Complete Divine Feats Preview
A couple of years back, Cam and Richard posted a Moon Disciple prestige class on the Nexus. I worked up my own model as well. Rather than having clerics of the moon gods, our idea was to have a Moon Disciple – an “arcane cleric” who functioned in similar ways to a cleric, save that any divine spells would be considered arcane and recorded in a spellbook. A domain would be granted as well.
The arcane disciple feat in the preview seems to accomplish much of what we set out to do with the class. I was thinking that this feat would be a nice and simple way to accomplish much of the feel of an “arcane cleric” of one of the moon gods, while still keeping the flavor of a WoHS.
So how do you guys feel about the feat in regards to the WoHS?
In a Dragonlance setting I think this feat would work quite well. Arcane Disciples should only worship the Gods of Magic, but this leads to a small stumbling block. The Gods of Magic don't have domains.
Actually on the other hand this could be a very simple 'fix' to use Bards as specialised priests of Gilean, and Branchala. Even if they are using primal sorcery.
I don't see Sorcerers choosing this for any reason in a DL campaign since most of the gods would probably frown mightily upon them.
All in al I like it, but we need some domains. for Solinari, Lunitari, and Nuitari
Solinari—Good, Knowledge, and Protection
Lunitari—Alteration, Trickery, and then one
Nuitari—Death, Evil, and then one that has something to do with mind control (can't think of one)
Originally posted by Wolf72
it makes it easier for an arcane caster to use healing spells, a bit limited but not bad ... course being the blow 'em to heck type battle mage and then having Arcane Disciple: healing might seem a bit odd.
I would really advise against using any sort of healing spell for this feat. Healing is the province of divine casters in DL (ergo why bards can't use healing spells). That sort of defeats the importance of Goldmoon discovering true healing in the War of the Lance, or discovering the Power of the Heart in the Age of Mortals.
Lunitari: Alteration, Magic, Trickery, Illusion (From FRCS)
Nuitari: Charm, Death, Evil, Magic
However, I've gradually come around to the idea that wizards of high sorcery should have a mystery cult flavour. So I beleive that the wizards should have wizard spells, but have a clerical overcast due to feats or class abilities.
So this Arcane Disciple feat looks interesting in that regard. Now, if you're choosing domains to use with this ability I would actually rule out Trickery and Magic for the simple reason that these are all already wizard spells. What is the point of taking these domains when you are already a wizard? The Death domain is more the "undeath domain" and while necromancy is one of Nuitari's blessings it is more the domain of Chemosh.
The obvious ones are of course the Alignment domains. Good, Evil, and Law. Especially since the Good domain has an abjuration spell (Blade Barrier) while Evil has a Necromancy spell (Create Undead) opposed to each other at 6th level. I think I'll make a neutral domain with a powerful 6th level illusion if I was to use this feat.
So thus, Moon Disciple feat would be:
Moon Disciple [General]
While many Wizards of High Sorcery revere the lunar dieties, you particularly hold them awe and worship. As a result of your close connection and communion with these gods you can prepare cast spells of the Good, Evil, or Neutral domains.
Prerequisites: Knowledge (religion) 4 ranks, Spellcraft 4 ranks, must have passed the test and be a member in good standing with the Wizards of High Sorcery, alignment matches a lunar diety's alignment.
Benefit: Add the chosen domain's spells to your class list of arcane spells. If you have arcane spellcasting ability from more than one class, you must pick which arcane spellcasting ability this feat applies to. Once chosen, this decision cannot be changed for that feat.
You may learn these spells as normal for your class; however, you use Wisdom (rather than the normal ability for your spellcasting) when determining the save DC for the spell. In addition, you must have a Wisdom score equal to 10 + the spell's level in order to prepare or cast a spell gained from this feat.
Each day, you may prepare (or cast, if you cast spells without preparation) a maximum of one of these domains spells of each level.
Special: You cannot take this feat more than once, for only the three domains mentioned above apply to this feat. When a wizard switches wizardly orders he gains the domain of his new alignment. When a wizard becomes a renegade, the benefits of this feat are lost.
Neutral Domain:
Dieties: Gilean, Chislev, Zivilyn, Shinare, Sirrion, Reorx
Granted Power:
1. Sanctuary
2. Calm Emotions
3. Prayer
4. Divine Power
5. Spell Resistance
6. Mislead
7. Repulsion
8. Antipathy
9. Summon Monster IX
Not exactly perfect, but hopefully captures the neutral spirit mostly. I was going for a "I don't want to get involved" feel for a neutral domain, and reducing conflict so that the balance does not swing too crazily. Suggestions of other spells to put in there, or the missing Granted Power, would be appreciated.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
I would really advise against using any sort of healing spell for this feat. Healing is the province of divine casters in DL (ergo why bards can't use healing spells). That sort of defeats the importance of Goldmoon discovering true healing in the War of the Lance, or discovering the Power of the Heart in the Age of Mortals.
good point, I guess I was thinking more generically (outside of DL? HEATHEN!!!!
) ... especially when lots of people try to come with different ways give arcane casters some sort healing power ...this gives them something, not much ... but something.
Originally posted by Twilight Herald
Dragonhelm, on a related topic : for campaigns set in Taladas, where no organised Orders of Wizards exist, and where the moon gods have traditionally advanced their agendas in the world through Clerics, what Domains do you think these priests of Magic should be able to access? ( not dismissing the sets of domains suggested by White Sorcerer and Shadowalk Nimblefeet, just wondering what your take would be )
For an actual cleric, here's what I'd choose:
Solinari: Good, Law, Magic, Protection
Lunitari: Luck, Magic, Trickery
Nuitari: Death, Evil, Law, Magic
Looking at the choices made by White Sorcerer and Shadowalk Nimblefeet, I'll say that I think that Knowledge is also suitable for Solinari, and Illusion (From FR) is good for Lunitari.
The Law, Good, and Evil domains were chosen as they match with Solinari's and Nuitari's alignments (which is pretty standard for deities).
And if you're interested in the Moon Disciple PrCs I mentioned above...
Here's Cam Banks' and Richard Connery's Moon Disciple:
Cam and Rich's Moon Disciple
And here's my Moon Disciple:
Dragonhelm's Moon Disciple
I hope that helps, Twilight Herald!
Solinari: Insight (Divination), Protection (Abjuration)
Lunitari: Alteration (Transmutation), Trickery (Illusion)
Nuitari: Mentalism (Enchantment), Necromancy (Necromancy)
Then add Good to Solinari and Evil to Nuitari, and Magic to all three. To represent the nebulous quality that allows Neutrality to keep the pendulum swinging back and forth I'd give the Luck domain to Lunitari to keep them at an even four apiece.
Solinari: Good, Insight, Magic, Protection
Lunitari: Alteration, Luck, Magic, Trickery
Nuitari: Magic, Mentalism, Necromancy, Evil
Bingo.
So if the domain you choose is made up of wizard spells (ie. Magic) then there really isn't much point in taking it, now is there?
Originally posted by ferratus
Just remember, this feat just gives you the ability to cast spells from your diety's domain, it does not give you bonus spells.
So if the domain you choose is made up of wizard spells (ie. Magic) then there really isn't much point in taking it, now is there?
and if I read it correctly you can only use/get that spell once (per day/rest period ... what ever) ...
so a wizard can only memorize that spell once per day ... so a wizard able to cast up to 4th lvl spells could (if s/he wanted to) memorize those 4 spells (one each of 1st-4th) ...
right, you guys know that ... just trying to make sure I've got it straight.
Originally posted by ferratus
Just remember, this feat just gives you the ability to cast spells from your diety's domain, it does not give you bonus spells.
So if the domain you choose is made up of wizard spells (ie. Magic) then there really isn't much point in taking it, now is there?
That doesn't mean those three gods wouldn't have it. It would be silly to not give the three gods of magic the primary domain associated with their portfolios just because PC's couldn't milk it for their benefit.
http://dragonlance.com/fan/rules/display.asp?id=12293
It's only for Solinari, though. I'd need the Book of Vile Darkness for Nuitari and Lunitari(for an in-between).
Originally posted by Kai Lord
That doesn't mean those three gods wouldn't have it. It would be silly to not give the three gods of magic the primary domain associated with their portfolios just because PC's couldn't milk it for their benefit.
Well technically, the gods of magic don't have any domains at all.
Besides, feats are always supposed to be for a player's benefit. That is why they are feats, and why you chose them. No player is going to waste a feat that gives them an ability they already had. Don't be silly.
Originally posted by ferratus
Well technically, the gods of magic don't have any domains at all.
Besides, feats are always supposed to be for a player's benefit. That is why they are feats, and why you chose them. No player is going to waste a feat that gives them an ability they already had. Don't be silly.
That's like saying Martial Weapon Proficiency shouldn't be a feat because it would be a waste for Fighters to take it.
Its up to each player to not "waste" their feats. If you're an Arcane Disciple, it would obviously be idiotic to spend a feat to acquire the Magic domain. But if you go down that road and assign domains to the gods of magic, one of those domains *must* be Magic, just because its the most fitting.
For the purpose of the feat, a player would obviously want to use it to acquire one of the other three proposed domains per god.
Originally posted by Kai Lord
That's like saying Martial Weapon Proficiency shouldn't be a feat because it would be a waste for Fighters to take it.
Yes, and fighter's don't use martial weapon proficiency feat. Neither would wizards use a feat that allows them to cast wizard spells, such as those found in the magic domain.
Its up to each player to not "waste" their feats. If you're an Arcane Disciple, it would obviously be idiotic to spend a feat to acquire the Magic domain.
Yes, it would be idiotic for a wizard to take a feat that allows him to cast wizard spells.
But if you go down that road and assign domains to the gods of magic, one of those domains *must* be Magic, just because its the most fitting.
For the purposes of the feat you also have to consider these things:
1) In the official setting, wizards and clerics are not allowed to multiclass with each other. That is because wizards are wholly devoted to magic and the lunar dieties. That means, no arcane disciples devoted to Mishakal or Sargonnas for example. That means you can't take the feat as is from "The Complete Divine" and port into Krynn.
2) Given that the only arcane disciples are those of the gods of magic (those with the wizard class and/or WoHS prestige class) then obviously the feat loses much of its purpose, to identify the wizard as a devotee of a particular faith. Instead, the purpose of the feat is simply to give the wizard clerical spells not normally in his spell list.
See, the dieties of Magic do not have clerics, and don't have domains. So why not redesign the feat to reflect the reality of the lunar dieties role in the Order of High Sorcery? Namely, as the embodiments of good, evil and neutral magic. Since the good and evil domains are largely clerical spells, it fufills the requirements without assigning domains that the gods of magic should have, if they had clerics, which they don't.
Or heck, just drop the designation "domain" entirely, and just give a spell list of clerical spells that the wizard now has access to.
Why not do it? If it's a bad choice, then it's a bad choice. That shouldn't preclude the Magic domains inclusion as a domain the lunar gods would have. It doesn't make sense logically to not include it on the grounds that it may be useless to wizard characters, think about it:
A. The lunar gods are gods of magic.
B. Gods of magic have the Magic domain.
C. The lunar gods have (or should have) the Magic domain.
You may say that the three moon gods don't grant spells in the traditional sense, but that statement only applies to Ansalon and would exclude Moon Disciples (as the feat and prestige classes propose). Exluding it on the grounds of uselessness is just silly, a character may very well want those few extra spells from the Magic domain. Or s/he may think that it adds to the flavor of the character as one wholly devoted to the magical aspect of the gods- feat choices don't have to be about how effective they are in gaming, if they were we'd all be powergamers.
Originally posted by Shadowalk Nimblefeet
But the deities of magic may have clerics in an alternate Dragonlance setting, such as Taladas. It only makes sense to give them the domains they would normally have as gods, even if it would ridiculous as it applied to the Arcane/Moon Disciple feat.
It's also a very easy way to add all of those spells to your spellbook without having to use one of your 2 free spells per wizard level on them, or transcribe them from some other source. Wizards aren't like clerics, and can't always access every spell available to wizards.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Shadowalk Nimblefeet
Exluding it on the grounds of uselessness is just silly, a character may very well want those few extra spells from the Magic domain.
But the point is this feat does not grant extra spells. It simply adds the spells of a particular domain to the spell list. Unless I'm reading this wrong you don't get X level spells + 1 domain spell per day (as do clerics) but rather simply have it added to your spell list. In fact, it specifically says you learn the spells as normal for your class.
Or s/he may think that it adds to the flavor of the character as one wholly devoted to the magical aspect of the gods- feat choices don't have to be about how effective they are in gaming, if they were we'd all be powergamers.
So you use roleplaying to show how devoted you are to the gods of magic. I'm just saying the feat needs a little tweaking before it fits dragonlance. You have to remember as well that this feat also covers classes like assassin or bard in other settings, making spells such as those in the magic domain useful. The designers are assuming that you will pick the best domain for your character. In 3rd edition, good roleplayers are given good rules mechanics too.
Now, given that this feat only applies to wizards. Given that the gods of magic abandoned their celestial homes to reside in the ethereal to grant wizardly magic (which means no clerical magic in any alternate dragonlance setting such as Taladas), that means the gods of magic don't have domains.
So the best option, I am coming to find, is to just have a spell list of clerical spells that would suit a robed mage. Y'know spells like unhallow, desecrate, blasphemy etc.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
It's also a very easy way to add all of those spells to your spellbook without having to use one of your 2 free spells per wizard level on them, or transcribe them from some other source. Wizards aren't like clerics, and can't always access every spell available to wizards.
But that isn't what the feat is for. You still learn the spells as normal for your class. So that means you either find it in a spellbook somewhere or you use one of your 2 free spells per wizard level on them. Then you roll for a chance to successfully learn it.
Besides, wizards as a rule of thumb should always gain enough spells during adventuring to cover their spells per day, with the two free spells being a little option to swap out. That's of course the very least you should be doing. Scrawl it on a tomb wall, put a spellbook or two in a dragon's hoard, introduce a few wizardly enemies. As well, one should be allowing the wizard to learn spells from clerics and bards if they are also on his spell list. The wizard is the scholar and crafter of magic after all.
Originally posted by ferratus
Given that the gods of magic abandoned their celestial homes to reside in the ethereal to grant wizardly magic (which means no clerical magic in any alternate dragonlance setting such as Taladas), that means the gods of magic don't have domains.
A little confused here. The gods of various D&D campaign worlds include those who reside on non-celestial planes, including inner, ethereal, shadow, etc. This does not affect their ability to grant divine spells. Even gods who reside on the prime can grant spells, after all - e.g Gargauth in the Forgotten Realms. Sure, there are established reasons for there to be no Ansalon clerics of S, L, & N, since we have the regimented, organised WOHS. However, since on Taladas wizards have no structure or common cause, the interests of the Magic gods are instead advanced by their clerical orders, as evidenced by the great influence on that continent of the priesthoods of Solais, Lunais and Angomais. They exist there ( or did so before the Chaos War )and they are long established.
Originally posted by Twilight Herald
However, since on Taladas wizards have no structure or common cause, the interests of the Magic gods are instead advanced by their clerical orders, as evidenced by the great influence on that continent of the priesthoods of Solais, Lunais and Angomais. They exist there ( or did so before the Chaos War )and they are long established.
I'm not sure where this information comes from. According to Time of the Dragon, the three moon gods are not considered gods proper, and instead are thought of as elemental forces of great power without worshippers or priests of their own (TotD Rule Book, p39).
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
I'm not sure where this information comes from. According to Time of the Dragon, the three moon gods are not considered gods proper, and instead are thought of as elemental forces of great power without worshippers or priests of their own (TotD Rule Book, p39).
Cheers,
Cam
Its been a long while since I had access to my Taladas material, but I'm pretty sure that a major NPC in one particular adventure module was a cleric of Angomais ( Nuitari ). I got the impression that he belonged to a significant cult, rather than just being a unique example, but again, I haven't read up on this stuff for several years.
Originally posted by Twilight Herald
Its been a long while since I had access to my Taladas material, but I'm pretty sure that a major NPC in one particular adventure module was a cleric of Angomais ( Nuitari ). I got the impression that he belonged to a significant cult, rather than just being a unique example, but again, I haven't read up on this stuff for several years.
If so, that's probably one reference that won't be held up to the current viewpoint shared by canonical sources on what the gods of magic are and what they do. It would be fair enough to say that they don't grant clerics spells, don't have domains, and have no cults or worshippers (at least none which gain divine magic spells from them), on Taladas or anywhere else.
Cheers,
Cam