|#1zombiegleemaxFeb 18, 2004 17:27:06||ok, i am aware of his power and the fact that his soul, or essence travels the post cataclysmic world. i know that raistlin made a deal with his soul in exchange for power, and that the book raistlin of fistandatalius was also imbued with his soul, see the 3rd in the istar series. what i am unclear about is whether or not at the end of the chronicles trilogy ad the legends trilogy has raistlin taken control of F's soul, or is it vise-a-versa. both raistlin and F had the urge to defeat the queen of darkness and take her place. and i know raistlin absorbes F's life force back in pre-cataclysmic istar, or was that F absorbing his own life force? if anyone has any insight into this, or ideas, just let me know.|
|#2Charles_PhippsFeb 18, 2004 20:23:45||Raistlin defeated Fist and absorbed all of his knowledge. It was questionable who was doing what but the authors have since clariffied it was all Raistlin in the end|
|#3zombiegleemaxFeb 18, 2004 21:28:03||Obviously, when you read the 'original' timeline of things, particulary the KingPriest Trilogy, it is going to be all Fistanditilus, but yes, in the end it was all Raistlin in the end. |
What I am not totally sure about, is if Time cannot be changed unless the precense of a Kender or Gnome or Dwarf, then how did Raistlin avoid that partiuclar 'time trap'? It is feasible that other apprentices might have tried to 'get Fistandantilus' power before, and thus would have all met the same fate.
How did Raistlin 'change time' to begin with and take over as Fistandantillus?
|#4darthsylverFeb 18, 2004 22:09:40||Not sure but this is my take.|
Raist had a piece of fisty in him from his test at the tower. When he goes back this piece allows him to absorb the rest of fisty. in essence taking back what already belonged to (the piece in him) him.
|#5zombiegleemaxFeb 18, 2004 22:30:59|
Originally posted by DmJoeSolarte
Alright...you see, it's not that the past cannot be changed, it's that the past cannot be *CHANGED*, except by a Greystone race. You see, Raistlin might have absorbed Fisty...but afterwords, he could only do what Fist would have done. I mean, he could do his own htings, but in the end, it was the same as what Fist did.
|#6zombiegleemaxFeb 18, 2004 23:31:23||Ok, that makes sense, I suppose|
|#7jonesyFeb 19, 2004 4:44:03|
Originally posted by DmJoeSolarte
Well he didn't exactly. Everything happened exactly the same way it had happened to Fist in the earlier version of the timestream up to the moment in Zhaman.
But then Tasslehoff (a kender) and Caramon disrupted the timestream by activating the timetravel trinket.
Edit: or it might be more accurate to say that everything that would have affected the world in a large scale (or had a lasting effect on the timestream) happened the same way. Obviously minor things were different (like Raist ransacking Fist's laboratory). ;)
|#8zombiegleemaxFeb 19, 2004 9:47:14||I always saw the whole battle between the two as more of a merger than an absorption.|
Raistlin gets all of Fisty's memories, his knowlegde and power, but his body is also slightly changed. (caramon mentions this). So I see it more as a merger, where the outcomming product takes the shape of raistlin.
|#9zombiegleemaxFeb 19, 2004 10:00:47||i believe that jacen is right, raistlin did fall into the time trap, until the battle outside of Throbardin when Zhaman exploded, remember, he saw Tass and took a knife and almost died. i believe that fisty "died", or lost his physical form, when zhaman went, but that raist was able to hold it together long enough to get into the abyss. i don't believe fist ever made it to the dark queen, or had his soul saved by paladine, as raistlin did.|
|#10jonesyFeb 19, 2004 10:03:48|
Originally posted by Voiceman
Except the physical change wasn't permanent. His body was different only while he was in the space in time that Fist had previously occupied. After Zhaman Raist's body reverted back to the way it had been originally.
|#11brimstoneFeb 19, 2004 14:03:30||Okay...I know I've talked about this before...but I'll mention it here again.|
According to the Appendix to the Annotated Legends, Tas does not change the past.
To avoid a paradox...I believe that it is impossible in the Dragonlance world to change the past...even for the Greygem races.
Now, what the Greygem races CAN do is change the future by effecting the present. This can be seen in War of Souls. The Greygem races can jump forward to any of the possible branches the River of Time may take...and by doing so, they can travel back to their present to effect the flow of the River of Time.
This is exactly what happened in Test of the Twins. Tas and Caramon did not change the past, they didn't help Raistlin get into the Abyss. Fisty got into the Abyss the "first" time also...but historians thought he was destroyed by the blast...only because Fisty did not re-appear until a future time, past the "present" of the current story (for ease we'll say two years past Legends).
So...Tas and Caramon traveled to far into the future, past their present time...which is important. Because in order to avoid a paradox, the river of time MUST reach the point it is at when you first travel back in time...effectively making effecting the past, impossible, Greygem race or not. But once you go forward of that point...you are no longer effecting what is...you are effecting what might be.
Now, they say that non-Chaos touched races cannot effect time, period. This says to me (and it appears this is Tracy's view point as well) that there is an "optimum" timeline. This timeline cannot be altered by time travel...unless it's by a Greygem race. Case in point: Tas and Caramon travel to 355 AC and see the future of the optimum timeline...effectively seeing the end of Days (according to Astinus). But...since Tas is along, they know that they can travel back to 353 with the knowledge of what is to come...and an idea of how to stop it. Caramon can't do this...it takes a creature touched by Chaos to rip the "optimum timeline" from it's banks and redirect it...so to speak.
To stop the future...Caramon convinces Raistlin of what's to come...and that he must sacrifice himself to save the world...and himself from eternal oblivion. Caramon made it to the Abyss because they flew the Flying Citadel over the Grove and into the tower. Tanis saved Caramon's life in the citadel. Cymbol (or some other dragon...can't remember which one) got Caramon and Tanis to the Citadel. Tanis and the dragon only lived because Tas stole Tanis' bracelet from him that he was going to use to fight Lord Soth.
So see...the future was changed with that one act of theivery.
I Know this is all kind of confusing (it's much easier to explain with figures). But if you get a chance...just check out the Appendix to that book (even if you're not going to buy it)...it really helps to clear things up...especially time travel in the DL Universe.
|#12brimstoneFeb 19, 2004 14:06:44|
Originally posted by jonesy
Yeah, I think this should be proof that the "real" Fistandantilus died in the years prior to the Cataclysm.
All the time, Raistlin was reading stories about himself. He was compelled to travel back in time and battle the Dark Queen because he'd read about himself. But, because after he killed Fistandantilus he took on his physical form, no one knew (historians, mages, common folk alike) that he was not Fistandantilus. Even Caramon started calling him that.
I've really come to enjoy Legends alot more these days...now that I feel I understand it better.
|#13quentingeorgeFeb 20, 2004 0:17:05||I know I'm going to sound like a heretic...but|
I actually prefer the character of Fistandantilus to Raistlin, especially after reading the Kingpriest trilogy.
Anyone else this way or am I craaaazy?
|#14brimstoneFeb 20, 2004 10:51:22||EDIT: Retracted 'cause I'm a friggin' idiot.|
|#15talinthasFeb 20, 2004 11:06:47||don't wanna give away the ending, but you should really finish the book before making statements like that, brim =)|
|#16brimstoneFeb 20, 2004 12:02:19|
Originally posted by talinthas
Damn...that's what I was afraid of as soon as I said it.
Wasn't it a couple years before the Cataclysm that Raistlin went back to? I was it closer to the Cataclysm than that? I mean...what year was the battle between them?
|#17Charles_PhippsFeb 20, 2004 12:58:41||[Anyone else this way or am I craaaazy?]|
I can't say I actually care for Fisty's character really. Even less than the Emperor there doesn't seem to be anything redeeming or valuable about the character of Fisty. He just bullies way and scares people to completing his plans.
Ooooo it came off perfectly, good for you ya freak