Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 banshee Feb 22, 2004 10:57:06	Given that the WoHS have restrictions about using any weapons other than staves and daggers, what happens to multiclassed spellcasters? Like elven fighter/wizard/wizard of high sorcery? Do they need to stop using weapons, in which case there's not much point in being a fighter? Does this just apply to single class wizards? Or is this a relic of 1st Ed. which doesn't really apply anymore? Banshee
#2 zombiegleemax Feb 22, 2004 11:25:31	The Wizards of High Sorcery frown upon the use of non-traditional weapons, but the wielding of such is not sufficient to warrant branding as a renegade or even discipline by the Conclave. Your fighter / wizard / wohs can chop away with his longsword as much as he wants, but he'll probably never be elected head of his Order ( and who needs all that administrative hassle anyway? )
#3 zombiegleemax Feb 22, 2004 11:31:20	It is a tradition that wizards don't any other weapons than dagger and staff. If they are multiclasses (or a certain race), as thereby have several weapon profiviencies, they can of course use others weapons without penalty. But a WoHS would be looked down upon (by other wizards) if he/she wielded a longsword.
#4 cam_banks Feb 22, 2004 13:42:41	Wizards who have not yet taken the Test and are not members of the Orders of High Sorcery are free to use any weapon they like, and many of the elven fighter/wizards will stop short of advancing their magic in order to preserve both the traditions of the Orders and their own skill in using magic to accent their fighting ability. As wizard is the favored class of most elves, it doesn't count against their number of classes for the purposes of multiclass penalty, and thus it would be fairly easy to maintain those four levels of wizard and continue advancing as a fighter. So long as the elf doesn't gain the use of 3rd level spells, they're probably fine. And in fact, an elf with 12 Intelligence can never use 3rd level spells, so they could conceivably continue advancing as a wizard in order to use those higher level spell slots to cast additional 0-level, 1st-level and 2nd level spells with no threat of recrimination. Once they join the Orders, however, tradition (which the elves hold much stock in, especially since most are White Robes) forbids them from using anything but the dagger and staff. Their racial weapons would be discarded - magic, not the longbow and sword, should be the wizard's weapon. Cheers, Cam
#5 zombiegleemax Feb 22, 2004 15:10:09	Gilthanas used weapons, and armor. Granted he didn't really even get into the order, but he was happy (well, not happy at all, but whatever). He did it just fine. There was no cosmos-mandated-lightning bolt coming out of the sky to strike him down whenever he tried to cast a spell. Roleplaying issues are there, and yeah, I am sure someone like that will never be head of the conclave, but if it suits a character, let them.
#6 banshee Feb 22, 2004 18:07:13	Originally posted by Cam Banks Wizards who have not yet taken the Test and are not members of the Orders of High Sorcery are free to use any weapon they like, and many of the elven fighter/wizards will stop short of advancing their magic in order to preserve both the traditions of the Orders and their own skill in using magic to accent their fighting ability. As wizard is the favored class of most elves, it doesn't count against their number of classes for the purposes of multiclass penalty, and thus it would be fairly easy to maintain those four levels of wizard and continue advancing as a fighter. So long as the elf doesn't gain the use of 3rd level spells, they're probably fine. And in fact, an elf with 12 Intelligence can never use 3rd level spells, so they could conceivably continue advancing as a wizard in order to use those higher level spell slots to cast additional 0-level, 1st-level and 2nd level spells with no threat of recrimination. Once they join the Orders, however, tradition (which the elves hold much stock in, especially since most are White Robes) forbids them from using anything but the dagger and staff. Their racial weapons would be discarded - magic, not the longbow and sword, should be the wizard's weapon. Cheers, Cam Wow....that's pretty harsh. It makes the class of Fighter/Wizard, a staple of the elven nations, pretty much dead....on Krynn at least. Does that mean that the War Wizards or whatever they're called (from the Age of Mortals sourcebook) are all renegades or sorcerers? Could a wizard take the Test and pass it, but refuse to gain the WoHS prestige class and thus continue using his weapons, etc.? If not, what does that do to specialists who are not specialized in the correct school for their alignment's robe (ie. white robed transmuter)? Banshee
#7 zombiegleemax Feb 22, 2004 18:53:55	Originally posted by Banshee Wow....that's pretty harsh. It makes the class of Fighter/Wizard, a staple of the elven nations, pretty much dead....on Krynn at least. Does that mean that the War Wizards or whatever they're called (from the Age of Mortals sourcebook) are all renegades or sorcerers? Could a wizard take the Test and pass it, but refuse to gain the WoHS prestige class and thus continue using his weapons, etc.? If not, what does that do to specialists who are not specialized in the correct school for their alignment's robe (ie. white robed transmuter)? Banshee Magius is arguably known as the Greatest War Wizard in the History of Krynn. His weapon was a quarterstaff. His sacrifice enabled the WoHS to use the dagger, to honor his memory and his connection to Huma finding the Dragonlances. War Wizardry, ideally, is the utilization of MAGIC in combat, not wielding a big, bad sword. Yes, the initial design was because of 1st edition (and even 2nd edition) rules, however, for the first time, it wasn't just a "silly" rule that people argued over, it became a flavour of the setting. A warrior's weapon should be the sword (or other weapon of choice), a priest's his prayers, a rogue his stealth and a wizard his magic... Christopher
#8 zombiegleemax Feb 23, 2004 4:41:24	So long as the elf doesn't gain the use of 3rd level spells, they're probably fine. And in fact, an elf with 12 Intelligence can never use 3rd level spells, so they could conceivably continue advancing as a wizard in order to use those higher level spell slots to cast additional 0-level, 1st-level and 2nd level spells with no threat of recrimination. It'd be a bit embarrassing when the elf aged sufficiently to get an increase to his intelligence, having to wait in the sitting room with all the really young hopefuls wanting to take their test, while he, two centuries old, didn't even mean to be there...
#9 ferratus Feb 23, 2004 16:43:29	Some are adamant about the fact that the robes would never allow someone to wield weapons and there is no changing their mind. However, from a setting and rules standpoint however, this simply isn't true. There is no absolute requirement to give up other weapons after you take the test, even when you take the WoHS prestige class. As well, we have examples of characters who have been officially established as black robes and not renegades, who use weapons and armor. The most noteworthy example of this is Highlord Ariakas. However, there is a strong element of tradition. Certainly the vast majority of wizards adhere to this tradition, because most are all skinny little wimps who don't know how to use weapons anyway. Some adhere to it because their magic is powerful enough that they don't need weapons. Some are just traditionalist. There are some however, who bend the rules and defy tradition. It is up to the DM to decide how important this tradition is to the conclave, and up to you to decide how important your character considers traditions. Wearing a sword would be an interesting minor conflict with your character's mentors in the order, or a nice disguise for enemies who don't expect a wizard to be able to wield a sword. As for the elves, it is true that they are very tradition oriented. However, the exile means that many traditions are being broken (who wants to bet that the Silvanesti caste system is dissolving rapidly) and survival is of primary importance. If your elven character's stats means that the best classes to take are both fighter and wizard, then he probably is.
#10 banshee Feb 23, 2004 16:56:23	Originally posted by ferratus Some are adamant about the fact that the robes would never allow someone to wield weapons and there is no changing their mind. However, from a setting and rules standpoint however, this simply isn't true. There is no absolute requirement to give up other weapons after you take the test, even when you take the WoHS prestige class. As well, we have examples of characters who have been officially established as black robes and not renegades, who use weapons and armor. The most noteworthy example of this is Highlord Ariakas. However, there is a strong element of tradition. Certainly the vast majority of wizards adhere to this tradition, because most are all skinny little wimps who don't know how to use weapons anyway. Some adhere to it because their magic is powerful enough that they don't need weapons. Some are just traditionalist. There are some however, who bend the rules and defy tradition. It is up to the DM to decide how important this tradition is to the conclave, and up to you to decide how important your character considers traditions. Wearing a sword would be an interesting minor conflict with your character's mentors in the order, or a nice disguise for enemies who don't expect a wizard to be able to wield a sword. As for the elves, it is true that they are very tradition oriented. However, the exile means that many traditions are being broken (who wants to bet that the Silvanesti caste system is dissolving rapidly) and survival is of primary importance. If your elven character's stats means that the best classes to take are both fighter and wizard, then he probably is. That's it....tradition is foolishness if it means you lose a valuable life because your spellcaster got tired from spellcasting and couldn't defend himself. Besides Ariakan, there are other examples...in the Defenders of Magic series, when the Conclave send the hunter mages after the evil wizard chap (can't remember his name), the hunters are three wizards with scimitars strapped to their backs. Yes, it may be WoHS tradition that wizards don't use anything but staff and dagger. But it's elven tradition (for example) that all of them learn and practice with sword and bow. Banshee
#11 zombiegleemax Feb 23, 2004 17:04:41	Originally posted by Banshee That's it....tradition is foolishness if it means you lose a valuable life because your spellcaster got tired from spellcasting and couldn't defend himself. Besides Ariakan, there are other examples...in the Defenders of Magic series, when the Conclave send the hunter mages after the evil wizard chap (can't remember his name), the hunters are three wizards with scimitars strapped to their backs. Yes, it may be WoHS tradition that wizards don't use anything but staff and dagger. But it's elven tradition (for example) that all of them learn and practice with sword and bow. Banshee *sighs* You know, it's the same old arguements time and time again. In the end, it boils down to this: it's your campaign, do what the heck you want! There are exceptions to every bloody rule anways. The assassins are one example, from Defenders. A multiclass wizard/fighter is always going to be weaker in magic than a true wizard when it comes to trading spells. There's a reason that the elves don't tend to be amongst the higher echelons of the Orders, as many of them do follow the dual path. The Order is meant for those wizards who follow magic to the exclusion of all else. Yes, there are those who "fall" aside, to have families, to follow other paths, etc. As long as they don't interfere with the Orders, then they are most likely allowed to do so. However, once you pass a certain point and enter the higher ranks, you become a threat if you leave the Order. It's a semi-militant (wizardly) organization that polices magic. Think about it that way. They are not all scholars bent over dusty tomes. Yes, there are some that study weaponry. After all, to have a magical sword, you need a wizard or a priest to make it (usually), no? Traditions are sometimes foolish, yes, but other times they are there for a reason. A wizard who has spent time following the path of the warrior isn't quite as powerful in magic as a wizard who hasn't. *sighs* I give up. Never mind. It's pointless arguing in circles. Christopher
#12 ferratus Feb 23, 2004 18:09:24	Originally posted by Stormprince In the end, it boils down to this: it's your campaign, do what the heck you want! There are exceptions to every bloody rule anways. The assassins are one example, from Defenders. Yes, but we want to agree, which is why we argue. ;) A multiclass wizard/fighter is always going to be weaker in magic than a true wizard when it comes to trading spells. There's a reason that the elves don't tend to be amongst the higher echelons of the Orders, as many of them do follow the dual path. That I think is the best way to handle it. The more time you spend on the jousting field, or in the dojo, the less time you have to study arcane secrets. Hence the tradition of frowning on martial pursuits. I don't think we should treat it as an absolute rule, but an element of wizardly culture. That way you have the roleplaying flavour of adhering to the weapons restriction (Magius' sacrifice et all), the roleplaying flavour of breaking it, yet are still keeping the game mechanics solid. The Order is meant for those wizards who follow magic to the exclusion of all else. Yes, there are those who "fall" aside, to have families, to follow other paths, etc. As long as they don't interfere with the Orders, then they are most likely allowed to do so. Yep, loyalties to king and country, loyalties to family, loyalties to gods, loyalties to love. What makes the responsibility to the orders and magic so interesting is when they come into conflict. Without that conflict, you lose the idea that magic demands sacrifice.
#13 banshee Feb 23, 2004 20:57:11	Originally posted by ferratus Yes, but we want to agree, which is why we argue. ;) That I think is the best way to handle it. The more time you spend on the jousting field, or in the dojo, the less time you have to study arcane secrets. Hence the tradition of frowning on martial pursuits. I don't think we should treat it as an absolute rule, but an element of wizardly culture. That way you have the roleplaying flavour of adhering to the weapons restriction (Magius' sacrifice et all), the roleplaying flavour of breaking it, yet are still keeping the game mechanics solid. Yep, loyalties to king and country, loyalties to family, loyalties to gods, loyalties to love. What makes the responsibility to the orders and magic so interesting is when they come into conflict. Without that conflict, you lose the idea that magic demands sacrifice. This is part of what I was getting at. I think that's a fair take. I always figured it was a cultural/traditional thing and that it might be frowned on to use weapons, but that it is possible. To Mr. Coyle, I definitely didn't intend any offense with my statements/questions.....but they were questions that I felt I wanted to ask. Back in 2nd Ed. there were more hard and fast rules to it. The leaders of the various orders had level requirements....I think a character needed to be level 17 to lead the White Robes for example. So there was evidently a bias in the upper echelons towards those who focused their entire beings on the study of magic instead of weaponry etc. That I can deal with easier than picking up a sword if you're higher than level 3 being a death sentence. Banshee