1) Are there going to be 5 or 6 gazetteers? (After finshing the second, I believe she says something about her first year just ending on the project and estimating another two to go)
2) Are there any plans for the Islands and Clusters to be detailed? (I don't personally know how Azalin's thrall would accomplish that, but hoping none-the-less)
Thanks for the info!
So, yeah, there will be Gazetteers on the Clusters and Islands, eventually.
Originally posted by Lucifer_Abaddon_RL
The developers themselves had said that probably the metaplot will change...
Yes, the way they're controlling Ravenloft at the moment, S will become a man with an Uzi and the Gazs will become "this is what you can kill here."
Originally posted by John W. Mangrum
The Kargatane's plan called for 13 gazetteers. Unfortunately, we only found out that the developers didn't know what that metaplot was this past GenCon. So. the metaplot that's been developing the past two years unofficially ends midsteam in Gaz V, replaced by whatever the developers cook up.
And the hits keep on coming.....I was really hoping to see what the metaplot was and what would have come about because of it. Nevertheless, if the quality of products still continues on the same course it is now, I'm a guaranteed buyer.
Originally posted by Palin_IV
Quick question John is there any reason to assume they'll abandon the metaplot?
It's a long story that's not worth going into, but all the developers know about the metaplot is what I told them verbally one evening at this past GenCon. Thus, reason to believe it'll change.
Why, why couldn't the Kargatane be the RL line developers?
WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY??????!!!!!!!
End useless rant
Nope.
For that matter, did the world end when Hazlan went in a direction that neither of his actual creators had ever considered?
Nope.
I'm getting really, REALLY tired of this hero worship, as much as I like John and the rest of Kargatane... and as much as I liked the work they did. Bu t that could be because I saw the same sort of stupid crap when I was working on Dragonlance.
"Oh no... someone I think I like and know has been popping off online, therefore I've got to hate everything that is going to be done on the line they now have problems with. I won't give any of the stuff a chance, but I hate it now."
Tell you what: Just because I love you all so much, I'm going to take a few hours this weekend and generate both some proposals for a future metaplot for the GAZ series AND give the developers my long-promised notes on the Gentleman Caller. Whatever decisions are made, they won't really matter, as it appears a bunch of whiners on this board won't be picking up the books anyway, so as a further expression of my love, I'm going to pretty much ignore everything I knew about the intended metaplot.
I'm getting really, REALLY tired of this hero worship, as much as I like John and the rest of Kargatane... and as much as I liked the work they did. Bu t that could be because I saw the same sort of stupid crap when I was working on Dragonlance.
This is indeed childish.
Come on guys, we might have reasons to be worrying, but we have to give 'em a chance. The K are gone for now, true. I was as flibberghasted as the others. But some of the 'old' authors are still there / have proven to produce very good to excellent.
We'll keep our eyes open, but not closed !
Joël
However, in the wake of the JWM/Jim Lowder ketchup-burst that so messily splattered here a while back, I *am* kind of worried about what seems to be a lack of communication between developers, which could in the long run be a lot harder on how the upcoming works unfold.
Originally posted by Brandi
FWIW, Steve, while I like a lot of what the K did with Ravenloft, I'm far from assuming like Drinnik did that this can only end in disaster.
However, in the wake of the JWM/Jim Lowder ketchup-burst that so messily splattered here a while back, I *am* kind of worried about what seems to be a lack of communication between developers, which could in the long run be a lot harder on how the upcoming works unfold.
"Ketchup-burst"... I like that. I'll have to use it.
And it's too early to say whether it will end in disaster. I'd say "signs point to no," as Ravenloft has only gotten better from every other shake-up of creative talent working on the line in the past.
I'd further like to point out that if steve was a thinner skinned guy he probably won't show up because it's pretty easy to give off the impression that he's obviously incompetent or something the way some people go on around here.
Originally posted by Brandi
FWIW, Steve, while I like a lot of what the K did with Ravenloft, I'm far from assuming like Drinnik did that this can only end in disaster.
However, in the wake of the JWM/Jim Lowder ketchup-burst that so messily splattered here a while back, I *am* kind of worried about what seems to be a lack of communication between developers, which could in the long run be a lot harder on how the upcoming works unfold.
It's not the departure of the K that bother me, it's the quality of the books. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Never let Tad McDivvit near a Ravenloft source book again. The quality of the books that the K wrote are superior in content and flavour than the ones that they did not write, it's a simple fact.
You let someone like McDivvit loose on the world and we might as well be playing the Realms with Dracula in it.
Give it a chance. He may have learnt something.
Honestly, I will give a chance for upcoming products (even having to face the difficulty that is finding RAvenloft most recent books here in Brazil. For two months I´m hearing this from my local store
"Your Gaz 4 is comming...")
But, that being said, I really liked the K's vision of RL, their articles in the BoS, and the way they handled it in the products they wrote.
Thus, I regret that people whose vision of a setting I enjoy are not in charge of its development, and more importantly, walk away from it because of "creative differences" with the setting developers, who brought us great hits as the Gazetteers, but also great hits (to the gut) as CoD or HoL. That leads me to think that their vision of RL is not one that I might share as much.
But, of course, only time will tell, and clairsentience is not one of current abilities. ;)
And, as I said in my previous post, it was only a useless rant.
;)
Originally posted by QuentinGeorge
Chill, chill. you are basing your entire thesis about poor old Tadd on one book, Champions of Darkness.
Give it a chance. He may have learnt something.
Yes, but the fact he told me on the K's old IM system that he had asked could he introduce the whole crappy "Cold War" scenario and the Ebon Gargoyle and had been given complete blessings by the Powers that Be annoys me. The whole book is an affront to every product before it stretching back to the Black Box.
Originally posted by The MadStepDad
In your opinion. Your opinion is not fact.
Mine and about half the posters on this messageboard. CoD is a failed book.
Originally posted by Drinnik Shoehorn
Mine and about half the posters on this messageboard. CoD is a failed book.
Drinnik's right on that point and I also saw that : "It ain't gonna be your mama's Ravenloft anymore" post
Originally posted by Drinnik Shoehorn
CoD is a failed book.
You say it with such finality. It is your expressed opinion that CoD is not too good. Roughly "half of the posters on the messageboard" agree with you. That must mean the other half disagree. I, for one, most certainly do.
It's only your half that complains so loudly.
Originally posted by The MadStepDad
You say it with such finality. It is your expressed opinion that CoD is not too good. Roughly "half of the posters on the messageboard" agree with you. That must mean the other half disagree. I, for one, most certainly do.
It's only your half that complains so loudly.
Meh. I'm British, name something we do better than complaining.
Originally posted by Drinnik Shoehorn
Meh. I'm British, name something we do better than complaining.
Drinking tea?
Originally posted by Bob the Efreet
Drinking tea?
OK, apart from that.
Originally posted by The MadStepDad
You say it with such finality. It is your expressed opinion that CoD is not too good. Roughly "half of the posters on the messageboard" agree with you. That must mean the other half disagree. I, for one, most certainly do.
It's only your half that complains so loudly.
not really one half complains and the other half haven't bought the book and have not said a thing either way.
Originally posted by frandelgearslip on steve millers messageboards
Well since I think that the fifth age was no good and I think the non-kargatane 3rd edition ravenloft products were no good and have been vocal about it on messageboards I will respond for all my fellow fanboy gamers.
First of all in my opinion the fifth age was a bad Idea. First of all the rules did not work. For one thing each pc had a set of cards with different values on them ranging from 1 to 10. Each card did dmg or helped acheive an action based on the value on the card. Since higher valued cards are better, players would use lower value cards when fighting weak enemies. Thats unrealistic as a person would not try less in a life or death battle, simply because the enemy is a goblin not a draconian. Also there was incentive for the players to do stupid actions in an attempt to use their low valued cards. For example players would start bar brawls and make nonsensical actions in town to try and dump low value cards. Furthermore since npcs don't have cards for npcs str = hp = dmg done with a succesful attack. That also does not make sense. Of course then the magic system was defined as "whatever". Simply put the rules were nowhere near as good as the 2nd edition rules they replaced.
Now on to the setting of the fifth age. The setting was essentially big dragons come from somewhere (no explanation given) and took over krynn. They then split krynn up between them, oh and there are no gods. So the setting was fundamentally rewritten so that krynn is split into "nations" and each of these "nations" is ruled by an uber-lord (dragons). Might have been interesting if not for the fact that both ravenloft and dark sun are worlds where each "nation" is ruled by uber-lords. It was highly been-there done that. It just was not that interesting, nowhere as interesting as before the changes were made. It made me think of it as a poor man's dark sun.
First off the non-kargatane products like champions of darkness and heroes of light are of low quality. I don't want to go over the many beefs I have with them other to mention the fact that champions of darkness shows a barovia that is not even remotely similar to the barovia detailed in every other product ever put out. Heroes of light has serious problems with its rules and for the most part it is obvious that the people writing it don't have a firm grasp on D&D much less ravenloft. If one wants more detailed reviews check out enworld.org I reviewed both products there. The ravenloft phb has new rules from the developers that as others have mentioned are a little too similar to those from the world of darkness books, which is not surprising since the developers and every new writer they have gotten for the line only have experience with worlds of darkness. To me it looks like the setting is getting closer and closer to worlds of darkness. I don't think anybody can argue that the non-kargatane products were inferior to those written by the kargatane. Furthermore the non-karagatane products to this date are of such low quality that people would be better off buying other 3rd party D&D products instead.
The main problem with the line is the developers who seem not to know what they are doing. I am sorry but I have no confidence in their ability to handle the line. John Mangrum claimed that when the writers the developers picked turned in their monsters for denizens of darkness some of the monsters did not resemble in any way, shape, or form the monsters they were supposed to be updates of, furthermore some of the monsters turned in were partially written in (wait for it)...................2ND EDITION. (which raises the question exactly what did the writers do since they were supposed to be doing 3rd edition updates of 2nd edition monsters).
Change is not the be all end all. In fact I have great respect for the kargatane precisely because they wrote quality products without destroying the gameworld. I think gameworlds are different from novels and television shows. In an ideal world there not supposed to change that much, because people are using them to play campaigns in. And it screws everything up if one has to in mid campaign explain why Azalin is dead and what the hell happened to II Aluk. Or to use forgotten realms why Fzoul Chembryl is in charge of the zhenatarim and what the deal is with the crapload of manshoon clones running around. Of course one can ignore the changes, but as you ignore changes you end up ignoring more and more until the new products coming out have little that you can use.
Game products are supposed to be useful, so yes it is annoying when a good idea/adventure hook/story contribution is replaced by things that are less interesting. To look at Dark Sun one of the main cornerstones were the sorcerer kings that ruled each city-state. Well the first thing the people in charge of the setting did was kill off the sorcerer kings one by one until by the end only 2 of them were still around. Or in the forgotten realms Alias novel series they wiped out the night masks (the premier assasins in FR) and treated them like they were nothing more than jokes. One can argue on the relative quality of RA Salvatore but he manages to write best selling books without having to rewrite the campaign setting every time (unlike margaret weis).
This is even more important in that ravenloft by its nature is a more static setting then dark sun or forgotten realms. This is not to say that all change is bad. The moves made after the grand conjunction fixed things that were wrong and the addition of clusters were an improvement, but change for changes sake should not be going on. Dragonlance does not even vaguely resemble the campaign setting it began as and I don't blame people for moving on, especially since most of the products after the intitial ones are inferior to those from other settings.
Also I think it is misrepresentation to say that people act like the kargatane began the product line. In fact the following exchange is very common on messageboards:
poster 1: I am not going to buy anymore ravenloft products until at least a month after it comes out so that I can find out whether it is any good and not another champion of darkness.
poster 2: Well except for those that are written by steve miller we can trust him.
poster 1: True dat, true dat.
I have great respect for steve miller, but I disagree with the statements that were made. I think people praise the kargatane because they earned it, they tear to pieces the developers and other authors because they deserve it.
--a fan of the kargatane, steve miller, and ravenloft.
Well since I think that the fifth age was no good and I think the non-kargatane 3rd edition ravenloft products were no good and have been vocal about it on messageboards I will respond for all my fellow fanboy gamers.
If you want to associate yourself with willfully (and proudly) ignorant blowhards, be my guest.
You apparently bothered to look at 5A releases. You're not the kind of "fan" that I'm disgusted with. (Although I have to wonder how I managed to write the 5A products I did, given your description of the material.) I'm disgusted with the kind of "fan" who is condemning products even before they've been completely written.
I don't blame people for moving on. I blame ignorant asses for shooting of their mouths about things they have no knowledge of.
Originally posted by Writer of Stuff
I'm getting really, REALLY tired of this hero worship, as much as I like John and the rest of Kargatane... and as much as I liked the work they did. Bu t that could be because I saw the same sort of stupid crap when I was working on Dragonlance.
[/b]
I have to concurr, Steve.
I have nothing against the Kargatane. In fact, except for a few disagreements, I've never had a problem with any of them. I'm sad as anyone that they've left the Ravenloft community.
However, I find it equally saddening that many fans seem to have "made up their minds" about the setting.
The greatest tragedy I think that has occurred over this "ketchup accident" is Van Ritchen's Guide to the Shadow Fey. This book is already reviled, and it hasn't even been published. Indeed, even as I was writing chapters for the book, I was already hearing about how bad it was going to be. It's quite a challenge to write something that people expect to fail.
Ah, well. What happens, happens. However, if I might make a suggestion to the fans out there? The writers and developers would much more benefit from constructive criticism. Tell us specifically what you don't like. And please no more about CoD or the RLPHB. We've heard it all. We all know what you don't like about those books. Telling us for the 100th time won't change history.
Don't forget to tell us what you like, too. Already, one of the key developer decisions made this year was made because of fan feedback. Ultimately, telling us what you want to see is far more constructive and beneficial. If enough people speak up, often the writers and developers will notice and say, "Hey...alot of people want to see a book on 'X.' Let's do a book on that. Or, many people liked this about book X. Let's do more of that."
Originally posted by Rucht_Lilavivat
The greatest tragedy I think that has occurred over this "ketchup accident" is Van Ritchen's Guide to the Shadow Fey. This book is already reviled, and it hasn't even been published. Indeed, even as I was writing chapters for the book, I was already hearing about how bad it was going to be. It's quite a challenge to write something that people expect to fail.
Rucht has the right of it. Please judge books on their own merits. Shadow Fey is a strong book with good, able writers all.
Venting is great; insulting others isn't. As developers, we choose not to add to the Kargatane vs other writers debate nor will we comment on the Kargatane vs the developers situation.
Our concern is Ravenloft. We aim for quality as well as creativity.
As far as the Gazetteers go, we do know where the metaplot was intended to go. However, after Gaz V, we will probably focus on other aspects of Ravenloft for awhile -- look for some tasty Van Richten's guides as well as material for building adventures.
We recognize the passion inherent in those who post and the fact that you all care about Ravenloft.
Thanks,
Jackie & Nicky, developers
Man, it's good to see that the J-Dub is still flaring tempers amongst the community.
Having been a Ravenloft fanatic since I6 and the Black Box, I can say that - Yes, The Kargatane did a magnificent job with the line while it was within their providence. But there were some darn good books out there before they took it on, and there will be more great ones to come. Sure it's also kind of a bummer to think that an existing metaplot MAY take a sudden unexpected lurch. But isn't it safe to say, folks, that if Wizards hired incompetent authors that they'd quickly go out of business? All of the cynics among you will probably jump all over my back about that statement, but there it is.
I, for one, am really looking forward to the Guide to the Shadow Fey, if for no other reason than to supplement my imagination - seeing as how I've rather drastically altered the Shadow Rift and the Fey in my RL already.
I'm also down with MSD (yeah you know me) in regards to CoD and HoL. The books were not disappointing. They simply contained a few elements that disagreed with the conventionally Gothic standard of the setting. Every game setting has its share of power gamers who get a thrill when they're catered to. The books as a whole, however, had some really great stuff in them that I adapted eagerly into my RL.
I guess it just comes down to how fanatically loyal each of us are to canon. i.e. "It's been published! I must use it!!!" vs "Ooo, this is nice, but ugh - that's kinda lame"
The only thing that will ever disappoint me is if they stop putting Ravenloft stuff out altogether.
P.S. I'm back
VNM
Originally posted by Rucht_Lilavivat
I have to concurr, Steve.
I have nothing against the Kargatane. In fact, except for a few disagreements, I've never had a problem with any of them. I'm sad as anyone that they've left the Ravenloft community.
However, I find it equally saddening that many fans seem to have "made up their minds" about the setting.
Lots of head-nodding here. I've said it publically, and I've said it privately, I think it's a great loss that the Kargatane Boys decided they could no longer work on Ravenloft. I understand their reasons for walking away, but I think it's a shame they did.
Don't forget to tell us what you like, too. Already, one of the key developer decisions made this year was made because of fan feedback. Ultimately, telling us what you want to see is far more constructive and beneficial. If enough people speak up, often the writers and developers will notice and say, "Hey...alot of people want to see a book on 'X.' Let's do a book on that. Or, many people liked this about book X. Let's do more of that."
No comment to add, but I'm repeating it for emphasis.
Originally posted by JackieandNicky
Rucht has the right of it. Please judge books on their own merits. Shadow Fey is a strong book with good, able writers all.
Venting is great; insulting others isn't. As developers, we choose not to add to the Kargatane vs other writers debate nor will we comment on the Kargatane vs the developers situation.
Which means you're smarter than any of us.
Specifically, I’m very glad that Ravenloft is a published 3.5E setting. That – more than anything – is what I’m most grateful for.
Secondly, I love Ravenloft as a bridge to the other old-school TSR worlds. I used to think it was a shame that we had to cut ties in the new millennium, but I understand it’s all politiks. However, I am very grateful that those old ties are still subtly mentioned or alluded to in new products. That way, the old-school heads can still get their kicks and the new cats won’t get tangled.
Yes I like the Gazetteer series. Books that intricately detail each domain gets two thumbs up from me. Yes, I would like to see every domain detailed but that’s only cuz I know ‘em all. For a newbie, too many domains may flood the market. The last thing you wanna do is start duplicating concepts and rehashing old themes. Whateva this “metaplot” was is secondary to me. As is this whole S spectacle. Her journeys were less important to me, and even distracting at times. I DO want to read about flora and fauna, father and daughter and all that good stuff, but not necessarily painted with such an opinionated stance. Yeah I’m feeling her character and cold analysis is cool, but not want I want in my G series. I want an inside view of the domain and not an outside one. I’m not saying the S storyline isn’t fresh – cuz it is. I’m just saying I buy the books for the concrete info and stay for S’s escapades. Ya dig?
Next, the bread, butter and better. Shakin those money-getters. I’m talking about PrCs and feats. I like them very much. You can never have enough. Going through new 3.5E products and checking for the feats and PrCs is half the fun for me. I love how every world or setting has its own PrCs and feats to flavor and customize it. Maybe that’s why I liked HoL and CoD so much. But what I liked best about those two books was the philosophies they espoused. I think it clearly defined what RL “is” for all these new cats that alwayz be asking (check the page for similar threads). I think that Ravenloft -- in its truest essence -- is the epitome of “heroic role-playing”. Evil devours itself. Hack-n-slash, town-burning, dungeon-delvers are free to do as they choose – but karma gets them in the end. I like the way RL makes you pay for your sins – one way or another. In the end, I find redemption to be the main theme coursing through Ravenloft – but that’s off-topic.
I especially like the Dread Possibilities that absolutely must be included in future products. I can see how this might tangle the web of those obsessed with keeping a strict canon timeline or something similar, as you might not ever know which event truly “happened”. It’s subjective and up to each DMs discretion. I like the customizing of RL that seems to come from these newer products. Pick and choose what you like for what your particular “view” of RL is. And I know everybody has a view (and nine opinions to match) of what RL “is” and “should be” but I love how RL through the years has kept that so abstract. KEEP THE DPz UNEXPLAINED. That’s a must.
I loved the latest VR Guide, that concept should never die. And the whole Weathermay-Foxgrove, VR Society stuff is the perfect way to keep that legacy alive. But I for one want to see more urban and wilderness settings tackled. And tackled hard. Bring back Alanik Ray or even the hidden, unreleased manuscripts of VR (I found them) that detail the grimy, deplorable underbelly of society. I want rich city settings similar to that old Folks Feuds Factions thing for 2E Greyhawk. Networks of NPCs and how they interact, both good and bad! The Children of the Night series was hot, but no need to regulate them to strict monster-types. Diary of a serial killer? Something like that. But I want just as much detail on the heroes as the as I do the villains. I love how current RL has found that balance and I only hope you can keep it.
And I know it’s impossible, but… maybeanewnovelortwoandperhapsonesmalltinyadventure… I mean, even just ONE new novel and maybe a collection of short adventures would do. I’m not greedy. A collection of short adventures that illustrates your points and concepts would be, like… totally radical, doode. And maybe even a new Tales of Ravenloft type novel for the 200-fo. (please?)
Bottom-line, I revert back to my original point. I’m glad RL is here—nuff said. I support it cuz it’s the illest setting I know. The hood loves RL. Keep on keeping it real. I want to see RL hit harder than any other D&D product ever. I want to see RL push that envelope further than it’s ever been pushed, and touch stuff others Games normally wouldn’t. I want to see RL drop stuff like Book of Exalted Deeds and Book of Vile Darkness (of which HoL and CoD are lighter versions of). I really want to see at least ONE RavenloftL product with that infamous “Mature Audiences Only” warning. Just ONE!
Thanx for listening to me, it was great to see you all together in one room. Peace out and pass the pipe to the right!!!
MSD
On the flip side of the coin, I'm dubious about VRGttSF simply because Tad McDivvit is working on it. I think that VRGttWD was a fantastic book, showing that templates are not the be-all-and-end-all of making a new monster from an existing one, I'm not poopooing Rucht Lilavivat, but I can't comment on his writing because I don't know which sections of the book he wrote.
But Tad McDivvit wrote the Cold War and Sheriff Von Zarovich, two of the weakest elements of any book I've read. And it's not the lack of Gothic elements that bothered me about CoD, it was the unbalanced rules, the lack luster PrCs, the poor feats and the fact that the whole book read like McDivvit's gone "My l33t campaign rox. Can't wait to make it canon."
I get a knock on my door and I walk over and open the door. As soon as the door opens I get punched in the face by a clown who then runs off.
The next day I get a knock on my door and I walk over and open the door. As soon as the door opens I get punched in the face by a clown who then runs off.
2 days later I get a knock on my door and I walk over and open the door. As soon as the door opens I get punched in the face by a clown who then runs off.
3 days later I get a knock on my door and I walk over and open the door. As soon as the door opens I blow the clown away with my shotgun.
The moral of the story: Humans are higher animals and can learn from the past. To use a cliche "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me."
Originally posted by The MadStepDad
I think that Ravenloft -- in its truest essence -- is the epitome of “heroic role-playing”. Evil devours itself. Hack-n-slash, town-burning, dungeon-delvers are free to do as they choose – but karma gets them in the end. I like the way RL makes you pay for your sins – one way or another. In the end, I find redemption to be the main theme coursing through Ravenloft – but that’s off-topic.
Interesting. That's similar to how I've often viewed RL. (I have a couple of different modes I view the setting in, but my favorite one is where redemption and heroic sacrifice play a central role in the "ethos" of the world.)
Hack-and-slash is something I've never enjoyed and something I've never been able to get into the spirit of (partly why "Doomgrinder" and "Die Vecna Die" are less-than-exciting at points, because I simply cannot figure out how to do good dungeon crawls). Like I've said, I'm not the greatest game designer around.
I especially like the Dread Possibilities that absolutely must be included in future products. I can see how this might tangle the web of those obsessed with keeping a strict canon timeline or something similar, as you might not ever know which event truly “happened”.
I couldn't agree more. I've always felt that canon shouldn't mean jack to the individual game-group out there and the more liberty that one can grant to the creative DM (who still likes to play within the framework of an existing world) from the shackles of canon that so many feel they must place upon themselves and other gamers, the better a product is. That's why every one of the "old-time" Ravenloft releases I had control over had multiple endings--"Bleak House," "The Evil Eye," and "Circle of Darkness." Even the ones I was involved in where multiple endings weren't feasible, I tried to make the adventures with vague resolutions or lots of dangling threads. To me, the truly useful game product is the one that keeps on giving... the one that feeds into new ideas and adventures of my own creation.
I loved the latest VR Guide, that concept should never die. And the whole Weathermay-Foxgrove, VR Society stuff is the perfect way to keep that legacy alive. But I for one want to see more urban and wilderness settings tackled. And tackled hard. Bring back Alanik Ray or even the hidden, unreleased manuscripts of VR (I found them) that detail the grimy, deplorable underbelly of society. I want rich city settings similar to that old Folks Feuds Factions thing for 2E Greyhawk. Networks of NPCs and how they interact, both good and bad! The Children of the Night series was hot, but no need to regulate them to strict monster-types. Diary of a serial killer? Something like that. But I want just as much detail on the heroes as the as I do the villains. I love how current RL has found that balance and I only hope you can keep it.
When it looked like I'd not work on Ravenloft again (ca. 2001), one of my greatest dissapointments was that I'd never get to write about the Weathermay Twins. (I felt that same dissapointment when I "surrendered" them to a fiction author during the planning stages for a short story anthology that never came together... but he had a really cool story idea, and the girls appealed to him when he read about them in DoD.) I hope that maybe I'll have that chance anyway now! I'm glad that so many others like them, too.
Oh, and as far as those unpublished VR manuscripts go... you've got Laurie and Gennifer's address, right?
I really want to see at least ONE RavenloftL product with that infamous “Mature Audiences Only” warning. Just ONE!
For what little it's worth, this is where we part ways. I think it's possible to do mature themes without sinking to the sophomoric level of "Book of Vile Darkness" or (God help me) "Book of Erotic Fantasy."
Originally posted by Drinnik Shoehorn
I stand by my comments. I'm not poopooing Bloodlines, I'm saying that I can't see much material for the book. I'm really looking forward to it because of the Steve's writing it, I love his second ed products.
If you don't think "Bloodlines" is worthwhile, then that's fair. But I was left with the distinct impression that your stance was, "I didn't like CoD and HoL, therefore, I KNOW I'm going to hate Bloodlines." If I misread you, I apologize.
Like I said, it may stink, but it ticks me off to see a book condemned that I've written half (or more) of, and the balance of which has been written by other long-time designers--I think... I know Anthony Pryor did a chapter, and I think Skip and/or Penny Williams did another. (I touched bases with Anthony Pryor during the process, which is why I'm certain he worked on it. I don't remember the rest, because it was back in October when I last had to think about who the other writers on "Legacy of Blood" are.)
As for Tadd McDivvitt... I think there are worse sins than incorporating material from your own campaign into official products. I also think that we all have to start somewhere. From what I hear about him--I don't know the gentleman personally, and I have never spoken or corresponded with him--he has a deep love for Ravenloft and he is exciting about game design. We should be happy with a designer like that over the one who will write anything so long as he's getting paid up front. (And, yeah, I've been criticle of CoD too. But I think the continuing harping on that book and poor McDivvitt really goes beyond the Pale.)
Originally posted by Rucht_Lilavivat
Indeed, even as I was writing chapters for the book, I was already hearing about how bad it was going to be. It's quite a challenge to write something that people expect to fail.[/b]
Aaaargh ! Talk about horror ! That must have been uncool, indeed. I feel sorry for you.
Anyway, after the angst period we had at the end of last year, about the future of the line, we should now recover from those bad news and put our hopes higher.
Indeed, the 'future RL line' bashing is a shame, as many talented persons are still at work on it. For those authors who makes us worry, indeed, let's hope they learned from their mistakes.
And yes, true, we should write reviews so we make our goods and bads known. I'll keep a close eye on new products, but I will give 'em a chance.
Joël
I really loved all the Kargatane did but they are leaving, nothing we can do about that, so lets keep an open mind on new hands at the setting.
I don't believe you should judge designers solely on one product (especially their first foray into, lets face it, a difficult setting to get a handle on). Let's not forget there were gripes in the days of 2nd edition: Grim Harvest series anyone? Howls in the Night? The continually shifting story of Tristan Hiregaard? (hopefully Gaz 5 will fix this)
Originally posted by The MadStepDad
I especially like the Dread Possibilities that absolutely must be included in future products. I can see how this might tangle the web of those obsessed with keeping a strict canon timeline or something similar, as you might not ever know which event truly “happened”. It’s subjective and up to each DMs discretion...
Right. This is one of the strengths of RL as a setting: adaptability. Want a new domain? Put it in. Hate a darklord? replace him. Think Arkandale should have an antebellum South theme, building toward a full-fledged Civil War? Sounds like fun. The idea of strict "canon" is, well, uncanon when you consider how the setting originated and evolved. This is the Land of the Mists, not Living Greyhawk.
And I know it’s impossible, but… maybeanewnovelortwoandperhapsonesmalltinyadventure… I mean, even just ONE new novel and maybe a collection of short adventures would do. I’m not greedy. A collection of short adventures that illustrates your points and concepts would be, like… totally radical, doode. And maybe even a new Tales of Ravenloft type novel for the 200-fo. (please?)
This is what boggles my mind. It shouln't be impossible.
The developers have said that according to their product research there's no money in adventures, that they don't sell well. I scratch my head at these conclusions... Adventures were the foundation of the setting. The Grand Conjunction, Grim Harvest, other "weekend in hell scenarios"--all very successful. The CoTN series was essentially a set of mini-adventures. In the end, what were 2E's Domains of Dread and even the new RL products (Gazetteers, even) but a condensation of rules, domains and NPCs that were originally introduced in various adventures?
In purely practical terms: if you're the DM just trying out the setting for the first time, you'd rather rely on a published, well-devised introductory adventure than have to spend $50-$100 in books (RLCS/PHB, RLDMG, DoDark, Gaz x), study them for weeks and then spend your time and energy cooking something up. Or, you could somehow find an old 2E adventure and laboriously convert it. Both are a daunting task for the casual DM (and the second option makes Arthaus no money at all). But while the profit margin in adventures may be thin (or even negative), the ancillary rewards are far greater; you make access to the setting as quick, cheap, and intriguing as possible to the curious DM or gaming group, and they'll come back for more. Adventures are the gateway drug, if you will.
It worked for I6.
As for the books... their synergy with game settings is obvious. The success of the Dragonlance novels fed the success of the game setting, and vice-versa. Same for RA Salvatore's Drizzt books, for FR. We need not look any further than I, Strahd, which is one of the best-selling vampire novels on the shelf, game-based or otherwise. And I should not have to mention the continued success of books starring 'ol Buckethead. Sithicus wouldn't be on the map without them.
(Of course, recognize that Jackie and Nicky probably have very little influence on novel or anthology publishing. That's a different department... but whoever is in charge of that is definitely overlooking a huge opportunity. As James Lowder mentioned before, the best thing to do is to assert your desires to WoTC via snail-mail.)
Either way: there's a real, established, and growing market for adventures (even mini-adventures) and related published fiction. People want to spend money on quality products... the people who want your money should listen.
Originally posted by Levinthauer
Either way: there's a real, established, and growing market for adventures (even mini-adventures) and related published fiction. People want to spend money on quality products... the people who want your money should listen.
Let me explain a little further, and, please understand that this is my understanding of the situation as told to me by the people to whom I'm responsible (my bosses at White Wolf/Sword & Sorcery Studios and, for Ravenloft, their connections at Wizards of the Coast).
Adventures do not sell as well as products intended for both players and DMs. If you have a group of 5 players and one DM, everyone will buy sourcebooks, but DMs will be the majority purchasers of adventures they intend to run. Players may even be asked NOT to purchase those adventures. From a seller's standpoing, sourcebooks potentially sell several times as many copies as adventures. (Never mind role-playing goobs like me who like to own EVERYTHING in a line regardless of whether I'll ever run it or not!
)Personally, I would LOVE to see adventures for Ravenloft. We're hoping to do something in the future that will satisfy people's desires for adventures while still providing a highly marketable product. Bottom line, if a game line doesn't sell a certain amount, it doesn't survive: witness any number of games by established companies that have only lasted a short time because they just didn't make enough sales to support them.
As far as fiction goes, again, I'd love to see Ravenloft novels. Unfortunately, White Wolf/Sword & Sorcery Studios does not hold the license for Ravenloft fiction. Wizards of the Coast still has that legal property and therefore, we can't publish Ravenloft fiction except as small inserts in sourcebooks...
Please, write letters (SNAIL MAIL) to Wizards of the Coast telling them that you would like to see Ravenloft fiction. That would be the best way to get them to consider it. Also write to White Wolf/Sword & Sorcery Studios and tell them you'd like to see Ravenloft fiction. In both cases, hard copies of letters sent through snail mail are the way to go.
As developers, Nicky & I have final say over the content of the books we publish. What we publish must be approved by our bosses and by Wizards of the Coast.
Hope that clears things up a bit.
Thanks
Jackie Cassada, Raveloft co-developer
Originally posted by Writer of Stuff
If you don't think "Bloodlines" is worthwhile, then that's fair. But I was left with the distinct impression that your stance was, "I didn't like CoD and HoL, therefore, I KNOW I'm going to hate Bloodlines." If I misread you, I apologize.
Heh, I'm not the most eloquent man at the best of times,so I'm sorry for the confusion!
Originally posted by Writer of Stuff
Like I said, it may stink, but it ticks me off to see a book condemned that I've written half (or more) of, and the balance of which has been written by other long-time designers--I think... I know Anthony Pryor did a chapter, and I think Skip and/or Penny Williams did another. (I touched bases with Anthony Pryor during the process, which is why I'm certain he worked on it. I don't remember the rest, because it was back in October when I last had to think about who the other writers on "Legacy of Blood" are.)
You're killin' me, Steve. I've been waiting for Legacy of Blood since I first heard it proposed. I'm dying for this book to be published! Argh! I can't wait for the possibilities that it will open for my players.
I had spoken to Tadd McDivitt, and gotten to know him a while back. While his style might not be the same as everyone's, Stever is absolutely right. He has a deep love of Ravenloft, and was no stranger to it before he began writing. And he's just a really nice fella who happens to have a job many would kill for. I have a lot of faith in Shadow fey, and in Tadd.
Originally posted by Bela Reborn
Just to add-
I had spoken to Tadd McDivitt, and gotten to know him a while back. While his style might not be the same as everyone's, Stever is absolutely right. He has a deep love of Ravenloft, and was no stranger to it before he began writing. And he's just a really nice fella who happens to have a job many would kill for. I have a lot of faith in Shadow fey, and in Tadd.
I just hope he has learnt from his mistakes.
I'm mostly quite happy with the direction Ravenloft is going.
My only complaint is "no good maps!"
I just hope that the new Dark Powers will not change much that has gone before. Some of the new products have not been as true to the established past as I would have liked.
If there are changes to the past to be done, I hope it is just to clear up any continuality problems.
There is reason to be hesitant and wait for reviews. It does feel the Developers erred a few times: by approving several now unpopular things in CoD and the Player’s Handbook, or how they didn’t learn from the latter before the publishing of Denizens of Dread. Add onto this the ketchup-burst. The K did great stuff and it’s sad to see them go as I want more. As do the majority of the fans. That’s a lot to take in, especially over the course of only two years. If it were spread out maybe it would seem less… abrupt, but the frequency alone of this is cause tread softly and slowly.
That said, some people are being a bit overly dramatic about this. What is it about gaming or geek hobbies that induce such absolutes in people? Great or crap, all-good or all-fertilizer. The tendency of people to migrate to two opposing camps of polar opposites never ceases to surprise me, especially when time after time the results tend to fall somewhere in the middle. This should really be the subject of an intense scientific study. Preferably with some form of electroshock.
However, people do learn and I’m hoping the maligned CoD author(s) will do better next time. I’m confident he will. No one takes that level of flak and doesn’t learn something. Personally I think he’d be trying extra-extra hard to do something truly great and extraordinary just to blow the fans and naysayers away. Who in their right mind would do a follow-up with something below par? Unless of course they felt under-appreciated and hated and simply lacked the confidence to improve. Since we don’t want that to happen….
My first net submission for RL was pure and utter crap. I thought it was great and was insulted that the K rejected it (I was also only 17 or so at the time). Now I feel different, I know different. My more recent work is vastly superior, and it should only improve with time and experience. I think anyone here who has written anything will agree.
What inspires the greatest confidence in me that the books will improve is the fact the Developers and some of the Authors frequent the message boards and talk to the fans. The Duo has even been known to ask for input, asking the fans what future products they would like to see. It’s nice to see that.
And unrelated: I liked the 5th Age/Saga system. The old world was better, but the card game was fun and different from 90% of games on the market. It was nice to see them taking a risk and doing something new and different rather than just put out another 2E campaign setting for Dragonlance. Some of the rules needed tweaking but I enjoyed the control and strategy being able to pick the card you could play offered. A random element is essential to RPGs and it was great to see a game where it wasn’t just dice again.