|#1zombiegleemaxFeb 01, 2004 21:43:14||A while back there were tons of debates about what his 3.0 stats would be and I figured that after buying the DL campaign setting it would be settled but sadly, there were few if any stats for the main characters of the book. Why has all the debate about his levels stopped? Did I miss something? Will there ever be any definitive stats for ole Raistlin? I never think that what I come up with looks "official" enough. I would imagine he would have 10 levels of WOHS and 5 levels of Archmage. Who knows about the rest. If anyone can update me, I'd love to hear what's going on.|
|#2zombiegleemaxFeb 01, 2004 23:18:39||Well all I know is that he wasen't published (along with the other heros) is becuase the DLCS only covers the War of Souls onward.|
If you ask me if Cameron and crew aren't around what's the point?
Dragonlance is as much about the people as it is about the world, if not more. Meh, all good things must come to an end, and DL as we knew and loved it must too.
I would think evenualy Ol' Rast would have a template on him or something silly.
|#3DragonhelmFeb 01, 2004 23:41:57||I would say his stats are more likely to appear in War of the Lance, coming out this summer.|
|#4daedavias_dupFeb 01, 2004 23:49:00|
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Hopefully they will be in time intervals. Pre-WotL, Post-WotL, and Test of the Twins stats for him would almost be needed, but that is just me.
|#5IllithidbixFeb 02, 2004 5:18:56||I really fail to see the need for Raistlin stats, unless you actually intend to fight him, in which case I think his stats can be easily sumerised as "You die".|
I suppose you could recreate the chronicles adventures and start of playing him, however then he'll only be about 4th level anyway (unfortunately there is the problem that he has technically taken and passed his test, but is not high enough level to cast fireball yet...)
|#6cam_banksFeb 02, 2004 7:25:03|
Originally posted by Illithidbix
I've learned that the major draw to having NPC stats in published gaming supplements like the Dragonlance Campaign Setting is for reference, not use in the game. As fans, we're interested to see how good the character is at things, how what they have been capable of doing in the novels is reflected in their ability scores and skills. These NPCs serve also as examples and models for other, similar characters, whether they are villains for the heroes to face or player character heroes of their own.
Many people play Dragonlance with the intent of playing characters very much like Sturm, Tanis or Raistlin, or encountering foes who make them feel as they did when they read about Lord Soth, Verminaard or Mina. It's this kind of identification and the appeal of seeing your favorite characters written up with game stats that makes them a significant part of any game supplement.
|#7IllithidbixFeb 02, 2004 10:36:59||Well I get what you're saying, however I'm personally of the opinion that trying to shoehorn a character created from a novel into a game system as rigidly defined as D&D is generally produces unsatisfactory results, although going the otherway round seems to work well enough (providing you don’t make the limitations as blatently obvious and are obviously smart enough to expand and adapt).|
The thing with comparing stats is that it seems to provide little function aside a bit of ego-stoking. (Player: Whoot! My Elf has higher charisma than both Alhana, and Laurana, who's the prettiest elf-girl now eh? Hey… maybe I could go back in time and seduce Tanis before… etc) And then there is the afore mentioned error of interpretation. (DM: “No you don’t, the books wrong, she’s got a Charisma of 31 in THIS game, the furthest you’ll get is a raised eyebrow…” Player: Mutter Mutter, bloody social-munchkin…"
|#8Charles_PhippsFeb 02, 2004 11:43:10||I do think its important actually because I believe its very possible to beat the characters.|
|#9IllithidbixFeb 02, 2004 15:36:16|
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
In what way? Looking at what they manage to achieve in the books, most Dragonlance Characters don't seem to be very high level at all. I mean in Book III of Chronicles, it's clear that Tanis and Caramon (even after his Gladatorial training) have considerable problem fighting off a small group of (Baaz and Kapak?) Draconians, and it’s also clear that the arrival of the Bozak would have killed them except for the fact that Tanis had his anti-magic Bracers that he got from Dalamar, and then Tasslehoff happened. Their major achievements seem as much down to avoiding fights and lots of handy coincidences rather than charging in and bashing people with force of arms.
By actual D&D stats one of them should have been able to kill the lot without breaking a sweat, perhaps even getting any Xp.
The reason for the contrast is of course because the Characters behave according to the story, and Tracy and Margaret appear to like fairly realistic fights, at least until Magic becomes involved .
Likewise, the reverse is true in other situations, in D&D terms Lauranna by herself would have been barely able to put a dent in Beryl’s 900 or so hitpoints before becoming a bloody pulp, although I suppose she could have crit’ed with that True Dragonlance of hers, which may just have done it with Con damage… (rather lucky pair of 20’s there… probably in the region of Legolas’s climb check in film of RoTK…)
|#10ferratusFeb 02, 2004 16:28:24||The use of example characters is multi-fold. |
1) They are useful as references for character classes, nations, and organizations.
2) They help ground the DM's campaign in shared world by using cameo characters. For example, You know you are in the Forgotten Realms when you chat with Drizz't Do'Urden or Storm Silverhand.
3) Fanboys wonder about the D&D stats of their favourite characters.
Now in regards to the DLCS, they've got a few example characters that satisfy the 2nd and 3rd criteria, but they don't really help the second.
For example they have placed Alhana Starbreeze beside the Desolation entry. Did she wander off into the desolation after handing command of her forces over the Gilthas? Alhana is a good character for an NPC ally, but I'd rather have more information on what role she is playing in the campaign setting. For the Desolation I'd rather have had a Khotai barbarian or an afflicted kender character to create a picture of the desolation's inhabitants.
Likewise, Gilthas and Kieransay are in the Qualinesti area in their pre-WoS incarnation. They'd be better suited in the plains of dust, telling me what they are doing there. Are they planning to get out? Form a new nation?
Gerard uth Mondar is well placed in Solamnia, but again we don't really know how he fits into the wider campaign world post-WoS.
Only Governor Kang is a perfect example of getting the maximum use out of an example character. He is a nice typical bozak, showcases the new Legendary Tactician class, and you know what he is doing and what you can use him for. (That example draconian outpost is excellent btw).
Age of Mortals does less well than the DLCS here. Most of the characters are not particularly well... alive. So they are not particularly useful for cameo appearances and other facets of gameplay. So instead of Silvanoshei, I'd have rather seen some other Silvanesti noble, particuarly if he was outfitted to face the harsh new world he has found himself in. Give him some survival gear, a few ranger-esque feats, a level in cleric of Sargonnas and a cloak of red leather and black feathers... well you get the idea. ;)
Laurana should have been saved for the WotL sourcebook, because her stats would be pretty much identical post-WotL and she would be much more useful there, being alive and all.
Rig Mer-Kel and Fiona aren't really all that popular (being minor supporting characters) and aren't alive, so I'd rather have seen a Mariner pirate or ally that can ferry the heroes around. For Fiona I'd have rather seen a Legionnaire of Steel to showcase one of those new character classes. I'd have rather seen stats for General Samuval (the current ruler of Qualinesti) than Marshal Medan (the former one).
Palin, Dalamar, Blister, and Camilla do their jobs perfectly. Blister shows us how a kender dealing with the tragedy of the Desolation. Camilla with the loss and return of the gods. Palin is the person holding Solace together, just as his father did before him, and Dalmar is leading the WoHS. They are thus good example characters, and useful for gaming with.
I'd have also liked to have seen more stats for villains in the campaign setting. I don't think there was a single one in either book.
|#11zombiegleemaxFeb 02, 2004 17:32:39||And, keep in mind, the Companions ALL started as DnD characters, then were put in books. I like looking at Caramon, for example. Strong and Tough (STR and CON), moderately quick (Dex) and Wise (Wis). He was fairly Charismatic, too. Course, I disagree with his INT of 12, though. It should have been a little lower, and his Wis a little higher. |
Of course, the stats were first, then the books were written.
10th Level in Dragons of Faith:
|#12baron_the_curseFeb 02, 2004 19:43:28||Actually 12 sounds right for Caramon. He was not dumb and slightly above avarage. He was a deep thinker... and by the time he analyzed everything in his head the group was always way ahead of him. :D|
|#13zombiegleemaxFeb 02, 2004 21:08:08||In the case of raistlins stats, many people probably view him as pretty close to the pinnacle of mortal power on krynn. To see his levels and abilities would provide for many of us some sort of unofficial limit to characters power. It's probably not in concrete, but characters much higher then raistlin would probably do some harm to the consistincy of dragonlance.|
I mean, I consider myself as close to a power gamer as you cna get without actually being one, but I don't think I would want to play in dragonlance a group of characters that would wipe the floor with Raistlin. Make him sweat, sure, but not much more then that.
|#14zombiegleemaxFeb 03, 2004 4:14:04|
Originally posted by Illithidbix
Yeah - there is actually huge difference between stories (which are realistic) and D&D rules that ARE NOT. People in stories die very easily - like in real life. So fights with even normal monsters (like minor draconians) are hard. This is not so in game. In game rules Tanis and Caramon were probably in very high levels. But I think Caramon should have still be better fighter than average draconian trooper or half-dozen of them. So maybe just these dragonians were really elite troopers with more levels/experience...
Another good example is Tasslehoff, especially during the War of Souls or Dragons of Summer Flame. In this time he should be VERY experienced. So, if he is rogue, he probably is about 15th-20th level rogue!!! He should have kicked ass, and normal knights easily. But no, everyone can push and hurl him around as they saw fit (like he would be 1st level).
Let's not think too much about these things, much easier that way... But stats for Characters are still nice and as for me, RPG player, they give nice info.
|#15jaanosFeb 04, 2004 4:12:02||If think Raistlins stats are an interesting topic... i think they should be available, but only as a guide to what he is capable of.|
I am a massive Darksun / Dragonlance fan - don't like the other settings. Basically, i put Raistlin (at his peak) up with Rajaat - as powerful as mortal can be. In my 3e Darksun Campain, Rajaat is a 20th level Preserver, 20th level Defiler - at least that's what the players think, they don't know about his levels in various prestige classes.
Raistlin, when he confronts the Queen of Darkness in Test of the Twins - probably around 30-40th level character.
Now i know alot of you are probably going:
"Get the fark outa here!"
But to clarify: I use Deities and Demigods and Epic Level Handbook, and all my Gods and Demi Gods have additional epic levels and appropiate number of epic feats... makes them that much tuffer. In that context, a 30-40 level character will provide... amusement to a true god, a group a challenge, maybe a sweat, but little else.
Anyway, sorry for the ramble - i say, bring on the stats!
|#16iltharanosFeb 04, 2004 14:00:10|
Originally posted by Jaanos
If anyone remembers, the old gold-box Dark Queen of Krynn computer game let PCs rise to as high as 40th level. So, Jaanos, there's your precedent! :D
|#17jaanosFeb 04, 2004 17:11:23||Cool - Precendent is 9/10th's of the Law! (stupid poloticians are the other tenth...)|
|#18iltharanosFeb 04, 2004 18:02:37|
Originally posted by Jaanos
Don't you mean possession is 9/10ths of the law? ;)
That video game was the best, what with journeying to Taladas, meeting Raistlin, and fighting the Dark Queen's draconic avatar, all in one game!
|#19zombiegleemaxFeb 04, 2004 21:05:49||Ah, Dark Queen of Krynn. I LOVED all the gold box games...best DnD in a non tabletop setting ever.|
Plus, and this is just me, but bear with me. I view Dragonlance as pretty low magic. Think about it. If you were in Greyhawk, or FR, a 3rd level mage is nothing. A few peasants would know that he only has a limited supply of spells, and they can just take him out with a few rock throws.
In DL, a 3rd level Mage (early Raistlin) could make whole villages cower with one select spell and some flash powder.
And, in DL, RELICS like Mantooth, Wyrmslayer and Bane are woefully weak when compared to even many of the standard weapons in DnD (Frostbrand, Holy Avenger, Dwarven Thrower, etc) that are by no means unique in FR or GH.
I like DL for just that reason. In FR, a midsize town has a good amount of arcane and divine casters rolling around. DL has more hedge wizards/apothocars. A true wizard or cleric or druid almost starts riots.
That really is why I like DL, and the great pantheon (much smaller than FR, but more structured than GH) and the unique classes (knights, holy order of the stars [which essentially normal GH and FR has now, with cleric domains, though}).
|#20jaanosFeb 05, 2004 0:33:21||That's a uniquely american take on the law, i'm afraid. Here in Australia, "Precedent is nine tenths of the law" is a common phrase when studying first year non-statute law.|
i.e precedents guide the courts decisions, not possesion. Not sure if your comment was meant tounge in cheek or not... but anyways....
Originally posted by iltharanos
|#21iltharanosFeb 05, 2004 0:40:04|
Originally posted by Jaanos
Ahh. I didn't know that about Australian law ... of course, I don't know anything about Australian law.
But yes, the comment was meant tongue in cheek.
|#22IllithidbixFeb 05, 2004 5:47:15|
Originally posted by K_Man
Indeed, in fact I the 1st one (Champions of Krynn) was actually what got into Dragonlance in the first place.
I had managed to get a copy of the 1st ed AD&D monster manual from a charity shop, but had no other access to anything D&D related, so when my family finally got a computer went looking for games and got it, since I wanted to know how D&D
Warning Spoliers and Nostalgia…
The bit with casting enlarge on Tas when you seize control of the windmaster’s?) chamber in the flying citadel and then having Tas crash the citadel into an adjacent one as the citadels are just about to annihilate the majority of the good armies. That picture has to win somekind of “best use of crappy graphics ever!” award. :D
Then get thrown onto the other citidel you have the fun of running around a collapsing flying citadel, full of enermy troops, then looting the corpses of some mercenaries and nicking the uniforms so you disguises so you can hitch a lift on a group of red-dragons evacuating to safety …
|#23zombiegleemaxFeb 06, 2004 9:50:29||Here's a little sneak peek at what we have planned for presenting Raistlin in different eras...|
Towers of High Sorcery has Raistlin at age 16 (from The Soulforge) as an apprentice mage, with a short in-character piece by Margaret Weis and new art by Larry Elmore showing the young man wearing white robes! Towers also has the archmage Fistandantilus as he was during the Age of Might.
The Dragonlance Adventure Game early this summer will have Raistlin as a playable character, using a scaled-down version of the d20 System rules (along with the other Heroes of the Lance).
The War of the Lance sourcebook will present Raistlin as he appeared at the beginning of Chronicles, as well as deal with the mage's influence on the war and other events.
Finally, the Legacy of the Twins (2005 release) sourcebook will reveal Raistlin as the Master of Past and Present, a powerful figure mighty enough to challenge even the gods!
Good things come to those who wait, and Raistlin fans should not be dissapointed. Keep in mind, though, that his part in these products is just a tiny piece of a much greater whole. Enjoy!
Sovereign Press, Inc.
|#24iltharanosFeb 06, 2004 11:42:44||Forget Raistlin. Fistandantilus in the Age of Might is awesome.|
|#25cam_banksFeb 06, 2004 11:57:43|
Originally posted by iltharanos
Oh sure, you say that now, and then you meet the guy, and he's killing your house plants and trying to get you to sweep the laboratory floor, sapping your will to live, driving off your friends and family with his off-color necromancy jokes...
|#26ferratusFeb 06, 2004 12:43:41||I'm hoping for NPC's that we have never seen before, and their role in the modern dragonlance campaign setting. I suppose it was inevitable to have 4 different versions of his stats, but I'm not going to be full of glee to see them.|
|#27zombiegleemaxFeb 06, 2004 12:57:56||Towers will have NPCs from the pages of Dragonlance fiction, many of whom have never been presented in gaming products before. These span the history of Dragonlance from the Age of Dreams all the way through the modern era. It has a little something for everyone!|
Sovereign Press, Inc.
|#28iltharanosFeb 06, 2004 12:59:16|
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Pah! You merely have to get to know the man. He's just misunderstood. A visionary out of his own time. Besides, it's not like he's going to suck my life-force out of me.
|#29The_White_SorcererFeb 06, 2004 13:35:31|
Originally posted by jechambers
SWEET! That's gonna be my favorite piece of "art" by Elmore. And mind you, I normally hate Elmore's "art."
|#30ferratusFeb 06, 2004 13:43:04|
Originally posted by jechambers
Nice dodge. Just for the record though, if there isn't any information about the Wizards of High Sorcery in the post WoS era, I'm going to be very.... cranky. ;)
|#31theredrobedwizardFeb 07, 2004 12:52:54||Raistlin Majere (Human Male Necromancer 5/Black Robe 10/Archmage 5)|
There's Raist at level 20. If we're going epic...
Necromancer 15/Black Robe 10/Archmage 5
|#32Charles_PhippsFeb 07, 2004 14:54:33||Who would win...|
or Lina Inverse?
I'd have to say sorry Raist
Linna's ownz you
|#33zombiegleemaxFeb 08, 2004 9:01:18|
Originally posted by TheRedRobedWizard
you have to give him atleast a few levels of war mage. the age of mortals book says he studied as one when caramon and he was mercenaries.
|#34cam_banksFeb 08, 2004 11:40:36|
Originally posted by lord kenwolf
He'd have to have Weapon Focus and a number of other feats which are somewhat unlikely. Studying as a war mage doesn't necessarily mean you have levels of the prestige class - he certainly wouldn't have qualified for it before the War of the Lance.
|#35WizardmanFeb 08, 2004 22:28:19|
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Hmm... I don't know... if Raistlin made a age/breast size comment, he'd be toast. Otherwise... I'm not so sure. Granted she beat a god, but Raistlin would have if he wanted to.
Actually, the real fight would be between Caramon and Gourry- as long as food was involved.
Back to the stats question...
I don't see Raistlin as a Necromancer. By the end of Legends, I'd say Wiz 10/WoHS 10/Acm 5. I never saw any passage that suggests that he specialized.
|#36Charles_PhippsFeb 08, 2004 23:35:06||Probably actually they wouldn't fight. Raistlin would instead offer to tamper with her body magically and she'd teach him the Dragonslave and instant spellcasting/repetition|
Then Krynn's idiots would burn
I gotta edge Camaron vs. Gourry though. Gourry is what we call...whipped
Its a pity Sturm never met Amelia when they were alive.
|#37WizardmanFeb 09, 2004 2:40:09||While you have a point, the only person that whips Gourry is Lina (okay, Amelia blinds him with cuteness and Sylphiel feeds him). Everybody else would be fair game- especially if the last chicken leg is at stake.|
Sturm and Amelia? Yeah, I thought about that. It frightened me.:D
How about Zelgadis and Tanis ever meeting? Or Filia and Goldmoon? And, oh, the trouble that Xellos and Tas could get into!
|#38shugiFeb 11, 2004 19:05:24||Of course, I posted some stats for Raistlin on www.dragonlance.com, but no one remembers me on these boards anymore.....|
|#39daedavias_dupFeb 11, 2004 19:17:40|
Originally posted by Shugi
Because you never post here anymore, you big doofus!!! :P:P:P
I liked your stats, only I think that it is safe to say that our ol' pal Raistlin was more then 20th level. I did find the levels of Loremaster rather interesting.
|#40shugiFeb 13, 2004 18:20:34|
Originally posted by Daedavias
Very true, very true. That may have to change...these "guest-starring" appearances just aren't doing it. :P
|#41raistlinroxFeb 18, 2004 0:12:10||It would have been hard for him to have been specialized because in 2nd ed., specialists were renegades if i remember correctly....|