|#1zombiegleemaxApr 28, 2004 21:32:34||Question for those who know and remember 1e/2e Dragonlance (aka, Dragonlance Adventures and Tales of the Lance):|
Can a Cleric of Mishakal (or and GOOD aligned cleric, for that matter) cast a healing spell on a NON-good aligned character?
I know that the answer in DL 3e is YES, the cleric of Mishakal MUST. And I'm happy to see that in the rules, I've always felt that was the case anyway.
A subject of debate for years in my gaming group has been, under DLA rules (I think it's First Edition material?), will Mishakal allow her healing to work on a non-good aligned character? I feel that she would, and apparently the PTB that wrote the 3e rules feel the same. But is this theory supported by game material of the time? Can anyone give me references for or against this? I don't have access to the novels anymore and I don't own the DL modules :P
I just want to state again so there is no confusion: This is NOT A 3E QUESTION! :D
|#2cam_banksApr 28, 2004 21:42:36||There really was no rule that said priests of Mishakal or any god of Light could not heal those who weren't good, or even those who were evil. The only restriction is that they can't cast the reverse of those cure spells, or the reverse of other spells which depend on alignment (like cause fear or unholy word).|
|#3zombiegleemaxApr 28, 2004 21:54:43||Thanks for the quick reply...|
I just reread the Holy Stars section of the DLA tonight and noted that it doesn't say they can't , but then again it doesn't say they can. I need to convince my DM that they can, and that requires references. I've been pouring over the internet tonight looking for somewhere that says something to the effect of "and on page xx of Dragonturtles of a Fall Midday, Goldmoon heals Toede" or a module where a similar instance happens. My DM is capable of changing his mind, but it's like rerouting a river using a spoon.
|#4cam_banksApr 28, 2004 22:01:44|
Originally posted by Lady Darksword
Tell him that you don't need references to prove that there isn't a limit on something which wasn't designed to have a limit on it in the first place.
Clerics of Mishakal under 1st or 2nd edition AD&D rules work just like any cleric in those rules does, and there is no prohibition from using healing magic on evil characters.
|#5zombiegleemaxApr 29, 2004 2:55:18||I'm pretty sure that I remember reading in one of the 1e/2e editions that Clerics/Specialty Priests of Mishakal MUST lend healing aid whenever and whereever someone is in hurt/dying. I think it was DLA.|
|#6zombiegleemaxApr 29, 2004 9:38:47|
Originally posted by kendernbabe
That's the kind of text I'm looking for, something definate. My DM is under the impression that a good-aligned god wouldn't expend the positive energy on a non-good aligned character. I feel that is selfish and inherently evil, something a "good" god would never do.
Unfortunately, the DLA doesn't have a defining statement like that. TotL (Tales of the Lance) says CoM can't withhold healing just because someone can't afford it, which is a little better but still not there.
I'm not trying to rules-lawyer him here. I just shrugged and said, "it's your campaign", but then later he said he'd read it somewhere. I think he's misinterpreting something. Already he's learning that the PHB and DLA don't quite mesh. PHB says good clerics can't cast Inflict Wounds spells, yet Kiri-Jolith only allows his clerics to cast them.
|#7dragontoothApr 29, 2004 11:44:05||I can't believe people missed this one.|
Its not mishakal but its a Paladine healing.
Legends vol. 2 War of the Twins.
oops forgot to add the spoiler
Khars strikes a fatal blow to Raistlin Majere, and runs off, not finishing him off. Crysania (cleric of Paladine) heals Raistlin's wound.
|#8zombiegleemaxApr 29, 2004 15:16:29|
Originally posted by Dragontooth
Aha. I'll have to see if I can find the book. It's been soooo long since I read the older books. I think they were new or just out a year or two.
Thanks for all the help :D If someone comes by with more references, I won't object.
|#9jerichoApr 29, 2004 19:56:09|
but then later he said he'd read it somewhere. I think he's misinterpreting something.
Hmm, this is what makes me think your DMs ruling is incorrect, it's possible he's confusing healing spells granted by Mishakal with using the Staff of Mishakal. The Staff of Mishakal causes 4d6 points of damage to anyone not of Lawful Good alignment that tries to use it.
I've never come across any reference that says that clerics of Mishakal can't cast healing spells on characters with an evil alignment. The only way I see to disallow this would be for the DM to invoke the idea that it's simply this character's destiny to die at this point. eg. Elistan heals Sturm in Icewall from a seemingly fatal wound, but Sturm's destiny is to die at the High Clerist's Tower.
|#10maladaarApr 29, 2004 23:54:34||If the whole point to a deity is to try and "win over" followers it would seem to make little sense that a goddes of good would prevent her healing abilities to be used on an evil character.|
Think of it as a sample of the god(dess)' benevolence.
There was also a story in one of the Tales II books (if I am not mistaken) where a cleric of Takhisis heals a Knight of Solamnia before the Cataclysm (this part I am sure of as I read the story twice).
Holding a sacred staff vs. receving the benefits of the healing are different (of course, Raistlin is another story....those of you that have read the books know what I mean).
|#11shnikApr 30, 2004 10:03:16||Correct me if I'm wrong, but: on the subject of the Blue Crystal Staff, Goldmoon did heal a High Seeker with it in the beginning of the Chronicles, the same that was trying to capture them and steal the staff... That guy sure wasn't Lawful Good.|
|#12dragontoothApr 30, 2004 11:40:23||The staff of Mishakal can be welded by any good character. Anybody else that touches it suffers. |
The welder of the staff can cure anybody they touch with the staff even if they are neutral, or evil.
It was Tas that used the staff to cure the seeker priest who was also looking for the staff. at the beginning of DoAT
|#13zombiegleemaxApr 30, 2004 12:09:02|
Originally posted by Shnik
That's actually something I would debate. Hederick may have been close-minded and high and mighty, but he thought the companions and the staff they carried were charlatans...heretics....He was a religious zealot, a believer in the "new" gods. He was in my eyes, doing what he thought was good. He wasn't evil...just very misguided. a flawed character, though I would still call him good aligned.
|#14jerichoApr 30, 2004 19:39:00||The Staff can only be wielded by a lawful good character, it damages those not of its alignment that try to wield it. Tas uses it (if unintentionally) to knock Hederick down and it heals him, Tas's alignment is neutral in the stat block in Classics 1. It damages Raistlin although he is also neutral, and then zaps the Draconians when they try to pick it up after the ambush in the swamps.|
It's probably one of those times where you can't really translate the events of the novels into D&D terms. 4d6 damage would probably have killed Raistlin at 8 HP. He probably just got a warning...
Now that I've wandered way off topic, I agree with Malaadar, it's unlikely that Mishakal would withhold healing spells based on the alignment of the target.
|#15elthbertMay 02, 2004 23:15:25||Well The Staff wouldn't heal Raistlin at all and the books say as much. I would agree Hederick was a zealot and wrong but he was not evil, even his agreements with the Dragon Lords where to protest Solace from destruction. Misguided but certainly not an evil act.|
Remember back in 1st edition they had tendencies as part of alignment, Tas had good tendencies( I would think him Good anyway from his behavior in the books, he is just a clepto) Raistlin has evil tendencies, so there you go. Also Tas is directly authorized by a god( Paladine in the person of Fizban)to use the staff, Raistlin is not.
|#16maladaarMay 02, 2004 23:20:17||It was stated in the book, by Raistlin, that the staff would not cure him because it was his sacrifice for his magic.|
I will look in my original DL stuff I believe at that time they printed the alignment of Hederick (who could have quite easily been LE).
Jericho agrees? Finally someone that agrees with one of my comments! :D
|#17elthbertMay 02, 2004 23:46:07||you are right hederick could have been lawful evil, but he could have just as easily been lawful good or lawful nuetral. I was not thinking of the curing of his body but of his wounds, I could be mistaken but I am fairly sure that came up. cAn you think of any time that Goldmoon heals someone who is evil, or the elistan heals someone that is evil, I can't recall it, it might have happened but I ca't recall it.|
|#18maladaarMay 02, 2004 23:49:04||There is a precedent for God of opposite good/evil curing those not of the same alignment.|
I stated one such story written by Knaack. A cleric of Takhisis healed (cured wounds) and saved the life of a Knight of Solamnia that was most definitely a good character in the book.
Below is the book that I am referring to.
The Reign of Istar
by Margaret Weis & Tracy Hickman
Tales, Volume 4
Beginning with the poetry of Quivalen Soth, elven bard, this collection of stories describes the events leading up to the great Cataclysm. Read a story of a Knight of Solamnia, trapped in the Istarian arena. Hear the tale of Nuitari's attempt to thwart the plans of Fistandantilus, or how the serious training sessions of the Knight of Solamnia are disrupted by an unusual recruit.
|#19NivedMay 02, 2004 23:58:16||Certain wounds, Raistlin's gold skin and ruined respitory system, the holes from Raistlin's finger's in Dalamar's chest, Justinius's crippled leg just can't be healed, regaurdless of the alignment of the cleric. |
Excluding these extraordinary cercumstances (which always seem to have to do with Wizards), clerics can heal anyone, or at least I haven't seen anything to disallow it.
Its been awhile since I read DotAT, and I loaned it to a buddy so I can't check it. But that guy whom the companions find who travels with them for a time then tries to betray them at Pax Tharkas (only to be crushed under the gate stones), what was his name... anyway wasn't he healed by Goldmoon when they first find him? I mean he was quite obviously evil, he tried to kill them and tried to hand Berem over to the Dark Queens forces.
|#20elthbertMay 03, 2004 0:14:30||eben he might have been healed by Goodmoon, I'll check. Although with certian interprettions of the alignment he might be Neutral not evil, I would agree he was evil. Weakness on that level is evil. Still I am not sure if he was healed by goodmoon I will check in a minute.|
|#21elthbertMay 03, 2004 0:17:35||well I guess I won't DoWN and DoSD are right where they should be but not DoAT hmm, I'll have to find it tomarrow.|
|#22maladaarMay 03, 2004 0:18:55||Elthbert,|
Was anyone evil in those books????:D
|#23elthbertMay 03, 2004 0:25:45||Oh yeah, I thought raistlin was evil from about page 60 in DoAT, Kitiara, all of the blatantly bad guys, most of the silvanesti elves where seriously flirting with evil down in Ergoth. Yeah I know you were kidding but it was actually a good question. I don't want to seem like some moral realitivist who excuses every thing, I just think eben was more interested in saveing his own skin than actually maliciously wanting to causeharm to others. I would say that is evil, but I tend to have a very Sturm like world view.|
|#24maladaarMay 03, 2004 0:34:58||I am probably one of the few people that feel like this,|
but I will say it anyway and face the "wrath" of the masses.
I HATE RAISTLIN!!!
Do you know how many times I wished Sturm would run the weakling through?!?
Or even Caramon would just wake up and cut him down in two?!?
There I said it and I am not taking it back.
Starts to boil oil, prepares boulders, has his men man the towers for the impending seige by angry Raistlin fans.
:fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!:
:fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!:
|#25elthbertMay 03, 2004 7:26:06||Oh yeah I agree, I use it as an exampleof bad role playing that Sturm and Raistlintolerate one another. I Always though Sturm should have cut him clean in half with that big honken two handed sword of his.|
Actually I would say Raistlin was evil after the test but you don't get any wind of it until about pg 60 of DoAT. You don't sacrifice another human life for power without being evil, especially not your devoted loving brother.
So I guess the Raistin fans will have to divide there forces attacking both of our keeps:fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: ;)
|#26dragontoothMay 03, 2004 11:39:55|
Originally posted by jericho
pg. 255 DLCS
The Blue Crystal Staff may be wield by any good creature. (not just Lawful good).
When Raistlin first touch the staff he was neutral, and would of only suffered 2d6 points of dmg not 4d6.
Also Goldmoon used the staff on Raistlin after they both escaped the prisonment at the draconian camp outside of Xak-Tsaroth.
Eben was Chaotic Neutral
He never tried to harm any body. All his actions were selfish to better himself.