Dead Truce in 3E - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Dead Truce in 3E

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Jan 07, 2004 1:08:16 I can't believe this is even an issue...

Okay, so I have this character. I've had him since before 3E came out. He's a Dustman, and they of course get the Dead Truce. Or Pact. Whichever, I dun remember and it's late. ^^;

Now I have a new DM, who says that because my character also happens to be undead, the Dead Truce is unbalanced. And I'm not sure how to argue my case.

Help?
#2
zombiegleemax
Jan 07, 2004 1:12:05 What's the Dead Truce?
#3
zombiegleemax
Jan 07, 2004 1:14:57 Dead Truce or Dead Pact. I dun remember which, and I'm too lazy at the moment to check.
#4
zombiegleemax
Jan 07, 2004 1:20:31 Sigh, I don't have the Planewalker's Guidebook. What knowledge I have I make look bigger than it is so that I may appear to be a Planescape guru like some of the others. Now, please, indulge me. Explain the Dead Pact.
#5
zombiegleemax
Jan 07, 2004 1:23:07 Okeedokey.

It's a pact "reached in times more ancient than memory" between the Dustmen and the undead. Undead can't attack or otherwise harm the Dustman unless he attacks them, thus freeing them from the pact for that encounter.

That's the gist of it.
#6
zombiegleemax
Jan 07, 2004 1:26:58 Ah! Of course. I don't know that it's unbalanced. You shouldn't be facing alot of Undead anyways, being an Undead dustie! What the heck is your DM doing putting you against enough undead that such a thing would be considered unbalanced?
#7
zombiegleemax
Jan 07, 2004 1:29:09 Actually, we haven't faced ANY undead...I dunno if he even has plans to put undead in the adventure.

Oh, I forgot to mention that because of this philosophy, Dustmen won't let themselves be resurrected or raised. He says that since I'm undead, I wouldn't let myself be raised ANYWAY...

But...that logic just eats itself, since I wouldn't let myself be rezzed if I were still alive...and again, I'm undead...so...I dunno. Maybe I'll just link him to this thread. ^^;
#8
zombiegleemax
Jan 07, 2004 1:30:25 No. You want to die. You're a Dustman. You have achieved True Death adn being destroyed as Undead is your ultimate reward. Go into oblivion and be contented.
#9
zombiegleemax
Jan 07, 2004 1:30:56 Oh. I'm a vampire, so maybe he's worried that any emancipated spawn of mine can't hurt me? I really don't know why he's all up in arms over it.
#10
zombiegleemax
Jan 07, 2004 1:33:14 That would kind of put an end to my adventuring career, wouldn't it? ~snicker~
#11
zombiegleemax
Jan 07, 2004 1:34:29 Well, don't kill youself, but embrace the end when it comes. Its the culmination fo all that depressing Dustie you've been putting up with since you joined those damn undead hippie freaks.
#12
zombiegleemax
Jan 07, 2004 1:36:14 *LOL* Yes...that makes sense. ~nod~ Thankee. ^_^ I should be able to convince him now.
#13
zombiegleemax
Jan 07, 2004 3:55:24 Yeah. Not coming back is a BIG drawback. At least, in my games, where stupidity has realistic consequences. All the dead truce really says is that if you don't attack them, they won't attack you. It's literally a truce. The moment you do something hostile, they're all free to rend you limb from limb. Your DM could easily rule that any vampire-spawn you create are not subject to your dead truce, on account of the creation likely being a hostile action. I don't see how it's unbalanced. The best it could do for you is effectively get you a suprise round. (This depends on how your DM interprets it though, on a group or individual level)

Maybe just point out to him that in return for this minor advantage vs. undead, if you die, you have to make up a whole new character, probably of at least 2 levels lower than the one who died. Other PC's can be ressurected, you're gone for good.
#14
sildatorak
Jan 07, 2004 15:53:49 Not being able to be raised could come into play if you are destroyed. True Ressurection can make destroyed undead back into a living human or demi-human.
#15
zombiegleemax
Jan 07, 2004 16:44:06 Yeah, but you can't be raised/ressurected against your will. If you're a dustie, which is the only way to get the dead truce, you won't be allowing yourself to be ressurected. Dustmen can't even be true rez'd.
#16
zombiegleemax
Jan 07, 2004 16:45:42 It's not a drawback, its roleplaying. Your character WANTS to find True Death.
#17
zombiegleemax
Jan 07, 2004 17:03:28 Right. From a roleplaying perspective, it's not a hinderance. From a rules/mechanics/game balance perspective, you'll never make it to the high levels. You lose a proportionately large amount of xp than another player, if you die. It's a hinderance.

If I play a character that likes hosting diseases in his body, that's roleplaying too, as well as a mechanical drawback. Unless you're playing that dumb-ass "cancer mage" prestige class from the BOVD. But that one's dumb. And stupid. And dumb some more. And only in the book for shock value. 'Cause it's dumb. It is even dumb. :D
#18
zombiegleemax
Jan 07, 2004 17:06:18 Well, goat, then don't play a Dustie.
#19
zombiegleemax
Jan 07, 2004 17:20:04 Dustmen, the most unbalance faction when planars visit Ravenloft.

Strahd: Take that! I vill kill you all.

AFTER BATTLE:

Strahd: You never attacked me!

Dustie: Of course, means you can't attack me!

Strahd: Bugger.
#20
zombiegleemax
Jan 07, 2004 17:22:47 Why not? I said it's mechanically a hinderance. I would, and have, given up mechanical advantages because it helped roleplaying. I've been willing to drop a character's strength score to 6 before, for no reason other than I didn't think the character should be stronger than that.

I said it's a drawback, not that one shouldn't take drawbacks appropriate to the character. I think characters are defined as much by their advantages as their disadvantages.
#21
zombiegleemax
Jan 07, 2004 19:02:24 Speaking of Dustmen, does anyone have any idea how to motivate Dustman PCs? Besides the obvious direct orders from faction high-ups, that is.
#22
factol_rhys_dup
Jan 07, 2004 19:23:59 It's tough, and it depends on what you want to motivate them to do. Strictly speaking, Dustmen cast off their motivations as much as possible.
#23
sildatorak
Jan 07, 2004 20:04:19 I remember a certain dustman who was motivated to invade Sigil with an army of undead and take over the place…
#24
zombiegleemax
Jan 07, 2004 21:18:12 I don't think it'd be a problem if it were just one, but the party is composed entirely of Dustmen. Properly played, I don't see them getting at all interested in adventuring, or even just participating in some otherwise interesting events within Sigil.
#25
zombiegleemax
Jan 08, 2004 4:16:33 what about a group of undead that are seemingly uneffected by the dead truce?

That would motivate the Dustman especially if the problem was spreading.

Have it so each berk resurrected as one of the undead have their names erased from the dead book....

With dustman its all about duty rather than passion.
#26
jasperdm
Jan 08, 2004 4:43:33 I might add, that if playing by the planeswalker.com's version, and I am... :D that non-mindless undead can make a Will save to break the Truce before you do. For two feat slots, it's not over powered, trust me.

And BTW, my Dustman in Ravenloft is headed to go negotiate with Strahd even now...find out what happens next session. And if Strahd can't make the 17 Will save to break the Truce first...well then bugger is right. I get to cower, follow vampiric law to the letter to avoid offending him, and get out with my ass intact. One slip up...

*beautiful dominated woman offers hand to be kissed, Seth does so, only out of respect*

Strahd: "You have laid hands on my blood concubine. That is an insult to my possession of her, necromancer. I don't care if she offered it to you, it was not hers to offer. Now you die!"

*messy sounds of quiet, unassuming mortif undertaker getting messily ripped to shreds by irate vampire lord*

No way to completely prevent it by the posted feats, only to make it uncomfortable for the aggresive undead.
#27
zombiegleemax
Jan 08, 2004 4:49:55 you could always scream at him

'Screw you boy!'

though that may be a bad thing to do.

If I was ever to get in a situation in front of strahd I would stand there.

Bow

and say:
'My lord I am here on business from those that serve as death, I bring important news.'

Dont except anything!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mmm that was interesting red wine......

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Jan 07, 2004 1:08:16	I can't believe this is even an issue... Okay, so I have this character. I've had him since before 3E came out. He's a Dustman, and they of course get the Dead Truce. Or Pact. Whichever, I dun remember and it's late. ^^; Now I have a new DM, who says that because my character also happens to be undead, the Dead Truce is unbalanced. And I'm not sure how to argue my case. Help?
#2 zombiegleemax Jan 07, 2004 1:12:05	What's the Dead Truce?
#3 zombiegleemax Jan 07, 2004 1:14:57	Dead Truce or Dead Pact. I dun remember which, and I'm too lazy at the moment to check.
#4 zombiegleemax Jan 07, 2004 1:20:31	Sigh, I don't have the Planewalker's Guidebook. What knowledge I have I make look bigger than it is so that I may appear to be a Planescape guru like some of the others. Now, please, indulge me. Explain the Dead Pact.
#5 zombiegleemax Jan 07, 2004 1:23:07	Okeedokey. It's a pact "reached in times more ancient than memory" between the Dustmen and the undead. Undead can't attack or otherwise harm the Dustman unless he attacks them, thus freeing them from the pact for that encounter. That's the gist of it.
#6 zombiegleemax Jan 07, 2004 1:26:58	Ah! Of course. I don't know that it's unbalanced. You shouldn't be facing alot of Undead anyways, being an Undead dustie! What the heck is your DM doing putting you against enough undead that such a thing would be considered unbalanced?
#7 zombiegleemax Jan 07, 2004 1:29:09	Actually, we haven't faced ANY undead...I dunno if he even has plans to put undead in the adventure. Oh, I forgot to mention that because of this philosophy, Dustmen won't let themselves be resurrected or raised. He says that since I'm undead, I wouldn't let myself be raised ANYWAY... But...that logic just eats itself, since I wouldn't let myself be rezzed if I were still alive...and again, I'm undead...so...I dunno. Maybe I'll just link him to this thread. ^^;
#8 zombiegleemax Jan 07, 2004 1:30:25	No. You want to die. You're a Dustman. You have achieved True Death adn being destroyed as Undead is your ultimate reward. Go into oblivion and be contented.
#9 zombiegleemax Jan 07, 2004 1:30:56	Oh. I'm a vampire, so maybe he's worried that any emancipated spawn of mine can't hurt me? I really don't know why he's all up in arms over it.
#10 zombiegleemax Jan 07, 2004 1:33:14	That would kind of put an end to my adventuring career, wouldn't it? ~snicker~
#11 zombiegleemax Jan 07, 2004 1:34:29	Well, don't kill youself, but embrace the end when it comes. Its the culmination fo all that depressing Dustie you've been putting up with since you joined those damn undead hippie freaks.
#12 zombiegleemax Jan 07, 2004 1:36:14	LOL Yes...that makes sense. ~nod~ Thankee. ^_^ I should be able to convince him now.
#13 zombiegleemax Jan 07, 2004 3:55:24	Yeah. Not coming back is a BIG drawback. At least, in my games, where stupidity has realistic consequences. All the dead truce really says is that if you don't attack them, they won't attack you. It's literally a truce. The moment you do something hostile, they're all free to rend you limb from limb. Your DM could easily rule that any vampire-spawn you create are not subject to your dead truce, on account of the creation likely being a hostile action. I don't see how it's unbalanced. The best it could do for you is effectively get you a suprise round. (This depends on how your DM interprets it though, on a group or individual level) Maybe just point out to him that in return for this minor advantage vs. undead, if you die, you have to make up a whole new character, probably of at least 2 levels lower than the one who died. Other PC's can be ressurected, you're gone for good.
#14 sildatorak Jan 07, 2004 15:53:49	Not being able to be raised could come into play if you are destroyed. True Ressurection can make destroyed undead back into a living human or demi-human.
#15 zombiegleemax Jan 07, 2004 16:44:06	Yeah, but you can't be raised/ressurected against your will. If you're a dustie, which is the only way to get the dead truce, you won't be allowing yourself to be ressurected. Dustmen can't even be true rez'd.
#16 zombiegleemax Jan 07, 2004 16:45:42	It's not a drawback, its roleplaying. Your character WANTS to find True Death.
#17 zombiegleemax Jan 07, 2004 17:03:28	Right. From a roleplaying perspective, it's not a hinderance. From a rules/mechanics/game balance perspective, you'll never make it to the high levels. You lose a proportionately large amount of xp than another player, if you die. It's a hinderance. If I play a character that likes hosting diseases in his body, that's roleplaying too, as well as a mechanical drawback. Unless you're playing that dumb-ass "cancer mage" prestige class from the BOVD. But that one's dumb. And stupid. And dumb some more. And only in the book for shock value. 'Cause it's dumb. It is even dumb. :D
#18 zombiegleemax Jan 07, 2004 17:06:18	Well, goat, then don't play a Dustie.
#19 zombiegleemax Jan 07, 2004 17:20:04	Dustmen, the most unbalance faction when planars visit Ravenloft. Strahd: Take that! I vill kill you all. AFTER BATTLE: Strahd: You never attacked me! Dustie: Of course, means you can't attack me! Strahd: Bugger.
#20 zombiegleemax Jan 07, 2004 17:22:47	Why not? I said it's mechanically a hinderance. I would, and have, given up mechanical advantages because it helped roleplaying. I've been willing to drop a character's strength score to 6 before, for no reason other than I didn't think the character should be stronger than that. I said it's a drawback, not that one shouldn't take drawbacks appropriate to the character. I think characters are defined as much by their advantages as their disadvantages.
#21 zombiegleemax Jan 07, 2004 19:02:24	Speaking of Dustmen, does anyone have any idea how to motivate Dustman PCs? Besides the obvious direct orders from faction high-ups, that is.
#22 factol_rhys_dup Jan 07, 2004 19:23:59	It's tough, and it depends on what you want to motivate them to do. Strictly speaking, Dustmen cast off their motivations as much as possible.
#23 sildatorak Jan 07, 2004 20:04:19	I remember a certain dustman who was motivated to invade Sigil with an army of undead and take over the place…
#24 zombiegleemax Jan 07, 2004 21:18:12	I don't think it'd be a problem if it were just one, but the party is composed entirely of Dustmen. Properly played, I don't see them getting at all interested in adventuring, or even just participating in some otherwise interesting events within Sigil.
#25 zombiegleemax Jan 08, 2004 4:16:33	what about a group of undead that are seemingly uneffected by the dead truce? That would motivate the Dustman especially if the problem was spreading. Have it so each berk resurrected as one of the undead have their names erased from the dead book.... With dustman its all about duty rather than passion.
#26 jasperdm Jan 08, 2004 4:43:33	I might add, that if playing by the planeswalker.com's version, and I am... :D that non-mindless undead can make a Will save to break the Truce before you do. For two feat slots, it's not over powered, trust me. And BTW, my Dustman in Ravenloft is headed to go negotiate with Strahd even now...find out what happens next session. And if Strahd can't make the 17 Will save to break the Truce first...well then bugger is right. I get to cower, follow vampiric law to the letter to avoid offending him, and get out with my ass intact. One slip up... beautiful dominated woman offers hand to be kissed, Seth does so, only out of respect Strahd: "You have laid hands on my blood concubine. That is an insult to my possession of her, necromancer. I don't care if she offered it to you, it was not hers to offer. Now you die!" messy sounds of quiet, unassuming mortif undertaker getting messily ripped to shreds by irate vampire lord No way to completely prevent it by the posted feats, only to make it uncomfortable for the aggresive undead.
#27 zombiegleemax Jan 08, 2004 4:49:55	you could always scream at him 'Screw you boy!' though that may be a bad thing to do. If I was ever to get in a situation in front of strahd I would stand there. Bow and say: 'My lord I am here on business from those that serve as death, I bring important news.' Dont except anything!!!!!!!!!!!! Mmm that was interesting red wine......