(dwarves with beards...bah...medium half-giants...nnsense)
i have to say the conversion from Athas.org is MUCH better than the one from the magazines, and really catches the true spirit of the Dark Sun setting...
still i remember resurrecting Kalid-ma, and killing him with Sun-Razor... but back to bussiness...
i wondered... is there a reason why the sorcerer class was left out of the conversion?
they seems very suited for such a setting, and, even if of course they weren't in the 2nd edition of Dark sun, i think they could find a place in Athas...
just wanted to know if there's a logic behind the decision to leave them out.
i think every kind of spellcaster/power manifester that uses Charisma to power their Art should have a place in the Dark sun setting...
especially regarding clerics, i think Mystics (from Dragonlance CS), or at least the Mystic mechanics, would be much more suited than clerics.. i mean... a guy jumping off a cliff to get the favour of the Air spirits, doesn't look to me as having a lot of Wisdom... certainly he's got an attitude (Charisma)
i suppose Wilders are not included since the conversion hasn't been updated with the XPH, hope to see them soon...
you see, i had this idea about a Sorcerer/Wilder/Cerebromancer...
just my two bits...
Oh, found a way around the Psi Handbook/Dragon Half-giant. Call them "Quarter-giants" and it's just about right. Maybe it was bad breeding or something, but they're substantially weaker and smaller than true half-giants (which rounded off at 12' feet and not 9').
Aside from that, I see sorcerers as cheaters. They don't need a spellbook, which is generally not that big of a deal in most settings, but in DS it takes away a tell-tale sign of being an arcane caster and removes their main weakness. Not needing a spellbook is too much of a benefit in a world where wizards have to hide what they are.
I would ban the Eschew Materials feat on similar grounds, or maybe turn it into a metamagic feat with some cost to it (+1 spell level perhaps). It's too much of a no-brainer on Athas otherwise.
* Remember Kalak from The Verdant Passage? He cast without components. In the DS in my head I give Eschew Materials and Ignore Material Components to all dragons, avangions and Champions. At their level they really don't need those feats, but it kinds of freaks wizard players to see badies cast with no components and gestures (or vocals)!
Originally posted by MrSpatula
As David Noonan mentioned in his message a few weeks ago, one reason for excluding them is that, as spontaneous casters, sorcerers step all over the psion's niche in DS.
I see that rtationale, and tend to agree with it. Plus, the fact that the way Arcane magic works, was invented, and well... th entire basis of it revolves around a wizard, not a sorcerer. I'd say that the only creatures that innately can cast magic, due to something in their blood, would be undead. After all, the entire arcane magic system in Dark Sun is very much tied to necromancy, negative energy, and the like (well, at least from a variety of the 2e materials). However, if there was a way to have a tangible explanation for how a Sorcerer could exist (not game mechanic, but good, thought-out filler text), I could see one being there. but as it stands, I am against the idea of the PHB Sorcerer in Athas. Why have a second spellcaster class for a type of magic that's either forbidden at the least, or even worse, punishable by death? Especially in a magic-lacking world.
Aside from that, I see sorcerers as cheaters. They don't need a spellbook, which is generally not that big of a deal in most settings, but in DS it takes away a tell-tale sign of being an arcane caster and removes their main weakness. Not needing a spellbook is too much of a benefit in a world where wizards have to hide what they are.
Except for the fact that spellbooks aren't really a tell-tale sign of being a wizard, since Athasian wizards don't have spell "books", but rather spell "knots", spell "tatoos", spell "brands", spell "scars", spell "braids", spell "patterns", etc. They don't look anything like a spellbook, and generally aren't identified as such.
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Now - for Mystics - that's another one where you'd have to make some sort of tangible source, something ore than the fairy-like "power of the heart", which works great for Dragonlance, but just has too many "warm fuzzies" for Dark Sun, which should have more of a scortching, lethal feel to it. Leaping off a cliff to appease & gain acceptance of an element to become a Cleric, that's devotion, and just the about right amount of grittiness needed for Athas. This isn't the land of plush, soft grassy fields spreading for miles. It's course, hard rock, and hot sand.
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Wilders should be going into the core with the XPH update. While they didn't exist in 2e, I think they are perfect for Dark Sun. Anything to increase the scope & span of Psionics is a good thing, since Psionics should be as common/popular on Athas as magic is on other campaign settings (while magic is.... well.... not a good thing, even for divine casters it can be rough). I even like the Sulblade... just don't know how it will balance for Athas and all.
Originally posted by Delazar
i wondered... is there a reason why the sorcerer class was left out of the conversion?
Most of the reasons were stated in various posts above. The other reasoning I've heard is the source of a sorcerer's power. The idea of a sorcerer looking within for magic supposedly goes against the idea of arcane casters drawing magic from the world.
However, sorcerers can gain their magic from other sources as well, again using Dragonlance as an example. Dragonlance sorcerers draw upon the ambient arcane energies of Krynn (Wild Sorcery).
Now, perhaps they do step on the toes of the psion to some degree. Then again, this could happen in any setting with both sorcerers and psions. Will this be problematic with Eberron?
especially regarding clerics, i think Mystics (from Dragonlance CS), or at least the Mystic mechanics, would be much more suited than clerics.. i mean... a guy jumping off a cliff to get the favour of the Air spirits, doesn't look to me as having a lot of Wisdom... certainly he's got an attitude (Charisma)
We talked about this some on another thread recently. I definitely agree with this idea. Mechanically, the mystic seems to fit the idea of a 2e cleric well too. They only get one domain, so limit this to an elemental domain. This would then be similar to a 2e cleric who had to have one elemental sphere, and the remainder of his spells coming from the catch-all Cosmos sphere.
Someone also mentioned using the shugenja from Oriental Adventures, which would have a similar effect, although I'm not sure how one would tackle the school spells.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Wilders should be going into the core with the XPH update. While they didn't exist in 2e, I think they are perfect for Dark Sun. Anything to increase the scope & span of Psionics is a good thing, since Psionics should be as common/popular on Athas as magic is on other campaign settings (while magic is.... well.... not a good thing, even for divine casters it can be rough). I even like the Sulblade... just don't know how it will balance for Athas and all.
Remember that thread a few weeks back, with the fluff surrounding psionic classes?
What was it?
Psion: of the Tarandan school of thought and those Green Age psionic academies
Psychic Warrior: earlier form of psionics, before it was made into a science
Wilder ??: a wild talent that develops its powers
Soulblade ??: same as Psychic Warrior?
There, found the thread:
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Well, I'd guess that in the realm of Dark Sun, the Wilder could be someone who developed their psionic abilities without using Tarandian schooling. They would most likely be individuals who had a Wild Talent, and then worked on it themselves, developing into the more emotional-based psionic class that the Wilder seems to be. I've already considered that the Psychic Warrior is along similar lines, only they focused on developing martial skills and using psionics to enhance them, while the Psion class is actually the Tarandian schooling, where they focus on the individual disciplines of psionics and using it to it's fullest extent, through rigorous mental, physical and spiritual training.
I feel, however, that the Soulblade might have the same balance issue as a Monk does for Dark Sun, but I can't say for certian. but yea,I'm still sticking to my original thought for Wilders - even after I've actually read the XPH now hehe.