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Black brotherhood?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
simpi
Mar 27, 2004 4:03:05 Hello.

I've heard brief mentions to this off-shoot, Tharizdun worshipping organisation of Scarlet Brotherhood. But i've never exactly found any details how they operate in Tilvanot Peninsula or elsewhere in Flanaess.

Any information you could provide would be great.
#2
mortellan
Mar 27, 2004 4:45:19 A secret faction within an already secretive organization. Information will naturally be scarce. ;)
#3
max_writer
Mar 27, 2004 6:46:08 From what I can remember, this group formed when some of the Scarlet Brotherhood found an ancient temple of Tharizdun (sp) in the Hellfurnaces near the Sea of Dust. This created a religious and political scizm between the Brotherhood agents in the eastern and western portions of the Sea Princes. It seemed like there was also dissent on how the Sea Princes were being managed.

I don't remember exactly. Information can be found in The Adventure Begins and the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer I believe.
#4
zombiegleemax
Mar 27, 2004 7:28:20 Their symbol, is that of a panther...
#5
zombiegleemax
Mar 27, 2004 10:33:31 As I understand it the Black Brotherhood is a throwback to the classic Tharizdun cult Scarlet Brotherhood of the Gygax and Sargent eras, which is a bit more interesting than the Reynolds version which nixed Big T.

Now basically you can choose which interpretation you want - they're both canon. Is the Black Brotherhood some rogue splinter group formed in the Sea Princes or is it an insidious secret society nested within a secret society, with its stranglehold around the puppet Father of Obedience's throat?

After all - why on Oerth are the SB so interested in Tharizdunny artifacts if, as Mr Reynolds says, they don't worship him?

The Black Brotherhood creed, "We were with you then, we are with you now."

Stuart
#6
zombiegleemax
Mar 27, 2004 12:19:11 Tharizdun worship is ultimately chaotic and the Scarlet Brotherhood is a highly lawful society. Odd mixture IMO.
#7
zombiegleemax
Mar 27, 2004 12:29:11 Tharizdun is Neutral Evil, which is the secondary alignment of SB, primarily assassins and so forth. He's not chaotic sadly.
#8
zombiegleemax
Mar 27, 2004 12:34:20 I know, however my thoughts were that worshiping a being that could very well mean the end of known reality is a chaotic practice.

Insanity is one of the characteristics (and domains of Tharizdun) associated with worship of Tharizdun further supporting the line of chaos.

I don't think it ties in with a lawful and very structured society such as the Scarlet Brotherhood, so I'm more apt to treat the "Black Brotherhood" as an outside group not directly involved in the Scarlet Brotherhood as a whole.
#9
zombiegleemax
Mar 27, 2004 12:42:26 I suppose, but a deity of pure evil like Tharizdun probably doesn't mind some of his followers being lawful and organised (like the SB or BB). It increases the odds of them actually freeing him, and then of course they'll be destroyed any way.

Stuart
#10
avfanatic
Mar 27, 2004 12:48:31 In the World of Greyhawk Boxed Set, Tharizdun's alignment is simply "Evil".
#11
zombiegleemax
Mar 27, 2004 12:57:45
It increases the odds of them actually freeing him, and then of course they'll be destroyed any way.

LOL
#12
cwslyclgh
Mar 27, 2004 13:03:21 As a side note the "black brotherhood" oroginaly appeared in the module "Dwellers of the Forbidden City" and had no overt ties to the scarlet brotherhood (they were very sketchily described), IIRC it was Erik Mona who had the idea to make them a Tharzy worshiping splinter cult of the S.B.
#13
zombiegleemax
Mar 27, 2004 13:03:46 From what I recall of the novel Artifact of Evil, Big T. is meant to be a being of pure evil who is represented by all facets of evil, law, neutral and chaotic evil.

On the other hand there doesn't seem to be a being of pure good who can't be let loose on the world to walk old lady's across the road ;) which is against Greyhawk's philosophy of balance.

Mind you I get around this by rationalising Tharizdun's prison as that being of pure goodness, seeing how it all but completely holds big T. in check. It's the matter cancelling out the anti-matter to me.

Stuart

Originally posted by avfanatic
In the World of Greyhawk Boxed Set, Tharizdun's alignment is simply "Evil".

#14
grodog
Mar 28, 2004 21:39:15
Originally posted by Max_Writer
I don't remember exactly. Information can be found in The Adventure Begins and the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer I believe.

and

Originally posted by cwslyclgh
As a side note the "black brotherhood" oroginaly appeared in the module "Dwellers of the Forbidden City" and had no overt ties to the scarlet brotherhood (they were very sketchily described), IIRC it was Erik Mona who had the idea to make them a Tharzy worshiping splinter cult of the S.B.

From Jason Zavoda's index:

Black Brotherhood [ORG]
I1 Pg# - 22
LGG Pg# - 96,98,102

#15
avfanatic
Mar 28, 2004 22:27:04 According to 'Scarlet Brotherhood' by Sean Reynolds, Tharizdun is not Suel and, therefore not official and, worshipped only by the fringe of SB society. Tharizdun's name is used to inspire terror and mislead outsiders because, crazy zealots who want to rule the world are scary.

However there are two ties to T. A black-metal ziggurat which inverts time within 100 feet so that noon outside is midnight inside. And undead are affected accordingly.
Also near the ziggurat the 'Weeping Hexagram' was found. The minor artifact was destroyed by a paladin with accompanying adventuring group. SB does not know what it is or what it does and studies for a way to discover it's powers and possibly put it back together.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 simpi Mar 27, 2004 4:03:05	Hello. I've heard brief mentions to this off-shoot, Tharizdun worshipping organisation of Scarlet Brotherhood. But i've never exactly found any details how they operate in Tilvanot Peninsula or elsewhere in Flanaess. Any information you could provide would be great.
#2 mortellan Mar 27, 2004 4:45:19	A secret faction within an already secretive organization. Information will naturally be scarce. ;)
#3 max_writer Mar 27, 2004 6:46:08	From what I can remember, this group formed when some of the Scarlet Brotherhood found an ancient temple of Tharizdun (sp) in the Hellfurnaces near the Sea of Dust. This created a religious and political scizm between the Brotherhood agents in the eastern and western portions of the Sea Princes. It seemed like there was also dissent on how the Sea Princes were being managed. I don't remember exactly. Information can be found in The Adventure Begins and the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer I believe.
#4 zombiegleemax Mar 27, 2004 7:28:20	Their symbol, is that of a panther...
#5 zombiegleemax Mar 27, 2004 10:33:31	As I understand it the Black Brotherhood is a throwback to the classic Tharizdun cult Scarlet Brotherhood of the Gygax and Sargent eras, which is a bit more interesting than the Reynolds version which nixed Big T. Now basically you can choose which interpretation you want - they're both canon. Is the Black Brotherhood some rogue splinter group formed in the Sea Princes or is it an insidious secret society nested within a secret society, with its stranglehold around the puppet Father of Obedience's throat? After all - why on Oerth are the SB so interested in Tharizdunny artifacts if, as Mr Reynolds says, they don't worship him? The Black Brotherhood creed, "We were with you then, we are with you now." Stuart
#6 zombiegleemax Mar 27, 2004 12:19:11	Tharizdun worship is ultimately chaotic and the Scarlet Brotherhood is a highly lawful society. Odd mixture IMO.
#7 zombiegleemax Mar 27, 2004 12:29:11	Tharizdun is Neutral Evil, which is the secondary alignment of SB, primarily assassins and so forth. He's not chaotic sadly.
#8 zombiegleemax Mar 27, 2004 12:34:20	I know, however my thoughts were that worshiping a being that could very well mean the end of known reality is a chaotic practice. Insanity is one of the characteristics (and domains of Tharizdun) associated with worship of Tharizdun further supporting the line of chaos. I don't think it ties in with a lawful and very structured society such as the Scarlet Brotherhood, so I'm more apt to treat the "Black Brotherhood" as an outside group not directly involved in the Scarlet Brotherhood as a whole.
#9 zombiegleemax Mar 27, 2004 12:42:26	I suppose, but a deity of pure evil like Tharizdun probably doesn't mind some of his followers being lawful and organised (like the SB or BB). It increases the odds of them actually freeing him, and then of course they'll be destroyed any way. Stuart
#10 avfanatic Mar 27, 2004 12:48:31	In the World of Greyhawk Boxed Set, Tharizdun's alignment is simply "Evil".
#11 zombiegleemax Mar 27, 2004 12:57:45	It increases the odds of them actually freeing him, and then of course they'll be destroyed any way. LOL
#12 cwslyclgh Mar 27, 2004 13:03:21	As a side note the "black brotherhood" oroginaly appeared in the module "Dwellers of the Forbidden City" and had no overt ties to the scarlet brotherhood (they were very sketchily described), IIRC it was Erik Mona who had the idea to make them a Tharzy worshiping splinter cult of the S.B.
#13 zombiegleemax Mar 27, 2004 13:03:46	From what I recall of the novel Artifact of Evil, Big T. is meant to be a being of pure evil who is represented by all facets of evil, law, neutral and chaotic evil. On the other hand there doesn't seem to be a being of pure good who can't be let loose on the world to walk old lady's across the road ;) which is against Greyhawk's philosophy of balance. Mind you I get around this by rationalising Tharizdun's prison as that being of pure goodness, seeing how it all but completely holds big T. in check. It's the matter cancelling out the anti-matter to me. Stuart Originally posted by avfanatic In the World of Greyhawk Boxed Set, Tharizdun's alignment is simply "Evil".
#14 grodog Mar 28, 2004 21:39:15	Originally posted by Max_Writer I don't remember exactly. Information can be found in The Adventure Begins and the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer I believe. and Originally posted by cwslyclgh As a side note the "black brotherhood" oroginaly appeared in the module "Dwellers of the Forbidden City" and had no overt ties to the scarlet brotherhood (they were very sketchily described), IIRC it was Erik Mona who had the idea to make them a Tharzy worshiping splinter cult of the S.B. From Jason Zavoda's index: Black Brotherhood [ORG] I1 Pg# - 22 LGG Pg# - 96,98,102
#15 avfanatic Mar 28, 2004 22:27:04	According to 'Scarlet Brotherhood' by Sean Reynolds, Tharizdun is not Suel and, therefore not official and, worshipped only by the fringe of SB society. Tharizdun's name is used to inspire terror and mislead outsiders because, crazy zealots who want to rule the world are scary. However there are two ties to T. A black-metal ziggurat which inverts time within 100 feet so that noon outside is midnight inside. And undead are affected accordingly. Also near the ziggurat the 'Weeping Hexagram' was found. The minor artifact was destroyed by a paladin with accompanying adventuring group. SB does not know what it is or what it does and studies for a way to discover it's powers and possibly put it back together.