|#1Shei-NadFeb 23, 2004 19:29:32||Hey.|
After much consideration, I've decided to try to include a Trader base class in my Dark Sun conversion. There are many reasons for this.
I did not have a base bard class at first, but with the bards threads here and the work of some people, I finally managed to make some sense of that class with its history and a reason behind their abilities. Now, the only base class of Dark Sun I'm missing is the Trader. Since this is a conversion, why not try to convert it.
As a non combat-oriented class (i.e. D&D incompatible, or almost), traders are hard to convert properly, and I always thought of making them experts (the NPC class) with commerce oriented skills. However, we recently entered a Rokugan (Oriental Adventures) phase in our gaming, and the Courtier class (a noble diplomat, with non-combat cha- oriented skills and abilities) really rocks. Really. Not for the melee types, of course, but those guys end up saving everyone else and getting them through most situations, avoiding many fights in the process. I'm now convinced a non-combat class with good abilities can be a viable class option for those who don't mind winning the fight by avoiding it, not hack-and-slashing it.
Also, several D&D complements are now offering a wider variety of base classes (Complete warrior, PsiHB 3.5, MiniaturesHB). These gave me some ideas and showed me prestige classes aren't always the answer.
Finally, I plan to make ''agent'' prestige classes for the major trading houses. These could be taken by trader-type characters, or any other character type, which would result in creating characters who are either traders from those houses or agents of the said traders.
I'd like for those who already tried to convert the class to point me towards their work (with a weblink or even posting their work). I'll search for myself, but it would be nice to get comments from those who did the work, and from others... I'll come up with my version afterwards, and post my ideas here.
Some basic concepts:
- lots of skill points. Probably 8. The courtier has 8 too, and any skill oriented class should have lots of those to be worth it.
- Great Cha- related bonus. The courtier gains a +4 bonus to any cha- related check while in a social setting. I'm thinking of giving the trader the same thing, but for setting in which the trader conducts negociation of some kind (which could then apply to Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Info or even Intimidate checks, and bargain, a skill I have) This really makes the difference. The class isn't just good at doing its thing because it has the skill points, this abilitiy makes them really good, and much more worth it. This bonus could possibly be scaled instead of fixed though...
Anyways, hope to hear from some people.
|#2nytcrawlrFeb 23, 2004 19:43:15||Grummore has done quite a bit.|
http://www.siltskimmer.net/entrance.html <-- PrC
http://www.siltskimmer.net/entrance.html <-- Classes
|#3zombiegleemaxFeb 23, 2004 20:09:19||Check out Ye Ol Search-O-Matic in the ds boards for trader. I won't repost the links since my browser is having some kind of open window issues (easily rectified with a large mallet and a little elbow grease).|
Most of the topics cover how its rather redundant to create a core class 'pure' conversion of the trader. An all new trader class with nifty abilities is another story. Kam did a neat write up for the trader some time back as well (buried quite a few pages back).
I'm all for seeing a whole spew of trader PrCs though; customized for not only House Traders, but also for tribal elven merchants, ssurran scavengers, etc.
|#4KamelionFeb 24, 2004 2:53:41|
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Cheers, Mach - pleasantly surprised you remembered it I dabbled a bit with a couple of variations of a trader agent prestige class that could be customised depending on who your employer (if any) happened to be. I got some good feedback and kept meaning to go back and revise it but it kinda fell by the wayside. Grummore's ideas are very cool too. My write-up isn't hosted anywhere right now, but I can mail you a copy if you're interested, Shei-Nad.
|#5Shei-NadFeb 24, 2004 8:44:31||I am. |
I think my email is in my login info, but if not:
Anyways, thanks for the help.
I'll probably post some more ideas and a sketch of the class, PrCs next week or so, for those interested...
|#6GrummoreFeb 24, 2004 9:09:30||I still have your doc Kamelion, do you want me to post it on my web site?|
|#7KamelionFeb 24, 2004 9:17:42|
I still have your doc Kamelion, do you want me to post it on my web site?
Well, as I recall it had some issues with the feats and class abilities that needed resolving - I haven't looked at it in a while. I'll send you the most recent copy (in case yours is an old one) - you can post that if you like but be sure to note that it's under review
|#8GrummoreFeb 24, 2004 11:30:09|
Originally posted by Kamelion
Good, dont worry, I will quote it as "under review"
|#9Shei-NadMar 02, 2004 18:36:28||Ok. I have a lot of ideas for traders now, so much that I think its going to be the first thing I work on afetr completing my base converison.|
Anyways, here is the trader base class (heavily inspired by the Courtier of the Rokugan campaign setting):
Abilities: Charisma is most important, followed by Intelligence for skills, and Wisdom for some abilities and perceptive advantages.
Hit Dice: d6.
Class Skills: Appraise, Bargain (new skill from my conversion), Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Knowledge(geo), Knowledge(local), Knowledge(nobility), Language (or Speak language in standard D&D), Listen, Profession, Search, Sense Motive, Spot.
Skill Points: 8.
Weapons: Dagger, Club, Heavy Crossbow, Light Crossbow, Light Mace and Sap. (UA: Common group + any 1 group )
Base Attack Bonus: Bad.
Good Saves: Reflex and Will
1- Funds: Charismatic traders always manage to find some funding to start their careers. At character creation, a trader recieves a bonus 50cp for each point of charisma bonus she has (if any) to add to her starting funds. Multiclkass traders who pick up their first level in the trader class at a later time do not recieve this starting boon.
1- Negociator: Traders shine in negociation of any kind, and all are quite adept at it. At first level, a trader recieves a +4 competence bonus to any charisma-related check that includes some form of negociation (not feinting in combat or perform checks)
1- Trade Tongue: Traders recieve Common as a bonus language at first level.
2- Skill Focus(bargain): Traders recieve this feat for free at second level. (replace by Skill Focus(diplomacy) is you don't use Bargain)
3- Fluency: At third level, traders are already very good communicators. They gain a +1 competence bonus to any language checks, even with languages they are not proficient with. This bonus increases for every 3 trader levels the character gains thereafter. (replace this bonus by a free language proficiency in standard D&D for each 3 levels)
4- Trade Secret: At fourth level and every 3 levels thereafter, the trader gains a special ability related tohis craft. She may choose between any of the following abilities. Note that all monetary values expressed in cps below can be substituted by other valuables of equal or greater value:
Appeal of Gain: The trader may make some irresistible offer to potential attackers in exchange for his safety. When faced with hostile humanoids, and as long as the trader or his allies are not attacking them, the trader may offer 25cp per attacker to receive the benefits of a sanctuary effect on herself. Any person who was offered money and attempts to attack or target the trader with any negative effect must make a Will save against a DC of 10+half trader level+Cha modifier or be unable to harm the trader. The trader may also protect additionnal targets with this ability, but she must then offer an additional 25cp for each of them. Each time the trader doubles the ransom, the DC of this ability may be increased by 2. Note that a trader must offer the ransom immediately to the targets for this ability to work.
Buy Loyalty: In a non-combat situation, a trader can offer 25cp to a person of indifferent attitude in order to affect him as per charm person with a DC of 10+half trader level+Cha modifier. The trader may increase the DC of the effect by 2 by doubling the amount of cps offered. These adjustments stack. The trader may also attemp this with a target of unfriendly attitude, but the amount of cps spent must be doubled.
Exploit Weakness: When making an opposed Charisma-, Intelligence- or Wisdom-related check, the opponent of the trader must use the lowest of the these three abilities as her ability modifier for her check.
Fast Talk: A trademark of the athasian traders, these individuals can attempt to fast-talk a target as part of a Bargain, Bluff or Diplomacy check in order to improve the target's receptibility to the trader's claims. When making an opposed check against the trader on any of those skills, the target must make a Will save against a DC a 10+half trader level+Cha modifier or be considered one step easier for the trader's check (Bargain and Diplomacy checks are made against an attitude one step higher, and Bluff checks are made against a DC one step lower).
Master of Bribes: When making a diplomacy or gather information check, a trader may spend 5cp per level of the target to gain a +2 circumstance bonus to her check. Each time the trader doubles this sum, she gains an additionnal +2 bonus to her check.
Promise of Wealth: Traders can offer 5cp per level of an ally as a reward for some action to grant him a +1 morale bonus to attack rolls and Will saves against fear for 1 minute per level of the trader. The trader may affect any number of allies, but the reward must be offered to all who recieve the bonus provided by this ability.
Read Faces: Traders become very accustomed to reading other people's nonverbal language when dealing with them. As such, a trader who can see a person can always take 10 on any Sense Motive checks with that target.
Trader's Eye: Take 10 on any Appraise check made with common items, and recieve a +4 competence bonus to Appraise rare items. Also, the trader recieves a +4 competence bonus on Search checks made to find valuable items.
Wise choices: Traders know that they do not fare well in combat, and wise ones learn a few tricks to keep them alive. Whenever a trader fights defensivly or takes a total defense action, he gains a dodge bonus to AC equaling his Wisdom bonus, if any.
Wisened words: Traders apply the tricks of their trade to their dealings with others. She can apply her Wisdom modifier to any Charisma-related checks related to social interaction (not feinting in combat or perform checks). A trader may only select this ability at 10th level or higher.
5- Versatility: at 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th level, the trader chooses 2 skills which become trader class skills from this point on. Typical traders learn many subterfuge skills throughout their careers.
So there you have it. I'd really like comments.
If I can make one myself, the idea to spend cps for effects resembling spells comes from the fact that casting a spell from a scroll would cost as much. traders simply would learn to do this naturally. The idea of them using money for abilities is interesting IMO, and adds flavor to that class.
In the futur (hopefully, a near one), I will have a regional feat for each trading house (much like the barbarian lodge feats of FR), prestige classes for Agents of all Major Houses, which will be 5 level prestige classes with different requirements (counting the feat I just mentioned), Wealth and one ability at first level, Trader abilities at 2nd and 4th, and Leadership at 5th. Their will also be a Dune trader Prestige Class, a Trade Lord one (kind of the archmage of traders), and different prestige for each houses workers (Tsalaxa Mercenary and Wavir Counterspy already in project)
Hope to be able to post more soon, and hope I hear from you!
|#10Shei-NadMar 03, 2004 10:04:47||uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhuhuhuhuhu nobody cares!!! |
just putting it back to the top in the hopes someone will comment.
|#11elonarcMar 03, 2004 12:39:48||You did nice work, Shei-Nad. I will use this class in my campaign, as I also think DS could use a Trader class. Finally a class with lots of skill points (and cool abilties!) without being an assassin (like the rogue).|
|#12Shei-NadMar 03, 2004 13:08:02||:D |
I'm happy now. Thank you!
I'm glad that you're using it. I'll be posting other trader stuff as I develop them later, if anyone's interested.
If someone has ideas to contribute, it would be nice
|#13elonarcMar 03, 2004 13:16:01|
Exploit Weakness: When making an opposed Charisma, Intelligence or Wisdom check, the opponent of the trader must use the lowest of the these three abilities as her modifier.
Do you actually mean that or do you mean an opposed Cha-, Int- or Wis-RELATED check?
How about a bonus to leadership score? Perhaps with a restriction "only to other traders, rgoues or bards" so the trader doesn't become a commander of armies.
Just some ideas...
|#14Shei-NadMar 03, 2004 13:25:16|
Originally posted by Elonarc
Yes that's it... I was just rereading myself before I saw your post and thought I'd have to add that. Its for any skill check using those modifiers. The opponent has to use his worse one. That ability was originally presented in Rokugan with the Courtier.
I'll make the necessary corrections.
I had thought about this, but I've decided to put that in the prestige classes of agent and of course, Trade lord.
Very welcome they are!
|#15zombiegleemaxMar 03, 2004 15:02:56||That is a pretty good conversion. I definitely agree that Dark Sun needs a Trader class, as the merchant houses are a huge part of Athas.|
I REALLY like the idea of regional feats for members of the merchant houses. That will add so much to each of the cities and the merchant houses therein, as each city is so different
|#16GrummoreMar 03, 2004 15:17:12||How about taking your Trader, Kamelion Trader and mine and try to build a classes and a PrCs trader?|
|#17Shei-NadMar 04, 2004 4:36:46|
Originally posted by Alemander
|#18Shei-NadMar 04, 2004 5:01:45|
Originally posted by Grummore
Well, I haven't seen the trader class of Kamelion, and though I think you said you would post it on your site, Grummore, I can't really find it. I'd be glad to have a look though...
Anyways, I wouldn't mind puting ideas in common and to the test in order to build a common trader class that really works, though I think this one has good potential.
The main reason is because I tried to base it on an already existing d20 non-combattant, social encounters-oriented class (the Courtier of Rokugan) in order to have some measure of comparison and balacing.
However, I'd be glad to discuss specifics of it, or things you guys think should be added or taken away from it, based on what your own designs were.
Thanks for your contributions
|#19KamelionMar 04, 2004 5:17:08||Shei, I thought I'd emailed you a copy a couple of weeks back. Ho hum - sent another one to your hotmail account just in case|
|#20Shei-NadMar 04, 2004 11:40:24||Oh! :embarrass |
The thing is my filter is so high it ended up in junk mail and I didn't check... Sorry! Going now...
|#21KamelionMar 04, 2004 13:25:10|
Originally posted by Shei-Nad
Heh, no worries. You may find the urge to send it back there anyway once you're done :D Enjoy...