In WotI, the Dwarves of Rockhome just hid in their mountain. More than that, they let humanoids raid their own cities while they were unprotected!
Furthermore, the events detailed in the Almanacs include civil war and reducing the dwarves in power even more, aswell as losing the conflict with the Shadow Elves.
The Elves also take some serious blows in WotI aswell, but there are alot more of them to start with.
I like dwarves. Besides they are supposed to be one of the major races in Mystara. Am I the only one who feels that they are being treated badly?
Havard
Internal tensions within nations is a pretty common theme in Mystara, with Karameikos being the prototype. So I don't think they're treating dwarves all that different. Heck, look what they did to the Alfheim Elves and Alphatia after WotI. At least the Dwarves still have a country.
R.A.
I also agree with you that the Dwarves aren't the only ones getting to suffer from WotI. The elves get it bad as you point out, as do the Alphatians, Thyatians, Glantrians and Darokininians. I guess this is something I really don't like about WotI; it really breaks down virtually all of the Known World. The only country which gets out of WotI strengthened is Karameikos, which is something that I also don't like. Not because Karameikos isn't a cool country, but because part of what makes it an interesting setting is its backwardness and frontier feel.
The Dwarves though. Not only do they play a miserable role in WotI, but keep going down in the following years. I like dwarves! I think they deserve better than that. True, the Denwarf scenario is included in the Gaz. But it doesn't have to end that way. Whatabout the ending where the heroes cure Denwarf's madness so he can lead the dwarves to a new golden age?
Havard
[i]The only country which gets out of WotI strengthened is Karameikos[/b]
I wouldn't say that. Hule isn't particularly weakened by the events of WoTI, just driven off (for the time being). Ylaruam seems to be flexing its muscles and showing resistance to Thyatis. Heldann (and perhaps Ostland and Vestland too) seems to be growing in power, and finally the Shadow Elves are considerably more powerful, even if the "piece of gold" that was Alfheim turns out to be a "lump of coal" for them. They have still got rid of a major competitor/irritant, and presumably have enhanced ties with surface nations depending on how you run your campaign. I can foresee alot of tension with Darokin but the conquest of Alfheim might earn favour and increased interest in some quarters in Glantri.
Some countries are indeed strentghened by WotI. Hule however is further weakened in the years following WotI as detailed in CoM, in which the Master's grip on Sind is weakened.
But back again to the Dwarves. Not only would I like to see a return to Glory of the Rockhomers, but I would also like to see a further development of the lesser known dwarven communities in Mystara, such as the Dwarves of Thyatis, the Ylari Desert Dwarves, the Gnome-friends in Highforge and even less known communities such as the Black Mountains.
Isnt it strange how there are such vast numbers of elven communities and subraces, while the dwarves are barely mentioned?
Havard
But even Dwarves grow old, and the Dwarf Master felt that his body was weakening after long years of peace and prosperity under his rule. He went into the forge, and made himself a new body of rock and steel, so that he could guide his people for coming centuries as well. But Kagyar spoke to him then and said: "Are you not happy with the body that I have given you? Seek you to improve on the work of your Master?" And Denwarf answered: "Forgive me lord, for it is not arrogance that has lead me to do this work. But is it not an apprentice's task to learn from his master?" Kagyar answered: "Very well. You will have this new-forged body, but for now you must leave, and allow younger Dwarves to rule themselves." Then the legends of the Dwarves say that Kagyar added: "I will let you return to the Dwarves when it is once again need for you among them." The Hurwarf Clan especially backs this legend, pretending it's true, while, hesitantly, some others (like the Everast) say "after all it's just a legend".
Originally posted by havard
I guess this is something I really don't like about WotI; it really breaks down virtually all of the Known World.
Agree with you re: WotI and the events covered by the Almanacs post-WotI. I've not used it, and I don't intend to use it. There are so many events that seem so out of character compared to how the nations were presented in the Gazatteers. Karameikos goes from the brink of civil war and anarchy to world power? The great Thar emasculinated? Alphatia goes <>? Clerics allowed in Glantri?
It's just not the way I'd have run things, and that's the big problem with staged cataclysmic events in products (WotI, Time of Troubles, Wars, or what have you...). It invalidates previous work, and smells like a big marketing campaign to sell more updated products. Blech. A Gazetteer on Wendar or Hule would have been SO much better.
R.A.
Originally posted by rogueattorney
A Gazetteer on Wendar or Hule would have been SO much better.
R.A.
Heldann first.
Heldann, Wendar, Malpheggi Swamp, Norwold, Sind.
What about a Thanegioth Archipelago Gazetteer?
Or a Creature Crucible about Rakasta and Lupin?
Originally posted by Lost Woodrake
My picks:
Heldann, Wendar, Malpheggi Swamp, Norwold, Sind.
What about a Thanegioth Archipelago Gazetteer?
Or a Creature Crucible about Rakasta and Lupin?
Sind has a gazeteer, in the Champions of Mystara boxed set.
One of the big things for me was that Dawn of the Emperors was too much territory for one publication. Instead of printing expansions for the Hollow World I would have been alot more pleased to see expansions for the stuff they really only skimmed over in DotE, like the Jennite lands, Ochalea, Norwold for sure, the Isle of Dawn, northern Davania, etc etc. I mean rather than a gazeteer on Nithia in the Hollow World I personally would have felt much better served by something of as much detail on Thothia, instead. It's equally exotic and more relevant.
Originally posted by rogueattorney
Karameikos goes from the brink of civil war and anarchy to world power? The great Thar emasculinated? Alphatia goes <>? Clerics allowed in Glantri?
R.A.
Actually I was pleased to read about Alphatia going! A Council of 1 000 36th level wizards just don't make any sense.
I never run WoTI, but the world-shaking events are appealing to me, just because in the "standard" d&d game (if such a thing exist) such events never appears.
(I also like the new humanoid principality in Glantri - but is that a WotI event, or did I read it on the Vaults? Can't remember.)
Actually I was pleased to read about Alphatia going! A Council of 1 000 36th level wizards just don't make any sense.
If you consider the size of the Alphatian Empire, I am not sure if 1000 wizards of 36th level is that much. Especially considering that Alphatians, due to magical means, have much longer lifespan than others. In any case, the Council isn't by far as usufied as presented in WotI. All the wizards (IMC not juts wizards, but other spellcasters aswell) have agendas of their own and wouldn't have any reason to get involved with imperialistic squabbles.
In any case, dont you think getting rid of the entire continent is a bit unnecessary just to remove those high-level wizards? The Week Without Magic would have solved that without the need for destroying the entire country. That just takes away something from the setting without bringing in anything new IMO.
Havard
Lost Woodrake: The only event in WotI which i find truly thrilling is the fall of Alfheim.
We were just discussing that on the MML. Again, while it was an interesting event, I don't think it was properly dealt with. In my posts on the MML, I have suggested a relocation of the Alfheim elves to either the Athruagin Clans area or the Adri Varma Plateau.
(I also like the new humanoid principality in Glantri - but is that a WotI event, or did I read it on the Vaults? Can't remember.)
The Crater was formed as a result of WotI. The Meteor being dropped down there by Alphaks. IMO some further information about how other immortals intervened to lilit the destruction of the Meteor to that area would have helped make that event make sense.
The part about the Crater becoming a humanoid principality is hinted at in WotI and further developed in the Almanacs (Official and Net Almanacs).
Havard
Originally posted by havard
In any case, dont you think getting rid of the entire continent is a bit unnecessary just to remove those high-level wizards? The Week Without Magic would have solved that without the need for destroying the entire country.
Havard
Youre right here, a week without magic would have killed all that 100+ years wizards that rely on magic to survive! So the Council would lose something like 950 of its 36th level wizard.
But I still think that 1000 36th level wizard is far too much, even if we consider the total population. Let's see... there'S about 6 500 000 of population in all Alphatia (source: Dawn of the Emperors).
1000/ 6 500 000 = about 0,02 % of the population is a 36th wizard! (That's about the ratio of our real world Doctorate over the population, and we talk here over 50+ years of study!)
In my campaign, there is a 1 000 wizards council, but they are not all at 36th, but at least 25th.
Originally posted by havard
You are right again.
Some countries are indeed strentghened by WotI. Hule however is further weakened in the years following WotI as detailed in CoM, in which the Master's grip on Sind is weakened.
But back again to the Dwarves. Not only would I like to see a return to Glory of the Rockhomers, but I would also like to see a further development of the lesser known dwarven communities in Mystara, such as the Dwarves of Thyatis, the Ylari Desert Dwarves, the Gnome-friends in Highforge and even less known communities such as the Black Mountains.
Isnt it strange how there are such vast numbers of elven communities and subraces, while the dwarves are barely mentioned?
Havard
You forgot the Modrigswerg ... I thought they were one of the most detailed Dwarven subraces, there's several whole pages on them in Northern Reaches Gazeteer.
I think they are everywhere....in Alphatia, Northern Reaches, Norwold, as well as Rockhome. Consider gnomes or halflings, these races have far less locations to live in, at least officially.
Of course, I don`t really mind that gnomes are few places...never found the use for that race at all outside of Dragonlance.
The Halfling homelands are the Five Shires and Leeha (in Norwold). Halfings can also be found in mostt human lands living alongside men as part of their culture (Except Glantri ofcourse), and in Alfheim being good friends with the Elves.
Gnomes do indeed not have much room in Mystara. The main reason for that I guess is that Gnomes were never a PC race back when Mystara was associated with OD&D. Still, they do have the Kingdom of Highforge, in Karameikos, The Flying City of Serraine and there is always the Empire of Dorfin IV....
I don't like Top Balista much. Its just way too silly. Still, I don't really mind the Gnomes having a flying city, aslong as they dont have WWI-style Biplanes...
IMC Serraine isn't really a flying city as much as it is a floating one. It stays just above the Altan Tepes mountains on the border of Karameikos. The City is more magical than technological. There are no planes, but the Gnomes use Hot Air Baloons to get up and down from the city, usually travelling to Highforge to get supplies, although occationally, they have to stop in Penhaligon, much to the demise of the local Knights. Serraine is officially under the dominion of King Dorfus Hilltopper of Highforge.
The City is mainly inhabited by Gnomes (and Gremlins, how to get rid of those?), but not too many other creatures, except a small clan of Faenare. There are no air fields, just a huge number of stone buildings tiny streets, gardens and a few fields for crops and animals.
IMC all gnomes use the Standard D&D3.5 rules, although the Gnomes of Serraine are sometimes referred to as Sky Gnomes by the Gnomes of Highforge.
Havard
Originally posted by havard
[b]
I don't like Top Balista much. Its just way too silly. Still, I don't really mind the Gnomes having a flying city, aslong as they dont have WWI-style Biplanes...
Yes, that one is just waaaay over the top imho. I hated it.
IMC Serraine isn't really a flying city as much as it is a floating one. It stays just above the Altan Tepes mountains on the border of Karameikos. The City is more magical than technological. There are no planes, but the Gnomes use Hot Air Baloons to get up and down from the city
This sounds alot more reasonable.
Seeing how this thread was about the dwarves during and after WotI, I wonder what all happened to Serraine through all that. Do you think they "made themselves scarse" like the dwarves, did they get involved? I can't recall anything in the almanacs about Serraine at the moment.
Those are good thoughts Havard. I also thought that Top Ballista was just too childish, but with the slant on it that you described it now sounds more interesting. What about the Nagpa?
I actually just made up all of that yesterday, but yeah I think iy makes more sense this way. I might want to put more work into the details though and I am open for suggestions. I agree that some of the other races may be allowes, I was thinking about the Nagpa myself. A few other creatures too, but not neccessarily giving each race a large representation...
Seeing how this thread was about the dwarves during and after WotI, I wonder what all happened to Serraine through all that. Do you think they "made themselves scarse" like the dwarves, did they get involved? I can't recall anything in the almanacs about Serraine at the moment.
Well, there was a discussion about whether Serraine was destroyed or not during WotI. some suggested that it was saved by Parlatarkan, the Immortal from Floating Ar. Perhaps he was the one who changed Serraine into the version I described above? Others have suggested that Serraine was occupied by the Heldannic Knights similar to what they did in Oostdok in the Hollow World. It would be an excellent base of operations against say the Alphatians....
Havard
My picks:
Heldann, Wendar, Malpheggi Swamp, Norwold, Sind.
What about a Thanegioth Archipelago Gazetteer?
Or a Creature Crucible about Rakasta and Lupin?
I have the original Gazetteers, but not any of the modules. Where were Heldann, Wendar, Norwold and Sind introduced, in case I can track them down on the pre-owned market.
Thank you,
GW
You can find discussion of Norwold in "Dawn of the Emperors".
As for Wendar - I don't know. Sorry.
I have the original Gazetteers, but not any of the modules. Where were Heldann, Wendar, Norwold and Sind introduced, in case I can track them down on the pre-owned market.
All are detailed with the basics in the four almanacs.
Heldann was introduced in X1 and in the 1983 Expert set. It was probably most detailed (or at least the Heldannic Knights were most detailed) in the Voyage of the Princess Ark series in Dragon from c. 1990-94. It was partially reprinted in the Champions of Mystara box set and is available in its entirety in the Dragon CD-ROM archive.
Wendar was introduced and most detailed in X11 Saga of the Shadowlord.
Norwald was introduced in CM1 and was the site of many of the CM and M modules. It was detailed to some extent in the Dawn of Emperors boxed set.
Sind received a lot of coverage in the Champions of Mystara boxed set. Not quite the full Gazetteer treatment, but pretty detailed.
R.A.
All are detailed with the basics in the four almanacs.
Heldann was introduced in X1 and in the 1983 Expert set. It was probably most detailed (or at least the Heldannic Knights were most detailed) in the Voyage of the Princess Ark series in Dragon from c. 1990-94. It was partially reprinted in the Champions of Mystara box set and is available in its entirety in the Dragon CD-ROM archive.
Wendar was introduced and most detailed in X11 Saga of the Shadowlord.
Norwald was introduced in CM1 and was the site of many of the CM and M modules. It was detailed to some extent in the Dawn of Emperors boxed set.
Sind received a lot of coverage in the Champions of Mystara boxed set. Not quite the full Gazetteer treatment, but pretty detailed.
R.A.
Well, I suppose this is a better answer. :D
All are detailed with the basics in the four almanacs.
Heldann was introduced in X1 and in the 1983 Expert set. It was probably most detailed (or at least the Heldannic Knights were most detailed) in the Voyage of the Princess Ark series in Dragon from c. 1990-94. It was partially reprinted in the Champions of Mystara box set and is available in its entirety in the Dragon CD-ROM archive.
R.A.
well Heldann got a fair going over by Bruce Heard in articles sent to the earlier version of these boards and kept on the Vaults of Pandius now http://mystaranet.jamm.com/vaults/heldann.html
GW