Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax May 19, 2004 6:12:49	i was reading a very long thread about 5th Age, 4th age, divided fans and so on... i don't want to start another or those threads, i personally think one age is as good as another, it's just a matter of personal taste... point is, my personal taste prefers the 4th Age, and i wonder... what if the Chaos War and the War of Souls never happened? what if Chaos was never released and Thakisis never stole the world? how would Ansalon be, on the year 424 of the Fourth Age ?
#2 hatrel May 19, 2004 7:40:30	I believe that it would have been similar to Tasslehoff's first trip to the future to see Caramon's Funeral. From Memory I think...One Elf Nation under Silvanoshei, with Gilthas as the head Diplomat, Palin the Head of the White Robes, Dalamar, the Black. Major Peace and Prosperity for all...
#3 zombiegleemax May 19, 2004 8:42:50	In the year 424 AC... I can see a future with Ansalon firmly in the grip of the Empire of Neraka, with an ageing but still mighty Emperor Ariakan commanding the Knights of Takhisis in a series of bloody campaigns of conquest, carrying the banners of the Dark Queen to Taladas, Adlatum and lands beyond. The Solamnic Knighthood has been utterly exterminated, and the airborne legions of dark dragonriders armed with Abyssal Lances have driven the metallic dragons back to their home isles. The Orders of High Sorcery still survive at the sufferance of Ariakan's whim, but have been forced into a humiliating treaty with the Knights of the Thorn that permits Grey Robe monitors at all Conclaves. As for the deities of light and balance, their clergy are persecuted and their undergound congregations constantly in fear of discovery at the the hands of the Knighthood's everpresent spy network. Ergoth, Thorbardin and a handful of the stronger nations retain some semblance of self-government, but must accept Knighthood garrisons, erect public temples to Takhisis, pay tribute to the Emperor, and provide troops for his never-ending overseas wars. Qualinesti and Silvanesti are ruled directly by Dark Knight military governors, with a corrupt remnant of the nobility aiding in the subjugation of the elven people; the Kagonesti, however, still hold out in the forests of Southern Ergoth, giving refuge to a few remnants of the Kanan and Starbreeze royal families. One of the few independent races to flourish are the minotaurs - Takhisis is pleased with the loyal aid the naval armadas of the Bloodsea Isles have given her cause, and the minotaur nation has been granted extensive colonies and slave-worked estates on the eastern coast of Ansalon. Bloodsea minotaur soldiers even fight at the forefront of Ariakan's bloody war against the Minotaur League in distant Taladas - the god Sargas smiles upon this battle between his favoured children, believing that it will ultimately strengthen the minotaur race. Ansalon groans in the iron grip of tyranny, and the oceans of Krynn are diluted with blood. Never has there been such a need for a new generation of heroes... well, just my personal Vision of the future / present.
#4 zombiegleemax May 19, 2004 15:50:30	Almost sounds like a reveresed Istar/Kingpriest rule
#5 zombiegleemax May 19, 2004 21:42:44	Originally posted by Darlantan Almost sounds like a reveresed Istar/Kingpriest rule That's where I drew inspiration for the idea from; I've always wanted to either play in or run a game in a alternate universe where Ariakan and the Knights attained complete victory in Ansalon - in fact, I've always felt that this would have been the most likely outcome if the Chaos War had never taken place. Its also a great excuse for an apocalyptic battle in Taladas between the Knights of Takhisis and the Imperial League of Minotaurs, which I've always speculated about.
#6 Soulsong May 19, 2004 22:28:38	I am not a fan of oppressive worlds generally, but this idea, given enough time, historical perspective, and detail sounds like a campaign I would like much better than the existing canon. Our campaigns take place 100 or so years after WotL to give the DM enough distance from the WotL to do what he wants without conflict. This also gives the players some distance from the overshadowing of NPCs from the novels. We have played through a fierce battle with a secret organization of big T. Interestingly enough, this was well before any mention of KoT, and so we have retrofitted them to that. Silvanesti has just recovered from the corruption of Lorac. Southern Ergoth is a stage for the Ogrewars vs Solamnia. Lemish and Solamnia just fought a war that our PCs played a major role in. All of the deities (with some level of nvolvement from PCs) have dealt with a group of interloper deities in the last 10 years before they could get a foot hold on Krynn. When we want high adventure, our DM obliges. When it becomes frustratingly oppressive, we work together to calm things down. I think that some fans of the 5th age and beyond might say that it is too static and too peaceful, but I think those are problems with the DM and players, not the Campaign world.
#7 maladaar May 20, 2004 1:01:52	I would not have envisioned the Knights of Takhisis taking that strong a hold over Krynn. Remember they only won in DoSF, because Paladine allowed them to in order to have all of the races unite to fight against Chaos. I would envision that both the Knights of Takhisis and Solamnic Knights engaging in battles in various parts of Krynn (both trying to achieve the strategic advantage). I could also see the Solamnic Knights creating a reluctant alliance with the WoHS, in order to better battle the Knights of the Thorn.
#8 hatrel May 20, 2004 8:15:50	Originally posted by Maladaar I would not have envisioned the Knights of Takhisis taking that strong a hold over Krynn. Remember they only won in DoSF, because Paladine allowed them to in order to have all of the races unite to fight against Chaos. I would envision that both the Knights of Takhisis and Solamnic Knights engaging in battles in various parts of Krynn (both trying to achieve the strategic advantage). I could also see the Solamnic Knights creating a reluctant alliance with the WoHS, in order to better battle the Knights of the Thorn. I agree with this whole-heartedly!!!!
#9 zombiegleemax May 20, 2004 10:35:34	Originally posted by Maladaar I would not have envisioned the Knights of Takhisis taking that strong a hold over Krynn. Remember they only won in DoSF, because Paladine allowed them to in order to have all of the races unite to fight against Chaos. I guess we'll never know for sure - but the Dark Knights were winning the war in Ansalon even before Paladine's bargain with Takhisis. With the fall of the High Clerist's Tower, Ariakan could have poured his legions into central Solamnia for a decisive clash with the remaining forces of the Solamnic Knights. If victorious in such a battle, the Dark Knights could then reduce Thelgaard Keep, Solanthus and other southern strongholds at leisure. The Solamnic colony on Sancrist could then have been taken by a minotaur-led naval force, and Ariakan's greatest foe, the Knights of Solamnia, would be laid low. With a steady flow of seaborne supplies and reinforcements coming into the ports of Kalaman and Palanthas, the forces of Takhisis would be in a strong position to strike southwards at the weakened and disunited elven nations, just as new weapons such as the Abyssal Lances began to come into play. Meanwhile, the assault on the Wizards of High Sorcery by the Thorn Knights would continue unabated, diverting critical magical assistance away from the free nations of Ansalon. At this time, also, the first Abyssal Lances would have begun to be issued to dragonriders... Beyond a certain point, of course it all gets very speculative, but I still feel that with the right combination of skillful strategy, momentum, the application of overwhelming force, and of course good luck, Ariakan could have attained a complete and lasting military victory in Ansalon.
#10 zombiegleemax May 21, 2004 9:35:50	i understand the KoT were very disciplined and Ariakan was a great tactician... but were they really so powerful? i mean... let's talk about quantities... how many KoT were stuffed in their Keep (Stormkeep, IIRC)? all they knew, they learned from Ariakan, and all Ariakan knew, he learned from the Knights of Solamnia... i've never fully understood how Ariakan could attain such a complete victory... i suppose the KoS, togheter with all the other nations of the world, should have crushed the dark knights, maybe after an initial defeat, ok... was everybody sleeping, at that time?
#11 Illithidbix May 21, 2004 19:02:17	Originally posted by Delazar i understand the KoT were very disciplined and Ariakan was a great tactician... but were they really so powerful? i mean... let's talk about quantities... how many KoT were stuffed in their Keep (Stormkeep, IIRC)? all they knew, they learned from Ariakan, and all Ariakan knew, he learned from the Knights of Solamnia... i've never fully understood how Ariakan could attain such a complete victory... ? There is a difference bettween knowing about something and understanding how to apply it, I always viewed Ariakan as a genius who could both studied stratergy and also understand the subject. He learnt so much about the Knights, however as he did not adhere to their philosophy he could also examine the teachings of the Solamanics with a more critical eye than the solamanics themselves could, hense he could understand the weaknesses of the solamanics when they themselves could not. I agree with the comment about the numbers of Knights, but then Krynn seems to have a surprisingly large number of solamnic knights for that matter as well...
#12 zombiegleemax May 22, 2004 3:33:26	Originally posted by Delazar i mean... let's talk about quantities... how many KoT were stuffed in their Keep (Stormkeep, IIRC)? The thing is, the Knights of Takhisis from Storm's Keep merely comprised a small core of Ariakan's armies - the officers, planning staff, dragonriders, and specialized wizard and cleric units. The vast bulk of the soldiers were Tarmak barbarians and foreign mercenaries, who seemed to greatly outnumber the available Solamnic footsoldiers and levies. Supporting this land force was a great ( minotaur crewed? ) naval armada which presumably was well able to ship in reinforcements from the Tarmak continent and other lands. Ariakan had planned long and carefully to ensure that he had numerical superiority.
#13 gamileo May 24, 2004 23:21:01	Ah but you are forgetting one tenet of Dragonlance, its based on balance. There would be an over crushing evil, but just as there was an over crushing good, it would be destroyed. It is not beyond the gods of good and neutrality to cause havok in the world of evil u plot. And i think, most reasonably, that the wizards in the towers would spank any knights of the thorn, mainly because the tower itself wouldnt let the knights of the thorn in. They cant find something that doesnt want to be found. and as we saw evidentally even the tower in palanthus could be moved too. I think it would be a much bigger fight, i think the pirates and privateers of ergoth and the new sea and other places would join together to smash the minotaur navy, or at least try. And how does a navy such as that do against legions of bronze dragons? The moment the evil dragons come back, so do the good, and they would fight, and fight hard. IT would not be so easy as u make it sound, arikan was great, but so was his father, and his father was defeated by a scraggly half elf. I think it would not be so pleasant as tas s vision, but a much more balanced one, with the two sides of the coin constantly fighting, perhaps even a cold war? Oh, and i highly doubt the dwarves would let any nerakan near thier mountain, that or they would just shut themselves in and not even worry about the pesky humans outside. There is so much more to this as well. but i tire, and must sleep