Actually I can't be 100% sure it is dragon magic, but since both items draw power from Sadira at one time or another, and dragon magic is the only magic I know of that uses animal life to power it, that's what I'm going with.
I think it can be said with fair certainty that Nok is not a dragon, nor even a low level defiler. Assuming he actually does use arcane magic, it would have to be preserving magic or his tribesmen would have killed him long ago. He does seem to be a fairly powerful mindbender, but that's never been enough to use dragon magic, at least in anything I've read.
One possibility is that he stole them/won them/etc from a dragon or maybe Rajaat, but it seems unlikely that he would be willing to use something so contrary to his very stringent outlook on life (he's not like Sadira who is willing to defile it the situation calls for it).
Has anyone come up with a good solution to this? Thoughts?
On a related note, why are he and Ktandeo so willing to use this apparently more deadly form of magic, while being so opposed to defiling plants?
-both draw energy from animals rather than plants
-both appear to be stronger than ordinary magic, and probably stronger than defiling (otherwise I'm sure the SK's wouldn't hesitate to defile)
-both require obsidian spheres as a necessary focus.
The only difference that I can see is that nok's cane required a command word, while SK's did not...
In Amber enchantress, I remember Nok returned to take back his cane from Sadira. IIRC, he was a powerful arcane spellcaster. I remember that he was ruthless, and his tribesmen were willing to walk across fire for him. I am not sure if he defiled or not, but if he did, i don't think his tribe would do any more than blink.
Edit: doubly beaten ;)
All before Rajaat came along...
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
It may have been an attempt by Nok, whom I believe was actually a Preserver Halfling (I know, 2e says that's a no-no, but hey, keeping it simple, it makes sense), who may have also had levels in Psion.
Why does everyone keep forgetting that in the first box set halflings could be preservers, they were just only illusionsts though.
Anyways, I agree, Nok was definately a preserver with some levels in psion.
We embraced the apparent contradiction as a source of story ideas (my players are very keen on the "is Sadira a defiler or not?" storyline). Given that Ktandeo helped make the cane, it raises the possibility that it was Ktandeo who brought the obsidian orb into the equation. Where - or who - did he get the idea from?
Originally posted by Kamelion
We're dealing with this exact story point in my game at the moment. We are playing around with the idea that the cane was created to allow preservers to boost their spellpower to match that of defilers without defiling the land. In other words, it uses the same kind of magic as dragons do in that it draws its energy from the caster and those nearby. Is this "evil" in the same way that defiling the land is "evil"? Or is it just self-sacrifice for a greater cause? Or a quick temptation to greater evil?
We embraced the apparent contradiction as a source of story ideas (my players are very keen on the "is Sadira a defiler or not?" storyline). Given that Ktandeo helped make the cane, it raises the possibility that it was Ktandeo who brought the obsidian orb into the equation. Where - or who - did he get the idea from?
I'd say that, as long as it is used in moderation, as with preserver magic, the use of the cane falls into the realm of a "neutral" act - the act of self-control to not kill combined with the stealing of life energies kinda balances the equasion. Using it to kill that way, however, I'd deem as an evil act.
Ktandeo could have figured out the Obsidian Orb part - maybe he spied on or infiltrated somewhere and saw a Dragon-Monarch use their obsidian. Maybe he stole one from under Kalak's nose. Heck, maybe he found one in the ruins of Kalidnay (who says the orbs with Klaid-Ma's mind were the only ones he had...).
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
My take on it has to do with my write-up on Empowered Obsidian Orbs. asically, the orbs that Ktaendo had were somehow changed to use a more preserver-technique of energy gatehring (instead of killing people straight out, it would take a little energy from everyone within it's range). It may have been an attempt by Nok, whom I believe was actually a Preserver Halfling (I know, 2e says that's a no-no, but hey, keeping it simple, it makes sense), who may have also had levels in Psion. He could have manufactured a form of Empowered Obsidian Orb that worked a little different, then rigged it up into the items that Ktaendo had.
To those of you who have the PP novels fresh in memory( I dont: been a while) do you recal reading about Nok casting magic as preserver do?? If not, he may be a Druid which to me make more sence.
As a side note: altought I dont remember it(how they were used in the PP novels.) the obsidian orbs could simply be some Psionic items.-- like those which were a plenty during the Green age. (condemned ruffians's spirits imbued for eternity in obsidian orbs which were then used as psionic items for different tasks:travel, guardians etc) Those Orbs can still be found in some bizarre tunnels under the Tyr region and beyond(probably)
Originally posted by Pennarin
Mach I would still postulate that it takes an arcane spellcaster behind the wheel or with the great number of orbs during the pre-magic Green Age there would have been thousands of orb-magic users.
All before Rajaat came along...
Hu! there were a lot of orb-psionic users in the green age.( almost all condemned thief, killers and the like were put to death and *spiritied inside an obsidian orb to * pay their dept to society*
Originally posted by Mach2.5
From the *ack* Mind Lords of the Last Sea book, we get a glimpse at the purvasive use of obsidian orbs as psionically empowered devices fueling all sorts of strange things during that age. It would stand to reason that one need not be a dragon, or even practicing 'dragon-magic' to use, enchant (or whatever the current psi term is), or manipulate an obsidian orb.
I see I'm not the only one with the klnowledge of those psionic orbs..... Ho well made my point!!
I always felt that the reason dragon magic used animal life was because animal life is more "potent" than that of plants, hence the magic that results is stronger. And if avangions are to be using spells of equal potency, it stands to reason (using this line of reasoning of course) that the life force they use is as strong as that used by dragons. That is, maybe they also draw from animals, albeit more carefully, just as with plants.
Of course since avangions are never referenced as using obsidian for basically anything, and obsidian is always listed as a necessary focus for tapping animal life, the idea is problematic. Still, it's something to think about. Are there any other ideas about this?
Originally posted by CSK
Has anybody given thought to where avangion magic comes from? Obviously the Dark Sun setting dictates that it be some form of life force, but which exactly?
I always felt that the reason dragon magic used animal life was because animal life is more "potent" than that of plants, hence the magic that results is stronger. And if avangions are to be using spells of equal potency, it stands to reason (using this line of reasoning of course) that the life force they use is as strong as that used by dragons. That is, maybe they also draw from animals, albeit more carefully, just as with plants.
Of course since avangions are never referenced as using obsidian for basically anything, and obsidian is always listed as a necessary focus for tapping animal life, the idea is problematic. Still, it's something to think about. Are there any other ideas about this?
I have been working along a concept based off a piece of information found in the Tribe of One series - Avangions gain their power from items consumed during the metamorphosis. I've been thinking along the lines of that as they progress through it, they begin to produce a "well" of energy, of sorts inside themselves, and eventually become the equivalent of their own "Tree of Life", becoming a spellcaster that no longer relies on external energies to cast spells. I'm planning on including a write-up on Avangion Magic on my site soon to help with this.
Please do note - I'm not taking *everything* from the Tribe of One series about Avangions. I've built them up according to the 2E rules, but there was.... very little information about their magic in 2E, and I felt that they should have something unique to themselves as well. The "Tree of Life" concept I've built because of the (IIRC) relationship between Oronis and a Pyreen (the one which "cleansed" him from his defiling ways). It's been a little while since I reviewed that, however I was thinking that maybe the Pyreen (or another druid) might have influenced some of the Avangion metamorphosis design.
As for obsidion orbs, that material seems to have special properties in focusing psionic power, arcane magical power (defilers and preservers) - and i believe power from the grey and black (ie orbs for the shadow giants etc)
Take it to it's natural conclusion - Obsidion on Athas acts as a meta physical focus for all types of power, including elemental / divine magic (druids and so on)
Thus i would come to the following conclusion:
* Orb is a psionic artifact
* Cane was created by a Preserver / Druid in ages past
* Can and Orb together can amplify any 'magical' or psionic power.
My .02p
It's just a slightly different perspective from what you had mentioned above. One which I feel allows for more customization of what the orbs can do for each case.
Originally posted by Jihun-Nish
I see I'm not the only one with the klnowledge of those psionic orbs..... Ho well made my point!!
They're called "Guardians" in Saragar and, like Jihun-Nish says, the majority were criminals in life who were stripped of their identities (and bodies) and embedded in obsidian orbs. And isn't there a partially sentient one in CbtSS? At any rate, they're included in ToA as a template, along with 4 samples
Could a preserver use a druids orb? i think they could... given time...
thoughts?
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
I was going to head that direction with my empowered obsidian orbs originally, however I felt that making them work as such would be..... overgeneralizing their abilities. So, I designed them for my site to be more specific - something along the lines of that different orbs were used for different things. The ones found in Saragar which the guardians are stored in were designed to hold souls like they do, and had a specific task. The ones the dragons use also were designed for a specific task (enhance defiling magical power), while the ones that were used by Ktandeo on his necklace and cane were designed to enhance preserver magical power. They have the same basic elements, however there are some small differences vin how they were "empowered". Sort of like the differences between a butter knife and a throwing knife. Same materials, just made for different purposes. However, I'll agree that they are all empowered through psionic energy.
It's just a slightly different perspective from what you had mentioned above. One which I feel allows for more customization of what the orbs can do for each case.
They're called "Guardians" in Saragar and, like Jihun-Nish says, the majority were criminals in life who were stripped of their identities (and bodies) and embedded in obsidian orbs. And isn't there a partially sentient one in CbtSS? At any rate, they're included in ToA as a template, along with 4 samples
My mistake then. While I'm not digging the Mind Lords book out (for fear of remembering all the horrible things in there that I've burned from my mind), I could have sworn there were more example uses for obsidian orbs than just the guardians. Ahh well.
My mistake then. While I'm not digging the Mind Lords book out (for fear of remembering all the horrible things in there that I've burned from my mind), I could have sworn there were more example uses for obsidian orbs than just the guardians. Ahh well.
Oh, I'm sure there are too
. I was just clarifying Jihun-Nish's reference to the imprisoned criminals. "Guardians" is a bit of misnomer, imho, as only some of the acted in a guard capacity. The laborer type carried out physical tasks, acted as transportation, f.ex. From what's in Mind Lords and CbtSS, I formed the impression that these orbs were an integral part of Green Age "technology" and must have been much more widespread than Saragar's prolific use of them as border guards.Originally posted by Jihun-Nish
To those of you who have the PP novels fresh in memory( I dont: been a while) do you recal reading about Nok casting magic as preserver do?? If not, he may be a Druid which to me make more sence.
Here are some quotes about hafling being preservers:
- PP1, p.289: "The halflings were again banking their mounts. Unfortunately, this time the riders were holding their palms toward the forest, collecting the energy to cast a spell."
- WJ, p.23: "However, all halfling chiefs are Preservers...".
And about obsidian and magic:
- PP1, p.330: Sadira: "Obsidian isn't magical, it's just a tool. Like any tool, it's only as powerful as the person using it... To a hunter, it's just a knife or an arrowhead. To a dragon, it's a lens that converts life force into magic..."
but does anybody else remember the spell list of the halfling "illusionist" in Dragons Crown... ice storm, lbolt, cone o cold... and more
none of them sound very "illusion"-based to me... and my players hp's agreed
btw... gab remembered a good point... WJ says that the leaders of tribes are in fact preservers... what were the little guys in cinnabar shadows then?
Originally posted by CSK
Has anybody given thought to where avangion magic comes from? Obviously the Dark Sun setting dictates that it be some form of life force, but which exactly?
I always felt that the reason dragon magic used animal life was because animal life is more "potent" than that of plants, hence the magic that results is stronger. And if avangions are to be using spells of equal potency, it stands to reason (using this line of reasoning of course) that the life force they use is as strong as that used by dragons. That is, maybe they also draw from animals, albeit more carefully, just as with plants.
Arcane Shadows features Korgunard's transformation ceremony and there it states that the final phase of the ceremony requires life energy from living beings, just like dragon transformation does. However, just as preservers do not defile plant life when they cast spells, avangions do not defile animal life when they cast their transformation magics. The analogy of preserver/defiler holds - just apply it to life energy instead of plant energy.
It's not explicitly stated, but the opening phases of Korgunard's ceremony could well incorporate magical items (as in ToO), so maybe these do indeed replace obsidian.
Originally posted by Jaanos
Agree - most orbs would be 'customised' I think the general process for making each one is the same, just how they are utilized and the 'flavour' or 'taint' they take on is unique...
Could a preserver use a druids orb? i think they could... given time...
thoughts?
Maybe, I haven't thought about that myself.
Originally posted by Kamelion
Arcane Shadows features Korgunard's transformation ceremony and there it states that the final phase of the ceremony requires life energy from living beings, just like dragon transformation does. However, just as preservers do not defile plant life when they cast spells, avangions do not defile animal life when they cast their transformation magics. The analogy of preserver/defiler holds - just apply it to life energy instead of plant energy.
It's not explicitly stated, but the opening phases of Korgunard's ceremony could well incorporate magical items (as in ToO), so maybe these do indeed replace obsidian.
I'll need to look at that. I might have to adjust my thinking a bit on what Avangion Magic entails.
Originally posted by CSK
Has anybody given thought to where avangion magic comes from? Obviously the Dark Sun setting dictates that it be some form of life force, but which exactly?
I always felt that the reason dragon magic used animal life was because animal life is more "potent" than that of plants, hence the magic that results is stronger. And if avangions are to be using spells of equal potency, it stands to reason (using this line of reasoning of course) that the life force they use is as strong as that used by dragons. That is, maybe they also draw from animals, albeit more carefully, just as with plants.
Of course since avangions are never referenced as using obsidian for basically anything, and obsidian is always listed as a necessary focus for tapping animal life, the idea is problematic. Still, it's something to think about. Are there any other ideas about this?
xlorepdarkhelm's comment is quite interesting and has a better chance of seeming official then mine.... but to give you a non-official other logical idea you mignt want to read one of my own thread named My theory on the essence of Athas.....
Originally posted by Gab
Here are some quotes about hafling being preservers:
- PP1, p.289: "The halflings were again banking their mounts. Unfortunately, this time the riders were holding their palms toward the forest, collecting the energy to cast a spell."
- WJ, p.23: "However, all halfling chiefs are Preservers...".
And about obsidian and magic:
- PP1, p.330: Sadira: "Obsidian isn't magical, it's just a tool. Like any tool, it's only as powerful as the person using it... To a hunter, it's just a knife or an arrowhead. To a dragon, it's a lens that converts life force into magic..."
The dark lens is a large obsidian egg, if i understand the description from Obsidian Oracle. Tithian uses it, and it is both a magical and psionic tool; he was stronger in mindbending than magic so he could use the lens psionically, but magically using it was painfully difficult. Its possible that obsidian orbs work on the same principle of the Dark Lens... they can be used as a source of power for both disciplines...
I've been re-reading the PP (seems to be a common thing to do these days), and I just keep wondering how Nok came to possess at least 2 obsidian spheres (one in Ktandeo's cane and the other on the chain around his neck) that actively use dragon magic (as opposed to merely being foci for it).
Actually I can't be 100% sure it is dragon magic, but since both items draw power from Sadira at one time or another, and dragon magic is the only magic I know of that uses animal life to power it, that's what I'm going with.
I think it can be said with fair certainty that Nok is not a dragon, nor even a low level defiler. Assuming he actually does use arcane magic, it would have to be preserving magic or his tribesmen would have killed him long ago. He does seem to be a fairly powerful mindbender, but that's never been enough to use dragon magic, at least in anything I've read.
One possibility is that he stole them/won them/etc from a dragon or maybe Rajaat, but it seems unlikely that he would be willing to use something so contrary to his very stringent outlook on life (he's not like Sadira who is willing to defile it the situation calls for it).
Has anyone come up with a good solution to this? Thoughts?
On a related note, why are he and Ktandeo so willing to use this apparently more deadly form of magic, while being so opposed to defiling plants?
In the "Dragon Kings" supplement it says the Orbs are Psionicly tuned to the Dragon by the Dragon swallowing it then excreting it, only the Dragon can use that orb, and the orbs must be swallowed as part of the next Metamorphosis spell.
The orbs are a Psionic tool, not magical, and help with casting Psionic Enchantments which is magic using Psionics to help the caster deal with the stress of casting the more powerful spells that the mind and will could not master,comprehend, or control otherwise.
Thus if this Preserver is using orbs to cast Psionic enchantments then he'd have to have attuned the orb to him somehow (swallow then #2 it like the Dragons do?) and the orb would only work for him and would be a material component in casting his spells....the orb helping his mind control/manipulate/comprehend the more powerful magic and not being the source of it.
Actually Nok and his use of the orbs was always a very important thiing to me. Now mind you this is purely my opinion and how I run him in my games but here is my take on him. (based off how he was presented in the books.)
Nok was of course a very high level psion/wizard (possibly sorcerer from how he was portrayed though)
However I considered him to actually be a defiler...... and had even gotten to the point of starting to transform into a dragon. (1st stage) But here is the big thing he uses "dragon magic" to drain animals to cast his spells instead of using plant life. He literally got to the point where he could cast using animal life and then just focussed all of his power from the animal life instead of just some. This really fits with his personality from the books as he was always "the needs of the many are greater than the needs of the few" but only on an EXTREMELY self centered bent. He was extremely possessive of his domain and was only interested in killing kalak, because he might come over the ridge and into Nok's forest. (face it if he had the ability to kill dragons all this time ..... a perserver would be more likely to make several and send "champions" after the dragons.) Honestly I always thought Nok was more evil and darker than most of the SK's as he was just outright dangerous to anyone he did not value..... and those he valued were expendible as an energy source.
In 2ed, I had him written up as a 21st level dragon..... and he was downright scary.
Alot of this came from the idea that while the obsidian orbs were common in the Green age as psionic devices, it took transforming into Dragons for the defiler/psionicists to be able to focus to drain animal life. This kind of limited who would be able to use them for drawing animal life wouldn't it. Now the cane was just a magic/psionic item so I don't see it as a factor as too who could use it..... and in 2ed I even had rules for using "dragon orbs" as a power source for magic items. But the one he wore around his neck that he used to cast spells...... now that was what made me realize that Nok would be a defiler. (that and that perservers should/could not be evil.)
again just my take on it.
of Preserver dragon magic (at a very low level).