Surviving to become a 40th level character is hard.
Also, In my conversion, I treated these as Prestige Classes. Is this what others are doing?
Maybe the prereqs should be ability to cast 9th level spells, manifest 9th level powers with the feats epic spellcasting AND epic manifestation. Psionic Enchantmens are 10th level, so epic is the best explanation I can find for them.
Yes, a 36th+ level character may be a lot, but remember that the SKs had centuries to finish the transformation and still they're not full dragons.
The only problem is: 20/20 is now greater than it ever was in AD&D, so this SKs and other advanced beings are really THE guys... This is not a problem to me, since I really think no player should enter a SK's room and kick his ass, but in other DM's campaign, players that should fight them have no serious chance.
that's it
Hopefully soon, I'll have my site up where I'll post my pet rules for advanced beings.
I definately want them to be "the guys" and nigh unkillable, except for someone at their level that has an artifact or two, and even then I still think it should be very difficult.
Kinda torn between the liking what the novels did and not liking what they did as far as taking out too many of the SMs.
Course my campaign will take place a few years before The Verdant Passage, and no SM will die unless the PCs try to kill one. Plus I will probably have Sielba come back in some form.
My breakdown of Hamanu was something like Expert (farmer) 3/ Fighter 6/ Psion 20/Defiler 20 /Dragon 3 or 52 levels!
Borys- Fighter 10 / Psion 20/ Defiler 20/ Dragon 10 or 60!
Rajaat was the scariest-
Pyreen (racial) +2/ Psion 20+/ Preserver 20+/ Defiler 20+/ Cleric 20+ for over 60!
It is hard enough to reach 4th level.
Now think about what it takes to level up. DMG suggested the average of 17 encounters per level. There are generally no XP for something 10 or more levels below you. These guys have been battling against 40+ level beings (gods) to advance.
It's too scarey.
Originally posted by megamania
I reason I ask is they are more powerful than many demi-gods / gods at 40+ levels.
Yeah, they don't take Epic levels into factor at all though, IMO most of those writeups or way too low.
Now think about what it takes to level up. DMG suggested the average of 17 encounters per level. There are generally no XP for something 10 or more levels below you. These guys have been battling against 40+ level beings (gods) to advance.
It's too scarey.
There are other ways of gaining XP without having to fight and kill things.
I suppose most of the SMs haven't seen a real fight since Rajaat breaking free again, and before then I'm sure it was several millenia.
There is also the conditions of how to level up as a dragon. I recall servitude to Outsiders and the such. Anyway- its just a game afterall.
Ha! Found it! I made a Hamanu mock-up for 3e. One of my players got it into their mind that they could take out the Lion King of Urik without much trouble after reading the Prism Pentad. Heh. Anyways, here's the post of that one.
All right, here's Hamanu (as I made him). Before I get into it, I actually made him level by level, starting as a normal person, working his way into the ranks as a warrior (and leader), then becoming a psion, wizard, and soreceror king. On the stats below, I've listed the base stats since no one's been able to agree on a prestige class for dragons. Obviously, for Borys, you would want to give him a higher strength and constitution and probably a lower dex.
Expert 3/Psy War 6/Wizard 20/Psion (Savant) 20/Dragon 4 (not included below)
Str 17, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 23, Wis 19, Cha 22
Base Attack: +15/+5 (this doesn't look right - check me on this)
Feats: Run, Alertness, Improved Unarmed Strike, Leadership, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Weapon Specialization (Greatsword), Scribe Scroll, Spell Focus (Evoc), Cleave, Forge Ring, Great Cleave, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Ambidexterity, Dodge, Craft Staff, Track, Psionic Focus (Kin), Scribe Tattoo, Craft Psionic Arms and Armor, Psionic Weapon, Epic Leadership, Craft Crystal Capacitor, Deep Impact.
[b]Skills:[B/]Animal Empathy 4, Balance 18, Concentration 25, Decipher Script 6, Handle Animal 2, Jump 6, Knowledge (trolls) 20, Perfom (dance) 6, Ride 3, Search 11, Spot 20, Tumble 12, Stabalize Self 20, Psionic Device 20, Knowledge (Tactics) 23, Autohypnosis 20, Craft (weapon) 18, Knowledge (magic) 18, Scry 20, Spellcraft 25, Knowledge (psionics) 25, Psicraft 25, Remote View 25.
Now the fun part: Psionic Powers.
Psychic Warrior 6th
0: Burst, Daze, Catfall
1: Combat Precognition, Lesser Metaphysical Weapon, Hustle
2: Darkvision, Painful Touch
Psion (Savant) 20th
0: Inkling, Talons, Far Hand, Detect Psionics, Distract, Missive, Control Shadow, Know Direction
1: Matter Agitation, Lesser Body Adjustment, Identify, Disable, Object Read
2: Control Flames, Concussion, See Invisible, Body Adjustment, Brain Lock
3: Great Concussion, Remote View, Mindlink, Invisibility Purge, Rejuvination
4: Inertial Barrier, Polymorph Self, Detect Remote Viewing, Aura Sight
5: Brilliant Blast, Metaconcert, Teleport, True See
6: Ablating, Aura Alteration, Null Psionics Field, Retrieve
7: True Concussion, Mass Domination, Ultrablast
8: Matter Manipulation, Mind Blank
9: True Telekinesis, Dissolution
HP: Average to this point would be around 307.
Again, remember this is without any dragon levels. Below, if you're still reading, is my version of the prestige dragon class. Again, it is very, very similar to the original:
Dragon of Athas Epic Prestige Class
Prerequisites: Must be Human; Int=18, Wis=16, Con=15; Must be able to cast 9th level spells; Must be able to manifest 9th level powers; Spellcraft = 25; Psicraft=25; Knowledge (Magic)=25; Knowledge (psionics)=25. Yeah it's tough! It's a freakin' person becoming a freakin' dragon: it ain't easy!
Level Base Att F R W AC Special
1 +15 +15 +10 +8 +0 +1 lvl Psi,Wiz; Dragon 1, bonus feat
2 +20 +18 +12 +12 +0 +1 lvl Psi, Wiz; Dragon 2, bonus feat
3 +25 +21 +14 +16 +0 +1 lvl Psi, Wiz; Dragon 3
4 +30 +24 +16 +20 +4 +1 lvl Psi, Wiz; Dragon 4, bonus feat
5 +35 +28 +18 +24 +8 +1 lvl Psi, Wiz; Dragon 5
6 +40 +32 +20 +28 +15 +1 lvl Psi, Wiz; Dragon 6, bonus feat
7 +45 +36 +22 +32 +24 +1 lvl Psi, Wiz; Dragon 7
8 +50 +40 +24 +36 +30 +1 lvl Psi, Wiz; Dragon 8, bonus feat
9 +55 +44 +26 +40 +40 +1 lvl Psi, Wiz; Dragon 9
10 +60 +48 +28 +44 +55 +1 lvl Psi, Wiz; Dragon 10, bonus feat
Figured they'd get a +5 to their Strength and Constitution per level. Dex would go up 1 every three levels. Spell Resistance (starting at 5th) would go up by 5 per level. Fear, starting at 4th, (12) would go up by these increments: 12, 14, 16, 20, 25, 30, 40.
Breath Weapon is per the original, so starting at 7th level, it would be 10d12, 15d12, 20d12, and 25d12 (nasty).
Damage Reduction, starting at 1st level, would go up by 2 each level.
Regeneration, starting at first, would go like this (per level): 1,1,1,2,2,3,4,6,8,10.
Hit Dice per level is exactly like Dragon Kings: 10d4, 5d4, 3d4, 2d4, 2d4, 3d4, 3d4, 4d4, 4d4, 5d4.
At the very least, this should get you started. The skill points are very close, if not exact, so you're welcome to use them any way you want. Remember that Borys was a different monster than Hamanu, but their tactics were probably pretty close (fighting athasian trolls and fighting dwarves). Hope this helps.
Later, I think we all agreed that there needed to be epic levels, but at that point, the Epic book wasn't out yet. We also added some divine levels, too.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
I still think they should be 20/20, so basically a 40th level character in this system, with a combination of feats, templates and PrCs to make them Champions and Advanced Beings.
I definately want them to be "the guys" and nigh unkillable, except for someone at their level that has an artifact or two, and even then I still think it should be very difficult.
I made the inital progression a little easier on people, but when I expanded the dragons or avangons to 3 PrC's, 4 Epic Spells (with a fairly high XP cost attached to them) which result in Templates to be added to the characters and such, it really begins to make their levels higher. I actually had Hamanu written up as a Psi Warrior/Defiler, who had achieved Stage-1 metamorphosis, and has refused to go beyond that development. I'm still working on how to have him continue to metamorphosize without actually casting the next stage's spell, and what effect it has on him. Basically he's been continuing to take levels in the Stage-1 Dragon PrC above and beyond the first set of 10 (I think it was 10)... If I recall I had him actually around level 65 or so, like Dregoth, just not as far along in development as the undead king.
Borys was also a Psi War/Defiler one (I used that to explain how Hamanu & Borys were the two gifted with weapons - because they were the two more martial-type of champions), however he shortcutted his development, and even though he had cast the Stage-4 spell, he was.... underdeveloped (missing wings primarily, and was a little smaller than he could have been).
I had Dregoth as fully developed except for the last spell, then applied a Kaisharga template on him. If I recall he was either level 65 or so...
Oronis was..... interesting... Accounting for his change of beliefs, and the Avangon process, he's not very far in the development process.
The others I handled along similar lines, taking the information I could about each of the champions, and then building the character.
Hamanu was created (ala Rofadik of the Hill People) to Cleanse Athas of humans. Rajaat didn't really want the guy to have much choice in this manner, so giving Hamanu the power to choose when he would take the next step would not really fit. So Rajaat created Hamanu so that every human life he took added up, gradually moving him up the scale.
Might explain why he let Rikus survive rather than simply drain him to a husk when he had the chance.
Hamanu was the last of Rajaat's champions, and it's likely Rajaat added a few kinks into the whole thing. I do like the idea that Hamanu could drain dragons as well as humans, and there was jack-fatty-squat they could do about it.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Hamanu was created (ala Rofadik of the Hill People) to Cleanse Athas of humans. Rajaat didn't really want the guy to have much choice in this manner, so giving Hamanu the power to choose when he would take the next step would not really fit. So Rajaat created Hamanu so that every human life he took added up, gradually moving him up the scale.
Might explain why he let Rikus survive rather than simply drain him to a husk when he had the chance.
Hamanu was the last of Rajaat's champions, and it's likely Rajaat added a few kinks into the whole thing. I do like the idea that Hamanu could drain dragons as well as humans, and there was jack-fatty-squat they could do about it.
I like this, I think it makes sense that there are some kinks in Hammanu's transformation, just like RaFoaDK played it out. This way Rajaat had an ace up his sleeve no matter what.
Eventually Hammanu is going to hit one of the higher stages and go insane, and who knows what will happen to Athas then. Probably won't be anything left since Bory's is the one responsible for the Sea of Silt, and I don't think Athas can withstand that amount of damage again.
Ok..... somewhere, there was a point I was trying to reach, but I think I lost in in that jumbled mess. Sleep deprivation makes it really hard to stay focused.
Working off the basis that Hamanu wasn't made like the others (as I think I was trying to point out there), then he wouldn't fall into the same metamorphosis cycle that the others do. Hell, I don't think I'd even need to define exactly how it works for him, as nobody else could be made to go through the metamorphosis the same way (without intervention from Rajaat) perhaps...
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Don't forget, Hamanu is the only Champion (that I can recall) who is known to have killed other Champions - he's accredited the death of Myron his predecessor, but that could have been Rajaat's doing. He's also mentioned to have killed (Sielba was it?) the Sorcerer-Monarch of.... Yarmaluke(?), who had his/her city near Urik. It was his killing blow that ended Dregoth's life (even if he seemed to have a countermeasure prepared for the eventuality of someone offing him)
Though I agree that Hammanu is big and baddest of all the Champions around, minus Borys (I think Borys could still take him out, but it would be a good fight), I still think it was a combination of him and the Scorcher and less just Hammanu by himself.
Yes, I understand Hammanu took out Myron without the Scorcher, BUT, I put Myron in the same category as Kalak as far as power was concerned, I think they both were pretty low on the ladder, even though I consider Myron a true Champion and Kalak more of a wannabee who got lucky just like Tithian was trying to do.
I also think there was more to it. Reading the description of the Scrocher it plainly states that it is Neutral, and always has a cause, and if the wielder does not share the cause, then it either summons someone to take the weapon from the wielder, or becomes lost, in both cases the Scorcher doesn't allow the current wielder to use its powers. Yet, another plan of Rajaat's.
Seeing that Myron had lost his purpose and was thinking about going against Rajaat, this meant that the Scorcher was pretty useless to Myron in the battle with him against Hammanu. Which is probably why Myron was such an easy kill, if he had the Scorcher on his side, then maybe Hammanu would have had a harder time with taking out Myron.
The mystic theurge PrC is supposed to be a balanced class. What about making a variation of it that melds arcane magic & psionic power? Ten each of caster & manifester levels in a ten-class-level span, that would certainly hasten the process of becoming an avangion or Athasian dragon. (And even if you think the mystic theurge is broken, this would primarily be for NPCs, so who cares if it's a bit unbalanced?)
You could then make a second variation of the mystic theurge, combining divine magic & psionic power, to allow for the other advanced beings.
Of course, a character like that runs into the eventual epic problem that there is little to no difference between psionics and magic at epic levels, and the line really....gets blurry. So that got me thinking maybe I'd lower one of the two requirements. I still am working with the high magic requirement (after all, Psionic Enchantments were spells augmented by psionics, not powers boosted by magic.... subtle, but IMO an important difference).
So I was thinking to myself, how far would I reduce the Psionic requirement by. Then I remembered about the Psychic Warrior, which didn't exist in 2nd Ed. (I know, technically, neither did the Psion, but I'm working with the idea that the Psionicist is a rough equivalent). then I checked what the highest level a Psychic Warrior can manifest - Level 6. Some people don't agree with my interest in extending the scope to include PsyWars, but I think that I'm fairly justified, as I've used the existence of the Psychic Warrior as the reason Borys and Hamanu were given swords by Rajaat, while there aren't any equivalent weapons for the other Sorcerer-Monarchs/Champions ever mentioned (save 1, but that could also have been a similar situation). If Borys and Hamanu were Psychic Warriors, instead of out-and-out Psions, then they would be the more martial-types of Champions that Rajaat had, and he would have provided them with weapons to counter their less-developed psychic capabilities. Or so my thoughts went.
So, the requirement I ended up with was this: Ability to cast 9th level arcane spells, and Ability to manifest 6th level powers. This does mean that a Wizard/Psion can get there quicker than a straight requirement of level 20 Wizard/level 20 Psion (you only need to be.... level 18 Wizard, and I don't have my PsiHB handy, but I think it was level 12 Psion, but I could be off by a level or two), which means that at roughly level 30, that character could make the requirement. Of course, the Psychic Warrior would need a higher level to be able to get to 6th level spells (I think it's 17th level), so he'd be able to do it roughly 5 levels after the Psion.
Of course, you could also add in a skill requirement, like Knowledge (Arcana) and Knowledge (Psionics), possibly even Knowledge (Dragon) or Knowledge (Avangion) depending on which the character is working towards, to represent their research into the subject, as well as dedication to that development. Requiring something like 43 skill ranks in those would mean that the character could potentially reach it at 40th level - but also alows the character to maybe pick up a few levels of something else along the way, or to finish getting the normal levels in the "original" classes (20 Wizard/20 Psion).
Such requirements also mean that potential future PrC's could be used during development (like the Arch-Defiler of rumor from athas.org), rather than a hard class requirement, which I think is one of the main reasons that hard class reqs. are so frowned upon for the d20 system (especially by WotC).
Though it may be that he really isn't all that great at playing spellcasters like he claims to be.
In Dragon313 they have a Prestige class called a mind mage so instead of being a 20/20 you could be 5th lvl mage 5lvl Psion 10lvl mind mage that might help since you don't have to survive to lvl40 only 20th
That's my take, though. Since there are no *cough, cough* official rules out there, do what works for your campaign.
My suggestion would be to become a advanced being you need following prequesites:
- able to cast 9th level spells
- able to manifest 9th level powers
This would be 17/18 -> 35.
optinal:
Having become an advanced being, the character can never again advance in other classes. Doing the metamorphis the character looses 150000 XPs (->30). HD, BAB, Saves, Skills, Feats, Spells, Powers and anything else remains.
My suggestion would be to become a advanced being you need following prequesites:
- able to cast 9th level spells
- able to manifest 9th level powers
This would be 17/18 -> 35.
optinal:
Having become an advanced being, the character can never again advance in other classes. Doing the metamorphis the character looses 150000 XPs (->30). HD, BAB, Saves, Skills, Feats, Spells, Powers and anything else remains.
There are plenty of way to take powerful characters down a notch and very few of them involve the "more powerful monster" approach. Keep in mind that just as the PCs, at early levels, do not go after the SK directly, the PCs' enemies might not go directly after them, focussing instead on their followers, holdings, or belongings.
I've noticed a trend that the higher the level a PC achieves, the more they begin to rely on their magical items (especially if they can create them themselves). Cause some of those items to go away and see how they react.
I'm sticking with the 20/20 for now, simply because most players that I've had like to have characters in the 9-15th level range. Most of the players retire their characters so that they can build another one up.
Another tactic is to limit the hit points. I tried this once: Your hit points is your Con + Str + Dex + Con Bonus. For each level, they gain 1-5 hps, depending on their class. While this starts them out pretty tough, it means they are not as tough at the higher levels. My PCs liked the challenge, but yours may not.
Not every SK has killed other SK's but still advanced in levels.
Being in level 41 you need at least a challange of CR 34 to gain some experience, what could be something that is CR 34+?
Of course you can also gain experience in other ways, but defeating monsters ist the main source.
don't most characters have an army by then... or at least some followers and minnions... the things that you send them out to do reflects upon your character (and experience, imo)
I always award my PCs for thinking their way around problems.
I agree with this, but the for me it's also a problem. How do you reward this "thinking their way around problems"? Problems can allways/mostly be solved but do you gain more XP in higher levels than you do in lower levels? Or in other words does a low level char get the same XP for "thinking his way around problems" as a higher level char does?
I've found that placing a critter with a 34+ CR is just asking for hack-and-slash.
It is funny, most people I know allways say that they are doing RPGs for the role playing aspect and not for the hunt of experience, but in fact they all want to get more powerfull and advance their char. Btw. this has nothing to do with the kind I master, I am mostly a player not a DM. Being in many groups with different DMs I allways noticed this phenomenon. But this would be another thread.
The point I wanted to show is that the CR-table shows how difficult it is for high level chars to advance and that there isn't much challange for high level chars. That's why I think being an advanced being with 40+ is way to much being 35+ or 30+ is also very high, but at least there could be challanges that a SK could advance without killing other SKs.
As far as awarding the same XP for one job over another, just make sure that your players face more and more difficult tasks. A great way to do this is to give them several tasks at once, where they will have to rely on their followers. If they're followers pull it off (the PC assigned the right task to the right one, or did their research), the PC is awarded XP for that.
Bascially, at the lower levels, I tend to make the adventures more hack-and-slash. Once the PCs hit about 5-9th level, I begin to make the adventures more cerebral; they're Players now, whether or not they want to be. As they advance, the PCs face larger and larger goals. They may occasionally have to take down a big baddy, especially on Athas, but most of the problems cannot be solved with weapons or combat spells.
I'll admit that I've had more than one group of PCs that liked hack-and-slash, and would tend to make new characters once their players reached a certain level. That's fine, too, as the point is to have fun. I just find the "ever-more-challenging-monster" bit to be redundant and boring.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Bascially, at the lower levels, I tend to make the adventures more hack-and-slash. Once the PCs hit about 5-9th level, I begin to make the adventures more cerebral; they're Players now, whether or not they want to be. As they advance, the PCs face larger and larger goals. They may occasionally have to take down a big baddy, especially on Athas, but most of the problems cannot be solved with weapons or combat spells.
I might start doing this, good idea.
I just find the "ever-more-challenging-monster" bit to be redundant and boring.
Agreed, esp in epic campaigns.
For those of you who speak of PC's taking on sorcerer-kings, it should be noted that in the Prism Pentad books, which were based roughly on actual roleplaying sessions of the designers (or so I'm told), the PC's who fought the sorcerer-kings were of a decent level, comparable to the SK's AND most of them were using artifacts or some special powers/abilities granted to them. Rikus had the belt of kings and scourge of rkard, sadira was a freaky sun wizard, agis was a fairly powerful and influential noble/psionicist.
I think if the PC's want to kill a SK it should be possible, but extremely dangerous. Probably a campaign finale encounter as you could expect a few fatalities.
For those of you who speak of PC's taking on sorcerer-kings, it should be noted that in the Prism Pentad books, which were based roughly on actual roleplaying sessions of the designers (or so I'm told), the PC's who fought the sorcerer-kings were of a decent level, comparable to the SK's AND most of them were using artifacts or some special powers/abilities granted to them. Rikus had the belt of kings and scourge of rkard, sadira was a freaky sun wizard, agis was a fairly powerful and influential noble/psionicist.
I think if the PC's want to kill a SK it should be possible, but extremely dangerous. Probably a campaign finale encounter as you could expect a few fatalities.
Originally posted by Tembo-Pie
I actually liked xorlep's take on sorcerer-kings, 9th level spells and 6th level psionics. It would give the sorcerer-kings some variety in their abilities, much like the books did. It would also fit in well with high level adventuring.
Once I get my website fired up, I'll get something up there that would be a complete writeup (sans pictures) of my take on dragons & avangions, for those who are interested. I might even do one up on the other advanced beings as well.
I'm just thinking through this, so I don't have much yet, but here's a quick sketch:
Lessers could become dragons sooner, but they would be less powerful, maybe never developing wings, never gaining devine levels, etc; but they would still get some of the benefits to becoming a dragon - they could just never challenge a true dragon. Unless you're a champion, or have a lot of time on your hands, this is probably the type of dragon you would become. Let's say 7th level spells and powers? Or 9 and 7? Something like. The requirements for going up in level are quite a bit less challenging than a True Dragon's.
True is what all the Champions are. Ditch the whole "elemental vortex" thing: it was too choppy, anyway. The real reason no new dragon can have followers is because they aren't "True" dragons. Trues are 20/20 and are the classic DS dragon.
Thoughts?
The descriptions of the SKs in the Prism Pentad often give the impression that they are all following different paths of metamorphosis
[Begin hijacking]
I was always under the impression that the SKs didn't actually know how to advance from one stage to the next innitially, with the exception of the massive transformation of Borys, which none of them were willing to go through with. Hence, from the beginning, each SK was developing his or her own personal version of the next stage of metamorphosis, and the SKs were not very willing to share the knowledge of the process with his fellow Champions so as to stay a leg up on the competition. The variances within each spell could account for some of the differences between the SKs in their 'dragonhood'. Or perhaps its simply that the metamorphosis spell brings out some of the inner nature of the avanced being, making each into a slightly more visual representation of what lies within their very soul. Hence, the slick, sly, and shadowy Nibenay's form itself is dark, sleek, and smooth (wow, that's a lot of s-words to roll of the tongue). Either way, I would certainly not imagine any two advanced beings of the same type looking the same, even if their powers were identical; though if it is more of the first interpretation, then even their very powers and abilities would be vastly different, since none of them are using the same spell to advance from one stage to the next.
I do like Dawnstealer's idea of there being two types of metamorphosis, but I think that Players should have access to both. The first being the quicker but less powerful version while the second is for those who want to role-play out the many millenia that its going to take in order to achieve a new stage of advancement (you know, raising or taking over a city, sapping its inhabitants over the centuries to fuel the spell, all the while staving of famine, disease, war, kreen raids, and angry DMs). I've personally always wanted to try out some 'grand style political campaigns' in DS ala Birthright or somesuch style of ruling and comanding a city. This gives me some ideas to work with
[End of thread hijacking]
I do like Dawnstealer's idea of there being two types of metamorphosis, but I think that Players should have access to both.
Exactly what I was thinking. A player who wishes to just "become a dragon" can do so in a quick method, but they will be nowhere near as powerful as a true SK. Also, there's a good chance that the SKs would sprinkle this less powerful spell around Athas, so that would-be usurpers would never realize that there was an even more powerful level out there. The True Dragon spell would be a safely guarded (and unique) spell that is different from king to king or queen to queen. Being a True would take a lot more work and lot more time. Probably a lot more lifeforce, too, and some interference by the Pristine Tower.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
I worked off of the prereq's of: Ability to cast 9th level spells, and the Ability to manifest 6th level powers (so that Psychic Warriors could potentially become advanced beings).
Hopefully soon, I'll have my site up where I'll post my pet rules for advanced beings.
I must admit i was originally a sticker for 20/20 + prestige class.
My former DM (i moved cities) and I wrote a dragon progression, the only major difference between it and the others that have been posted here is that size increases came in at certain level (we used 2ed material to guide us) winding up at 10th level dragon being a large / old sized dragon. That way you get the associated physcial bonuses just from size increases. We based the transformation on 2e stuff and winding up physically similar to a red dragon, keeping in mind that these guys would have 40 character levels...
anyway, back to psychic warrior... it's not in the flavour of the original darksun (in terms of the rules presented in cannon material for becoming a dragon) but it makes sense in terms of the flavour of the novels and so on.
My suggestion is that for a psychic warrior to become a dragon, a slightly different set of rituals, relying more on draining the life force of other intellegent being is needed.
That, i think is a core factor that has been missed and can relate to discussion about XP rewards for 40+ level beings.
At certain levels of the metamorphis, they had to drain / sacrifice living beings... i think pyschic warriors undergoing the transformation should require the same amount of HD in normal life PLUS the same amount of HD from Psionic lifeforms, to reflect thier inherent weakness (compared to 'normal' dragons)
And finally.... maybe when dragons cast the metamorphis spells they absorb the XP of some of thier sacrifices....????
Anyway, i like the idea, but it should be harder (and nastier) for a psy warrior to become a dragon.
Or perhaps its simply that the metamorphosis spell brings out some of the inner nature of the avanced being, making each into a slightly more visual representation of what lies within their very soul.
This is exactly the kind of impression that I was getting as well. A much more personalised and flavourful approach than making everyone cookie-cutter dragons.
I wonder if luminaries like Farcluun could fall under the category of lesser advanced beings? He never struck me as being of particularly high calibre (despite his odd appearance in Castle Greyhawk...)