Does anyone else ignore the Prism Pentad?

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

zombiegleemax

Mar 07, 2004 10:20:17
I was curious as to whether or not other DSUN players used the changes from this very poorly written book series in their campaigns, or ignored them, as I did. I found that the characters where unlikable(except Agis), the battles ridiculous, and mostly the stories went against everything that Darksun is all about. A quote from valley of dust and fire "The pcs can not defeat the Dragon" pretty much sums it up. The fact that many sorceror kings are killed by our "heroes" is nothing short of ridiculous. I personally keep sorceror kings in the background, as it makes them more mysterious and godlike(seemingly). It seems that half the Darksun supliments or more deal with the players interacting with the Sorceror Kings, which is beyone stupid. Anyway, the only change I use is the death of Kalak, and only because it was a very early change.
#2

nytcrawlr

Mar 07, 2004 10:43:43
I use some elements while I try to fix others and explain a reason for other than "it's a book and if the author needs it to happen it's going to happen" thing, like the death of Kalak for one.

Not everything was bad in them, but there were some elements that needed tweaked.
#3

Kamelion

Mar 07, 2004 11:07:35
Keep what I like. Ditch what I don't. Same as any gaming product, really .
#4

zombiegleemax

Mar 07, 2004 11:41:00
I was under the impression that TPP was a rather good series?
But I guess I was wrong.

I have been scearhing for it, but I have only been able to find number 2,3, and 4, through www.hitpointe.com
But I haven't bought them yet. Are they THAT bad?
#5

zombiegleemax

Mar 07, 2004 11:46:49
They are poor, even by pulp fantasy standards. The plot, characters, and even the writing itself leaves much to be desired. However, some of the other Darksun novels aren't too bad.
#6

elonarc

Mar 07, 2004 11:57:37
If they are good or bad is actually up to the individual, the books sold very well, so several people obviously liked them. I personally liked the books for the descriptions of the Dark Sun world, not for the actual story.
In my campaign I ignore the PP and pretty much leave the world as it is presented in the first boxed set. In the end this is up to the individual DM, just go for the thing which is the most fun for you and your group.
#7

zombiegleemax

Mar 07, 2004 11:59:28
I actually liked the PP, although they weren't written very well. Troy Denning was one of two(?) creators of Dark Sun and I take the PP as part of the core material. Some of us might not like the "story" but the "idea" is sound. If it were up to me, I would rewrite some of the supplements so that they corresponded with the PP.
#8

Kamelion

Mar 07, 2004 13:06:21
I thought it was absurdly written but full of cool ideas, plot hooks, adventuring locales and atmosphere. I went through my copies with a highlighter and refer to them in-game as sourcebooks.
#9

zombiegleemax

Mar 07, 2004 13:32:49
I thoroughly enjoyed the Prism Pentad and I also liked the death of Kalak. Of course, I have not read them in many years, but I just started again. I usually start most of my campaigns after his death. I did not like the final book, with so many sorcerer-kings being killed off. I think Troy Denning really brought ouf the feel of the world, and I think that the characters were very well done as well. They all had their flaws, but my favorite character was Tithian.

By and large, I think the Pentad was well done, but I agree that the sorcerer-kings should be in the background, making them seem beyond the players, which they should be.

Alemander
#10

dawnstealer

Mar 07, 2004 13:52:50
The first two books (Verdant Belt, Crimson Legion) of the series are actually not all that bad, and I'm usually pretty critical of books. Will they ever win awards? No, but they aren't terrible. After that, the series just loses focus. The remaining three books (Amber Enchantress, Obsidian Oracle, Cerelean Storm) have good ideas, but really aren't that well written. Like Nyt, I usually follow the ideas of the story, but change them so my campaign is more interesting.

For example, instead of having Rikus, Sadira, Tithian, Neeva, and Agis kill Kalak in the span of about one year, I have a long-running campaign that spans about five years of game time where the players rush all about gathering components, playing one side against the other, and avoiding the gaze of a brutal sorcerer king who's been playing this game for the better part of 4,000 years. Rikus still throws the spear, but Kalak does not go down easy.

The Crimson Legion is a great idea for a massive-war-scale campaign, and I use a lot of the ideas from it. After that, I tend to pick and choose which parts to keep or leave. I never understood why TSR released Valley of Dust and Fire and then, what? One year later? They make all of the information in that book completely useless. Never understood that. I tend to have Rajaat come back, a few of the SKs are temporarily killed (see other threads for an explanation here), some permanently disappear, and so on.

Basically, I put more of the weight of the world on the PCs' shoulders.
#11

nytcrawlr

Mar 07, 2004 14:19:38
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Basically, I put more of the weight of the world on the PCs' shoulders.

Exactly, as the way it should be.

That will be the focus of my next campaign.
#12

zombiegleemax

Mar 07, 2004 14:34:32
I don't find the prism pentad poorly written.

Verdant Passage: I like this book because it brought all the main characters together on a good adventure. It does end in the death of Kalak, but I felt that it was beleviable. Kalak was in a pupate stage, and was very vulnerable at the time. Tithian's part in the final battle was also very entertaining. Of the books ive read Verdant Passage is the best.

Crimson Legion: This one focuses on Rikus and Neeva, leading a legion of slaves and templars against Urik. It wasn't as good as Verdant Passage, a lot of the enjoyment was in watching Rikus try to keep control of his army. Caelum was an interesting character in this book. His description in the book has made a big difference in how I will play para-elemental clerics in my game. It could get a little dry at times, however.

Amber Enchantress: Sadira is by far my favorite character, so it wasn't hard to enjoy this book... I was alternately rooting and berating this character throughout the book. The spells in this book were interesting to down right weird. You didn't often catch sadira casting spells like lightning bolts and magic missiles. The intrigue in the elven tribe is a large part of the enjoyment, so if you found the parts about Rikus leading his army dry in Crimson Legion, the intrigue in Amber Enchantress will probably be equally dry.

Obsidian Oracle: It had a good start, and drew you in. There were several parts in the book where i got really impressed with the plots going between agis of asticles and tithian. The scenes from the silt sea were interesting and showed how far Athas has gone. All the business with the giants was dry for me, however.

I haven't finished the last book yet. But from what i can tell, this is the book that is really the cause for all of the conflict about the changing of the setting. In it, obviously a lot of sorcerer kings die, and I don't see how the series could end in any way other than the Dragon's death. I think there are a lot of ways to take the game from there, and really opens the world up to the PC's playing. The pressure from many of the Sorcerer Kings is gone, but the thought of sorcerer kings returning from the dead is a very real possibility IMHO, and presents a unique opportunity to stop it, much as Rikus, Neeval, Sadira, Agis, and Tithian did in the Verdant Passage. Its pretty clear from the 2nd boxed set that Dregoth has his sights set on Raam, not to mention the intrigue that could come out of the puppet king of Draj.
#13

zombiegleemax

Mar 07, 2004 14:44:01
gooday!
I finally have some time after a tedious semester.

what I did with the PP is that: I read and enjoyed it (well I WAS 15 or so years old...), and then I put it aside and tried to curve my own campaign.

I let the players play freedom, and kalak died, I then let them travel to Urik as the crimson legion says, and after they lost, I let them try my own version of Athas.

years passed, and a second band of adventurers emerged.

I have gone so far from the orthodox dark sun official story line, that I cant state all the details!

but I can send the updated journal of the adventure (updated last fryday, after the PCs finally managed to destroy the tree of death, a high templar of Draj created using defiled trees of life, and by that managed to poison the world itself, and with it the druids. the epic battle consisted of a PC crashing an airship into a crazed defiled spirit of the land, while druids and defilers fought side by side to kill it... did I mention the two fallen pyreen killers that are after the party ;)
#14

Silverblade_The_Enchanter

Mar 07, 2004 16:08:11
Everyone to their own
I like the flavour of the 1st books but disagree with the stories etc.

yah Kalak and co shouldn't EVER been dealt with much by PCs until waaaaaay down the line.

Dark Sun's "feel" is what makes it so dern wonderful, and the Sorceror Kings etc are large part of that.

Would be like whacking out Saruman in Chapter 5 of LOTR ;)

To kind of paraphrase, Sorceror king to a PC:

"I AM GODZILLA, YOU ARE JAPAN!" :>
#15

kelsen

Mar 10, 2004 6:52:26
I use to acept Kalak's death as part of the history.

I canĀ“t believe Kalak could ignore that Veilled Alliance was ploting against him. Off course he knew.

Kalak let they plot because the plot itself was interesting for him.

If Kalak had finished his transformation alive, undoubtly the other SKs and the Dragon would team up and try to kill him, as THEY DID to Dregoth.

Kalak also let Tithian help the rebelion, and arise to the throne(to have him closely watched and manipulated by Sacha and Wyan).

Also his body disappeared... Kalak pretend to be dead... waiting for the right opportunity to show up in the near future, not as a full dragon but something very near to it.
#16

dawnstealer

Mar 10, 2004 11:54:22
Nicely done, Kelsen. That's similar to my own theory. Of course this means we're brilliant...
#17

jon_oracle_of_athas

Mar 10, 2004 12:15:19
What, that makes you both incinerated and reanimated zombies? :D
#18

zombiegleemax

Mar 10, 2004 13:11:10
I have never ran a DS game using the Prism Pentad. I prefer to use my own ideas regarding Dark Sun.
#19

dawnstealer

Mar 10, 2004 13:25:28
Yeah, but you're in Cal, so it all balances. :D
#20

zombiegleemax

Mar 11, 2004 12:42:11
We always play before the death of Kalak. The ziggurat is under construction, but nobody knows for what reason, and when will it be completed. This setup has the most "pure" DS feeling IMHO.

Hey guys, sorry for the long break, but now I'm back again!
#21

zombiegleemax

Mar 11, 2004 15:04:55
Welcome back Nagypapi!

For newer players (aka, my current group) I start pre death of Kalak and run through with his demise. After that, any new campaigns with that group start off shortly after his fall and take some fairly divergent paths from the stories, mostly with the story events occuring off stage if I'm not including them in the campaign.
#22

dawnstealer

Mar 11, 2004 17:57:38
Best DS campaign I ever ran started two generations before Kalak died. Each section would be five years apart, and it really hooked the players in. Wish I still had that notebook so I can remember how I did it.
#23

zombiegleemax

Mar 17, 2004 11:04:57
Originally posted by DisruptorX
A quote from valley of dust and fire "The pcs can not defeat the Dragon" pretty much sums it up. The fact that many sorceror kings are killed by our "heroes" is nothing short of ridiculous. I personally keep sorceror kings in the background, as it makes them more mysterious and godlike(seemingly).

From what I know, no hero has slain a SK or the Dragon. All 4 who died, were killed by Rajaat himself. Abalach-Re and Borys by the slime of the scourge and Andropinis and Tec from his shadow.

Second, who else than the other Sks could re-imprison rajaat, or in the first place stop someone powerful enough to free Rajaat?? IMHO the SKs had to come to Ur Draxa. in this matter they couldn't simply keep themselves in the background.

Third, no PC can dare to challenge the SKs or the dragon. That's the reason I like these books so much. Because the heroes of these novels CAN fight with them. Not all of them of course, just remember Magnus, Caelum, K'kriq or Gaanon. In a campaign I never would encounter a SK, but in the books I do, and that is good so IMHO...
#24

xlorepdarkhelm_dup

Mar 17, 2004 11:34:18
Originally posted by Foo Gen
From what I know, no hero has slain a SK or the Dragon. All 4 who died, were killed by Rajaat himself. Abalach-Re and Borys by the slime of the scourge and Andropinis and Tec from his shadow.

Kalak. Not only was he killed by a group of adventurers, he was killed without the use of any artifacts crafted by Rajaat. Rajaat had absolutely nothing to do with the death of the Tyrant of Tyr.

Second, who else than the other Sks could re-imprison rajaat, or in the first place stop someone powerful enough to free Rajaat?? IMHO the SKs had to come to Ur Draxa. in this matter they couldn't simply keep themselves in the background.

Well, since Sadira has almost their power during the day, she helped. But the other survivign SK's are also helping. You also get the distinct impression, from the Cerulean Storm constantly expanding, that the prison Rajaat was placed back into isn't exactly working as intended.

Third, no PC can dare to challenge the SKs or the dragon. That's the reason I like these books so much. Because the heroes of these novels CAN fight with them. Not all of them of course, just remember Magnus, Caelum, K'kriq or Gaanon. In a campaign I never would encounter a SK, but in the books I do, and that is good so IMHO...

I've had players have their characters meet with SM's. They then also find themselves needing to make new characters. The sheer power of the SM's is yet another reason I've done up the Dragons, Avangions, Sorcerer-Monarch & Champion of Rajaat the way I did - making them a little more powerful than they used to be, while also making it a slower progression to reach the end.
#25

zombiegleemax

Mar 17, 2004 11:49:20
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Kalak.

Oops! I completely forgot about him... Yes, Rajaat had nothing to do with his death, but he was in a pretty weak state as he was killed.

The second paragraph (about the SKs who came to Ur Draxa) I only mentioned, because it's a plausible explanation, why they left their cities (The original poster didn't like that fact, that they don't stay in the background).
Sadiras prison isn't as good as the original, but if you remember, the SKs did rebuild the hollow prison (and would have succeeded, if Rajaat's shadow wouldn't have overcome them).
#26

zombiegleemax

Mar 17, 2004 11:59:32
Foo Gen, thats why I despise the prism pentad. The SKs are cool, the "heroes" are not. Sadira is a hypocritical defiler, Rikus has no personality period. Agis is the only likable one of the bunch. Tithian is a snivelling weasel.

As for sadira "the sun wizard", it is powergaming nonsense and is ignored by me.
#27

Sysane

Mar 17, 2004 12:11:51
I myself have no issue with the PP. I found it a great series. The deaths of the SM shouldn't effect a campaign to deeply. There are other evils and adversaries the PCs can face beyond the SMs.


-- Sysane, The Terror of Urik
#28

zombiegleemax

Mar 17, 2004 12:47:24
Originally posted by DisruptorX
Foo Gen, thats why I despise the prism pentad. The SKs are cool, the "heroes" are not. Sadira is a hypocritical defiler, Rikus has no personality period. Agis is the only likable one of the bunch. Tithian is a snivelling weasel.

As for sadira "the sun wizard", it is powergaming nonsense and is ignored by me.

I understand your point.
Personally I don't find the SKs cool. They're just a bunch of racists. Granted, they haven't tried to wipe out the remaining races, but one time a racist, always a racists (Same applies to Sadira, she didn't always use defiling magic, but still you call her a defiler).
Still, I find Sadira pretty cool. And as for powergaming, I don't recall the exact words of the text, but IMHO she didn't ask for her powers, she just wanted to know about how to destroy the dragon.
Rikus is just a stubborn mul and not very intelligent, but I wouldn't go that far and say he has no personality...
Tithian is a snivelling weasel! Here I have to agree...
Agis, well, I partly liked him, partly not. Mostly because he is lawful good...

@ Sysane:
Agreed 100%
#29

Pennarin

Mar 17, 2004 17:40:00
Originally posted by Foo Gen They're just a bunch of racists. Granted, they haven't tried to wipe out the remaining races, but one time a racist, always a racists

Interesting. Andropinis had elves amongst his patricians. ;)
#30

zombiegleemax

Mar 17, 2004 21:14:17
Originally posted by Pennarin
Interesting. Andropinis had elves amongst his patricians. ;)

Who cares? Andropinis wiped out a whole race. If that isn't racist...
#31

Pennarin

Mar 17, 2004 21:33:55
The relevance is that Andropinis' race to annihilate was elves.
#32

zombiegleemax

Mar 17, 2004 22:57:14
Definition of 'racist' would be the belief that one race is superior to another inherently. Andropinis:
1)Is a different species than elves, and therefore CANNOT be racist against them
2)doesn't actually care one way or another

None of the champions believed rajaat's nonsense, they simply wanted the power he offered them.
#33

Sysane

Mar 18, 2004 11:00:13
Well I wouldn't say none of the SMs didn't beleive in Rajaat's cause. Don't forget about Sacha and Wyan. They fully beleived in the Warbringer. Irikos the Left Hand of Rajaat, even though not a SM, was pretty devoted as well.


-- Sysane, The Terror of Urik
#34

zombiegleemax

Mar 18, 2004 11:25:49
I would think that it is up to the individual personality of the Champion in question. Perhaps some were simply power hungrey. Perhaps others really believed in Rajaat's well crafted lies. Maybe some of them were simply so enamored of Rajaat that they would have believed in anything he said (which is how I picture Sacha and Wyan, more devoted to Rajaat himself than his plans of clensing). Sorry, I just don't think that the Champions should be stereotyped. They are still individual people.
#35

Sysane

Mar 18, 2004 12:23:31
I would agree with you there Mach. I think all the SMs had their own agendas other than Rajaat's Cleansing War. Sacha and Wyan were the only two I think that were fully devoted to the corupted Pyreen.


--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
#36

dawnstealer

Mar 18, 2004 12:55:07
I also believe that Sacha and Wyan were devoted to seeing the Blue Age restored, even when they learned that they weren't on the menu. In other words, Sacha and Wyan didn't kill off their appointed races because they hated them, Sacha and Wyan, like all good gestapo, were "just following orders."
#37

Pennarin

Mar 18, 2004 13:00:44
Hum...DisruptorX, are you saying that by definition the Champions couldn't be racists?

Like Sysane says, there are those that were devoted to Rajaat's ideals, which was among other things that the other races were inferior. Was it in Sacha or Wyan's head that we saw just the depth of the hate he had for pixies? The only thing he had in his head were dead pixies. Now if he hadn't been a racist, his head would have been filled with other stuff than a dead race, since once they're eliminated they are of no importance anymore.

Borys, in what he said on dwarves, seemed to really hate them.

Hamanu had to eliminate the trolls since they had become a menace to humanity, in his opinion, and his task was moraly facilitated by the massacre of his village at their hands. But he seemed to respect them even before first encountering one.
#38

zombiegleemax

Mar 18, 2004 19:03:30
You all seem to know the SKs really good...

For example, I even didn't know, that Andropinis had to kill the elves...

Where do you get all this information??? Is there any good resource on the net???

(BTW, I only own the DS Campaign Setting Boxed (TSR 2400), the timeline of Athas by Kevin Melka and all five books of the Prism Pentad. I already searched these boards, but I don't find the provided information that satisfactiory, in other words: there are still some missing infos)
#39

Pennarin

Mar 18, 2004 19:21:48
You can read this thread whose quite extensive (83 posts long)

As for Andropinis' task, its stated somewhere in the Prism Pentad (i.e. PP) that he once was called Albeorn Slayer of Elves.

You can learn a lot just by getting your hands on the revised edition of the Campaign Setting Box, its just 5 bucks at SVGames.
In fact you can buy everything Dark Sun there for 5 bucks each, in .pdf format.

As for the novels (13 total) its quite easy to find them on Amazon.com or ebay, for about 10 bucks for all, as many board members have experienced first hand.
#40

xlorepdarkhelm_dup

Mar 18, 2004 19:50:49
Originally posted by DisruptorX
Definition of 'racist' would be the belief that one race is superior to another inherently. Andropinis:
1)Is a different species than elves, and therefore CANNOT be racist against them
2)doesn't actually care one way or another

None of the champions believed rajaat's nonsense, they simply wanted the power he offered them.

Actually, I believe that several of the Champions were, in fact, racist. I mean, why would Rajaat choose someone to hunt down all the Dwarves if that individual didn't particularly dislike Dwarves? Borys sure seemed to be rather spiteful against Dwarves himself, at least as presented in the PP. Andropinis, I think, tried to change, and avoid direct contact with Elves if possible. Lailai-Puy, who hunted the Aarakocra actually was trying to invite them into her city, which they avoided, leaving her actual motives in question. Most of the others kinda finished off their personal pet project. Oronis himself felt *very* bad about what he did, and changed his tune totally.

I'd say that yes - some of them were racist. And.... Elves, Humans, etc. are also considered different "races" in this context. A different race doesn't necessarily mean same species. Making that distinction, especially in the context of a roleplaying campaign world is... well.... silly?

However - I'd say that in the light of them discovering Rajaat's plans.... the SM's changed their perspective a little. Stating that once someone's a racist, they are always a racist is... basically stating that people don't change. People do, all the time. Sometimes they fundamentally change, with a radical new look on life. The Dark Sun example is Oronis, who was Keltis, Lizardman Executioner (and very good at what he did, believing to have actually wiped out the race). He didn't find peace when he finished it, only guilt. From that, he changed into Oronis, the Redeemed Dragon-King, now Avangion.
#41

zombiegleemax

Mar 19, 2004 9:20:01
Originally posted by Pennarin
You can read this thread whose quite extensive (83 posts long)

As for Andropinis' task, its stated somewhere in the Prism Pentad (i.e. PP) that he once was called Albeorn Slayer of Elves.

You can learn a lot just by getting your hands on the revised edition of the Campaign Setting Box, its just 5 bucks at SVGames.
In fact you can buy everything Dark Sun there for 5 bucks each, in .pdf format.

As for the novels (13 total) its quite easy to find them on Amazon.com or ebay, for about 10 bucks for all, as many board members have experienced first hand.

Thnx for the SVGames link...

As for the novels... can't order from amazon.com or ebay.com, because shipping costs would be horrendous... and on the german or austrian amazon and ebay I don't find these books... I already looked, quite often in fact...
#42

Silverblade_The_Enchanter

Mar 19, 2004 11:26:12
I buy 2nd hand books from Amazon.com shipping is usually 5 dollars or so to the UK, so not that bad

And like many D&D settings, the original idea for DS is WONDERFUL, but the "official campaign there after", IMHO, sucks.
For example you can't move in the Forgotten Realms without bumping into Harpers and Elmister *pukes* :>
#43

zombiegleemax

Mar 20, 2004 11:35:34
The worst part of the prism pentad was how the SK's died , i mean with all their magic items , spell protections and psionics they died like 1st level commoners.
#44

zombiegleemax

Mar 20, 2004 13:07:04
Originally posted by Silverblade The Enchanter
I buy 2nd hand books from Amazon.com shipping is usually 5 dollars or so to the UK, so not that bad

I gave it a try and visited amazon.com again. I wasn't that lucky at the check out:

FIrst thing I saw in big red letters:
Important Message
There's a slight problem with your order (see below).

Then below:
*** We're sorry. This item can't be shipped to the country you selected. You can enter a different shipping address above, or you can remove the item from your order by changing its quantity to 0, then clicking the Update button. ***

So no used books for me from amazon.com
#45

zombiegleemax

Mar 23, 2004 19:33:21
Definition of 'racist' would be the belief that one race is superior to another inherently. Andropinis:
1)Is a different species than elves, and therefore CANNOT be racist against them
2)doesn't actually care one way or another

None of the champions believed rajaat's nonsense, they simply wanted the power he offered them.

1) Theyre called races, so a human who hates all elves is a racist. Not to rekindle any flames, but yes, the SK's are essentially a bunch of hitlers.

2) Actually, in the PP, Agis attempts to enter into psychic combat with Wyan... his attack is unsuccessful because inside his mindscape is nothing but endless bodies of the pixies he has eliminated. When he realized that wyan wasnt fighting back and he couldnt hurt him psionically, Wyan explained that his hearts desire was fulflilled millenia ago, so there is no psychological trauma to exploit. I would expect Sacha would be largely the same...

The other SK's don't pursue their genocides any more obviously, as they have discovered new goals. I dont think they could engage in these wars if they werent a little bit bigoted. But its not a priority for them any more.
#46

zombiegleemax

Mar 23, 2004 21:35:33
Originally posted by DisruptorX
I was curious as to whether or not other DSUN players used the changes from this very poorly written book series in their campaigns, or ignored them, as I did.

The first two are decent D&D novels, but the series goes downhill from there and trashes the setting the process. So yeah, there are others out there who ignore the Prism Pentad (or at least, most of it).