I wondered about this and of course realize that none of us want an Elmunchkin uber character, but really it would make sense for some of the better known NPCs to be Epic level. I mean after all, what happens when the PCs hit level 21 if they are the best in their profession? I think that the stats so many of us use (myself included) are still based on old 1e/2e days that it is hard to adapt to the new rules system.
As you may know from other posts, my campaign has just started and this will have little immediate effect on the PCs. BUT, why wouldn't NPCs use Epic spells if they have access to them?
As an example, I think that it might be feasible that events such as the Flight of Fiends could be considered an Epic event. What if, looking at it thru the lens of the ELHB, the event was an Epic divine spell using the Crook of Rao as a divine focus?
Thoughts? Anyone re-stat a notable mover and shaker to Epic status?
Now if your like most new gamers and a majority of the old ones you like IMHO mind numbing uber power gameing and min-maxing then make your game that way. If you and your players enjoy it then it's fine for you.
I on the other hand frown on that type of so-called roll(role) playing. So do what you like, even I can't stop you.
If the DM wants "his" GH to be a carbon copy of the way Oerth evolves in the LG campaign, then his epic players will have to go look beyond the Flanaess (not a difficult feat once you realize the Flanaess is really only a little piece of Oerth).
If, on the other hand, the DM is willing to have his own GH setting which can evolve independantly from the one of the RPGA, then there is no reason you can't allow epic characters to have an impact on the Flanaess.
After all, many of us GH fans dreamed of the possibility of dealing with Mordenkainen, invading the Vault or dealing once and for all with Iuz. I certainly didn't feel it would be impossible after reading the Gord the Rogue series (an epic character if there was one!)
My opinion is that, as long as you stay true to the GH spirit, there is no reason you can't allow some (radical) changes.
Another possibility would be epic-level characters that don't affect their world directly (at least not in a way commoners could notice). I think the best example of such a campaign is the old Night Below adventure. If the heroes succeed, they have saved their whole world .. but nobody notice because nobody even knew about the threat.
Once you reach epic-level, you could spend all your time dealing with extraplanar/underwater/underdark menaces which "normal" folks don't know about. Governments, top officials and epic NPCs could know but they won't tell commoners. You'll just be part of an elite group that keeps pretty much everything confidential.
Of course, if the players' idea of an epic campaign is to create a volcano in the middle of Rel Mord, people will tend to notice...
I prefer that solution. Prevents them from munchkining up the setting for the rest of us by their mere presence.
Hmm. It was always my impression that "epic level" types typically either left the world behind to adventure in the planes or became demigods. Myrlund, Zagig, Daern, etc.
My sentiments exactly. At some point the character would get tagged as a Hero-God.... Ye'cind, Heward, Daoud, Azor'alq, Gadhalyn, Genwar Argrim, Mayaheine, Kelanen, etc. Why Rary and Mordenkainen, don't take this step and why a Demigod like Iuz keeps mucking around on Oerth I don't know.
Originally posted by Argon
I don't like to include game breaking abilities or spells in my campaign. Because you are forced to result to the Holy High Munchkin solution. That meaning in order to counter act a game breaking sitiuation you must break the game itself.
Now if your like most new gamers and a majority of the old ones you like IMHO mind numbing uber power gameing and min-maxing then make your game that way. If you and your players enjoy it then it's fine for you.
First, I am not new to D&D as I have been playing its various incarnations since 1980.
Second, no I do not like game breaking spells, skills, etc. either. I am certainly not a munchkin player or DM. In fact, most would say that I am stingy with magic items etc.;)
However, powers that are beyond mortal understanding such as fantasy gods are part of the game. I do not use stats for gods because they are gods and are thus so far above a mortal in power that they cannot be discussed in the same context. Legendary figures such as Zagig, Mordenkainen, and Tenser are not deific nor are they simply powerful characters. They are something else...Epic to use a game term.
To calrify, consider them as plot machines for the setting. They need to be able to act on a level above the PCs so that intervention by the PCs has little if any effect on their plans. UNTIL a certain point where the PCs must be taken into consideration if they have managed to stay around long enough.
I prefer to use game rules rather than breaking the game or acting outside the rules to explain NPC actions. I hated it when my DM would answer questions as to how exactly an NPC accomplished some seemingly impossible task by saying he or she has access to powers and abilities beyond the norm.
I do not care what Living Greyhawk does. It is my campaign and they are a resource nothing more.;)
As far as NPCs leaving the world such as Zagig and crew, that is an interesting and reasonable explanation, but what about Iuz? Could Epic characters or NPCs be the answer to the problem Iuz poses without violating the non-intervention pact the gods of Greyhawk agreed to? Has Iuz's meddling and powergrab caused the gods to allow mortals to gain power previously unheard of as means to challenge him?
Consider that if Iuz has his way he will be a god-king and ALL of the other deities will lose many or most of their worshippers and thus their power. Sounds like a reason for some Epic level interaction. Think about the Rain of Colourless Fire and the Invoked Devestation as Epic events. They did not "break" the campaign, they shaped it. It simply gives the DM a framework to go by for future reference and ideas.
Please pardon my spelling mistakes, I'm at work and don't have my notes to consult...
I. Mordenkainen
2. Eclavdra
3. Rary
4. Lord Robolair
5. Sevord Redbeard (ruler of Stonehold)
6. The Father of Obedience (Scarlet Brotherhood)
7. Gwydisen of the Cranes (See Ivid the Undying)
8. Jaran Krimea (the Black Mace of the Vale)
9. The Arch-Priestess of Sehine Moonbow (Ruler of Lendor Isles)
10. Xaene the Accursed (former Court Wizard to Ivid V)
11. The Cat Lord (aka: The Shadowthief)
12. Alaric (Master of the Sepulchure on the Isle of Cursed Souls)
13. Turrosh Mak (I do -NOT- subscribe to the Wizards of the Coast write-up of this individual).
14. The Arch Druid of the Kabal
I'm don't go into the hero-gods or Quasi-deities overmuch as I don't want to over-populate the campaign with uber-characters. I try to keep it so that there ARE powerful beings, but not so much that you actually have a chance of meeting up with one (unless you run in very important circles indeed!).
Some monsters also run into "Epic" Levels of power (Giant Chieftains, the Death Knights of Old Aerdy, Acererack the Demi-Lich, or ANY lich of level 17 or higher, Kas the Terrible, ancient dragons, etc.) but I very seldome give them access to Epic Level Feats (Acererack and Kas would be noteable exceptions to this!).
Having these characters about can be fun, but only if they're not abused or made to brow-beat characters into doing what you the DM wishes. One thing they ARE good for is to keep arrogant characters in line, particularly those who believe they SHOULD run amok merely because they CAN.
- The issue of at long last dealing with entities like Iuz, Evard, Jaran Krimeeh, etc. It probably took an epic-level Kas to bring down a certainly epic-level Vecna.
- There are other, much more dangerous places to tread on other planes of existence where epic-level powers can be brought to bear without affecting the Prime Material Plane, Oerth or otherwise,
- The idea of epic-level activities largely unknown to the world, but done for its good. This can be said about most levels of play, but is particulalry well-suited for high and epic-level action.
- The use of epic-level NPCs to balance powerfully zealous PCs is a good theme if used with discretion by a thoughtful and fair DM.
- Epic-level NPCs are definitely good plot devices. They are mentors, hekpful allies, frustrating neutrals and deadly foes. Whatever, they are an anchor and gauge for the PCs as they grow.
Well, it looks like you guys have changed my mind about Epics. It obviously takes a good DM with a sober and thoughtful approach. Otherwise a good mess can result from unconsidered peic-level play. But I can see now that there is potential and use for such play if done in moderation and sobrieity. Cool, fellas. Thanks
So, does any have any stats for their campaign? Here are some of the ideas I have had for Tenser:
Wiz 23/Arch Mage 1/Fighter 1
He would use the High Arcana slot from the Arch Mage PrC for the
Spell Like Ability- Tenser's Transformation.
I justify the fighter level since it has been suggested his demeanor is more in line with that of a fighter, and since the old rules for dual or multi-classing made it unwise or unadvisable for him to take a level in another class.
FEATS:
Epic Spellcasting...to begin research on some of those Epic Spell Seeds.
Improved Spell Capacity (10th level) to use the above.
This is, of course, a work in progress. Remember, he has just returned from a rather harrowing experience. Any feedback or ideas are welcome.
doing Jag a friendly favor!:D
I'll have to go home and reference my notes, but I wouldn't mind sharing Epic NPC info here.
Mind you: none of these guys are written up totally, I just haven't the time to spell everything out for each and every one of these guys.
What I HAVE done is put together info on their most potent abilities and powers, and a level listing for each as well.
I imagine that if I ever really had to present them in a combat situation (unlikely), then I'd go all-out developing them. THAT would be fun!
Iggwilv: I actually consider her quasi-divine (just a step above epic) and no longer a serious mover-and-shaker on Oearth. I tried to limit my list to people that are actually on the planet. Not that Iggwilv doesn't visit, mind you!
1. Mordenkainen: Epic Level Handbook stats used
2. Eclavdra: Epic Level Handbook stats used
3. Rary: Living Greyhawk Journal stats used
4. Lord Robolair: Epic Level Handbook stats used
5. Sevord Redbeard (ruler of Stonehold): Fighter 10, Barbarian 12 Human Male (Flan)
6. The Father of Obedience (Scarlet Brotherhood): Monk 25, Human Male (Suel)
7. Gwydisen of the Cranes (See Ivid the Undying): Bard 30, Human Male, Child of Johydee
8. Jaran Krimea (the Black Mace of the Vale): Wizard 22, Male Shade
9. The Arch-Priestess of Sehine Moonbow (Ruler of Lendor Isles): Cle 25, Female
Gray elf
10. Xaene the Accursed (former Court Wizard to Ivid V): Wizard 24. Male two-headed lich. Disappeared with the fall of Rauxes
Personal Epic Level Spells:
1. Soul Shatter (Motes of pulsing red energy are summoned from the heart of the abyss and swirl around spellcaster until released upon unfortunate target. Target suffers moderate damage but suffers permanent constitution damage as the spell attacks its very life spark.)
2. Tapestry of Nightmares (Very similar to Weird spell, except range is that if affects any number of creatures, no two of which are more than 60 ft apart, damage taken on a successful save is 8d6 points of vile damage, stunned for 1 round, and subject also suffers 1d4 points of temporary Strength damage. All creature slain by spell are instantly animated as ju-ju zombies under Spellcaster’s control).
3. Entropy’s Embrace (A vile and horrid spell gleaned from the darkest Urr-Flan archives. This spell destroys a target utterly; in mind, body, and soul. So complete is this destruction that the target may not be returned to life: his soul has been utterly obliterated and nothing short of intervention of the very creators of the gods can restore the target to the multiverse. Target is allowed a Will Save avoid being obliterated. Save DC can be greatly enhanced through knowledge of targets True Name.)
4. Malefic Sphere: (Creates a 6’ diameter sphere of featurless light-eating black that follows the mental commands of the spellcaster. Sphere can move 90’ (perfect) each round and can make a single touch attack against an opponent. Opponents touched are affect with a Disintegrate spell (Save DC 20+Ability Bonus). Spellcaster can mentally command sphere as a free action each round.
11. The Cat Lord (aka: The Shadowthief): Epic Level Handbook
12. Altrek (Master of the Ebony Sepulcher on the Isle of Cursed Souls): Wizard 5, Cleric 5, Mystic Theuge 17, Urr-Flan, Male, 470 years old, takes a new body to inhabit every 60 year or so.
Personal Epic Level Spells:
1. Skullguard (the skulls of intelligent creatures of at least 10 hit dice that spellcaster personally slew are animated and float around spellcaster, absorbing physical and magical attacks until they are destroyed.
2. Soul **** (Horrific ritual that rips the soul out of a living body and allows you to put your soul in its place. The raped soul is trapped in a special gem that you can use as you will. Your old body is consumed in ebon flame upon the spell’s completion).
3. Storm of Corruption (A 500’ radius is covered with pitch black boiling clouds and is bombarded with bolts of unholy lightning and razor-sharp acidic hailstones. The spell culminates with the clouds coalescing and converging upon a single creature of spellcaster's choice, which it violates from all angles, forcing its way inside. Subject must make will save or be corrupted from within, having alignment changed to Neutral Evil and become slave of spellcaster).
4. Tendrils of Horrific Doom (A tendril of sickly green energy shoots from caster’s hand, splitting into 3-6 smaller tendrils and unerringly striking opponents, no two of which are more than 60’ distant. Beams inflict grievous vile damage while also draining constitution. Drained constitution grants spellcaster bonus hit points which can exceed his maximum).
13. Turrosh Mak (I do -NOT- subscribe to the Wizards of the Coast write-up of this individual): Barbarian 23 male 1/2 orc of legend, divine child of Gruumsh. Sent by Gruumsh to give his people a true leader. Gruumsh is not happy with how Iuz is dominating so many of his "children" and Turrosh Mak is his answer.
14. The Arch Druid of the Kabal: Druid 25, Male Wood Elf
Originally posted by bdpenney
13. Turrosh Mak (I do -NOT- subscribe to the Wizards of the Coast write-up of this individual): Barbarian 23 male 1/2 orc of legend, divine child of Gruumsh. Sent by Gruumsh to give his people a true leader. Gruumsh is not happy with how Iuz is dominating so many of his "children" and Turrosh Mak is his answer.
Hmm... I like the others, spells especially. Doesn't it bother you that Turrosh is a 1/2 Orc being the divine son of Gruumsh? I mean shouldn't he be an especially cunning and able Orc that others have mistaken for 1/2 Orc d/t his divine heritage? Just a thought. I will post a few of mine later, including Melf.
Originally posted by NoGoat
It was my understanding that the world of Greyhawk has no Epic characters (with the possible exception of Mordenkainen). The RPGA has a cap of level 16 after which all PCs must be retired. Only in higher magic settings like Faerun can mortals achieve Epic proportions (I guess)...........
Your understanding is wrong. Greyhawk predates both the Living Greyhawk Campaign and the RPGA, so few consider them the "final word" on Greyhawk.
Epic-level characters (outside of hero/quasi-deities) include Mordenkainen, Eclavdra, Rary, Robilar, Gwydisen of the Cranes, Philidor, Iggwilv (who may have achieved divinity by now--EGG considers her a demigoddess), Sevvord Redbeard, Rexfelis (who, as Lord of All Catkind, is more divine than epic), and some of the death knights.
Other candidates for epic level would be Cobb Darg, Nightsong, Korenth Zan, Jaran Kreemiah, Xayne, Tenser, Leomund, Reydrich, some of the Greater Boneheart, and many characters from Ivid the Undying.
Needless to say, I had him VERY active in this particular event.
By the way, I'd like to add Canon Hazen to my list of Epic Level characters. Human Male Cleric 26 of Rao. Sadly, his life is running out due to the sacrifice he had to make in using the Crook of Rao...
Tomorrow:
Tomorrow I will post my information on Xaene. I've compiled my notes about him and taken info out of the various adventures I've written using him.
It'll be a LONG post, as it contains his full history and a lot of stuff that happened after the Greyhawk Wars.
Oh, and he's pretty nasty (CR: 30), but that's isn't a surprise as he's a lich (+4 CR right off the bat).
Stay tuned, he'll be the fist of a list of epic personages I'll post.
Bryan
Wiz 10/Ranger 5/Eldritch Knight 5
I know this may seem non-sensical to some, but the Wiz 14/Ftr 4 of the LGG makes less sense to me. I see Melf as more of a Ranger than a straight fighter. I also see him really fusing his wizardly and warrior abilities in the fashion of the Eldritch Knight. It just makes more sense since he is an iconic elven fighter/mage.
Turrosh Mak
Ftr15/Rog5/Brb5
Again, this is a departure, and in this case one I'm still not happy with. I am not completely sold on the idea of a half-orc leading the humanoids of the Pomarj. That is if the half that isn't orc is human. If it were, say, fiendish or something else then maybe. He must get his cunning from somewhere. If he is not a divine miracle from Gruumsh (an idea I like more and more) then why are the orcs so willing to follow a half-blood?
[edit: I know that Melf and Turrosh are not Epic (since they have only 20 levels, but in my campaign I plan to modify them and develop them based on happenings in the world. This is thus their "default" value prior to PC or NPC intervention.]
I'll get to my reasoning about Turrosh Mak, he'll be the next fellow to be written up by yours truly. In any case, his case will be special indeed and much will be made clear about my reasoning.
I'm just getting my Xaene information proofed. I'll be posting it in a few hours. It'll have its own thread and you'll know it when you see it.
Again, this is a departure, and in this case one I'm still not happy with. I am not completely sold on the idea of a half-orc leading the humanoids of the Pomarj. That is if the half that isn't orc is human. If it were, say, fiendish or something else then maybe. He must get his cunning from somewhere. If he is not a divine miracle from Gruumsh (an idea I like more and more) then why are the orcs so willing to follow a half-blood?
The old might makes right saying comes to mind about this. Is it so unlikely to see a high level half-orc leading a coalition of not only orcs but also goblins, hobgoblins, bugbears, gnolls, etc.. ?
The Pomarj isn't just an orc nation. Besides, the only thing orcs respect is raw power.
Even if Turrosh Mak was a full-blooded orc, other orcs would still despise him for being stronger than they are. It's just their way of life. As long as he is the strongest and the fittest, he'll lead them. No need to give him fiendish or divine blood for that, at least IMHO.
Originally posted by Mortepierre
The old might makes right saying comes to mind about this. Is it so unlikely to see a high level half-orc leading a coalition of not only orcs but also goblins, hobgoblins, bugbears, gnolls, etc.. ?
Yes, but....I am still not convinced that a humanoid nation would follow a warlord, no matter what his strength and personal power, for (and this is important) as long as they have Turrosh.
Sure, a warlord may arise and draw a mighty horde to him for some fun **** and pillage, but at the end of the month they all go home. Turrosh has ruled for too long and developed too many political plans for it to be a simple matter of might makes right. Remember orcs have a tendency to grow restless when not in battle. How is he keeping his power when there is relative peace?
In short, whenever TM runs into stronger opposition than his forces can overrun, he changes target. That keeps the rabble occupied (if only by force-marching them a few dozen miles every time).
Plus, methink he keeps them busy by playing over clan rivalry. "Divide and conquer" must be his motto. As long as his minions are worried about who is the favored clan of the month, they aren't thinking about how to betray him.
Granted, that's a pretty dangerous game but TM has displayed incredible cunning so far. If anyone can pull it off, it's him.
Not to mention the unifying influence the cult of the Earth Dragon can have (if you go along with that particular story plot...)
Originally posted by Jag Arin
As I was thumbing thru the ELHB and reading over the stats for Eclavdra, Mordy, and Robilar (why Robilar?)
Geez, off the top of my head:
1. He was the first character to make it to the bottom level of Gygax's Castle Greyhawk and "fall through" to China.
2. He survived an adventure in the City of the Gods w/ Mordenkanen. (This is detailed in an OJ, don't remember which one).
3. He Freed Iuz from Castle Greyhawk.
4. He Freed Zuggtmoy from the Temple of Elemental Evil.
When comparing his known exploits to the other famous NPC's of Greyhawk, his have more effect on the campaign world that any of the others, IMO. If he's not epic level, I don't know who would be.
I just wanted more pages devoted to Greyhawk stuff (guess I'm jealous of those FR goons) to draw people in. Everyone has read about Melf's Acid Arrow or Tenser's Floating Disk, let them see the mages behind the spells. :D
Contained therein:
History of the Pomarj (background, why things became the way they are).
History of Turrosh (ancestors, personal origin).
Events leading to his ascendence (how he became Depot Mak).
His involvement in the Greyhawk Wars.
Postwar doings and ambitions.
There is also gonna be an oodle of references to his servitors and allies (Grey Render War Hulk 10 bodyguard and siege engine, etc).
Hopefully it'll be done this week. I've got the creative spark, so we'll see. It it comes in under 15 pages I'll be shocked.
Later all!
-wn
EDIT: Oh yeah, the story of Robilar and the City of the Gods is in OJ #6. I only know that because I'm reading through it right now. Fun stuff!
Smartarse! :P
Anyway, I'm just havin' fun! Since my creative juices are flowing I may as well put them to good use!
*Ponders*
Pitty Wizards of the Coast isn't looking for someone to do some novels, I could easily turn what I've got into a much more far-reaching version of Scourge of the Slave Lords.
Ah well, it'll be for us privilaged few to enjoy!
On a side note, this is all stuff I've been jotting notes on for years. Its actually rather fun to put it into print. It solodifies my personal Greyhawk campaign history and adds some real "guts" to the people who are behind the wheels of the world...