|#1zombiegleemaxFeb 21, 2004 14:26:58||Aight. Starting a Ravenloft campaign, and because I have a soft spot for new players, I'm allowing one to basically develop a PrC where he can use firearms over time. How much research and time do you, my esteemed colleagues, think would be necessary for him to be able to develop a gun?|
|#2zombiegleemaxFeb 21, 2004 15:09:32||Err, what is it that you're asking? |
Does he want to invent his own guns? Or just be able to use one? Or to be able to use one better...?
If it's a matter of using firearms, they come at the cost of an exotic weapon proficiency, or, as I'm all about the proper pimping of good ideas (or ones that just make sense and aren't too unbalancing), you could go with John Mangrum's variant where a character coming from a CL 9 domain has the pistol as a simple weapon proficiency, and rifle as a martial one.
If it's a matter of making new firearms...I'd be a bit leary of that for one, but beyond that, I'd leave that primary up to the arena of Skills as opposed to Prestige Classes. I'd possibly jimmy up a new Knowledge skill specifically geared towards firearms or explosives or the like, and tie it in with Craft (firearms). Though a Prestige Class that was even better at those two skills doesn't seem too unreasonable, if perhaps a bit...odd? Eh.
If you're looking for an amount of time for him to do research and make improvements...hm. As it is, I think the current Keep It Simple, Stupid method of weapons leaves it a bit bothersome to try and make improvements upon those weapons that are in-line with what one could expect out of one individual or century or what have you. How long did it take to give the inside of a gun barrel a spiralling as opposed to smooth bore, for example? And does doing that really make the gun no different than a masterwork firearm...? So I'm not quite sure how to answer that.
|#3zombiegleemaxFeb 21, 2004 16:01:08|
Originally posted by TricksterGod
This is probably closest to what I'm asking...I want to know how much research you think would be necessary for one to be able to actually invent firearms, and how much time and resources it would take to construct said firearms.
|#4zombiegleemaxFeb 24, 2004 12:44:45||I take the concept, if it can go wrong it will, it takes an age to reload a flintlock, so you either need dozens of them, and therefore have the associated risks, like going near fires, causing sparks from metal breastplates, Dampness and waterlogging etc. By the time all of this is weighed up, yes have guns but realise the fact is you get one (possibly two) very inacurate shots before you have to fall back on another weapon which you could have spent more SP on perfecting rather than taking a weapon, Largely inaccurate, good for show, but bad for defense. There was a program on the BBC in the UK that will probably be shown on cable and satalite all over the world, Clarkson, on the history of Guns http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2003/12_december/23/inventions.shtml|
I hope this is of Some use to People, I found it vastly enlightening myself.
|#6zombiegleemaxFeb 26, 2004 12:35:40||Well, to fill in the whole story of how my character will come to acquire the design for the technology will fill in alot.|
MY character has the basic personality of wanting to improve his weapons to their maximum power. The PrC that uses guns was supposedly a dead civilizations that at one point had revolver wielding knights. My character finds the journal of one of these knights and is fascinated by the concept of the guns. The journal chronicles the life of this ideal knight fromhis first apprenticeship into his gunlisnger days. Which means that it tells how to build the revolvers that the class used. My character egins to slowly emulate this heroic champion of his ddreams until he finally sits down and, using the designs and directions in the journal, attempts to build himself the guns of the class. He knows nothing about guns or how to make bombs, and doesn't really strive to learn. He only wishes to become this warrior that he has read about over the time of the campaign.
*sighs* Wow, that took alot of typing for me to explain. I hope it clears something up.
|#7gonzoronFeb 26, 2004 13:19:09||I don't think it's a recipe for disaster at all. At first I thought guns+D&D was a terrible idea, but I've come to see them as a vital part of the flavor of Ravenloft. (At least in some domains.)|
I've got a gunsmith PC in my campaign. So far we've been using the craft(gunsmithing) rules for basic (and masterwork) firearms, but the player wants to get a bit more advanced. Now that they so often come upon enemies with damage reduction, regular bullets are often useless. He doesn't see the character as a wizard, but wants to make "magical" guns.
So we're working on a system of "Tinkering" that uses feats and closely mirrors the magic item creation process. (We figured the magic item process is well playtested and documented, so why reinvent the wheel). Right now we've got the initial feats laid out for it:
(note: they're not playtested yet, since he's still working on his first Scientific gun.)
We're also working on a Gunsmith prestige class that would get these feats as class abilities, but that's not finalized yet.
So for example, one of his first creations will probably be a "flaming" or "flaming burst" pistol, with bullets that explode for extra damage. (and with an effective +1 against DR) This shouldn't really be any more imbalancing than a flaming burst crossbow, since pistols are slower than crossbows to begin with.
|#8zombiegleemaxFeb 26, 2004 13:34:40||I suppose it depends on HOW your campaign is structured realy and how much High Fantasy you use... And what your players want more than anything, My players 90% wanted guns, So I let them IC train with the Guards, then Nuke the guardstation halfway through training, either that, or they would have forgotten that blackpowder goes bang, lit a campfire and gone boom |
It all depends on a. Table and House rules b. The players mentality some people get IC and their brains switch off. Others don't
(Like our Druid ATM, shes a begger for catching me out)
|#9zombiegleemaxFeb 27, 2004 10:38:20||If your players want to develop handgun skills, I suggest you detour your campaign through the Shining Bay cluster. They could buy them off the rack there. I'd also suggest reading the articles 'Masterwork Firearms' and 'Black Powder Magic' in 'Quoth the Raven' Issue 2. Also, if you're doing research, it might interest you to know that with the advent of firearms, the japanese samurai martial artists developed an entirely new martial art, Ho-jut-su, involving the care and use of firearms. If you can find any references to that, it would be something really cool to include in a game.|
|#10zombiegleemaxFeb 27, 2004 18:06:16||I just finished reading some of the articles in the Undead Sea Scrolls 2003 and it occurs to me that there are significant secondary effects of firearms that aren't accounted for. For example: If an armored combatant is fired on by a musket and the gun isn't quite powerful enough to pierce the armor, isn't the armored combatant still flattened by the shot or at least knocked back in his heels or aren't the firearms inquestion powerful enough?|
|#11rotipherFeb 28, 2004 13:27:14||Even modern handheld firearms aren't powerful enough to knock somebody down, unless you're packing beanbag-shot or consider a mortar a "handheld" firearm. The force of impact is too focused on just one tiny spot to have that kind of an effect; if guns could pack that much force into a bullet, the kickback from firing it would make the *shooter* fall over backwards!|
People who are non-fatally shot IRL and _don't realize they've been hit_ often keep walking until blood loss makes them keel over. Those who *do* fall down on impact -- assuming that they didn't literally get their foot blown off -- do so because movies and TV have conditioned them to think they're "supposed to".
So an armored character whose AC protects them from a bullet wound shouldn't fall over, any more than a properly-trained IRL soldier or police officer whose kevlar stops an incoming round.
|#12zombiegleemaxFeb 28, 2004 15:25:05|
Originally posted by Rotipher
True, modern bullets are "bullet-shaped" and thus focus energy to a small point for maximum penetration. We can discuss the merits of blunter, hollow-point, or flechette-style extremes and their effect on knocking someone down, but that misses the point (if you will): period-style lead bullets were round and functionally closer to blunt-impact than armor-piercing in effect. Also consider the size of the bullet itself; nobody remains standing after being hit with a .50 cal shot, musketball or modern full metal jacket round. Dueling pistols, perhaps...but not always.
This is even more true when you consider body armor, which by design spreads the force of impact over a wider area to help prevent penetration. Assuming the armor is strong enough not to be breached, the wearer still takes the full impact of the shot, converted to blunt damage and knockdown. Yes, a cop wearing kevlar will get knocked on his keister, but at least he'll have just a deep, nasty bruise (or even broken bone) and may have the wind knocked out of him. Better than the alternative. In the end, it won't just riccochet harmlessly off your mithril chain shirt. It'll hurt.
Of course, this all assumes lead shot. Enjoy the ramifications of less pliable metals, like cold iron or silver.
The action-reaction argument is valid, but doesn't take into account that the shooter is braced and set while the target usually is not. You can knock someone down with a Colt .45 just as easily as you can break your own wrist if you don't fire it properly. By the same token, it's no more adviseable to run while shooting a black powder weapon than is to stand there and brace for impact when getting shot at.
FWIW, I've seen this discussion a lot on other boards, like EnWorld and Mortality.net. Wouldn't be surprised if there are topic threads elsewhere here on WoTC, too. Most pirate-themed and swashbuckling adventure settings have tackled the issue, and I would suggest that anyone seriously curious about firearms in their campaign might hunt down those sources, as well.
|#13zombiegleemaxMar 01, 2004 22:00:35||So the question becomes: Is there a table or formula for computing non-penetrating effects of gunfire someplace else or does somebody here need to create one?|
|#14zombiegleemaxMar 02, 2004 2:06:49|
Originally posted by Manofevil
Actually, just use the rules as-is. Pistols do 1d10 (x3); a clever DM has any number of ways to describe what that actually feels like.
|#15zombiegleemaxMar 02, 2004 11:58:38||Great thread! I've been wondering about these very things quite a bit lately as I prepare to run a Ravenloft campaign with my players. Fabulous info, thanks folx!|
I completely forgot about the dispersal of impact design of armour. This really evens out the non-fantasy nature of firearms in a fantasy setting. Awesome!
|#16zombiegleemaxMar 02, 2004 18:02:32||Simplicity people, simplicity. Afterall, wouldn't someone who gets hit by a 30 pound club wielded by a 1200 pound giant also be sent flying? But that doesn't happen in D&D. Perhaps it should be narrated that way by the GM, but it shouldn't have any rules effects. Keep it simple, otherwise D&D is not fun.|
|#17zombiegleemaxMar 03, 2004 9:24:45||Ah. that's the old simplicity vs. realism argument. some people like simplicity. some, realism. I know a guy who deals in guns and he would INSIST on the realistic aspect. As such, we come back to the oldest answer in the books, GM's perogative. Tho, I think game group's perogative would be more accurate since both sides would have to agree to the rules. Also remember that if the bullet DOES penetrate, it's likely to pass clean through the person WITHOUT knocking them back. Not a good thing when dealing with the undead.|
|#18zombiegleemaxMar 03, 2004 9:52:07|
Originally posted by Manofevil
Through the front layer of armor, through the body, through the layer of armor worn on the back...
|#19zombiegleemaxMar 03, 2004 15:16:59||I'm just saying that, to be fair, if you're going to give knockback to bullets that don't penetrate, you should do it for a strong man wielding a mace, or a giant throwing a boulder, or a dragon batting at someone with their paw. Remember, your average modern pistol doesn't apply any more force to the target than a solid punch will - it's the difference in /how/ they are applied that makes for the massive difference in damage. Granted, if they aren't braced for it, most people will fall down with one haymaker style punch.|
It just seems goofy to give knockback to pistols, and only pistols, when there are attacks in D&D(and in real life) that are not firearms that have a hell of a lot more knockback potential.