|#1zombiegleemaxMar 12, 2004 19:23:42||Hello All |
I was looking through Age of Mortals recently, specifically the stats for Palin and Dalamar, when I noticed something strange. Before the return of High Sorcery Palin was limited to 6th level spells and Dalamar topped off at 2nd level!
It then came to me that this was probably a huge problem for many of the casters who had to change focus in regard to arcane magic.
I am seriously considering making intelligence the relevant stat for both high sorcery and primal sorcery. Has anyone already done this and what do you all think? Is it unnecesary?
|#2zombiegleemaxMar 12, 2004 19:52:39||I dont think ya should...as Primal and High Sorcery are different forms of magic...the relevant ability score difference supports that they are different. And it also explains why some WoHS had a hard time switching to Primal Sorcery in the early 5th age|
|#3zombiegleemaxMar 12, 2004 20:40:24|
Originally posted by Hrumachis
Primal sorcery is based on charisma? right
I tend to agree with DarkMyst.
I see High magic and primal sorcery as two different things. From a logical standpoint, primal sorcery should also have int as key ability, but I would prefer to keep cha or maybe swith it to wis, because there is a difference when it comes to the drawing of power.
High sorcery is structured and complex.
Primal Sorcery is a raw, earthly almost chaotic force.
|#4baron_the_curseMar 12, 2004 22:38:00||Hrumachis, good eye there. It seems the developer’s screw up; otherwise I don’t think they would have bothered to write up Dalamar’s spells up to 9th. I don’t even consider that spell list complete anyway. I find it hard to believe the once Master of the Black Robes only learned “one” 9th level spell, even if it’s Wish.|
|#5cam_banksMar 12, 2004 22:41:51|
Originally posted by Hrumachis
You're assuming Dalamar was ever a sorcerer.
Consider this: Takhisis had the undead drawing all of the magic of Ansalon to them, stealing it and saving it for her like undead batteries. Takhisis, in her guise of the Shadow Sorcerer, taught Dalamar the art of "necromancy". Dalamar's Tower was in Nightlund and surrounded by undead. Dalamar also knows how to leech magic from items and use stored arcane energy to power his spells.
It's not so far-fetched nor out of character for Dalamar to have remained a wizard during the Fifth Age, getting the power for his spells not from the absent moons, but from the undead he kept around. That's what he's referring to as "necromancy".
|#6baron_the_curseMar 12, 2004 23:12:58||Well, it was implied that he was a sorcerer. And I'm pretty sure the necromancy that was refered to as Dalamar knowing was from the sorcerer school of Necromancy. But your explanation works well.|
|#7DragonhelmMar 12, 2004 23:30:34|
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
Exactly. A WoHS was used to approaching everything intellectually, rather than looking inward. As such, the ability score difference fits quite well in-world as well.
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
From a SAGA standpoint, necromancy would have fallen under mysticism. I just don't see Dalamar as a mystic, though. I prefer Cam's explanation much better.
|#8ferratusMar 13, 2004 2:24:14|
Originally posted by Voiceman
That is why it is based on charisma. Think of it this way. Intelligence is the mental dexterity, wisdom is the mental constitution, and charisma as mental strength.
That is why charisma is used to channel raw energy in the PHB. Not only does it serve to impose your will on others (diplomacy, bluff etc), it also serves to impose your will on magical energy. That's why raw divine magic (such as that for turning undead), raw magic from bloodlines (the PHB sorcerer) and raw magic woven into songs all use charisma.
Now I can see a wizard/sorcerer renegade prestige class that involves wisdom as an important skill (to keep from being consumed by chaotic energies), but I would still leave Charisma as the primary ability.
Charisma is to impose your will on the magic, while wisdom is so that the magic doesn't impose its will on YOU.
Of course, I don't really see a reason for variant rule that introduces a will saving throw everytime you cast a spell. Wizardry is structured, ordered, and is designed so that the spell rituals are safe to use. PC sorcerers on the other hand know their limits, and can take this renegade prestige class if they choose to break them.
|#9baron_the_curseMar 13, 2004 3:07:38|
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
I'm talking about 3.5 though, since I'm refering to the stats presented in AoM. Using the 3.5 framework for sorcery one can see how Takhisis just taught Dalamar Necromancy. But I agree with Cam as well, his explanation works better.
|#10zombiegleemaxMar 13, 2004 3:32:14||My only issue with this debate lies outside the realm of arcane magic....Ive heard them before...but can someone reiterate the reasoning behind Wisdom being a mystic's key ability for casting?|
|#11ferratusMar 13, 2004 4:00:44|
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
Well, if the mystic uses a source of divine magic outside of herself, then she should be using charisma.
However, I like to think of mystics as drawing upon the power of their own souls and bodies. That's where mental constitution and knowing thyself comes into play, the key elements of the wisdom score. The mystic literally is a luminous being, not this crude matter, and their inner self becomes magically manifest. That is what the domain in 3e dragonlance represents, the mystic's true self.
Monks are a type of mystic who have been trained to harness that inner potential by a long monastic tradition, as well as the corrupted monastic orders who follow Takhisis and Sargonnas. There is, I beleive, an order that also follows Zivilyn, who I imagine place a heavy emphasis on withdrawal from the world of men and embracing a deeper understanding of the universe.
Anyway, that is why monks are available to play (according to the DLCS) during the pre-WotL and 5th Age periods where there are no clerics around. Interestingly, there is also mention of Majerean mentalist mystics serving the Kingpriest in "Sacred Fire".
Healing of course, was Goldmoon's contribution. It makes sense, given that she was the cleric of a healing goddess, and her inner self was shaped by her faith. I imagine that other mystics, though introspection makes them wise, does not tend to foster a spirit of empathy and care for their fellow man.
|#12zombiegleemaxMar 13, 2004 6:53:46||I really never approved of the idea of Charisma controlling magic, as it causes difficulty I think in races with poor charisma. How many of those races take a penalty to charisma because they are gruff or ugly but as a result make poor sorcerers?|
In my opinion charisma was never really a pure mental stat- sure it had a little to do with personality but also appearance. They should of kept the stat a little simpler.
Not to mention that DL seems to have a penchance for throwing out a lot of charisma penalties- like Minotaurs, Silvanesti, Kagonesti, and Dark Dwarves (Who are supposed to be the sorcerers of the bunch!!).
It just causes unnecessary complications.
|#13cam_banksMar 13, 2004 7:27:28|
Originally posted by Hrumachis
Charisma in D&D relates to how one looks and acts based on the premise that an individual with a greater understanding and confidence in himself projects a more appealing or forceful demeanor, and can influence others as a result. A race with a penalty to Charisma thinks less of themselves as an independent individual and thus does not have as much self-awareness as a race without a penalty, resulting in an inability to deal with others, impose their personality in social situations, carry themselves in an appealing manner, etc.
There are a lot of people who think they're intimidating, charming, or gifted with social graces or who think they possess a degree of self-confidence but secretly don't, and Charisma reflects this too (especially in the case of a high Intelligence and low Charisma). Sorcerers are inevitably aware of their own talents and confident enough in their power to impose their wills on ambient magic. If they didn't think they could do it, they literally couldn't.
|#14zombiegleemaxMar 13, 2004 9:49:13||Well put, Cam.|
|#15zombiegleemaxMar 20, 2004 16:50:55||I am not really happy with the treatment of sorcerers in the DLCS. The sorcerers of Krynn's Fifth Age are not the equivalent of 3.5E PHB sorcerers: they are much more limited in their magical abilities than traditional spellcasters, but also much more versatile. In particular their powers are limited to unliving things (whereas mystics are restricted to living things), and it therefore seems inappropriate to give them access to the same spell lists as wizards. The variant Battle Sorcerer class form Unearthed Arcana might be used to reflect these differences. Also, having Intelligence as prime spellcating ability would bring the system into line with SAGA, where Reason (equivalent to Intelligence) was used to determine sorcerous abilities.|
|#16zombiegleemaxMar 20, 2004 17:23:16||------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
Serena DarkMyst said:
My only issue with this debate lies outside the realm of arcane magic....Ive heard them before...but can someone reiterate the reasoning behind Wisdom being a mystic's key ability for casting?
I would think that just as Monks get to use Wis for their Ki Strikes, and other Ki energy comes from Wis bonuses, that Mystics use Wisdom to represent this sort of 'knowing oneself' bonus that Monks, and Arcane Archers, and Ninja's of the Cresent Moon, etc., use.
The reason that I say this is because I have always looked at Wisdom as being the measure of how well a char. knows not only right from wrong, but also how well they know themselves, and their limitations. Most of my NPC's that have a really good Wis score, because my PC's really like to play warrior types, are usually the ones telling the group to retreat and regroup. I think the Wis is an excellent indicator of this ability - to know ones inner self.