a wonderous thing both groups explore and enjoy....which is why I don't like the idea of them creating it...it's more than a bit silly. Even so, there are psychological reasons why they'd never take away magic from someone, renegade or no, except in the most extreme of circumstances.
-Drachasor
Originally posted by Exodore
It's been a while since I've read WoS so my memory is hazy. Didn't the gods make a deal with Dalamar at the end of the series? Something along the lines of "We'll give you the magic back but you are banned from the Tower"???
I always took that to mean, we will take those nasty sorcerer levels you don't like anymore and instanly transfer them into WoHS levels right here on the spot.
Originally posted by darthsylver
Yes I understood that from a gaming standpoint nobody that the gods of magic (the DM) could just arbitrarily shut off a WoHS entire magic. It is just that that very thing happened to a black robe in the soulforge.
Thats not quite entirely accurate. The incident in Soulforge has been brought up numerous times in the past, but there is one key problem with that argument. In the book we do not see the gods taking away the magic. We are told by an character that witnessed the event that the gods took the magic away. Without primary source information for all we know the black robe just fudged his casting. He failed his concentration check for casting while running from an angry mob. An outside observer could easily interpret this event as "the gods taking his magic" when infact he just improperly cast the spell.
Yes Quoting Obi-wan.
Yes, with out actually being there for all we know the Wizard screwed up and the gods were not responsible.
Originally posted by SageofKaolyn
What about Solamnic Auxliary Mages, they are white robes but are also squires of the knighthood. It would seem they are able to have Solinari and Habbakuk as their patron gods?
Solamnic Auxiliary Mages have respect for the Triumvirate (Habbakuk, Kiri-Jolith, and Paladine), but their true patron is Solinari.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Solamnic Auxiliary Mages have respect for the Triumvirate (Habbakuk, Kiri-Jolith, and Paladine), but their true patron is Solinari.
The age of mortals p. 45, "This may cause some difficulty for the good-aligned wizard, who must swear to put the interests of the knighthood ahead of those of the Orders of High Sorcery."
Originally posted by SageofKaolyn
The age of mortals p. 45, "This may cause some difficulty for the good-aligned wizard, who must swear to put the interests of the knighthood ahead of those of the Orders of High Sorcery."
Umm....."some difficulty"....?
Wouldn't this technically make them renegades? Hence Auxillary Mages would have to be sorcerors or renegades.
-Drachasor
Originally posted by Drachasor
Umm....."some difficulty"....?
Wouldn't this technically make them renegades? Hence Auxillary Mages would have to be sorcerors or renegades.
-Drachasor
The text also states that only those who cast arcane magic provided by the gods can join. So that rules out sorcerers
Basically, a SAM would start his career working towards being a WoHS. Perhaps he's also training to be in the Solamnic Auxiliary at the same time, but he must first become a WoHS. After he takes the Test of High Sorcery, he must then take the Knight's Trials, as would a Crown Knight.
The Conclave wants to make sure the wizard can use his magic responsibly and are interested in seeing the wizard develop his magic.
A wizard can do just this while in the service of another organization, such as with the Solamnic Auxiliary. Being a member of the Solamnic Auxiliary still allows for him to develop his magic.
Really, there is no difference between a SAM and Black Robes who served in the Dragonarmies of Takhisis. The key is to continue one's study of magic.
Originally posted by SageofKaolyn
The text also states that only those who cast arcane magic provided by the gods can join. So that rules out sorcerers
Correct. The requirements should be amended to incorporate spell preparation.
Think about it. The WoHS attacked the Thorn knight stronghold ad were soundly beaten back.
The Thorn Knights are part of the Knights of Neraka. So the WoHS decided to involve the KoS in their struggle against the renegade Thorns. The WoHS saw the thorn knights as an immense threat to the continued existence of magic from the gods and so went to extremes (with the gods approval) in order to fight it. Of course the KoS would only accept White robes.
You might say that the other orders went about fighting the thorns in their own ways.
Red robes perhaps joining the legion of steel and working covertly to disrupt and reverse the effects of the Thorn Knights.
The Black Robes mayhap infilitrated the thorn knight ranks.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
That quote from Age of Mortals is a smidge misleading, hence the confusion.
Basically, a SAM would start his career working towards being a WoHS. Perhaps he's also training to be in the Solamnic Auxiliary at the same time, but he must first become a WoHS. After he takes the Test of High Sorcery, he must then take the Knight's Trials, as would a Crown Knight.
The Conclave wants to make sure the wizard can use his magic responsibly and are interested in seeing the wizard develop his magic.
A wizard can do just this while in the service of another organization, such as with the Solamnic Auxiliary. Being a member of the Solamnic Auxiliary still allows for him to develop his magic.
Really, there is no difference between a SAM and Black Robes who served in the Dragonarmies of Takhisis. The key is to continue one's study of magic.
Except this *doesn't* work. A WoHS has dedicated his life to magic...and when push comes to shove is supposed to choose magic over anything else. The Knighthood isn't going to always agree with this...and hence you have a problem where the White Wizard must be lying to someone (and yet is honorable). It would be one thing if Auxiliaries merely agreed to help the Knighthood in any way so long as it didn't conflict with the edicts of being a WoHS...but an oath to serve and follow the knights is much more problematic.
As for the Black Robes and the Dragonarmies...I don't think they ever had them swear allegience to the Dragonarmies above the WoHS...and even if they did...well, lying isn't that big a deal to most Black Robes (they don't *have* to be honorable like the Auxilliaries do).
So now we have the following problem potential problem with Auxilliaries: the Knighthood could decide that all non-white wizards were not allowed to teach magic within the KoS's borders. So that's perhaps 2/3s of the current magical teachers are no longer valid in the KoS's eyes. Naturally the Auxilleries are going to be used to help apprehend these teachers...however, such a policy is damaging to magic (it's growth and prosperity), and hence a WoHS would be against it (even if they had some personal reservations about teachers of a particular order). If they follow the Knights though, then they become technically (at least!) renegades, since they have violated the most fundemental principle of the WoHS. I don't see anyway to avoid this without weakening the oaths to the Knighthood that are made by these wizards.
-Drachasor
Originally posted by Drachasor
Except this *doesn't* work. A WoHS has dedicated his life to magic...and when push comes to shove is supposed to choose magic over anything else. The Knighthood isn't going to always agree with this...and hence you have a problem where the White Wizard must be lying to someone (and yet is honorable).
I think it should be generally understood that a member of the Solamnic auxiliary forces is not a knight, but an individual working in alliance with the Solamnic Knighthood. Mages in the auxiliary undergo the equivalent of the Knight's Trial (note the singular - there aren't a series of trials) in which they pledge support, honesty, courage, and valor in conduct. Most dedicated White Robe mages could pass this Trial with dignity and respect, and there would be no occasion where the Knighthood (who understand something about commitment, faith, and honor) would have the mage act in such a way that his own vows and oaths would be challenged.
The auxiliary also includes non-Knights from other professions and trades, not just wizards. One imagines engineers, physicians, spies, and mariners all undergoing the Trial to determine their honor and suitability, too. It's a secular role, if that makes sense - auxiliaries do not take on a patron deity when they "sign up", which also makes healers of Mishakal and adepts of Majere possible auxiliary characters.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by ferratus
One should not forget as well that the Auxillary troops are the bulk of the Solamnic army. The Knights of Solamnia are elite calvary, unit commanders, and dragon riders, but the bulk of the army comes from militias levied from the cities and states of Solamnia.
It's true that the bulk of the Solamnic armies are levied troops and paid soldiers, but they're not the auxiliary. They're the men-at-arms, the Solamnic army proper.
An auxiliary is a reserve, or a body of troops that are provided in support of the main armed forces. In this case, it refers to those individuals and units which are not the men-at-arms, mounted cavalry, or the Knights themselves.
Cheers,
Cam