Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 slivvy_gaidin Apr 08, 2004 9:12:39	I have recently taken an interest in vampires and have been wondering how DMs pit these creatures against their players. I am particularly interested in the Nosferatu vampire, and I'm curious about both the combat and role-playing techniques that you use with these beasts. I really like the idea of vampires as being extremely powerful adversaries- but I also like the idea of my players overcoming the challenges that I set for them. General question aside. I have a more specific inquiry- In the MM it says that vampires can use the ability Dominate Person as a standard action. How many times would you use this in one combat. Granted, the possibility of the PCs succeding the save essentially might mean that you lose a round- but the chance to dominate a person in invaluable. If I were a vampire, I would repeatedly attempt to dominate the entire party of PCs until they were all under my control. Is this too powerful of a tactic? Shouldn't there be some sort of uses per day associated with this ability- or the clause stating that a person who has succeeded their save is immune to this domination effect for 'x' amount of time? Thanks!
#2 zombiegleemax Apr 08, 2004 23:48:13	Page 121 of the Players Handbook for 3rd edition states all the rules pertaining to a standard action. Page 151 of Denizens of Darkness states all information pertaining to a Nosferatu Domination ability. If you take these two and combine them you have the answers to your questions. If you are further stumped I would suggest using your glossary to look for terms like "Gaze Attack" "Spell Like Abilities" or the such. Ravenloft is a gothic horror campaign. For this I recommend you goto google. Search for Gothic Horror. Use terms like "Lovecraft" "Poe" if you want to be more specific you should try "Pickman's Model" "The Black Cat" or "Rats in the Walls" Read them. Read more. Read until you realize that Gothic horror is not hack and slash Faerun uber monsters die to give uber loots and tons of treasure to power monger players and DMs who can't control their PCs. Most who have read Dracula and even those who have seen the movie seem to miss one thing. Dracula didn't run around going "Blah blah blah i vant to suck your vlood." Christ Dracula is more of a love story than a horror movie. Ultimately you have to realize that it's not what is there that is scary but what COULD be there that is the scariest. It wouldn't hurt you to buy the actually Ravenloft literature out there. Grab the Jandar Sunstar book if you are new. I can think of 1 powerful item that was used in that entire book, and it was almost made to make you believe that there was some sort of Divine Intervention. *NOTE* if you go back to Dracula pay perticular interest to Harker's Journal. It takes him a while to truly believe that the count is a vampire, even with the locals and the warnings. 95% of all people in Ravenloft never see something out of the ordinary, and the few who do usually don't know what it is and just write it off as nothing. But what makes it so scary and dreadful is that their own minds are running away with themselves and the smallest sparks catalyze a huge bonfire of horror.
#3 john_w._mangrum Apr 09, 2004 0:39:01	Anorie? In between tossing out as many hostile barbs as possible, you missed that he's asking a tactical question, as opposed to a rules question. He isn't asking how often you can use a standard action -- he's asking how often you would want to use domination, as opposed to making other attacks. Seriously, if you think you're doing Ravenloft fandom any favors -- you aren't.
#4 zombiegleemax Apr 09, 2004 5:09:18	Originally posted by John W. Mangrum Anorie? In between tossing out as many hostile barbs as possible, you missed that he's asking a tactical question, as opposed to a rules question. He isn't asking how often you can use a standard action -- he's asking how often you would want to use domination, as opposed to making other attacks. Seriously, if you think you're doing Ravenloft fandom any favors -- you aren't. Good grief, how sensitive can you people be? It was just a bit of a rant
#5 zombiegleemax Apr 09, 2004 13:10:35	I'd play the tactics of the vampire differently depending on whether or not it was on the offensive (seeking out the party) or the defensive (attacked in its lair). In its lair, (where I think most people run into one, looking to stake him...), you should be thinking about the vampire not looking for a standup fight, but looking to use every dirty trick in the book. He has the home turf advantage, and it should be no simple task. In an initial encounter with the party, perhaps the vampire would simply throw his underlings at them, and retreat to a different location, say at the end of a trapped corridor, where he would wait and observe the outcome of the first conflict. As the party eagerly moves in pursuit of the vampire, I assume they'd miss the first of the traps at least and be injured or slowed down. After they reach the vampire this time, he'll use his domination power to command one member of the party (preferably a meat-headed fighter type that can do a lot of damage quickly in the short-term) and turn him on his cohorts. While they're dealing with what kind of force to deal with their addled compatriot, the vampire makes his get-away in gaseous form, through a vent, or a crack under a locked/trapped door. Basically repeat the process with new tricks until they've finally trapped him in the room where his coffin is, and the final confrontation takes place. At this point, the party should be somewhat drained of resources, and the vampire may have taken a few hits himself. Perhaps at this point it would show its true feral nature and simply defend itself like a cornered animal with brutal damaging attacks. Make the party dread the pursuit of the vampire each time he slips away. Make their progress slow down to a crawl, being paranoid of traps, or that suit of armor in the hall coming to life. As Anoire pointed out (at least I think he was trying to point it out), a straight up brawl isn't very scary or atmospheric. If you feel that the domination powers are too much, perhaps the party needs some warning ahead of time, from someone who has survived an encounter with the vampire (or any vampire) and allow them to make preparations. If the vampire is seeking out the party (maybe they foiled one of his underlings plans... whatever), have it wait until they're sleeping or otherwise vulnerable. Maybe have it start draining one characters constitution a bit every night, until they get a clue as to what is going on, and try to set a trap for it. Make the party afraid to rest. If they manage to catch the vampire in the act, have it escape, and force the party into tracking it down. Hope this helps.
#6 zombiegleemax Apr 10, 2004 1:43:59	*Pampered Version* Depends on how you run your vampire. *End Pampering*
#7 bob_the_efreet Apr 10, 2004 14:00:30	Originally posted by Anorie *Pampered Version* Depends on how you run your vampire. *End Pampering* That's very helpful of you. 'How do I run a good vampire?' 'It depends on how you run your vampires.' If your options are yelling at people for believing Ravenloft characters are allowed to have any experience points and giving useless advice to GMs trying to make a good game for their players, why do you bother coming here?
#8 mortavius Apr 10, 2004 19:21:03	Originally posted by Grimfondle Good grief, how sensitive can you people be? It was just a bit of a rant A bit of a rant aimed at someone who's new to Vampires and is asking for helpful advice. And a rant that was really, uneeded. The original poster was asking about a Vampire's special abilities, and how others would recommend they are used. I don't see any relevance in talking down to the person, or assuming that they should read the Ravenloft books and stop thinking about Faerun. The original poster may very well own many Ravenloft books, and still have this question. And the fact remains, regardless of WHAT setting he's playing in, his question stands, and the bit about him reading Ravenloft material is irrelevant. A standard Vampire from Greyhawk has the same base abilities as a standard Vampire in Ravenloft. Sure, the Nosferatu is slightly different, but not enough to even write up a seperate stat block. Slivvy Gaidin, as to your question, I usually have my Vampires open with a Dominate attack, but then vary it up a little. It all depends on the Vampire though. A Vampire who is a control freak (in personality) may try to Dominate everyone he sees. While one who despises slavery might never use his Domination power. If you think that a Vampire should use his Dominate power every round, then I say go for it. There's no *wrong* way to play them, after all.
#9 zombiegleemax Apr 10, 2004 22:41:45	Dominate is potentially powerful, but a properly created lair, properly used underlings, and the use of tactics in combat (magical or otherwise) can all prove far more deadly. It is unlikley that it will be used in the midst of combat unless the vampire feels it is safe at that moment. More intelligent vampires are more apt to make use of it before combat occurs, while less intelligent ones are less likely to think of using it at all. Those inbetween will use it either as combat begins or toward the end of combat (when they realize their immortal life is actually in danger of ending). Come to think of it, intelligent ones are also likely to use it in the latter situation. Just out of curiosity, what class levels will your vampiric foe have, and what are its ability scores? Class and ability scores (particularly mental ones) can make a major difference in how the vampire attacks - and even its lair. A rogue vampire's lair will look little like a fighter or druid vampire's lair, and its patterns of attack will also be quite different. Of course, how long it has been a vampire also has a major influence on its lair, its attitude, etc.
#10 zombiegleemax Apr 12, 2004 8:03:50	If you can find it, the 1968 movie, Dracula Has Risen From His Grave (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0062909) has a great (and atmospheric) idea for using the Dominate ability. In the film, Dracula uses his supernatural powers to manipulate the poor local priest into organising accomodations for him and luring victims to him; all the while, the hapless priest knows what he is doing is evil, but is unable to prevent himself from continuing. The point is, if well-played, dominated characters don't necessarily need to come to blows, but can be used to great effect in the non-violent machinations of a vampire with wide-reaching plans. Try it out! ...oh, and not giving anything away, the priest in the movie mentioned above eventually overcomes Dracula's urgings and aids the protaganists in their efforts against the vampire... (Read, makes his save and aids his party against a foe far greater than any of the individuals... )
#11 zombiegleemax Apr 12, 2004 10:11:39	Drifting slightly OT here, the 1970 (and alas, not very good) Hammer film Scars of Dracula has one very clever bit about how a vampire might keep his primary coffin safe from human meddling. Also some of the worst fake bats since the Monogram films of the 1940s and a surprising appearance by a Benny Hill Show cast member... Edit to add: And for you Whovians, Patrick Troughton!
#12 slivvy_gaidin Apr 12, 2004 10:47:02	Thanks everyone for posting. I should have replied sooner, but I've been mentally occupied elsewhere. At this stage, I do not have a vampire. I don't even have a Ravenloft game running. I am, however, reading Anne Rice's "Vampire Chronicles", and have gained a sudden interest in them- enough to seriously consider making a game based around a monster that I've never even considered using before (I never really liked the 'feral' vampire portrayed in the Monster Manual) Posted by Mortavius: A Vampire who is a control freak (in personality) may try to Dominate everyone he sees. While one who despises slavery might never use his Domination power. If you think that a Vampire should use his Dominate power every round, then I say go for it. There's no *wrong* way to play them, after all. I never really thought about that. Even though I am aiming to have vampires with goals, aspirations and personality, I suppose that I've still subconsciously thought of vampires as 'monsters' that operate according to a preset scripting. Thanks for that statment. Makes it a lot easier to imagine the Cheers all!
#13 zombiegleemax Apr 13, 2004 4:23:01	As far as the question of Dominating PCs in combat goes, I say use it as often as it makes sense. If a party is crazy enough to send three beefy fighters (with low will saves) up in a spaced out single file, then dominate all three of them one at a time... The devoted Monk and Cleric though are probably best neutralized through other means. As vampires are generally very intelligent foes they will react and attempt to adapt to their circumstances. Despite their power I don't think of master vampires as "standing toe to toe till the end" kind of guys (or gals). Maybe a minion has the bad luck to be so ordered. Generally they fight and go away. Fight and go away. Stoker's Dracula turns into a running pursuit from London back to Transylvania. Just about the one thing all vampires have in common is a desire for their continued existance above virtually all other concerns. Plan your fights accordingly. Its not impossible for events to overtake carefully laid plans, but in general a vampire thinks long and hard about it contingencies and probably tries to stay out of combat at all. For an excellent collection of differnt Vampires and their tactics try looking for the 2E Children of the Nightampires. Its one of my favorite RL products and should have a host of useful options for you. -Eric Gorman