|#1CyrianFeb 16, 2004 2:20:17||Check it:|
Seems like a quarter-giant to me...
|#2KamelionFeb 16, 2004 2:37:19||That's an interesting race write-up but it hardly captures the DS half-giant very well.|
(Male names: Raam? Female Names: Nibenay?)
|#3zombiegleemaxFeb 16, 2004 7:04:19||Yeah, that was pretty stinky.|
Oh, well. The hopes that I had for the "official" conversion (the one in Dragon and Dungeon magazines) that is being sent to press in a month or so got sunk.
|#4flipFeb 16, 2004 8:53:23|
Originally posted by Cyrian
Well, I see that WotC solution to the balance problems that the HG presents was simply to handwave them out of existance. Well, at least WotC has the advantage that consistancy is not a requirement.
... I had been thinking that we were just going to adopt the PsiHB version of the Half-giant when said book came out. That doesn't look very likely now.
|#5nightdruidFeb 16, 2004 10:07:37|
Originally posted by Cyrian
Think you give it too much credit...looks like a healthy half-orc.
|#6xlorepdarkhelm_dupFeb 16, 2004 12:43:52||Wow those suck. I think I'll still use the official athas.org HG's, thank-you very much.|
|#7DragonhelmFeb 16, 2004 13:18:05||I'm disappointed that the half-giant's alignment (one axis fixed, the other rotating) got dropped. That can be role-played at least, but still - that was one of the defining parts of the race.|
|#8Shei-NadFeb 16, 2004 13:41:46||1/4 giant from another psionic dimension is more likely... Ridiculous, and highly dissapointing...|
I feel like analysing this further:
- Ridiculously low strength adjustment, makes me wonder what muls will be like (Just as strong or stronger than half-giants???)
- No Int or Cha penalty, which means that half-giants are now perfect diplomats who can carry a conversation with any sorcerer kings...
- Medium Size. No further comments.
- Giant Type: Medium size Half-giants are giants? And they are also immune to about half the mind-affecting effects, but since there no longer dim witted, why not?
- Fire Acclimated: Will all athasian races and creatures have this? Seems sort of ridiculous, and [fire] effects are not even the same as heat danger, so they are just as susceptible to high temperatures. Come on...
- Powerfully Built: Indeed, though the stats don't show it...
- Naturally psionic: Again, all athasian races will have this?
- Psi-like ability: ??? Are wild talents determined by race now? kind of weird. Will all races have something like this? I can't help but notice the Psi-like tag though. Seems athas would use a Psionics are Different approach to psionics. I like that. Not the psi-like ability of the HG, but psi-like abilities themselves.
- Languages: Draconic??? GNOLL??? what the hell???
- Favored class: Psychic Warrior. Ah yes, on athas all races will now be psychic warriors, since people fight and have psionics, so it makes lots of sense... I can already see Hamanu and his legions of psychic warrior Half-giants... Anyways...
- Level adjustment: Hey, there's actually one thing thats ok about this writeup
- No axis alignement ability. I can live with that, but still...
Man... I liked the defiler system presented earlier (though even that had to be twinked to make it balanced (which it wasn't at all)), but this wholeheartedly sucks!!! And to think I was halting my conversion until I saw what was coming up. I think I'll go back to my work and not bring my hopes to high up...
Anyways... I know there was something else I wanted to say... oh yeah:
Half-Ogres! Come on! WotC released an official Half-Ogre race in Savage Species. Even without twinking, that race is twice as good as this one for the half-giant of Dark Sun!!!
Anyways, while I may not agree with several things which athas.org have done with the conversion of athas, but I'll take their HG any day over that one! Don't even think of changing it, guys!
|#9nytcrawlrFeb 16, 2004 15:24:03||Ok, I guess WotC doesn't like consistency at all since the Half Ogre from SS is a LA+1 and makes this thing look like a somewhat more healthy half orc like Nightdruid says.|
I'll stick to athas.org's version thanks, sheesh.
Anything to make a buck and to allow things from other worlds they still have license for allowable in other worlds.
|#10zombiegleemaxFeb 16, 2004 15:25:32||I agree 100%. This conversion is horrible. They have practically made a brand new race. I understand that they're including this in the psionics handbook for ALL campaign settings, but what is so wrong with using the half-giant from Dark Sun in that sense?|
They have gone against so many of their own rulings and practices with this one preview that it disgusts me.
BTW, Athas.org team, keep those rules coming! I love everything you've done in Dark Sun 3.5 so far and can't wait to see the monster conversions and prestige classes.
|#11zombiegleemaxFeb 16, 2004 15:39:33|
I agree 100%. This conversion is horrible.
From what I'm reading (not just the specific half-giant excerpt), this isn't intended as a recreation of the Dark Sun half-giant anyhow. The references to sorceror-kings in the description merely alludes to a semi-detailed but easily insertable background to be used in a generic setting like FR, GH, or DL. Stats aside, the description gives the height at 7-8 feet and a weight of 400 lbs. That's about 2 feet shy and 1/3rd the weight of the half-gaints I use. I'd be far more inclined to let a player use one of these in say, a Dragonlance game as opposed to a strict DS converted half-giant, which is probably what the intention here is (hence the language references).
Don't misinterperate the intention of something. This is a preview coming from the revised Psi Handbook, not a preview of Mr. Noonan's impending articles. The PsiH, even if it has other vague DS references, is probably going to keep those references trimmed up for use in more generic settings than DS.
All in all, its really not that bad in context. Its not overpowering, only +1 LA. I'd certainly chalk it onto the list of races that I'd let into a possible Planescape campaign coming up (I'm trying to keep a good variety of options, but I'm avoiding anything over +2 LA). I'd rather rename them a little and make them descended from fire giants, with another type utilizing cold abilities descending from the frost giants.
|#12GrummoreFeb 16, 2004 15:44:45||I agree with Mach here that it's an interesting race to use in a planescape campaign (I dont know about the other settings).|
But having tied the name Half-giant to this race, it's truly pathetic. They arent consistent with what they made in the second edition, in the darksun setting. We all know it's the only place it appeared first, in the DS setting.
The image of it is horrible(period) The stats, for DS, are pathetic and FAR from the athasian concept of a half-giant.
Seriously, I am outraged.
|#13Shei-NadFeb 16, 2004 16:36:15||Of course, out of an athasian context, this can work, but I sure hope that this will not be what Dragon and Dungeon had in mind...|
And I fail to see the logic between making the half-ogre a hulking Large creature with +6 Str and reduced Int and Cha, but the half-giant a +2 Str medium sized creature...
|#14nightdruidFeb 16, 2004 16:36:58|
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Half *orc*...half-ogre would bend these guys over its knee and give them a spanking
Reading the conversion further, this really does not fit *any* concept of a half-giant, athas or otherwise. This is more like a conversion for Paul White (aka the Giant/Big Show of WWF fame), with some psionic abilities. A new race of big guys, but hardly what I'd consider half giant
|#15Shei-NadFeb 16, 2004 16:40:05|
Originally posted by Nightdruid
:D LOL :D
|#16nytcrawlrFeb 16, 2004 16:46:33|
Originally posted by Nightdruid
I cleaned up one typo and created another in doing so, heh.
|#17DragonhelmFeb 16, 2004 16:52:01|
Originally posted by Mach2.5
I want to second this. It is entirely possible that this version is designed for more generic games, and that a DS-specific version may be in the works for upcoming products.
|#18nightdruidFeb 16, 2004 17:15:52|
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
No biggie, figured it was a typo Just couldn't resist the "half ogre giving the half-giant a spanking" comment
|#19nightdruidFeb 16, 2004 18:40:48|
Originally posted by Shei-Nad
Hmmmm....with a little tweeking, you could replace that stomp (i see someone played too much WC III) ability with a choke slam ;)
|#20zombiegleemaxFeb 16, 2004 21:48:18|
Of course, out of an athasian context, this can work, but I sure hope that this will not be what Dragon and Dungeon had in mind...
Since this is a preview of the PsiH, I don't see why it would tie into Noonan's Dragon Magazine conversion at all, unless of course, not only is the DS conversion going to be in Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron Mags, but it will also be spread out over some odd number of core books as well!?!?! Reality check in progress here . . . its not a Dark Sun converted half-giant.
Don't mean to sound harsh here, but jumping the gun like that just really gets me miffed off. Makes me want to stab someone in the face.
*wipes off knife*
Ahhh . . . much better
Anyhow, I'm not sure about the reason for making a half-giant weaker in general nature than the already published half-ogre, except that half-ogres are the product of actual breeding while the half-giant is the product of magical experiments (hence why I like the 'quarter-giant' comment so much). Breeding nets you a 50/50 split with the genetics, but with a magically altered creation, its more up to the whims of the creator as to how much 'parent' material comes from each line.
|#21nytcrawlrFeb 16, 2004 22:06:41||I don't take this as Noonan's work either, I expect much better from him since he is a DS fan.|
But damn, they could had done a better job on this, let alone at least stay consistent.
Boo to WotC, boo.
P.S. Quite a few peeps on the psi boards hate this thing too.
|#22jaanosFeb 17, 2004 0:56:56||That really sucks hard. This is the problem i have with most 3/3.5 conversions: they stray to far from the original, and loose the dark sun flavour. |
This 'half-giant' is a perfect example.
If you keep things as close to the original 2e version, it's all good - 'game balance' be damned, any DM worth his salt can balance a game, you don't need fuddy-duddy half giants like this to do it!
|#23GrummoreFeb 17, 2004 8:49:57||One of the major concern about all this should be about the differents types of half-giants that will be around in all the d&d settings.|
Is there two differents types of humans, orcs, dwarf, etc. etc. etc. no. When someone will talk about a half-giant, nobody will know if it's from darksun (the real and only one good conversion of the half-giant, since it originate from THIS setting), planescape or FR... Two or 3 types or HG; one excellent (athas.org), one horrible (wotc) and probably a couples of other ones that will appear after to modify that WotC horrible conversion.
|#24zombiegleemaxFeb 17, 2004 20:46:26|
Is there two differents types of humans, orcs, dwarf, etc. etc. etc. no.
Ummm . . . yes there is. Elves are different in almost any setting, so are dwarves, orcs, etc. The only setting that has a stock and standard racial list is GH. Otherwise, yes, all settings have racial variety.
since it originate from THIS setting
Wrong again. I recall more than one old adventure (basic D&D, and no, I'm not scrounging through two large boxes of old books to find it) that had half-giants in them, presented of course as NPCs/monsters, but yet they were obviously out long before DS was a twinkle in Troy's eye. Not that I think the DS half-giant is in any way based on those old instances, in the same way that the PsiH half-giant not really based off DS.
|#25xlorepdarkhelm_dupFeb 17, 2004 20:59:15||The problem is the claim that the Half Giants come from the same world that the Thri-Kreen do.... That could be made out as coming from Dark Sun.|
|#26zombiegleemaxFeb 28, 2004 19:55:36||Does anybody have the email of the idiot that wrote up that Race Description???|
They sure alluded to it being for D.S. so I have a sinking feeling that this is what they had in mind.
We'd be better off without any support from WOTC.
|#27zombiegleemaxFeb 29, 2004 0:30:25||I'm still have doubts that this half-giant is going to be in the Dark Sun conversion comming in Dragon magazine. I could be wrong, but I would much rather play a game of wait and see rather than jump the gun and get shot down.|
|#28player1Feb 29, 2004 8:32:36||I must say that 3.5 psihb 1/2giant has an intersting design as some sort of large medium race (still medim, no reach, can use large wepons), similar in way as dwarves are small meduim race (4ft medium race).|
But, anyway, I just see them as psionicly touched version of athasian 1/2giant, in same way as Blues are psionicly touched version of goblins.
That made then smarter, a little bit weaker and smaller, but that doesn't mean that they are not related to athasian 1/2giants (as hinted in their desciption).
As for me, I would really not mind if athasian version of 1/2giant is made slightly more similar to this one (while keeping some things like higher strenght and extra HD).
|#29OtakkunFeb 29, 2004 9:29:45||It seems that some rules for playing high LA characters at low levels are going to arrive soon.|
Anyway, HGs should be large creatures. As large creatures they should have at least 2 racial hit dice, and with some extra penalties, maybe a single LA +1 is enough.
I've been working a bit on it too, and my draft is mostly like the one you guys came up with.
|#30player1Feb 29, 2004 10:19:45||What is the difference between athasian and psihb 1/2giant?|
This one is weaker and smaller:
-medium sized, but with Powerful Buid to compensate
-lower Str and Con, no extra HD or natural armor.
It's considerably smarter (no penalities for Int, Wis and Cha).
Has Low light vision, instead of Darkvision.
Has +2 bonus on saves against all fire spells.
No axis alignment.
As far as I can see, from design point, only drastic difference is in size. PsiHB 1/2giant is big medium race, while athasian one is pure large race.
Also, I need to note that it's a powerful +1ECL race. You can weild large weapons and have decent stats. Sounds more like a big dwarf (as Mul?)
Now, let's see...
What if athasian one is made to be also a big medium race, instead of large?
Could it be derived from PsiHB version, if we consider a PsiHB version, a blueish version of halfgiant?
It should have higher Str, at least +6 to beat Mul (and Orcs ;) ).
That could be compensated with lower metal stats.
For example, for total of Str +6, Dex -2, Con +2, Int -4, Wis -2, Cha -2
Toughness feat as free bonus feat.
No psionics, axis alignment added, +1ECL.
Compared to current athas.org conversion, it will have slightly lower Str and Con, and slightly higher mentals, will not have reach and 40ft movement and no extra HD (but Toughness for free).
Compared to Mul (other +1ECL race), 1/2 giant will be dumber and slower (Dex -2, Int -4, Wis -2), and slightly stronger (Str +6), but with larger weapons (powerful build).
It will be more similar to PsiHB version, with difference no bigger then between different generations of Dray (more strenght, less brains, Toughness instead of psionics). Who knows, maybe PsiHB 1/2giant is some unknown generation of athasian 1/2giants???
Now let's write it nicely:
Athasian Half-Giant Racial Traits
+6 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity, -4 Intelligence, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma: Half-giants are renowned for their great strength and dull wits.
Giant: Half-giants are not subject to spells or effects that affect only humanoids, such as charm person or dominate person.
Medium: As Medium creatures, half-giants have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Half-giant base land speed is 30 feet.
Low-Light Vision: A half-giant can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. He retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
Fire Acclimated: Half-giants receive a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against all fire spells and effects. Half-giants are used to enduring high temperature extremes.
Powerful Build: The physical stature of half-giants lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger. Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the half-giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. A half-giant is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature's special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject's size category.
Toughness: Half-giants gain Toughness feat for free as bonus feat.
Automatic Language: Common. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Gith, Giant, Tarek.
Favored Class: Brute.
Level Adjustment: +1.
I think that this could capture a flavor of athasian half-giant.
What do you think?
|#31nytcrawlrFeb 29, 2004 10:58:44|
Originally posted by player1
Bah, I like the athasian HG as is.
Course I plan on upping the Str to +10 and the Con to +6, but other than that it's fine as is.
|#32player1Feb 29, 2004 11:03:26||Well, it was a variant after all (based to complement the one from 3.5 PsiHB).|
|#33nytcrawlrFeb 29, 2004 11:10:17||It's nice to use in addition to, but not as a replacement IMO.|
HG should not be some wussy watered down race, IMO.
|#34zombiegleemaxFeb 29, 2004 11:32:01||Regardless of everything else..... She sure is a looker.|
|#35player1Feb 29, 2004 13:33:17|
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Well, actually it's not a wussy.
The version I posted is also probaby a CR 1 creature in same way as athas.org 1/2giant (for 1st level warrior).
|#36OtakkunFeb 29, 2004 15:47:58||Ehmm... to mr it seems 'a bit' overpowered.|
|#37zombiegleemaxMar 01, 2004 19:03:03||Even the Athasian HG from athas.org is a little underpowered. Half giants are natually more powerful than humans.|
The 2nd edition of half giant was pretty powerful having double hit dice and a strength of up to 24 and being 10-12ft tall
The 3e Half-giant should be about as powerful as a a Hill giant which is 10 ft tall and should have the following stats. Str +10 Con +6, Dex -2, Int -4, Chr -4, Wis -4 and 3d8 hit points at a minimum
ECL should be somewhere around + 4( hey nobody said life on athas was fair!)
|#38nytcrawlrMar 01, 2004 19:19:05|
Originally posted by Anorien Ssirinthil
Not sure they should be ECL +4, but the rest I agree with, though I would probably leave them at 2 HD and give them a toughness feat for free or something that acted similar to it.
If anything TK need to be ECL +4.
|#39jaanosMar 02, 2004 2:15:25||Maybe this is the key problem:|
WOTC obsession with 'balance' in player races (and everything else)
I mean, look what happened to defilers in the 2e to 3e conversion, same thing is happening to half giants.
It's like this:
The Athasian flavour was... beefier PC's, tougher NPC's and generally more powerful than all other campaing settings. That's Darksun.
3rd Edition D&D Flavour is... balance, refinement, the concept of an even playing field... everyone starts the same. That's the new D&D.
The two don't mix. Athas.org have done a great job converting Darksun to 3e, but in the process, through no fault of thier own, the flavour has been lost because of the 'balance kings' (cousins of the canon lords) so yeah, sucky half-giants is what we'll probably get for a while...
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
|#40elonarcMar 02, 2004 2:26:06||I see it the same way, though I am quite happy with the athas.org Half-Giant.|
But I sometimes wish they would be a bit open-minded about higher stats (a possibility which is mentioned in the Core Rulebook 2!!!).
Though world - higher stats…that's balance IMHO.
|#41jaanosMar 02, 2004 2:30:24||Yeah, i agree - i see nothing wrong at all with world-wide high attributes. Just can't take that character into a non-darksun campaing. works for me.|
|#42KamelionMar 02, 2004 4:14:21|
If anything TK need to be ECL +4.
Keep wondering about this myself. There's a kreen Ftr2/Mnk2 in my game who is already a horrible, horrible killing machine and he's only ecl 7...
Don't see the point of super-high stats, myself, unless you're into doing lots of crossovers. So long as it's balanced relative to the rest of the DS game world it doesn't matter how your stats compare to other settings, high or low.
|#43xlorepdarkhelm_dupMar 02, 2004 4:25:04|
Originally posted by Kamelion
Is he using the Monk's unarmed attack modifiers? If so, bear in mind - monks only use 1 hand in gamesystem mechanics for their attacks. Offhand(s) don't count, especially with things like flurry of blows. (multi-weapon fighting doesn't stack with flurry of blows). If he's using weapons, however.... yea, Kreen can be pretty deadly. My suggestion is pit him against spellcasters or ranged attackers. Exploit the LA to your advantage as a DM. I guarentee that he won't be able to deflect arrows from a squad (6 - 12) of elven archers.
|#44elonarcMar 02, 2004 4:33:43||In another thread there was already the discussion about the monk in Dark Sun in general and specifically thri-kreen monks (chaotic nature vs lawful class). But they are OK as long you remember the thing xlorep pointed out…|
|#45KamelionMar 02, 2004 5:33:06|
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Or avoid sneak attacks from halfing fighter rogues hiding in the sand and then stabbing you in the bum with multiple times with their two steel shortswords. That worked pretty sweet last Sunday
He alternates between natural weapons and kreen monk weapons (same stats, different cosmetics). It's ugly but it's ok so long as it's relative to the other characters. I'm tending to think that another +1 LA might be worth trying.