|#1zombiegleemaxMar 25, 2004 3:30:18||If I might be so crude as to demand a number of sound theories on the Lady of Pain from you all, it would be much appreciated. I'd prefer it if the typically fluffy "Lady as Overpower/manifestation of Sigil" or similar deconstructionist nonsense were avoided. I speak of her relations to Poseiden, and of the secret lives of the Dabus - the meat and potatos of the rumor mill, something I can sink my teeth into.|
|#2Shemeska_the_MarauderMar 25, 2004 4:58:56||Aside from suggesting that you use that almighty and mystical of powers upon 'yon boards, namely the search function, I'll post some stuff later on today.|
My thoughts on the poseidon connection = utter bunk and confined to 'Pages of Pain'. A good novel, but only when divorced from any connection to Planescape. I give this idea no solid standing.
And define 'typically fluffy' as opposed to 'meat and potatoes of the rumor mill'. If you don't want anything fluffy I'll spare writing up a lengthy IC response filled with half a dozen ideas.
Or I can just point you towards the material on The Lady in the 3e Sigil guide on Planewalker since that sums up my feelings on The Lady pretty nicely. ;)
|#3ripvanwormerMar 25, 2004 5:57:20||The Poseidon connection is utter bunk. It was a lie that Poseidon tried to use to gain influence over Her Serenity.|
However, he may really have a missing daughter, who was tortured horribly by blades and then vanished. Poseidon searches for her endlessly, and is so desperate that he is even willing to look in Sigil itself.
|#4zombiegleemaxMar 25, 2004 8:23:49||Regardless of exactly what sorts of rumors the Saturnine is looking for here, it would seem that this person is asking for a trip to the Mazes...|
|#5zombiegleemaxMar 25, 2004 12:51:55||Deconstructionist nonsense? My, aren't we broadly sweeping away most of the theories of the Lady in one pass? In any case, I have no clue what you typify as "deconstrucitionist nonsense" and what you call "meat and potatoes" so I'll just answer with as much information as succintly as possible.|
On the nature of the Lady:
On her connection to the dabus:
There, a list of perfectly valid theories which you can skim quickly and dismiss whichever ones you find to be "nonsense".
|#6bob_the_efreetMar 25, 2004 16:02:50||I've also heard:|
She's a queen of the bladelings
She's a pawn of the rilmani
|#7ripvanwormerMar 25, 2004 18:40:21||I've also heard:|
- She was once the Arch-Lictor of Plaguemort. Instead of delivering the town to the Abyss, as every other Arch-Lictor before and since has done, she created such perfect balance within the town that it ended up on the Spire.
- She was the Unifier, the bladed power who brought unity to primordial Baator.
- She's a clever mage who figured out how to tap into the power of Sigil.
- She's an illusion created by the dabus.
- She's an illusion created by the factions.
- She's the dark goddess who destroyed the previous multiverse, imprisoned here by all the surviving deities.
- She's the guardian of a massive portal to the Far Realm.
There's a staggering amount of other rumors, both more detailed and less, at the Chattering Mimir.
|#8Shemeska_the_MarauderMar 25, 2004 19:00:20||- She's the last surviving member of the race of beings who once inhabited the ruins upon Arborea's layer of Pelion/Mithardir. She now exists in self imposed exile, living in mortal dread of the enemies that slaughtered Her people. The Cage is more refuge than prison.|
- She was a traitor to Her race upon Arborea, and was responsible for such an act that it pushed their race into decline and extermination. She is the only one of Her kind left, but locked away eternally within a prison of her own people's making, capable of release only from they who have long since died or departed for beyond the known planes.
- She is the last sentient being within the multiverse, looking backwards from the single moment that lasts forever as the planes collapse into nothing. As She dies over the course of eternity to Her own senses, She glances backwards into a universe that never existed as She changes the past to alter Her own fate. However all is for naught as She has already died, but only perceives that single dying moment as continuing forever for Her. We are all illusions of Her dying thoughts.
|#9zombiegleemaxMar 25, 2004 19:14:13||Responses in order to all who raised their hands-|
Dearest King of the Crosstrade, you place far to much credit in the search function of the boards. I did employ the gastly tool, as well as do a hand search through most of the pre-existing LoP topics, but found them mostly to dissolve down into banal debates of abilities and statistics - nothing that I'm interested in. However, your latest batch of notions has been... handy. Still slightly more ephemeral than I'd like, but beggars so rarely get to be choosers.
Rip van Wormer, you're starting to think *ahem* more akin to what I'm looking for. If she isn't poseiden's daughter, then who is? The presence of illusion is still indicative of absence - voids are the one thing that don't exist - even the negative energy plane is (relatively) occupied. The daughter theory has been of particular interest to me for a bit of time, and I've never heard of the Arch-Lictor of Plaguemort idea. I am much obliged.
To the Center of All, it sounds like you've got my scholarly ideals summed up quite tidily into one package. Kudos.
The One and the Prime, however, doesn't quite seem to get my shrift. Ideas such as "The lady is an overpower" or "She's an emanation of Sigil" are a dime-a-dozen. A wise man once said that to generalize is to be an idiot, and it's a crime that we've all been guilty of at one point in time or another - but I seek to undo such mistakes. Specificity is my meat and my potato, a hearty dish I can enjoy. Simply saying that she's an overpower allows no thought, no contemplation - it's accepting that she's beyond our knowledge.
Not to say she isn't, of course.
But there are far too many myths that name names, date dates, and locate locations to ignore. These are my interest.
In other words, I want to know the names of the gnomes.
|#10ripvanwormerMar 25, 2004 21:24:36|
Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder
(Slaps forehead rhythmically) Ah, yes. The upper planes. She's hardly ever credited as coming from there. I think I had completely forgotten about that half of the Ring. How refreshing.
The niaP fo ydaL idea was pretty awesome as well.
|#11zombiegleemaxMar 25, 2004 23:15:21||Primus hit it sorta right.|
Four squirrels... Four regular squirrels aren't that big...
Four big squirrels ARE that big....
Giant squirrels, now where do I know about giant squirrels?
Ratasomethingorother yes? Say, did I tell you about this time with a Rata with cheeks of holding? Anyways..
It's BEYOND obvious that the Lady is the spirit of the World Ash.
|#12zombiegleemaxMar 26, 2004 8:39:57|
Originally posted by Bard of DorAr
Well, there's always the theory that the Lady of Pain is actually 3 ratatosk with a cloak and a mask. One of them carries a ring of flaying, one of them carries a wand of mazing and one of them carries a ring of levitation
|#13bob_the_efreetMar 26, 2004 14:30:21|
Originally posted by The Lady of Pain
Maybe that idea wasn't so original after all...
|#14zombiegleemaxMar 26, 2004 17:22:03||The Lady of Pain is whatever the multiverse believes she is. Since the multiverse believes she is an overpower and in possession of power beyond any other power, she is probably one of the most powerful beings in the multiverse. She is ALWAYS 1000x more powerful than the PCs.|
|#15zombiegleemaxMar 27, 2004 14:04:46||*files away several of the previous responses under "Deconstructionist nonsense"*|
As I have already said, I have little interest in matters of belief. I am looking for specific pieces of information - names, dates, locations. Speculation about the overwhelming will of the multiverse is a waste of time.
As long as we're on the topic - I recall hearing information about Ratatosk religious rituals, wherein the head priest/ess wears a piece of headgear remarkably similar to that of Her Dread Serenity - does someone out there know more about this?
|#16zombiegleemaxMar 27, 2004 15:53:23||<>|
Not seeing this one.
|#17sildatorakMar 27, 2004 16:39:49|
Originally posted by Saturnine
Then you're pretty much just wasting time looking for information about the Lady. Aside from mazing/flaying those who are a danger to Sigil, harm the Dabus, or worship her, there is very little specific information on Her Serenity. All that is known is that she outdates the memory of any who have come forward on the topic, about 600 years ago she declared that there would only be 15 factions (the ones from the PS box were the ones that made the cut), and about 5 years ago (in the PW.com timeline) faction war occurred, terminating in the Lady's edict (I can't remember the exact wording, but basically no more official factions in Sigil). Duke Rowan Darkwood was mazed in the Clerk's Ward during the course of the war, and every other factol (except Rhys) was mazed at the end. Unless they were dead. Again. (Factol Hashkar was actually a petitioner of Sigil, which is another juicy bit, I guess).
|#18ripvanwormerMar 27, 2004 19:33:32|
Originally posted by Saturnine
I made that one up over a year ago. It was a backhanded reference to the Three Ratatosks in A Dress theory.
It'd be an interesting cultural quirk, though.
|#19Shemeska_the_MarauderMar 27, 2004 23:09:31|
Originally posted by Saturnine
*eyebrow* There is no such information that you're looking for. The past history of Sigil is largely a blank slate due to the nature of the city and the revolving leadership over the centuries. The only constant is The Lady. Beyond 1000 years back recorded history is scarce (before most of the 'current' factions organized and recorded their own histories). Beyond 10k years there's nothing at all honestly.
What you're asking us for doesn't exist. Our educated speculation is the best you'll get. Go with my ideas here, rip's ideas (which are always good), or the material on Planewalker (which I wrote for what it matters).
Otherwise apparently I'm wasting your time, and seemingly wasting my own trying to help?
In any event, the speculations are always interesting (Rip, you wrote the bit on the ratatosk portal crossing ceremonies over on Mimir? I always found some of the speculations there on mimir to be amusing and thought fodder)
|#20ripvanwormerMar 28, 2004 8:28:04|
Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder
No, I don't think so. There are some things there credited to me (for example, the theory that the Lady of Pain is Gith astrally projecting from Baator in Tiamat's prison), but I don't remember that one.
I was talking about a purely religious ceremony, which I mentioned in a rant about how the Lady of Pain is an ineffable statless mystery.
|#21ripvanwormerMar 28, 2004 11:09:21||The 1998 Dragon Magazine Annual had this to say:|
The Serene Abhirati was born millennia ago, emerging fully grown from the roots of the three mountains known as the Sisters of Serenity. She made her home in the valley of Langdarma and became the Mother of Peace and Beauty, spreading harmony over the Utter East. Although she was the first to leave when the Serene Ones departed, her presence left behind an aura that lingers to this day.
|#22zombiegleemaxMar 28, 2004 12:46:25||To Shemeska: I suppose it's not an easy thing to ask. The sheer plethora of available stories make it difficult to choose - however, I'd hesitat to say that You wasted my time. I'm just returning to the whole notion of Planescape after an extended vacation, and I suppose I was hoping that some new stories had emerged.|
Ahh, and Ripvanwormer, you are a godsend. May you live one thousand years.
|#23factol_rhys_dupMar 28, 2004 19:39:13||How about:|
The Lady is Gith, the liberator of the gith races?
The Lady is the bladeling goddess?
The Lady is Center-of-All?
The Lady is Rhys of the Transcendent Order? (Oh no, I shouldn't have given that one away!)
|#24zombiegleemaxMar 29, 2004 15:08:23||Being that belief is power in the City of Sigil, perhaps the Lady of Pain is simply a manifestation of it populace, based on what may have once been or what is only a rumor. If there was no one left in the City, would the Lady of Pain even exist?|
|#25zombiegleemaxMar 30, 2004 8:26:44|
Originally posted by Factol Rhys
Careful what you suggest there, Factol. You're no more immune to a good Mazing than anyone else is.
As for the person who suggested that the Lady is our pawn. Again, be careful what you suggest. We have eyes and ears in many places and you never know when you will say or do too much.
The closest thing to actual dates and people and such that you can get regarding the Lady are relatively recent in planar history. For example, Faction War. The bottom line is that nobody really knows where the Lady came from, who the Lady is, and what Her background is like except the Lady, and She might not even know. As Shemeska said, there's simply nothing of the sort you're looking for. Your best bet is to either use what's already been suggested or create your own theories. Both have been done on repeat occasions, but creating your own theories can be lots more fun sometimes.
|#26zombiegleemaxApr 02, 2004 21:26:40||I remember reading something about some cutters finding some artifacts in one of the lower planes that had the lady's Headdress. For the life of me I can't remember the details though....but then again that is probably under the 'deconstructionist nonsense' crap I am supposed to keep away from.....;)|
|#27Shemeska_the_MarauderApr 02, 2004 22:19:01||Might that have been the bladed staff found inside the hollow cube in Acheron in the module 'Doorways to the Unknown'?|
The staff that had the same type and pattern of 'blades' as The Lady, that erupted in lightning if touched, and couldn't be picked up or otherwise affected by the PCs in the adventure? *grin*
|#28zombiegleemaxApr 02, 2004 22:23:47|
Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder
That would be the one....:D
|#29raymond_luxury_yachtApr 02, 2004 22:34:50|
Originally posted by Center of All
That'd be you. Several times in fact. :D
|#30zombiegleemaxApr 12, 2004 12:25:58||Well... let this satyr just say something about the lady.|
The Lady is, and I'm not affraid to admit this, the greatest mystery of the multiverse. No one ever survived to speak about her.
I heard once was a Sphere with a spell stored on it wich could change sigil and even killig the lady. So I think you must search for this Called "Spell of Sigil". You will never know what the lady is, but if you find this spell, maybe you can Dict what she will become.
BUT I must warn you, no one ever will prove anything about the lady. Ever. Enough said.
|#31bob_the_efreetApr 12, 2004 16:31:09|
Originally posted by The Blind Satyr
You're speaking of the rock that caused the Tempest of Doors, aren't you?
Originally posted by Center of All
Actually, she might be.
|#32Super_ChrisApr 19, 2004 19:08:53||Perhaps the Lady is one of the 'Saner' creatures from the Far Realm. That would explain why there's nothing else like her in the known planes.|
|#33AgonarApr 23, 2004 17:18:15|
Originally posted by Factol Rhys
Hmmm, I think Rhys is thinking too much. . . Isn't that against the nature of the Transcendant Order?
Hmm, maybe it is time to run before Rhys starts acting instead.
|#34zombiegleemaxApr 23, 2004 18:58:43||What about this:|
The Lady of Pain is a member of the primordial race of neutrality?
The Lady is the FIRST of the primodial race of neutrality?
The Lady is the ONLY primordial being of neutrality?
|#35zombiegleemaxApr 23, 2004 19:08:15||Or she could be a Psychic construct made up of the hopes, fears and dreams of everyone in Sigil that has gained conciousness.|
|#36zombiegleemaxApr 23, 2004 19:27:30||Theories:|
1. The Lady was one of the 1st mortal planewalkers, who found the secret of true planewalking (maybe in Pandemonium?) but the powers didn't want anyone that powerful to not be a power. They offered her powerhood, and she refused. So the powers gathered all their strength and locked her in the cage and stole her ability to communicate with mortals. The lady still holds a grudge against the powers. Every God that acends must use a bit of their divine might to keep the lady silent about the secret she found, and locked in the cage.
Sigil and the Etheral have a strong link (can you say mazes?) That one race who lives in the Etheral who's name I cannot remember was the 1st ones into sigil, so the lady took in that group of travelers as her dabus.
2. The gnomes name's are Paporod and Biddo.
3. She is the multiverse's anti-virus software.
4. The Lady is the true imaginer of the multiverse, all Signer style and all.
5. The Lady is the only living thing in the multiverse, everything else is actually dead, and she is the overseer of the afterlife. All dustmen style.
6. The lady is the incarnation of suffering. Suffering is not inherently evil, it just IS. Suffering is something that all beings must endure, period. Whether they be power, halfling, or dog, there is going to be some suffering in their life. This "above everything else. period." being that is the lady, is actually the "one constant about existence. period." part of existence.
|#37zombiegleemaxApr 23, 2004 20:36:58||Completely random and probably incorrect speculation, but, hey, why not...|
I was watching Evangelion the other day, and I was suddenly reminded of Planescape.... the 12th Angel, Leliel, appears as a huge scintillating stripey sphere, or at least it seems to do so... it's very dangerous, but the danger isn't from the sphere itself, but rather from the shadow beneath it. Leliel's seeming "shadow" is its real form, and the sphere hovering above it is its shadow, projected in three dimensions. The way that Leliel kills reminded me of Her Serenity's flayings- it isn't the touch of her blades themselves that kills you, it's her shadow... Perhaps the figure we imagine when we think of the Lady is really just a shadow-image cast by something of a far stranger nature?
Or probably not. It's an interesting thought, regardless...
|#38zombiegleemaxApr 23, 2004 23:42:03||The lady is the planes.....|
|#39zombiegleemaxApr 25, 2004 16:09:59||Good, I have a place to legitly post this now, instead of going off-topic somewhere else.|
I have a main theory about Her Serenity that seems to fit with the facts as I know them (remember, I've never actually owned or played Planescape material).
The most defining feature of the Outlands is the Spire, said to be the axle of the Great Wheel and center of the planes. As you approach it, however, magic simply stops functioning. It eventually stops ALL supernatural powers, including those of deities.
My theory begins with an explanation of the Spire's unique property: it is basically the drainpipe of magic in the Multiverse. Spells, once cast, release their energy, which drains down into the center of the Outlands and is pulled into the Spire. When you get close enough, the suction becomes sufficiently strong to pull in magic that hasn't even resolved yet.
So, once the Spire has picked up all of this residual magical energy, where do you suppose it goes? The answer is up. It flows up the Spire, picking up still more of this ambient magical energy as it goes... until you reach the top of the Spire, supposedly an infinitely long trip, although the top can be seen in the vague distance from its base. Once the magic gets to the top of the spire, it spews out and - under normal circumstances - flows back into the planes.
So, what does this have to do with Her Serenity? I figure that once, LOOOOOOONG ago, she was a True Neutral sorceress - the active kind of True Neutral - with a blade motif. Being avidly interested in the workings of the Planes, she eventually found out about this place where the Spire dumps out its magic, either by accident or by design. She went there, and was immediately awash with the Multiverse's spare magic.
This presented the sorceress with an interesting opprotunity. First, she had the chance to control an exceedingly powerful source of magic. Second, she had the chance to keep this force out of the hands of an alignment, which would no doubt unbalance the Multiverse irrevocably. With these two thoughts in mind, she began to channel the energy pouring into her to build Sigil, and to link the geyser of magic directly to herself. After all, if the magical dead zone surrounded Sigil, nobody could get in without her permission (a concept later solidified into the Portal system known to Sigil today). It was also at this time that she created the Dabus, in order to maintain the city.
Here is where we begin to enter the period of known history (however vague). Aoskar, being a god of portals, eventually became associated with the city. However, as he gained power in Sigil, Her Serenity became worried. What if his followers were to discover her source of power and take over? This worry developed and grew into a paranoia. Finally deciding that she must do something, she ordered one of the Dabus to join the clergy of Aoskar so as to have a pretense for action. Then, she used the massive amounts of magic at her disposal to eradicate Aoskar and his religion.
This action removed the religion that she was so fearful of, and at the same time gave other deities a clear warning: stay out of Sigil. It was at this point that she put up wards against deities entering the city, to make sure that such events would never happen again. This ward, by the way, is why she forbids worship of her. If enough people were to consider her a deity, then the laws of the Outer Planes would make it so, and she would have to either deactivate the ward or be hedged out of her own city.
Another result of this solution is that the Lady does have finite statistics, being an NPC who gained immense power. However, it's safe to say that she has astronomically more force than any other person in existance, as all that magic is basically gaining her levels every few seconds.