world jumping - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

world jumping

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Jan 04, 2004 20:40:43 i am doing some world jumping in my campaign, mainly, introducing the Cult of the Dragon (from Forgotten Realms into Ansalon. It is at the time where Sammaster is a lich and before he gets destroyed. Would anyone know what time frame that would set me in, in Ansalon? Or would it even matter?
and also, could the cult raise a dracolich without alerting Takhesis?
#2
zombiegleemax
Jan 04, 2004 22:47:36 If you download 2E Cult of the Dragon, you'll realise Sammaster's phylactery was never found. So he was never fully destroyed in that sense. When crossing worlds/cosmologies, I think time frame does not matter. You can always rule that such travels distort time as well or 1 Krynn day=1 FR year, so the cult can be in any DL age. If you read Dawning of a New Age, IIRC Skie went to some other plane and aged much faster than any other dragon on Krynn.

As for dracolich, it depends on which age you're in. If it's the 5th Age, Dark Queen is either dead or lurking. Even if DQ is still around, it depends on how you rule your gods. In Deities & Demigods, deities are able sense anything related to their portfolios. So if you are using this rule, then DQ will be aware of it even before the cultists can complete the transformation. Of course, since Sammaster is an epic NPC, you can always let him create some ridiculous epic spell to block divine remote sensing.
#3
darthsylver
Jan 05, 2004 2:00:13 Well don't forget that Paladine is also attuned to dragons.

The way I normally play it anything that affects any dragon, good or evil, both Takhisis and Paladine are aware of it.
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Now in the fifth age there are no more gods of dragons as one is dead and the other is a mortal.
#4
zombiegleemax
Jan 05, 2004 21:48:41 Though if Sammaster popped up in the early Fifth Age (or lived on Krynn during it), he would have spent several years at least nearly powerless. Remember that even renegade wizards lost their magic while the gods were gone, so that suggests that even a foreign wizard like Sammaster would have been powerless until he figured out or learned something of primal sorcery or mysticism. Obviously Mystra's Weave is not present on Krynn.

More likely he would have arrived sometime during the Fourth Age. Since dragons hadn't been seen on Ansalon in centuries at that point, he would have needed to duck the gods, and the Orders of High Sorcery, to find them offshore. He might then have built a cult in a faraway land, and then been forced into obscurity by the loss of magic in the Fifth Age. Then you could introduce him in the present and explain why he hadn't shown up earlier.
#5
darthsylver
Jan 06, 2004 8:16:23 See that is the thing that i have never liked about the fifth age.

Non-renegade magic has been so connected to the moons and gods of magic that it made sense that the WoHS lose their magic when the gods leave. But renegades losing their magic never made sense to me. Renegades are so rare and were never discussed in any of the fifth age books (probably because eveyone bought into the "magic is gone" theory) and so we have no real idea if renegades lost their power or not. And I just don't buy it.
#6
zombiegleemax
Jan 06, 2004 8:47:30 Actually, it makes perfect sense if you think about it.

In Forgotten Realms, for example, not all wizards worship, or even like, Mystra, the goddess of magic. Yet whenever Mystra has been affected by some calamity (like Karsus's Folly or the Time of Troubles), the effects of what has happened to her trickled down to virtually every spellcaster in the world of Toril because of the impact on the Weave of Magic.

This is because Mystra provides the means by which spellcasters access magic in the first place (for simplicity I won't go into the whole Shar thing just now).

The same holds true on Krynn. In the absence of the gods the ambient magic levels on Krynn were actually extremely low. The writer's who've written the new books have played this down, but in the SAGA products Sorcery and Mysticism had some very severe limitations. Sorcery, being of elemental origin, could only affect non-living things. Mysticism, based in the spirit, could only affect life or spiritual things (this is mentioned in the 3E campaign book but not enforced in the rules). Finally, casting spells producing effects greater than what would be about 5th level in a d20 system was almost impossible. This was why Mina's true cleric powers seemed so awesome even to Mystics.

Even for wizards that do not follow the Orders, the gods still provide the source of ambient magic upon which they draw to empower their spells. When the gods were gone, that power source was lost just as destroying the Weave cuts off the power to wizards regardless of whether they worship Mystra. On Toril a Red Wizard standing in a dead magic zone doesn't get to argue: "But I worship Kossuth!"

This is an old and established concept of world-hopping in (A)D&D. Not every world has the same magical properties, but "guest" wizards may be stuck with local limitations on magic whether they like it or not. On Krynn, that means that when the gods weren't around the availability of magical energy was far less.
#7
darthsylver
Jan 06, 2004 11:07:56 Yes but if the magic for the entire world is provided by the gods of magic (as it is by mystra & shar in FR) then would not the gods be able to just summarily stop wizards from being able to use the magic (just as mystra & shar can do). Thereby eliminating the possiblity of renegades.

Or were all renegades in actuality "5th age" sorcerors before the 5th age.
#8
zombiegleemax
Jan 06, 2004 11:11:24
Originally posted by Psionycx
On Toril a Red Wizard standing in a dead magic zone doesn't get to argue: "But I worship Kossuth!"

This is an old and established concept of world-hopping in (A)D&D. Not every world has the same magical properties, but "guest" wizards may be stuck with local limitations on magic whether they like it or not.

Yeah, but what may not make sense is how a FR wizard can cast spells at all since the Weave does not extend to Krynn, Athas, whatever. I assume the off-world wizard quickly attunes himself to the magic ambience of the new world. Perhaps, Sammaster could have his personal (limited) "battery" of magic source during the 5th Age.
#9
zombiegleemax
Jan 06, 2004 12:26:58
Originally posted by Seraph of Babel
Yeah, but what may not make sense is how a FR wizard can cast spells at all since the Weave does not extend to Krynn, Athas, whatever. I assume the off-world wizard quickly attunes himself to the magic ambience of the new world. Perhaps, Sammaster could have his personal (limited) "battery" of magic source during the 5th Age.

But since the only available "batteries" of magical energy were severely limited, even Sammaster would not be able to simply cast spells.

For example, Krynn wizards (High Sorcery of otherwise) couldn't simply cast elemental spells even though there was innate magic contained within Krynn's elemental nature. Palin and the others had to learn an entirely new methodology of spellcasting (primal sorcery) in order to perform magical feats at all. Essentially they had to switch to a different character class entirely rather than simply adapt.

His lich abilities would have probably remained, as undead appeared to retain those abilities drawn from their negative energy nature.
#10
zombiegleemax
Jan 06, 2004 17:16:50 Couldn't Sammaster just maintain a permanent portal, or constructed one, therefore leaving his link to Mystra open?
The only tricky part would be hiding it from everyone. But i already have that covered. thanks for the discussion by the way it has given me this epiphany.
#11
zombiegleemax
Jan 06, 2004 19:20:53 In theory yes, but in practice it would be problematic due to the fact that Takhisis moved the planet Krynn at the end of the Chaos War. All the standing portals offworld were rendered non-functional, as Khellendros and the huldrefolk discovered to their great dismay.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Jan 04, 2004 20:40:43	i am doing some world jumping in my campaign, mainly, introducing the Cult of the Dragon (from Forgotten Realms into Ansalon. It is at the time where Sammaster is a lich and before he gets destroyed. Would anyone know what time frame that would set me in, in Ansalon? Or would it even matter? and also, could the cult raise a dracolich without alerting Takhesis?
#2 zombiegleemax Jan 04, 2004 22:47:36	If you download 2E Cult of the Dragon, you'll realise Sammaster's phylactery was never found. So he was never fully destroyed in that sense. When crossing worlds/cosmologies, I think time frame does not matter. You can always rule that such travels distort time as well or 1 Krynn day=1 FR year, so the cult can be in any DL age. If you read Dawning of a New Age, IIRC Skie went to some other plane and aged much faster than any other dragon on Krynn. As for dracolich, it depends on which age you're in. If it's the 5th Age, Dark Queen is either dead or lurking. Even if DQ is still around, it depends on how you rule your gods. In Deities & Demigods, deities are able sense anything related to their portfolios. So if you are using this rule, then DQ will be aware of it even before the cultists can complete the transformation. Of course, since Sammaster is an epic NPC, you can always let him create some ridiculous epic spell to block divine remote sensing.
#3 darthsylver Jan 05, 2004 2:00:13	Well don't forget that Paladine is also attuned to dragons. The way I normally play it anything that affects any dragon, good or evil, both Takhisis and Paladine are aware of it. Spoiler * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Now in the fifth age there are no more gods of dragons as one is dead and the other is a mortal.
#4 zombiegleemax Jan 05, 2004 21:48:41	Though if Sammaster popped up in the early Fifth Age (or lived on Krynn during it), he would have spent several years at least nearly powerless. Remember that even renegade wizards lost their magic while the gods were gone, so that suggests that even a foreign wizard like Sammaster would have been powerless until he figured out or learned something of primal sorcery or mysticism. Obviously Mystra's Weave is not present on Krynn. More likely he would have arrived sometime during the Fourth Age. Since dragons hadn't been seen on Ansalon in centuries at that point, he would have needed to duck the gods, and the Orders of High Sorcery, to find them offshore. He might then have built a cult in a faraway land, and then been forced into obscurity by the loss of magic in the Fifth Age. Then you could introduce him in the present and explain why he hadn't shown up earlier.
#5 darthsylver Jan 06, 2004 8:16:23	See that is the thing that i have never liked about the fifth age. Non-renegade magic has been so connected to the moons and gods of magic that it made sense that the WoHS lose their magic when the gods leave. But renegades losing their magic never made sense to me. Renegades are so rare and were never discussed in any of the fifth age books (probably because eveyone bought into the "magic is gone" theory) and so we have no real idea if renegades lost their power or not. And I just don't buy it.
#6 zombiegleemax Jan 06, 2004 8:47:30	Actually, it makes perfect sense if you think about it. In Forgotten Realms, for example, not all wizards worship, or even like, Mystra, the goddess of magic. Yet whenever Mystra has been affected by some calamity (like Karsus's Folly or the Time of Troubles), the effects of what has happened to her trickled down to virtually every spellcaster in the world of Toril because of the impact on the Weave of Magic. This is because Mystra provides the means by which spellcasters access magic in the first place (for simplicity I won't go into the whole Shar thing just now). The same holds true on Krynn. In the absence of the gods the ambient magic levels on Krynn were actually extremely low. The writer's who've written the new books have played this down, but in the SAGA products Sorcery and Mysticism had some very severe limitations. Sorcery, being of elemental origin, could only affect non-living things. Mysticism, based in the spirit, could only affect life or spiritual things (this is mentioned in the 3E campaign book but not enforced in the rules). Finally, casting spells producing effects greater than what would be about 5th level in a d20 system was almost impossible. This was why Mina's true cleric powers seemed so awesome even to Mystics. Even for wizards that do not follow the Orders, the gods still provide the source of ambient magic upon which they draw to empower their spells. When the gods were gone, that power source was lost just as destroying the Weave cuts off the power to wizards regardless of whether they worship Mystra. On Toril a Red Wizard standing in a dead magic zone doesn't get to argue: "But I worship Kossuth!" This is an old and established concept of world-hopping in (A)D&D. Not every world has the same magical properties, but "guest" wizards may be stuck with local limitations on magic whether they like it or not. On Krynn, that means that when the gods weren't around the availability of magical energy was far less.
#7 darthsylver Jan 06, 2004 11:07:56	Yes but if the magic for the entire world is provided by the gods of magic (as it is by mystra & shar in FR) then would not the gods be able to just summarily stop wizards from being able to use the magic (just as mystra & shar can do). Thereby eliminating the possiblity of renegades. Or were all renegades in actuality "5th age" sorcerors before the 5th age.
#8 zombiegleemax Jan 06, 2004 11:11:24	Originally posted by Psionycx On Toril a Red Wizard standing in a dead magic zone doesn't get to argue: "But I worship Kossuth!" This is an old and established concept of world-hopping in (A)D&D. Not every world has the same magical properties, but "guest" wizards may be stuck with local limitations on magic whether they like it or not. Yeah, but what may not make sense is how a FR wizard can cast spells at all since the Weave does not extend to Krynn, Athas, whatever. I assume the off-world wizard quickly attunes himself to the magic ambience of the new world. Perhaps, Sammaster could have his personal (limited) "battery" of magic source during the 5th Age.
#9 zombiegleemax Jan 06, 2004 12:26:58	Originally posted by Seraph of Babel Yeah, but what may not make sense is how a FR wizard can cast spells at all since the Weave does not extend to Krynn, Athas, whatever. I assume the off-world wizard quickly attunes himself to the magic ambience of the new world. Perhaps, Sammaster could have his personal (limited) "battery" of magic source during the 5th Age. But since the only available "batteries" of magical energy were severely limited, even Sammaster would not be able to simply cast spells. For example, Krynn wizards (High Sorcery of otherwise) couldn't simply cast elemental spells even though there was innate magic contained within Krynn's elemental nature. Palin and the others had to learn an entirely new methodology of spellcasting (primal sorcery) in order to perform magical feats at all. Essentially they had to switch to a different character class entirely rather than simply adapt. His lich abilities would have probably remained, as undead appeared to retain those abilities drawn from their negative energy nature.
#10 zombiegleemax Jan 06, 2004 17:16:50	Couldn't Sammaster just maintain a permanent portal, or constructed one, therefore leaving his link to Mystra open? The only tricky part would be hiding it from everyone. But i already have that covered. thanks for the discussion by the way it has given me this epiphany.
#11 zombiegleemax Jan 06, 2004 19:20:53	In theory yes, but in practice it would be problematic due to the fact that Takhisis moved the planet Krynn at the end of the Chaos War. All the standing portals offworld were rendered non-functional, as Khellendros and the huldrefolk discovered to their great dismay.