I've recently updated my conversion (not on the web yet though) with Templars, heavily based on athas.org's conversion of the class. However, I found that Secular Authority, though I think is a great basic mechanics for these powers which I also basically use, is somewhat broken, or incomplete, and in any case, problematic. I'll talk about some problems I think there are with the system, and what I used to correct them. All of the following is based on the Athas.org conversion, and I think needs to be addressed by them:
Uses per day
It makes sense that this ability would be limited in number of uses per day, but what happens if the limit is broken?
With a similar ability, such as bardic music, there is no problem, because trying to use the ability a number of times greater than your allowance simply doesn't yeild any results. However, for templars, many abilities would easily be used any number of times per day if there is no mechanism to control them.
Take call upon slave for example. A first level templar sees a slave and orders him to pick up these boxes and place them somewhere. That would count as one use of Secular authority, meaning the templar can't use it anymore that day. But what happens when, later that day, the templar commands another slave to come with him? The slave refuses? The templar cannot give the order?
The same thing is true with many abilities. If a templar comes up to a freeman and commands him to let him in, the freeman probably will, no matter what level the templar has or how many uses he spent that day, because the freeman has no way to know this (though conceivably he could get asome idea of the level, but certainly not the uses). What then?
So, for this to work, you would have to implement a system which makes extra uses of secular authority feasable, but risk attracting the attetion of the SK, considering it an abuse of power. I use a cumulative 10% per extra use of the templar loosing all spells and powers for a 24 hours. An extra abuse during this time period leads to the angering of the SK and the templar becoming an ex-templar (and becoming very, very afraid for his life!). This chance represents the risk of the SK hearing word of the templar's actions from someone, or actually him being scying on his templar at the moment of the abuse.
Without this, the system doesn't really work.
rank requirements
Also, I'd point out that without this system, the level requirement for using abilities becomes very difficult to ensure. Again, say the 1st level templar commands a freeman to let him in, the freeman probably will. Since this ability is not supernatural or anything in origin, there is no real limits to determine its uses, other than some higher functions (judge and pardon mostly).
Again, using an ability without meeting the prerequisites incurs a cumulative 10% chance per rank of difference that the SK will notice the abuse. However, some powers can simply not be used before meeting the prerequisites. They are Accuse, Judge and Grant Pardon.
level requirement
A templar level requirement would be in order, I think. If not, you could have high level rogues, for example, who take only 1 level in the templar class suddenly have the same secular authority powers of high templars. A feat granting total class levels to meet requisites could be in order though, especially for ex-templars, who venture into new paths to keep power (wizard, psion)
refusing authority
When somebody does not comply with the templar's orders, the result should be a bit more defined, and probably not as severe as execution, unless the victim is a slave. I have those of refuse immediately suffer the consequences of the Accuse power.
Call upon slave
To prevent spending uses of thsi ability with their own slaves, I made this ability refer to using someone else's slave, not the templar's, or the city's.
Accuse
I reduced the imprisonment period to 1 day per templar level, or until judged by a templar with the appropriate ability. If not, this power is way too powerful for my tastes. Its practically a power word kill in Role Playing campaigns, where combat is not the only solution to everything. See a foe, don't start combat, order his arrest, guy permanently out. At leats this way, you have to wait for the Judge ability.
Requisition troops
Just a note, the description of this ability states that templars can requisition troops with secular authority, yet no such ability is described mechanically.
Other general powers
Secular authority would seem to give templars a list of other powers which would mostly be in effect at any time, and some on occasion.
- Arresting actual lawbreakers. Basic law enforcement. Templars must be able to do this before getting the Accuse power. The difference would be that accuse requires neither evidence nor even the presence of the templar.
- Arresting and Executing wizards. That also seems to be a basic power of templars.
- Confiscating items. Now this really needs a mechanic, otherwise there could be severe abuse. Say the templar casts detect magic and detects a magical dagger. He simply accuses the freeman who has it, and takes the dagger for himself! And the same could be made with money and mundane valuables. What happens if a templar comes up to someone and asks for her metal weapon? Can she refuse? And that could go on and on, until the templar has WAY to much valuables to be balanced! I have personal requisitions of property be an abuse, though a power allows for some later on. However, the templar may do all of the above for confiscation, in which case he takes the item to the appropriate bureau or treasury, but cannot keep it, unless risking abuse.
Any thoughts?
Originally posted by Shei-Nad
level requirement
A templar level requirement would be in order, I think. If not, you could have high level rogues, for example, who take only 1 level in the templar class suddenly have the same secular authority powers of high templars.
I think not. Then how would people like Elabon Escrissar or others favorites of the SKs come into power even though they are not templars but psions or some such?
Also, if a PC takes a templar level and from then on progresses into another class, he's still a templar. Secular Authority dosen't work for thoses who are no longer recognized by the templarate as templars. Anyway the SKs themselves bring their templars into power so I would think I't be easy for them to see if they're lying when they say "I want to serve my city and my king/queen".
A feat granting total class levels to meet requisites could be in order though, especially for ex-templars, who venture into new paths to keep power (wizard, psion)
Templars not being the only ones with Secular Authority, something could be added to the templar class to make theirs more potent.
Originally posted by Pennarin
I think not. Then how would people like Elabon Escrissar or others favorites of the SKs come into power even though they are not templars but psions or some such?
I'll have to finish reading the novels in order to better judge, since its the second time someone brings that character up and I don't know who he/she is. I gather he's not a templar, and that he has several secular powers. We'll see then.
However, I'd just point out that its very difficult to make Secular authority a mechanical system, since, conceivably, a SK could take anyone, even a 1st level commoner, and grant him full secular authority powers for as long as he sees fit.
Trying to incorporate a basically roleplaying element into class mechanics is difficult at best, but not impossible, if some modifications are adopted.
I have an idea, read below.
Also, if a PC takes a templar level and from then on progresses into another class, he's still a templar. Secular Authority dosen't work for thoses who are no longer recognized by the templarate as templars. Anyway the SKs themselves bring their templars into power so I would think I't be easy for them to see if they're lying when they say "I want to serve my city and my king/queen".
I don't know what you mean. Ex-templars would loose their secular authority powers, yes, but not multiclass templars. However, when putting aside their templar ambitions of rising through the ranks by pursuing psionic studies or magic (multiclassing into wizard or psion), the templar should not progress in secular authority, as he's not rising through the templarate ranks. IMO anyways.
Templars not being the only ones with Secular Authority, something could be added to the templar class to make theirs more potent.
Maybe there should just be a feat that allows for other people to gain secular authority. Something like this:
SECULAR AUTHORITY [General]
Prerequisites: Cha 13+, Diplomacy 5+ ranks, Character level 6+, favor of the Sorcerer-king.
Benefit: You gain secular authority over your Sorcerer-King's region. This ability functions exactly as the Secular Authority power of the Templar class, except that your total class levels count towards meeting the level prerequisites of that ability.
Special: This ability can only be granted by a Sorcerer-king. If you loose the Sorcerer-King's favor, you also loose the benefits of this feat.
...
I think this could work. The only thing I like a bit less is having to be able to take a feat in order to gain this ability, but then, there are many precedents for this in D&D (See FR regional feats)
Originally posted by Shei-Nad
I don't know what you mean. Ex-templars would loose their secular authority powers, yes, but not multiclass templars. However, when putting aside their templar ambitions of rising through the ranks by pursuing psionic studies or magic (multiclassing into wizard or psion), the templar should not progress in secular authority, as he's not rising through the templarate ranks. IMO anyways.
I get what you mean. But anyone with the Secular Authority ability, were it be from taking levels in Templar, Templar Knight or receiving it from the SK himself in a decree confering power, its scalling is not related to levels in a specific class but to ranks in Diplomacy. So even if someone advances as a Wiz or Psion for the next levels, he's still going to become more adept at Secular Authority if he purchases ranks in Diplomacy.
Maybe there should just be a feat that allows for other people to gain secular authority. Something like this:
SECULAR AUTHORITY [General]
Prerequisites: Cha 13+, Diplomacy 5+ ranks, Character level 6+, favor of the Sorcerer-king.
Benefit: You gain secular authority over your Sorcerer-King's region. This ability functions exactly as the Secular Authority power of the Templar class, except that your total class levels count towards meeting the level prerequisites of that ability.
Special: This ability can only be granted by a Sorcerer-king. If you loose the Sorcerer-King's favor, you also loose the benefits of this feat.
Would like that very much :D Although I can't tell if its balanced (but you should try and drop the Character level requirement).
Still, levels in a specific class - in this instance, templar - do not come into play with Secular Authority, only ranks in Diplomacy count. One can easily augment his ranks in that skill by taking the Skill Focus (Diplomacy) feat and other such feats, like the Savant Skill and Genius Skill feats from Plot & Poison: A Guidebook to Drow (Green Ronin).
"Smug" the highly charismatic, lvl 10 Templar who has been failing in his duties will NOT have as much support as
"EvilGit", lvl 6 Templar who is also a lvl 4 psion who has been very instrumental in dealing with problems.
It shouldn't be a case of Templar level owns all, but rather, templar level MAY influence how much Secular Authority he or she can wield.
Therefore, Secular Authority is purely an RPed thing, with the DM assigning characters the amount of power they can wield, so, why not use Secular Power as a 1 to 20 scale, based on relative levels of a "standard" Templar. Which allows you to see who can comand who in templar groups.
Remember it IS a beauracracy, and power isn't always based on ability/seniority etc.
Thus you can have say,
"NightGuard" 3rd lvl Templar but wields Secular Authority as a lvl 10 Templar due to connections and what he has achieved.
"DayGuard" 10th lvl templar who only has Secular Authority at 6th level due to poor performance.
Note this also comes into a flaw in D&D, in which people always make the "power wielders" high level PC classes...which could well be far from the case. Many real life leaders are far from being combat orientated, or even skilled.
DMs should be encouraged to run people who wield power in organizations according to the CHARACTER, not the character LEVELS.
Easy way to show this is the common use of say, a captain of arms, to be a high level fighter...WRONG! He *maybe*, but an officer needs brains and charisma a damn sight more than he needs brawn, usually. If you think about it, the Expert and Aristocrat classes are the ones officers and leaders would most often have.
In a Dark Sun setting, imagine the templar "Studious", he's 6th level and has 4 levels of Expert, he takes tons of skill ranks in Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Bluff, Proffession (Farmer), Knowledge (Money)..thus he can work out taxes and food storage, as well as catch out liars and conmen. That is a LOT more valuable than a standard 10th lvl Templar to a Sorceror King, isn't it? ;)
Originally posted by Silverblade The Enchanter
Hm, ok Secular Authority comes from *how the Sorceror King views this particular individual*, yes?
I'd say it'd be more "How the Templar Beaurocracy views this particular individual". With the note that the Sorcerer-King is the head of the Templar Beaurocracy.
In other words, a 1st level Templar isn't going to come to the attention of Hamanu, if he oversteps his bounds. Instead, he'll be dealt with by his immediate superiors. Only very powerful and influencial Templars are going to be noticed by Mr. H.
I find myself thinking of the "fame" setup in the Gladiator's Handbook. Perhaps something like that... you have an "Influence" score, with things like:
Solve small problem for superior: +1
Solve large problem for superior: +3 (etc)
Quell incipient riot before it begins: +2
Give superior a small gift: +1
Give superior a large gift: +2 (etc)
For each year of loyal service: +1
Per 100gp brought into the city coffers: +1
Make superior look foolish: -3
Fail to solve a small problem for superior: -1
Overstep authority -1 to -10
And so forth and so forth. Your Templar Rank depends on your Influence score (i.e. you get promoted when you reach a given score). Perhaps you can occasionally spend Influence Points for extraordinary Secular Authority uses (e.g. you call in favours to put a Noble in jail, even in you ordinarily couldn't do that).
If the various Secular Authority abilities are x/day, then overusing your abilities could cost you influence points (as other Templars think you're getting above yourself). So you can order a Noble's slaves about to your heart's content, but when word gets back to your boss, you'll be in the cesspit up to your neck...
There could be Influence Point attacks ("Don't wave that badge of rank at me, young Templar! I am of the House of Minthur, and we have many contacts within the Templarate! I could have you on Kank Dung duty with a snap of my fingers!"). Non-Templars could get Influence Points (bribes, blackmail, "favours"). Influence point contests!
Anyway. Some thoughts.
I'm thinking of presenting a reworked version of Secular Authority mechanics later based on the Leadership Feat, which would include some of Korvar's idea and better represent, I think, the benefits of an essentially RPed idea...
Not sure exactly how yet... will wait until I'm back home...
I'm not terribly happy with the current system, for some of the reasons described above.
On the other hand, it's very important that SA levels are not tied to levels of the Templar class, as Templars (as a class) are essentially powerless in the four cities without an SK. The system has to support advancement of power in a way independant of advancement in the class. Which is why it's currently tied to ranks in Diplomacy rather than class levels...
Actually, its kind of hard to have an Authority score that could downgrade. Or rather, its hard to have it go up and down and still remain logical.
I would think that a judge that looses his ability to judge would find it hard to regain his position. In fact, in the templarate, I don't know if he would even remain a templar.
Also, I liked the idea of linking the Secular Authority with Diplomacy, something that becomes difficult in a system resembling a leadership score.
I might get back on this, but I think I'll keep my original modifications to the original athas.org system, and add the feat I presented above to allow non-templars to gain secular authority. Also, I'm thinking of adding a feat which would allow a templar to gain secular authority powers more quickly. Something like:
AMBITIOUS TEMPLAR [General]
Prerequisites: Secular Authority
Benefit: Your effective level is treated as if it were 1 level higher for the purposes of Secular Authority. This affects some powers, Secular Authority uses per day and meeting the level prerequisite of Secular Authority powers.