|#1zombiegleemaxMay 08, 2004 12:36:41||I myself realize, that while a paladin in Dragonlance is rare, and one could go as far as to call them non-standard....|
But they still exist within the setting.
The purpose for this thread would be for someone official....*cough cough Jamie, cough DH, cough Cam...cough cough* to chime in and agree....Id really like to see people stop simply assuming that paladins are not allowed in the official setting.
|#2zombiegleemaxMay 08, 2004 12:38:22||And of course....after the confirmation comes....Id love to hear about your various experiences with Paladins in your DL game...|
Especially the ones that really take the idea and run with it....the ones who forge new ground within the parameters of the class and the setting
|#3DragonhelmMay 08, 2004 12:46:28||The same topic is already being discussed on this thread on Dragonlance.com.|
Cam, Jamie, and I have all three said that paladins were allowed. In fact, the DLCS says it, but not quite as you think. The key word is "non-standard", not "non-existent". The Bestiary of Krynn confirms this with the favored class of Lightning Draconians being paladin.
The key thing to remember is that the Knights of Solamnia fill the role of a heroic knighthood in Krynn. The reason paladins are non-standard is that they are often seen as heroic knights, when in fact they could be any number of roles.
As I mentioned on the DL.com thread, you could have a Kagonesti paladin who is a defender of his tribe, who is able to summon his spirit horse.
Also, paladins can exist in areas where the Knights of Solamnia are not common. For example, there's Austan Gavynus, the minotaur paladin of Taladas seen in Taladas: The Minotaurs.
I would stress that paladins are very rare. If you incorporate them, try to have them take on a different sort of role than the Knights of Solamnia.
Read up on that other thread, and you'll see some great ways for incorporating paladins into your game.
|#4zombiegleemaxMay 08, 2004 13:14:39||Is a paladin not his God own blessed Knight? He was bless from his god. Can then not all god haves paladin? |
I mean Huma was a paladin. But if all Knights of solamnia or neraka paladins? On the one hand yes - on the other hand not. They are all warriors or Knights of his gods but not all was bleesed and elect or?
|#5cam_banksMay 08, 2004 16:30:47|
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
A Kagonesti would make a fine candidate for a paladin of freedom (the chaotic good paladin variant from Unearthed Arcana), as a lawful good Kagonesti is rare enough to begin with. The association with the paladin's summoned mount and a spirit horse is a good one, however.
|#6zombiegleemaxMay 08, 2004 16:47:16||I think that humans alone can be paladin.|
|#7cam_banksMay 08, 2004 16:48:46|
Originally posted by Knight of the Lily
Any race can take the paladin class, under the current rules. Unless you're saying you'd only allow human paladins, in which case that's something else entirely.
|#8zombiegleemaxMay 08, 2004 16:50:36||When i was first reading the WoS i thought that perhaps Mina would have been a Paladin of Takhisis (Like the Paladin of Tyrany from UA), so thats the role i've set paladins in in DL.|
Much like Favored Souls they are only the most devoted members of a God's followed, and are destined for the world to turn around them. They are the favored of their dieties, and where the Paladin goes so does the very Will of that God.
|#9zombiegleemaxMay 08, 2004 16:53:40||I believe that only humans are have a strong faith to be a paladin.|
|#10cam_banksMay 08, 2004 17:04:19|
Originally posted by Knight of the Lily
So dwarves, elves and other races of Krynn don't have the degree of faith that humans have? What leads you to this conclusion? Can they not have clerics, either?
|#11zombiegleemaxMay 08, 2004 17:33:36||I think its the attribute and talents by human. Humans have a short live, thereby they are restless and open for the great target in her life to fight for god. They are determined and fanatic enogh to fight and die. For they is religion impotantly enough. They can combine honor with faith. How many Paladins know you they are Dwarfs or Elfs? Can you belive that a silvanesti 1000 years work as paladin? And how many bonus are elfs and dwarfs else to get? They can have clerics but not paladin.|
|#12zombiegleemaxMay 08, 2004 18:27:51||I believe that a person of any race can fight and die for what they believe in....it isnt humans aone who can be fanatically devoted to a god or cause......and to be entirely honest...Huma probably wasnt a paladin.....he more than likely had his levels in KoS (crown order). |
Of course there is that elven paladin mentioned in DoLS...
and the Lightning Draconians who have paladin as their favored class.
Bottom line.....what race you are doesnt really come into play when you are deciding whether or not they hear the call to be a devoted holy warrior of their god.
|#13zombiegleemaxMay 08, 2004 18:36:10||I think Paladin is more as a holy warrior. He is the more a Knight as a warrior. But not really a normal Knight. I think we have all different views of a paladin.|
|#14DragonhelmMay 08, 2004 18:47:39|
Originally posted by Knight of the Lily
Huma was a Knight of the Crown, not a paladin. Perhaps, had he lived past the Third Dragon War, he may have become one.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Ooh, I'll have to look that up.
The association with the paladin's summoned mount and a spirit horse is a good one, however.
|#15zombiegleemaxMay 08, 2004 19:07:22||since i don't use the material contained in the Dragonlance Campaign Setting (3.5) in my campaign (well, the RULES anyhow), we have paladins, and most of them are indeed Knights of Solamnia...|
i honestly never really much liked any version of the KoS (1st ed, 2nd ed, 3 or 3.5)... i just never could get past those Knight of the Rose that were supposed to have cleric spells...
i prefer things like they were in the original Drgonlance classic adv... i mean, Sturm was a fighter, like Derek Crownguard and Aaron Strongbow, yet they all were Knight (Sturm inside, the others just on paper...)
and, IIRC, the high clerist was, well, a Cleric...
And in Tales of the Lance, Sturm was still described as a fighter and Gunthar uth Wistan was a Paladin (thirteenth level, i believe)!
well, just to say, you may use paladins as Holy Warriors of some god, or just as Knight of Solamnia
that's what i do, and it worked pretty well, without having to add another dozen of pages of RULES (often not very in line with the novels)
no hard feelings, though...
|#16zombiegleemaxMay 09, 2004 12:50:48||what is a paladin? A class or a appointed person by gods? A beliver with visions from gods? A blessed Knight? What do you think?|
|#17zombiegleemaxMay 12, 2004 8:45:12||after all i think there have to be some (but only few) paladins in the other races, just think of dwarfs, elfs or even minotaurs who would like to become knights of solamnia...|
in our group we have one paladin at the moment who is indeed a minotaur paladin of the emperor (aka Kiri Jolith) and i will soon join in with a golden half-dragon paladin (i dont care if someone is telling me that there are no half-dragons on krynn...) of paladine
we had long discussions in our two DL groups we are playing if there are paladins or not and the thing we ended up with is the problem that the KoS would not allow most other races other then human or half-elf in their ranks so that there should be other orders for this races (but for LG paladins we ended up that dwarfs and minotaurs would only be able to join the "knighthood" of kiri-jolith and for elves we ended up that they would only follow eli (paladin))
|#18zombiegleemaxMay 12, 2004 23:20:10||Actually, I have been thinking, and I think one of the reasons they decided to cut paladins as standard is because of a rules standpoint. As we all know, at first glance, a paladin looks like a great candidate for a Sword Knight at first glance. At first glance. But, looking more carefully, you'll see that a major feature of Sword Knights are their spellcasting. Ever looked at a paladin's spellcasting? It sucks. It would not be advantageous, from a rules standpoint, to play a Paladin Sword Knight. So, I made a house rule, applicable to paladins, rangers, hexblades, and any other class where spellcasting is not an overly major class ability. When they take a level in a prestige class that grants them +1 spellcasting progression, then they gain the spellcasting abilities as if they had gained a level in cleric for paladins, druid for rangers, sorcerer for hexblades, mystic for my mystic paladin variant, and mystic using the druid spell list for my mystic ranger variant. So, lets say a Paladin 6/Crown 1/Sword 1 would have, like, 2 first level spells from the Paladin, and a couple 0 and first level spells from cleric per day. I don't know if it's balanced or not, but I think it is. If so, then I'll start cranking out Hexblade/Thorn Knights right now for my party to fight. I love my job :D|
|#19theredrobedwizardMay 13, 2004 7:25:02||Knight of the Lily: A Paladin, in the Dungeons and Dragons v3.5 sense (which I assume we're talking about unless otherwise specified), is a Lawful Good holy warrior. That holy warrior may serve a church, an idea, or just the pure alignment of Lawful Good. |
As such, wouldn't dwarves make excellent Paladins? They're extremely Lawful, and most are Good. They're warriors with a strict code of conduct, perfect for the Paladin way of life.
Elves are less likely to be the traditional Paladins, but the Paladin of Freedom would work well for them.
Your assertion that only Humans can be Paladins comes from older editions. Up until 3rd edition, you would have been correct. Nowadays, all the rampant specism of pre-3rd edition is kinda laughable. "Only Humans can be Paladins. Only Humans, Elves, and Half-Elves can be Rangers. Only Humans and Half-Elves can be Bards. Only Humans and Half-Elves can be Druids. Only Humans may advance to 20th level in any class."
To actually make a useful contribution, I allow Paladins in DL. I don't, however, allow Favored Souls. I know they're completely different RP wise from Mystics, but no spontaneous divine caster should be better than the Mystic. Until I get around to making Mystics better or toning down Favored Souls, FSs are out.
Paladins are mostly the "peasant Knight" type, coming out of poverty to help the misfortuned and impoverished. They're the everyman's champion, helping out anyone who needs it. Thusly, most Paladins in my DL take the Vow of Poverty.
|#20zombiegleemaxMay 13, 2004 9:42:24||I think that the elfes, dwarfs and other have enough advantage opposite to human. And so i quest at first what is the defenition of Paladin that we have the same starting position to debate.|
|#21theredrobedwizardMay 13, 2004 11:12:32|
A Paladin, in the Dungeons and Dragons v3.5 sense (which I assume we're talking about unless otherwise specified), is a Lawful Good holy warrior. That holy warrior may serve a church, an idea, or just the pure alignment of Lawful Good.
There is your definition. Debate from there.
|#22zombiegleemaxMay 13, 2004 11:16:41||Elfs and Dwarfs have church? Thats new for me. Human have mighty and great empire with great religion. So they can make Paladin.|
|#23zombiegleemaxMay 13, 2004 14:06:44||The church is optional. The paladin may serve the church. But I'd find it hard to imagine that the dwarves and elves do not have a temple of sort where they worship their gods.|
Also, I could easily see the Silvanesti producing some paladins; they seem more lawful to me, with their caste system and all. Hell, the Qualinesti don't seem too chaotic either.
|#24zombiegleemaxMay 13, 2004 14:15:56||ok knight, where are the absolut big benefits of elves or dwarfs about humans? i think that after all the human is the strongest race and the race that is most common in the realm of Ansalon.|
if you want to state that dwarfs or elves are stronger because of their abilities, i still think that the human is better with his free feat and his extra skill points.
following the game rules, paladins dont have to come from a church, but after all that is the way it seems more common, but what has the size of a church to do with the abilities of its followers? i dont think that there is a human who is more devoted to reorx than a dwarf, maybe there is also no human priest of reorx who might be higher then a dwarfen cleric, but that is hard to as long as not all the important ppls of the church are explicitly named by the creators.
after all i would say there will be more human paladins / KoS then from all the other races together, but after all there should be some devoted of any race (maybe not the kenders and gnomes...) who follower their god or their believes in such a way that they would be paladins
|#25zombiegleemaxMay 13, 2004 14:24:05||I play AD&D Dragonlance in time. And there is the bonus for Elfs and Dwarfs high. There are Elfs Powerchars.|
|#26zombiegleemaxMay 13, 2004 14:24:59||The only races they allow to be Officially KoS are Humans and Half Elves. All other races are, at best, honoured by them (ie. Kaz and Kharas.|
As for churchs and Paladins, it's a well known fact that the Elves had huge temples to E'li, Quenesit Pah/Quen Illumini and The Blue Phoenix (Paladine, Mishakal and Habbakuk respectively). That's covered in many books.
For as semi-specific example of Elven Paladins, open up the Age of Mortals book to page 77, read the for paragraph about The Lost Star, the sword of Kalith Rian... Elven Paladin ;)
|#27zombiegleemaxMay 13, 2004 14:59:25||I think here is ambiguous with church. A church and a temple are both Buildings for Gods. But i think that with church by paladin is not meant the churchbuilding but the organisation.|
|#28zombiegleemaxMay 13, 2004 15:26:50||All clerics on Ansalon belong to massive organization, the Holy Orders of the Stars. That consists of all the organized faiths of the true gods of Krynn on Ansalon, good, evil, or neutral.|
|#29zombiegleemaxMay 13, 2004 16:39:07||Well.....it is exceptionally obvious that the demihuman races have organized religion groups, faiths, a church. The demihumans have just the same capacity for religious fervor that humans do....an elf could be a paladin dedicated to Paladine, or in the 5th Age Majere...Just for example.|
|#30nukeMay 13, 2004 17:08:04||It should also be noted that Knights of Solamnia are almost always Solamnic. Caramon's sons were the first members of the knighthood allowed in that were not Solamnic. They also tend to be blue bloods... concerned with ancestory and nobility.|
So, not only would dwarfs and Minotaurs make good paladins, but humans who aren't solamnic and aren't nobility would as well. Being a paladin is a calling, and someone who doesn't grow up weening on the tales of their ancestors knightly exploits probably wouldn't have an interest in being a solamnic knight, and would therefore not interpret their calling as such. But they would still answer their calling by becoming paladins.
|#31zombiegleemaxMay 15, 2004 9:20:49||I think paladins are a not only an accpetable class but a necessary class for DL especially in the 5th Age. After the gods "disappear" all these knights are left without patrons. I would think some would look internally and like mystics find the power the power granted to them before by the gods. I have a campaign that is taking place on Krynn but not on Ansalon or Taladas and I use paladins as not divine warriors but champions of Good and Evil without ties to gods. Gods all have their own agendas and make comprimises, paladins do not. They might work with a dieties agents for a time but will never serve one due to the fact that they may be asked to do something against their alignment by said divine patron. TThey may honor, praise a gods actions, or work alongside a god but they will never commit to a god. Neither will they swear loyalty or fealty to a mortal. They are philisophical warriors that fight for either Good or Evil. Anyway, that's my take on paladins and it fills that void of someone fighting for good but disillusioned by the gods due to their track record.|
|#32zombiegleemaxMay 15, 2004 22:01:56||*shameless plug*|
Hmm...that would sound great for paladins using mysticism. Maybe you'd like to take a gander at dragonlance.com for my articles on paladins, and my mystic paladin variant.