Can an Irda shapechange into a Large Minotaur to do extra damage with his gore attack? Can he change into a Small Half-Ogre? Possibly posing as a Half-Ogre toddler or just a miniature Half-Ogre adult? Turning into a 7' Kender would probably freak a lot of people out. Can it be done?
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Originally posted by LordofIllusions
I guess this is why some DM's limit the Irda shape changing ability to only 3 forms.
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My old DM limited my irda to about 4 forms.
As an optional rule, you might limit the number of forms to an irda's Constitution or Charisma modifier.
Originally posted by Kai Lord
Can an Irda shapechange into a Large Minotaur to do extra damage with his gore attack? Can he change into a Small Half-Ogre? Possibly posing as a Half-Ogre toddler or just a miniature Half-Ogre adult? Turning into a 7' Kender would probably freak a lot of people out. Can it be done?
No, although he could turn into an actual infant or toddler if it qualifies as a size of small.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
No, although he could turn into an actual infant or toddler if it qualifies as a size of small.
Okay, so then is there such a thing as a "Humanoid-type creature of Large Size" as mentioned on page 39 of the DLCS? What Large sized being can Irdas change into?
Originally posted by Taskr36
The spell descriptions for shapechange and polymorph are very clearly defined in the Player's Handbook. You change into the average specimen for that race. You can make minor changes to height, weight, and hair color, but nothing major. As far as size goes, you must be the default size for that race.
Right, but as I said what made me curious is the note that Irda can change into Large Humanoids. Is there such a thing? If not, then why mention it?
There may be more in the beastiary, but frankly, most humanoids are of medium size. When monstrous humanoids get big, they are of the giant subtype.
Originally posted by Kai Lord
Monstrous Humanoids are actually of a different type than Humanoids, and not one that Irda can change into.
The only large humanoids in the Monster Manual are lycanthropes, which as we know don't show up on Krynn.
The irda shapeshifting quality should be amended slightly to encompass creatures of the monstrous humanoid and giant type. In fact, it's odd that the irda aren't giants themselves (given that all ogres are).
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
The irda shapeshifting quality should be amended slightly to encompass creatures of the monstrous humanoid and giant type. In fact, it's odd that the irda aren't giants themselves (given that all ogres are).
Noted.
1st Level: Animal, humanoid, and Vermin
2nd Level: Magical Beast, Monstrous Humanoid
3rd Level: Fey, Giant
4th Level: Dragon, Humanoid (Shapechanger)
5th Level: Aberration
6th Level: Elemental, Ooze, Plant
7th Level: Construct, Outsider, Undead
So the irda, while they were ogres at one time, due to their shapechange ability, they have now become more than the ogre (so they have been bumped up the creature pyramid). So ogrebane weapons have no enhanced effect against them as they would with other ogres.
Now in the description of the Irda's shapechange ability it says "any humanoid-type creature of small to large." So IMO this would include Humanoids and Monstrous Humanoid, as well as Humanoid (Shapechanger). So the list of available creatures for the Irda shapechange ability is bigger.
Monster Manual
Bugbear - Medium Humanoid
Centaur - Large Monstrous Humanoid
Derro - Small Monstrous Humanoid
Doppelganger - Medium Monstrous Humanoid (Why you would I don't know)
Dwarf - Medium Humanoid
Elf - Medium Humanoid
Drow - Medium Humanoid
Gargoyle - Medium Monstrous Humanoid (Earth)
Githyanki - Medium Humanoid (extraplanar)
Githzerai - Medium Humanoid (extraplanar)
Gnoll - Medium Humanoid
Gnome - Small Humanoid
Goblin - Small Humanoid
Grimlock - Medium Monstrous Humanoid
Annis - Large Monstrous Humanoid
Green Hag - Medium Monstrous Humanoid
Sea Hag - Medium Monstrous Humanoid
Kender - Small Humanoid
Harpy - Medium Monstrous Humanoid
Hobgoblin - Medium Humanoid
Kobold - Small Humanoid
Kuo-Toa - Medium Monstrous Humanoid
Locathah - Medium Humanoid
Medusa - Medium Monstrous Humanoid
Merfolk - Medium Humanoid
Minotaur - Large Monstrous Humanoid (Medium in Krynn)
Sahuagin - Medium Monstrous Humanoid
Trogoldyte - Medium Humanoid
Yuan-Ti Pureblood - Medium Monstrous Humanoid
Yuan-Ti Half-Blood - Medium Monstrous humanoid
Yuan-Ti Abomination - Large Monstrous humanoid
Human - Medium Humanoid
Originally posted by darthsylver
From what I can see about the Humanoid (shapechanger) (which is what the irda are classified as, this race type is higher on the creature type pyramid in the savage species book.
This pyramid is chiefly for determining whether your creature type changes if you apply a template. It's one of the reasons why ogre titans should have their creature type changed to giant if it isn't already, not monstrous humanoid, since giant is higher up the list. It would mean that irda who become ogre titans don't change type - although I do question Savage Species' veracity at the moment given that it's slightly pre-3.5.
Now in the description of the Irda's shapechange ability it says "any humanoid-type creature of small to large." So IMO this would include Humanoids and Monstrous Humanoid, as well as Humanoid (Shapechanger).
If it meant to include monstrous humanoids and humanoids with the shapechanger subtype, it would have said so. Humanoid-type means creatures with the humanoid type. Clarifying this would eliminate any question about the matter (either by removing the hyphen or by restating the ability to specifically mention the other creature types).
Cheers,
Cam
We've decided that the Irda should be able to shapechange into any humanoid, monstrous humanoid, or giant of small to large size.
Irda should be giant type, not humanoid.
Is all this correct?
Originally posted by Brimstone
So...to clarify:
We've decided that the Irda should be able to shapechange into any humanoid, monstrous humanoid, or giant of small to large size.
Irda should be giant type, not humanoid.
Is all this correct?
Personally, I don't think that they should be giant type. Hags are the supposed magical offspring similar to ogre magi, and they are not giants. Besides, Irda don't have any traits about them that qualify them for the giant type. And, if I remember right, you have to be large sized to be a giant in the first place, which Irda are not.
Originally posted by Daedavias
And, if I remember right, you have to be large sized to be a giant in the first place, which Irda are not.
No, you don't.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
No, you don't.
Cheers,
Cam
*eyes narrow*
I coulda sworn it was in a source book such as Savage Species...
Originally posted by Daedavias
Hags are the supposed magical offspring similar to ogre magi, and they are not giants.
Well, that's only in Dragonlance evolution...not D&D in general. So you'd have to wait and see if hags are ever written up for DL3.5.
If they are...I'd have to agree with Cam...they should be giants, too.
Or, I guess one could argue that the greygem (or curse) changed them enough that they are now a different type.
And I guess it's also arguable that Ogres were once humanoid...but as they degenerated over the centuries...they became monstrous humanoids and giants. But the Irda didn't change, so they remained humanoid. That explination works for me.
Are we going to see a better explination on all the monsters in the Bestiary?
Originally posted by Daedavias
*eyes narrow*
I coulda sworn it was in a source book such as Savage Species...
There's at least one medium giant out there. The MM 3.5 says "usually of Large size" but this doesn't mean you can't have one that's not.
My esteemed colleague Andre' La Roche has noted that you could leave the irda as humanoid (shapechanger), but give them the "giant blood" quality. The theory here would be that the ogres were all once of the humanoid type, and that with time (and their degenerate change into "fallen ogre") they acquired the giant type.
Either works. I think the latter lets you avoid changing too much about the race, so that's probably preferred.
Cheers,
Cam
I don't see any reason why the Irda couldn't be large size in regular form. They are after all shapechangers. Besides, they look too much like elves in their current incarnation.
I myself have decided that I wanted more High Ogres, so I'm introducing a storyline that the Ogres are now starting to birth more and more High Ogres. After all, we got Titan magic, the death of the seducer Takhisis, and the death of the one the Ogres accuse of cursing them, Paladine. I figured it fit.
The few surviving Irda are of course trying to sway these new High Ogres to their culture and beleifs, while the Nzunta are trying to do the same. The Ogre Titans of course have their own plans for them, though they certainly don't recognize them as "High Ogres" themselves. Titans are the glory of the ogre race restored, after all.
Originally posted by Brimstone
And I guess it's also arguable that Ogres were once humanoid...but as they degenerated over the centuries...they became monstrous humanoids and giants. But the Irda didn't change, so they remained humanoid. That explination works for me.
Jinx!
Ahem.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Jinx!
Ahem.
"What can I say? Great minds think alike," Tobin says as his head expands and explodes.
;)
Danny, George stop reading.
In the campaign I will be running there will be a elf-ogre offspring that will help to bring the ogres back into being Irda. They will not however be like the irda we know. The ogre-changed into irda will just be a physical change, no shape-changing stuff, no spell-like abilities. The only new ogres that will have stuff like this are those that are ogre-mage changed into irda.
Originally posted by darthsylver
The ogre-changed into irda will just be a physical change, no shape-changing stuff, no spell-like abilities. The only new ogres that will have stuff like this are those that are ogre-mage changed into irda.
That's actually what I am doing as well. I want to reclaim the whole idea that elves, ogres, and humans are the main races in the setting. After all, those three races are supposed to be the children of light, twilight and darkness after all, and dragonlance's core theme is supposed to be the struggle between good and evil, with neutrality as a stabilizing faction.
Now elves and humans are given the proper amount of coverage, but I feel ogres have been given the short end of the stick. Though they are supposedly the primary race of evil, they seemed to lumped in with all the other monstrous humanoids such as goblins or kobolds. Instead minotaurs and draconians which have had the center spotlight, and I feel it has gone on for much too long. Not that the stories weren't good, but the ogres have been neglected. As well, there are too many Irda PC's and NPC's running around to make sense as an almost lost race. Sure you can say each in each campaign that the only Irda that exists is that particular Irda, but eventually you have to say, why not give people what they want?
So anyway, I figure that the main themes of the Ogre race are the struggle with evil and their own brutish nature. The Irda of course deal with it through aescetism and denial of it. I think the Nzunta instead try to master their evil instead. They delight in their cruelty and brutality, but they don't get lost to the pleasure of it like the base ogre kin. The main ogre character in "Night of Blood' would be an example of a Nzunta personality type. Whether Irda or Nzunta though, I think monk works best as the favoured class. Sorcerer would fit too, but I'm using skill based sorcery. Besides, I do think monk is a better fit for the Irda anyway.
So now I just have to figure out how to make a large creature into an ECL +0 character. ;)
Originally posted by ferratus
I'm pretty sure you have to be large size to be giant as well. It would be rather silly, in fact, if you didn't.
For silliness, please click on the below link.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040215a&page=3
1) A major character with two novels
2) An assortment of short stories
3) Four novels that featured minotaurs, and another one on the way.
4) The lion's share of the continent of Taladas
5) A Taladas D&D sourcebook about the minotaurs.
In contrast Ogres have had:
1) A few short stories
2) One adventure
3) One novel "The Irda"
Now, if minotaurs were supposed to be the big race of evil on Krynn I might understand. But I keep hearing that elves represent good, humans represent neutrality, and Ogres represent evil. So if that's the case how come we aren't seeing more ogres?
On taladas, the minotaurs are really in the spotlilght more than ogres as they have the league of Minotaurs.
The Mischta (good aligned) and Nzunta (evil aligned), both who are much like the Irda, that is, highly adept at High Sorcery and posses the ability to shapechange.
As well, there would be three levels of "Irda" or "Nzunta" which would give them the traditional handy shapechanging powers or whatever I wanted to give the Nzunta, which would be optional for the players to take.
So basically, I've got this build, and the equivelant ECL generated from this site here.
http://csserver.evansville.edu/~jc84/DD3/Monster_ECL.htm
Large Size +1
+2 Str: +.2
+2 Cha: +.2
-4 Wis: -.2
Normal Vision: -.2
Which leaves me with an ECL of +1. Now, I need to figure out how to reduce the ECL by one. I'm figuring the curse of the Ogres should play a part in this, but I don't know what . Something to do with being the chosen race of evil, and constantly fighting their corrupting passions. It basically has to be on par with "cannot exist in sunlight" or "cannot use equipment" just to make up for that Large size.
Originally posted by ferratus
In contrast Ogres have had:
1) A few short stories
2) One adventure
3) One novel "The Irda"
That's misleading.
The ogres have a whole trilogy where they play equal part in the spotlight, Icewall Trilogy.
Also, in the Dhamon Saga, one of the main characters is an Ogre-mage, and alot of time is spent getting into the psyche of the ogres of Blode and their king...especially on Bloten.
Not to mention, the ogres are getting some airtime in the new Minotaur Wars. (and I suspect they will play an even larger role in the new book)
I'd say that ogres and minotaurs...while they aren't quite equal in airtime...it's pretty close.
Originally posted by Brimstone
That's misleading.
The ogres have a whole trilogy where they play equal part in the spotlight, Icewall Trilogy.
Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Silly me. I liked the Icewall trilogy too, because it finally showed ogres as savage, but with cunning as well. They do not have a cerebral intelligence, but they are not to be underestimated. I think that is why people don't give the ogres their due, they don't respect them enough. Maybe due to the egotistical "brains trumps brawn" attitude that a lot of us have.
Also, in the Dhamon Saga, one of the main characters is an Ogre-mage, and alot of time is spent getting into the psyche of the ogres of Blode and their king...especially on Bloten.
Yeah, I'm afraid I haven't read that one. I keep hearing good things about it, but I can't really bring myself to buy one of her new dragonlance books because of her association with the DoNA trilogy. Granted, it isn't really her fault because she did the best she could with the very bad premise of "5 super dragons from (somewhere else) nuke the planet". Man, so much stuff from the fifth age would be held in higher esteem if it wasn't for that premise.
I was talking to a friend just yesterday about this, and he said something I think makes a lot of sense. A lot of fantasy setting designers have J.R.R. Tolkien in the back of their head, and thus the looming presence of Mordor and Sauron. Now kingdoms and evil overlords make for epic and exciting campaigns, so I wonder if they figured "If One Sauron is good, then 20 must be better!" (With the big 5 and all the minor dragonlords). Pure speculation of course, but I wonder.
Anyway, I haven't read it. If however, it does for Ogres what Legend of Huma did for minotaurs, perhaps I should.
I'd say that ogres and minotaurs...while they aren't quite equal in airtime...it's pretty close.
I still dispute that minotaurs loom far larger. Even if you are right though, if Ogres are supposed to be the representative of evil like Elves represent Good and Humans represent Neutrality, then they should have as much airtime as either of those two races, and much, much more than the minotaurs.
[Edit] If you haven't figured it out yet, I am VERY stubborn sometimes :D
Originally posted by Daedavias
If you haven't figured it out yet, I am VERY stubborn sometimes.
Yes, you are, and yes, this is me now agreeing with you that the original ogres were probably humanoids and probably not the monstrous giant creatures they ended up being. They also weren't the large-sized powerhouses that Dauroth would like to think they are, either - ogre titans are a complete fiction. A high ogre was, in all likelihood, a tall coldly beautiful humanoid resembling an irda in most respects. No innate magical powers or shapeshifting, though, since that came later with the Graygem.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Yes, you are, and yes, this is me now agreeing with you that the original ogres were probably humanoids and probably not the monstrous giant creatures they ended up being. They also weren't the large-sized powerhouses that Dauroth would like to think they are, either - ogre titans are a complete fiction. A high ogre was, in all likelihood, a tall coldly beautiful humanoid resembling an irda in most respects. No innate magical powers or shapeshifting, though, since that came later with the Graygem.
Cheers,
Cam
Hehehe, when I get my Bestiary and when I come to Gencon sometime, I am having you sign that there.
See, this was my entire problem that I had with making Irda giants. They aren't the same thing as the what the High ogres were, they have many differences, namely the innate magical powers. But if you feel that they should be giants, that is your perrogative. Personally, I will keep them humanoid for the sake of them being medium sized and very similar to elves in one likeness or another. My philosophy on things such as this is that cohesive rules are more important sometimes that story elements, which is why I like that the PHB sorceror was used for the 5th Age sorceror.
Originally posted by Daedavias
Personally, I will keep them humanoid for the sake of them being medium sized and very similar to elves in one likeness or another.
Actually, that's exactly why I'm changing them to large size. They were too similar to elves for my taste. Y'know ethereal and weak pretty people. That's why I'm giving them a more masculine beauty, (as opposed to the elves feminity) in that they are tall, strong, square-jawed and chiseled.
Any relevant info should be available there :D