Other topics I've raised about making a manual for are "The Far Side of the Silt Sea" (where details of my own campains in that area are fleshed out and put out there for everyone to see) and "The Cleansing Wars" (the title's a bit deceptive as it actually takes place at near the beginning of those wars). The Cleansing Wars project was aced once the public on the old boards decided they liked the history to be a bit of a mystery and the Far Side of the Silt Sea is on hold mainly because there's so much to explore in the current setting (doubling the area would not add a lot of value at this point).
One thing that would be useful now, or in the near future, would be a pdf on the planes specific to Athas. While these are briefly touched on in Air, Earth, Water and Fire, they are not detailed out. Likewise, the Grey and the Black are only touched on in various books. I was thinking of making a book that actually went into a great deal of detail in a style similar to the Planescape books on the Inner planes (since that's where most of the focus would be).
Is there interest out there for a project like this, or am I spinning my wheels?
Structures, landscapes, places to go to? Can't see that, not sure I want to either.
What did you had in mind?
Elemental locals would be great, since I hate imagining that somewhere in the Plane of Fire is the City of Brass with its earth djinnis or something...
/me shudders
If the elemental planes can be made athasian (as in our own private cosmology) then it would be really great.
I never liked what Planescape, and D&D in general, did with elemental lords and such. If they can be preserved and transformed into more athasian specimens, then I'd read that accessory. Yeah.
(Hey, mine's a pretty negative sounding post here. Mmm. Oh well...)
My thoughts on the Grey and the Black would be more rules-specific than anything, although there could certainly be dwellers in either realm that are only found there (do not enter the "Prime" but love it when morsals come their way). "Locations" in either of these planes would be exceedingly rare. Maybe an "area of interest" or two where certain powerful undead gather, or the wake left by a slain Dragon King, or whatever, but this would not be the main focus.
As your post suggests, the main focus would be the Elemental and Paraelemental planes. Perhaps a section on travel to other planes (how it can't be done?), but the bulk would be focussed on the Elements. I have a few ideas for the Elemental Lords and Athas' creation, but I might keep those to myself rather than inject them into this project.
Oh, I'm using Para and Quasi interchangably, even though they are different - just easier to say one or the other instead of both.
I'll admit that I'm not a huge fan of the 3e Manual of the Planes, but for consistency's sake, I might have to bend on that.
Sounds like a really cool project. Just some random thoughts:Despite the largely "Athas is isolated from the multiverse" approach, there do seem some connections. You have gith, implying Astral connections, and that undead guy running around the Outer Planes, and other such references here & there. I'm seriously tempted to say that athas should have a set of Outer Planes. However, these shouldn't be the planes from core D&D. Instead, maybe something a little more "cuthulu-ish" (although that has become cliche'). Planes without real gods, but maybe critters on par with the sorcerer kings (or even more powerful, maybe on par with "slap Rajaat around" scale), perhaps planes of primal chaos or somesuch deal. Certainly not paradises, though! :D
There are a great number of people who loved the Planescape structure of the planes (outer, inner, prime) and I was one of them. 3e has changed a great deal, though, and a lot of people have adapted to that, structuring Athas as it's own special thing. Because of these two schools of thought, I'll just provide the doorway. What GMs find when they go through it is up to them.
Originally posted by Nightdruid
I certainly would be interested!
Despite the largely "Athas is isolated from the multiverse" approach, there do seem some connections. You have gith, implying Astral connections, and that undead guy running around the Outer Planes, and other such references here & there. I'm seriously tempted to say that athas should have a set of Outer Planes. However, these shouldn't be the planes from core D&D. Instead, maybe something a little more "cuthulu-ish" (although that has become cliche'). Planes without real gods, but maybe critters on par with the sorcerer kings (or even more powerful, maybe on par with "slap Rajaat around" scale), perhaps planes of primal chaos or somesuch deal. Certainly not paradises, though! :D
Well, if you worked with the idea that the Gray is a barrier (as presented in Preservers & DefilerS), that separates Athas from everything else - that would mean that while the Outer Planes exist, they aren't possible to reach from Athas. There are exceptions for this, however I think that for the Outer Planes, the "Great Wheel" philosophy would be the easiest and best solution. It's just that gods simply can't reach Athas. There's the Planar Gate which Dregoth is sitting on (I see him rubbing it fondly and whispering "my precioussss"), there was the one Githyanki incursion (well, I think, actually 2 of them, if I remember correctly), and the situation of Ravenloft & Kalidnay. Other than that, Athas is damned near impossible to reach from the Outer Planes (or transitive planes) as well as to reach from Athas to them. The Gray needs to be....removed for that to work correctly.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
As a Planescape GM in addition to being a Dark Sun GM, I have a special place in my heart for that setting. I'm planning on including ways of getting to the Planes, but they'll be very difficult. I'm not sure if I'll include the Outer Planes (or whatever passes for them on Athas) mainly for the reason that's suggested between your post and my own:
You certainly have a sympathetic ear here...;)
If you want to go with that approach, you could certainly could do something like in the MotP: have athas have its own set of planes, and then connect them via a transit plane to the PS multiverse. I just like the thought of athas having its own set of outer planes
Me personally I would rather keep it closed off much like Dawn is doing and if you do happen to get out it's either going to be to Ravenloft or Athas' own outer planes.
Just MO.
The Astral plane is good to have just for the Githyanki and Githzerai.
I think Hill Giant's quick and simple cosmology on the planes was good enough to use as is. The DM then has lots of room to expand anything he/she wants. Its posted on Athas.org just in case anybody hasn't seen it.
Originally posted by Tembo-Pie
Personally, I don't think Athas needs demons, devils, or angels running around, so no outer planes works just fine for me.
The Astral plane is good to have just for the Githyanki and Githzerai.
I think Hill Giant's quick and simple cosmology on the planes was good enough to use as is. The DM then has lots of room to expand anything he/she wants. Its posted on Athas.org just in case anybody hasn't seen it.
If I recall, the Gray was a bizarre crossing/mixing of the Ethereal and Astral planes, and by virtue of it's existence, all the transitive and outer planes are separated from Athas normally. They still exist, but Athas is walled off from them. Yes, the Githyanki (and even Githzeri, if memory serves about the connection with the Athasian Gith) did penetrate it once or twice - but this makes sense - they live in the Astral Plane, so they can constantly be trying to study this anomaly to gain access and invade. But even then, it hasn't been easy for them, as shown by the limited times they've made the transition. the Black is like the metaphysical Shadow of Athas itself, within the Gray, or something like that, possibly the result of the Plane of Shadowds getting severed and part of it still being trapped within the Gray while the rest is outside of it.
Somehow, by virtue of the existence of the Gray, the connection to external energies, through the positive and negative energy planes, got jumbled up, and the Gray kinda serves as a source for negative energy. Dunno about the positive energy - perhaps there's only a finite amount of this, and as a result, the degredation of the world reflects the slow "leaking" of positive energy that could result in a complete loss of it from Athas all together eventually. The Elemental (and para, quasi, etc) planes are possibly reconginzing this, and thus providing what they can to fuel the positive energy that they can to keep it around, thus they are attempting to keep the balance - hence the divine energies that spring from them.
However, The Gray serves as Astral and Ethereal for Athas - spells that require either of those planes to exist work by virtue of the Gray's dual-nature. Spells requiring the Plane of Shadows work because of the existence of the Black - the closest thing to the Plane of Shadows Athas has. The Hollow is more like a demiplane that is inside the Black, and other than the distortion of the positive & negative energy planes, the other inner planes still are more-or-less intact.
what makes Dregoth's portal so special is that somehow, using psionics, some powerful individual (or group of individuals) developed a device that could actually pierce the Gray and reach the Outer Planes. Unfortunately, the names of the individual(s) who made it are lost to time, possibly because of the denziens of the plane that they connected to snatched them away and have been doing horrible things to them since - the Devils of Baator. What Dregoth has been doing with that artifact, besides calling it "my precious", is probably detailed in Dregoth Ascending, which, with any luck, Athas.org may eventually get rolled out here.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Like I was saying, my solution is a bit of a dodge: I'll state that travel to other planes is possible by (exceedingly difficult) process X. Whether those other planes are an Athasian exclusive, original planes, or the Baator/Arcadia/Limbo/etc planes that all us Planescape GMs know and love, will be entirely up to the GM.
works for me.
The Gray is the ultimate barrier between Athas and the Outer Planes, and Athas has its own Astral Plane, which is an finite portion of the infinite Standard Astral Plane (and, mathemathecally, a finite portion of the infinite is itself infinite). I´m talking about something like this:
Standard Astral Plane (MotP).
The Grey
Athasian Astral Plane
Athasian Ethereal Plane
Athas Prime
Athas Shadow Plane (the Black)
Athas Interior Plane, with 10 layers (4 elementals, 4 paraelementals, 2 energy).
The Standard Astral Plane has some anormal gates which appear sometimes and which leads only to the Grey.
And, if you are in the grey or in any other of the AthasVerse Planes, the only Astral you can go is the Athasian Astral Plane. You can´t go to the MotP Athas Plane or the Outher Planes from Athas, without an artifact, such as the Dregoth´s gate. The common of the wizards and sages of Athas don´t know about the existence of the MotP Astral Plane: They think that the universe ends in the Grey.
This solution keeps the posibility of a independent githyanki realm (maybe populatd with sucessive generations of githyanki trapped in the grey from the MotP and leaping to the Athasian Astral Plane) in the Athasian Astral Plane, which is also filled with Psurlons and other athasian creatures.
Fray Fanatic
Of course we know that Athas is cut off from the rest of the Multi-verse for one reason or another. After reading through this thread an idea popped into my head and I decided to double check something in D&P . . . in the section about the history of magic.
My idea is that the reason Athas is isolated from the multi-verse is because of an uber magical spell. I beleive the two best events to use for the Isolation of the Planes being a side effect for is either when the Halflings were working their mojo to take the world from the Green Age to the Blue Age, or when Rajaat was imbueing his Champions causing the end of the Blue Age.
When the uber-magics were being worked on either of those occurances, it might be that the workers of those magic's inadvertantly put up those barriers. Or, possibly it was deliberate. Rajaat probably didn't want any interferance to his plans from ANYYWHERE, right?
Well . . anyway . . do with tihs what you will . .
Originally posted by Fray_Fanatic
My english is not as good as I would like, but here are my two cents:
The Gray is the ultimate barrier between Athas and the Outer Planes, and Athas has its own Astral Plane, which is an finite portion of the infinite Standard Astral Plane (and, mathemathecally, a finite portion of the infinite is itself infinite). I´m talking about something like this:
Standard Astral Plane (MotP).
The Grey
Athasian Astral Plane
Athasian Ethereal Plane
Athas Prime
Athas Shadow Plane (the Black)
Athas Interior Plane, with 10 layers (4 elementals, 4 paraelementals, 2 energy).
The Standard Astral Plane has some anormal gates which appear sometimes and which leads only to the Grey.
And, if you are in the grey or in any other of the AthasVerse Planes, the only Astral you can go is the Athasian Astral Plane. You can´t go to the MotP Athas Plane or the Outher Planes from Athas, without an artifact, such as the Dregoth´s gate. The common of the wizards and sages of Athas don´t know about the existence of the MotP Astral Plane: They think that the universe ends in the Grey.
This solution keeps the posibility of a independent githyanki realm (maybe populatd with sucessive generations of githyanki trapped in the grey from the MotP and leaping to the Athasian Astral Plane) in the Athasian Astral Plane, which is also filled with Psurlons and other athasian creatures.
Fray Fanatic
The problem is that They Gray is the Ethereal and Astral Planes, merged. and while the black could be a fragment of the Shadow Plane, it also has some other qualities to it, making is also similar to trhe plane of nightmares. Athas isn't connected to the Astral plane beyond the Gray, otherwise travel to the outer planes would be, indeed, possible and quite easy.
Also
Originally posted by WilliamPall
Alright, I'm not sure if you'd be interested in getting this info . . . but do with it what you will.
Of course we know that Athas is cut off from the rest of the Multi-verse for one reason or another. After reading through this thread an idea popped into my head and I decided to double check something in D&P . . . in the section about the history of magic.
My idea is that the reason Athas is isolated from the multi-verse is because of an uber magical spell. I beleive the two best events to use for the Isolation of the Planes being a side effect for is either when the Halflings were working their mojo to take the world from the Green Age to the Blue Age, or when Rajaat was imbueing his Champions causing the end of the Blue Age.
When the uber-magics were being worked on either of those occurances, it might be that the workers of those magic's inadvertantly put up those barriers. Or, possibly it was deliberate. Rajaat probably didn't want any interferance to his plans from ANYYWHERE, right?
Well . . anyway . . do with tihs what you will . .
cool idea, but I think that the sealing of Athas probably occured at the end of the Blue Age, with the use of the Pristine Tower. a sort of unexpected side-effect from using that device, which used the energy of the sun to destroy the brown tide. I do like to blame a few things on the Blue Age halflings - who seemed to damn the consequences, and just use the Pristine Tower, regardless of what the side-effects were.
Short version: There is a plague that begins to spread across the outer planes, consuming everything in its path, including the powers. The Powers trap this blight in the Inner Planes and then banish it (in a rare show of solidarity). Thus, Athas is cut off from the rest of the multiverse and possesses a good deal of the elements.
While it was supposed to simply die off, the Blight survived due to the creatures that were caught within it when the Powers banished it.
In the original version, the primarily lifeform was mephits surviving in pockets of matter still untouched by the Blight (everything else was smart enough, or paying enough attention to get the hell out), but I don't think they'd be quite powerful enough, even given an infinite amount of time and no competition. They rose in power until they were able to collectively create a planet, then they created life, and worked their way up to Halflings, who eventually started worshipping them and thus turned them into god-like equivalents entitled "Elemental Lords." It sounds just narcisistic enough to be something a mephit would do.
Life-shapers and life-benders rose in power and fought each other. Life-benders tapped into the Blight and accidentally unleashed it on Athas. They were mostly destroyed in the process, although a few would escape and form the Kreen through much life-bending.
The rest is pretty much history: the halflings used the Pristine Tower to combat the Blight, but forever changed their world in the process.
Rajaat would later tap into the Blight and discover magic, a process that feeds on life to feed its power, and was nearly killed by it.
Realize it's a bit controversial and many of you won't agree with it at all, so I'm asking before I toss it into an Athasian Manual of the Planes. I bring it up, because I think some explanation, after all this time, is called for.
No need to explain athas's place in the grander multiverse because DS owes nothing, and shouldn't ow a single explanation, to the rest of D&D.
There never was any indication that the Gray appeared at a specific time, so I sincerly believe that the first sentient athasian in the deep past to have reached a state of consciousness found his spirit cast into the Gray upon its death. The Gray has always been there. What defines it, to my eyes, is not that its a barrier between athas and the rest of the multiverse, but that its the resting place of people's spirits.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Okay, here's another question: What you guys (lurkers included) like to see in an Athasian Manual of the Planes? What would help you GM or play?
Using the format of how the planes are defined in the MotP, I'd like a listing of each of the Athasian planes/cosmology. Possibly even some art to give a better pictures, ala the compas-stuff used in the MotP - maybe something like a distorted version of the same type of graphics, but fitting Dark Sun.... or something.
There's a lot of ways to go with this and I'm planning on making roughly a 100-200 page book out of this. I have a plan for what I'll include, but I might change that if enough people say the same things.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
The art's in the bag, my question is more one of what is needed. Should their be descriptions of the planes? New rules governing those planes? New classes? New races? Focus on broad ideas or focus on specific areas or events and allow the GM to create their own broad ideas?
There's a lot of ways to go with this and I'm planning on making roughly a 100-200 page book out of this. I have a plan for what I'll include, but I might change that if enough people say the same things.
Ok.....
1. Description of the planes: Black, Gray, Elemental, Paaraelemental, (Quasielemental?), Demiplanes like the Hollow as well.
2. I'd prefer to see use of the rules already defined in the MotP, however if there's something about a plane that isn't included already, it probably should be added in. don't forget that the DMG does change some of these rules.
3. Classes - not entirely certian about this one. There are so few planes, adding in classes might not seem right. But that's just me.
4. Races - not too certian about this. Just because with ToA & TotDL, there are a TON of creatures for Dark Sun, I'm not for making up new things just to fill the planes when the Athasian planes should have more of a empty feel to them in my opinion (the exception being the [para/quasi]elemental planes, of course.
5. The focus should be, probably at the same scope that they are for the Manual of the Planes. Each plane taken indivudually, as well as a grouping as to how they interconnect and function together.
If psionics are trully linked to the Gray, then explaining that, cosmologically-speaking, could lead to new rules, like feats and PrCs.
For those of you who have read the book, think of the treatment that was given to the origin and arrival of the species. It was known that; the Illithids had a huge empire in the distant past, this empire was crushed by a huge slave revolt. This revolt somehow sprung up on millions of worlds at the EXACT SAME time. Does this smell fishy to you? There was never a reason given as to how and why it happened. Even the main players of the revolt are shrouded in mystery, no one knows what exactly the fate of Gith or Zerthimon. It was left open for your own devious little mind to fill in the blanks. (come to think of it, who was in charge of the Illithid side? He/she is probably dead but...)
There has a second, subservient god named Manzacorian. Why is he subserviant? what was the relationship between the two gods? Were they brothers? Was he a hero of the species? A creation of Illesine's?
Illesine is credited with the creation of the species. CREDITED. He never clamed to do it, there is no story as to why he did it. Further, there is no story of the origin of Illesine (except a non-official one a saw on the 'net called "the shame of the Baatezu" which I really liked)
The home world of the Illithids is a mystery. They are invaders everwhere they go. There are some titilating bits about the "Far Realm", but why are creatures from such an alien enviroment so dependant on humaniods for survival?
The end result was a book that gave alot of info, but left the mystery open to the interpretation of the reader. I love alot of the opinions I see on this board but don't use them all. I would like to see a style of book which went something like this...
"Planar travel to or from Athas has been next to impossible in all recorded historys. In fact planar travel is so difficult, the vast majority of scholars and most sorceror kings are unaware of the existance. If a player character somehow became aware of the possibility of planar travel, he/she would have to accomplish several nearly insurmountable tasks."
<>
"Athas-space or Dark-space is not located on any spelljammer maps it is not known if this is because of distance or other factors. However, even if athas is known to some spacefarers, there has never been an incident of a spelljammer reported on Athas"
<>
In the Illithiad, whenever the author wanted to give you information on a mystery, they gave it in the form of a quote from some scholar, a fractional piece of a record or artifact, or just as and open ended question. As an example, it was discussed that Elder Brians shunted excess mass to the Astral Plane and if threatened, transported bodily to the Astral Plane never able to return. BUT, no one had ever seen an Elder Brian on the Astral Plane.
What I am trying to say is that if you were to right that planar travel became improbable when the halflings used the pristine tower, you may get a lot of crap thrown at you. But, if you simply reported that travel is now nearly impossible, records indicated that it was not always that way ( like it says in the preamble of the "official timeline" ). Then give some of the major theories as to who is responsible; Outer Planar god(s), Halflings, Rajaat, The sorceror kings, George of the jungle, whatever.
I see so many good ideas on these boards and it is a shame that in many cases one gets picked as the "best" and the others are forgotten by the DS community. If you were to write a book in this fashion there could be alot of campaign seeds, happy people, and snazzy content that would keep well read players guessing.
The secret of making it palatable to DSers is to strip it of spelljaming and science-fiction elements. After all there are rhulisti halflings still alive in hibernation near the Pristine Tower, wating for God knows what to reawaken. If that is not a science-fiction concept, than what is?
I think Nyt managed to rationalized the space-halflings in an argument he laid down.
Originally posted by Pennarin
There is nothing inherently wrong with a concept of halflings taking to space, IMO.
The secret of making it palatable to DSers is to strip it of spelljaming and science-fiction elements. After all there are rhulisti halflings still alive in hibernation near the Pristine Tower, wating for God knows what to reawaken. If that is not a science-fiction concept, than what is?
I think Nyt managed to rationalized the space-halflings in an argument he laid down.
Well, still working on that.
Lynn is the one that actually made me ponder it more when I approached her about the pdf that is out there now as well as information on the space halflings rumor that she stated on the mailing list some time ago.
Going to GenCon and talking to Bill Slavicsek killed the rumor part, it's actually true, and his idea from what I can gather.
Lynn was approached to make a book about it once the time came to unveil it but that was right before TSR killed DS for other reasons I won't get into on these boards (wonder story about it though :D ).
She was completely appalled about it, but took it a slightly different angle than what Bill wanted to do with it.
Bill wanted them to be presented as the "saviors" of Athas and have the current population ban with them to take out the SMs and such. Bleah, no thanks.
Lynn's however, was much, much, more interesting. Think of it this way, take the worse cultural war you can think of from history or one that could happen in the future, now darken it quite a bit and add shades of gray and you will get what the space halfling invasion *should* be all about.
To me, it would be a cultural war on the scale that no one would know who is the "bad guy" and who is the "good guy", one where the lines can't be seen and are merged.
That to me, would be the space halfling invasion in a nut shell.
Something I plan to develop later for my world.
Space Halflings and Crystal Spheres have nothing to do with the Inner Planes of Athas: Move it to a different thread or stay on track.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Whoa!
Space Halflings and Crystal Spheres have nothing to do with the Inner Planes of Athas: Move it to a different thread or stay on track.
Damn right! Pennarin and Nyt, you should be ashamed! You should...dwelf on it more before posting...
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Whoa!
Space Halflings and Crystal Spheres have nothing to do with the Inner Planes of Athas: Move it to a different thread or stay on track.
Stay on target...
Well the gray is nothing more than a clog in a drain.
People die, the clog gets bigger.
Now, what's outside that clog?
I would like to think some sort of outer planes thing that is similar to the great wheel, but no where near as complex, only because it's been done with every other freaking campaign setting, and I like everything about my Dark Sun unique.
So you could just cheap out and go with the Great Wheel thing, or you can create your own outer planes for DS, either way works, since officially it's been established that something does exist outside of the gray anyways.
The black I like to see as xlorep see's it, just a cut off part of the shadow plane that RL still touches, hence, there being at least one gate from DS to RL (I have at least three in my campaign).
Where am I going with this? I have no idea since I'm too lazy to actually put work into something like this and will probably just go with a modified version of Hill Giant's and am just trying to make up for being off topic on Dawn's thread.
Sorry Dawn! :D
The various ways that the elements/elemental lords relate to Athas seem to be essential elements of the setting - the clerics, the battle between elemental and para-elemental clerics, how druids fit into that, the nature of the elemental vortices that the SKs use to grant templar spells.
There's an awful lot of stuff that could be done beyond the basic travel guide to the planes and the origins of the whole set up.
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
Like the hint dropped in Uncaged: Faces of Sigil (Planescape) that it was in fact a rogue rilmani that inspired Rajaat to develope defiler magic.
Or the fact that there are athasian elves living in the third layer of Arborea.
Its not a biggie, its just that it would put a little smile on an old Planewalker's face when reading it.
Thank you for doing what you do BTW!
Originally posted by taotad
Like the hint dropped in Uncaged: Faces of Sigil (Planescape) that it was in fact a rogue rilmani that inspired Rajaat to develope defiler magic.
Apparently, the people at planescape were also limited in their knowledge of Dark Sun - Rajaat has never left Athas for any of the Outer Planes. If he had, he wouldn't have spent so much resources and research in figuring out HOW to do if throughout the Cleansing Wars.
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
Originally posted by Sysane
I think Rajaat did have his top Wizards working on the studying the outerplanes? Wasn't it one of his students that caused the obsidian to spillout creating the Dead Lands?
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
Qwith was on it then got demoted and the new guy that took her place caused the obsidian plains to form.
Can't remember his name right now.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Qwith was on it then got demoted and the new guy that took her place caused the obsidian plains to form.
Can't remember his name right now.
I think it was Gretch, and I think he is named in the tdloA The deadlands of athas de Arthur G. Lewis (stocked on my web site as pdf in the accessory section).
Originally posted by ishnid
The home world of the Illithids is a mystery. They are invaders everwhere they go. There are some titilating bits about the "Far Realm", but why are creatures from such an alien enviroment so dependant on humaniods for survival?
There is no contradiction here. That far plane might have been home for illithids, and it might become an alien environment because of magic (engineering???) used by one side of the revolt.
Thanks!
The Remembrerance
A (set of?) demiplane(s) (in the black?) that were the created during the Cleansing Wars. Each was born when the last member of a race breathed its last. The death of entire races created an enormous amount of excess psyic energy that consolidated into these demiplanes.
Each plane is a land made up entirely of the vanished races in their day-to-day lives. The beings are like illusions, without real sustanance. The planes are slowly disappearing as memories of the extinct races vanish. In time, even these rememberances of the murdered races will disappear, and it will be as if those races never existed at all.
just an oddball idea I thought I'd toss at ya
Originally posted by Nightdruid
Howabout this:
The Remembrerance
A (set of?) demiplane(s) (in the black?) that were the created during the Cleansing Wars. Each was born when the last member of a race breathed its last. The death of entire races created an enormous amount of excess psyic energy that consolidated into these demiplanes.
Each plane is a land made up entirely of the vanished races in their day-to-day lives. The beings are like illusions, without real sustanance. The planes are slowly disappearing as memories of the extinct races vanish. In time, even these rememberances of the murdered races will disappear, and it will be as if those races never existed at all.
just an oddball idea I thought I'd toss at ya
I actually like this idea. cool!
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
I actually like this idea. cool!
:D
Thinking the "Echos" might be a simplier and better name, but glad you like it! :D
Looking at past evidence, I would suggest putting those demiplanes in the Gray and not making them demiplanes at all but just zones of purposeful structuring.
1- Sadira goes to the Gray and Black. The Black is…black. There’s nothing there. The Gray is filled with mist, the spirits of the dead and personalized mental constructs that surround you or offer themselves as beacons for your guidance.
2- Tithian meets Kalak in the Gray and discovers that the old geezer knows intimate things about him – who was murdered by his hand – from talking to Tithian’s victims or other spirits who heard about them. There seems to be a bit of gossip in the Gray…
3- It’s the home to things like wraiths, which exist because of a belief in something, anything, greater than themselves. Its also the plane that helped in the creation of the Caller in Darkness (iirc?), which is a result of massive casualties on a small timescale.
Considering the above, these “memory” zones seem to be made to order as parts of the Gray, as places where the spirits of dead races still re-enact their old lives. Not unlike the subteranean netherworld kingdom of Hades and its shades.
The idea that the demiplanes – or zones - appeared when the last member of a race died seems poetic and needlessly contrived. All that is required for them to appear, or develop (just consider them as regions of the Gray that take on qualities from the collectivity of the dead race), is that the spirits do not become part of the gray mists but endure as spirits, say because of the trauma they endured, long enough that they can interact with other similar spirits (other members of their race) and start sharing a common vision. Sadira saw a huge, lifesize Pristine Tower, so I’m shure that the first few tens of thousands dead of a race (in the first years of the war) could and would do better, even if not intentionnaly.
So I do think it could be possible to go in the Gray like Tithian did and ask for direction to the gnomes and be metaphysically pointed to a seemingly ordinary patch of gray mist in the distance that, after a bit of metaphysical moving around to reach it, coalesces into a re-enactment of the gnomes’ former way of life, with gravity and a semblance of sunlight and all.
I like your suggestions for the Gray. I had been focussing on the Inner Planes and was going to mention the Gray and Black in passing (although more detail than has been spent on them so far), but I think these ideas might require a chapter of their own. Well done, guys.
These seem to be contradictions in themselves. Can't see how there could be anything there, considering that, quote: "This vast dimension of darkness separates everything that exists from everything that doesn't. Its an absence filled with numbing cold, endless darkness, and even living beings".
Shadows and Shadow People live there, but interact strongly with Athas. Can't see them living there 100% of the time, since there's nothing there but others like themselves.
Don't include the Monster Manual "Shadow" undead tho - that would be like a fish outta water in this case - undead should be part of the Gray, not the Black.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Don't include the Monster Manual "Shadow" undead tho - that would be like a fish outta water in this case - undead should be part of the Gray, not the Black.
Agree totally with you there. I included them in the above post only because I seem to recall somewhere official is a list of Black creatures or something (perhaps in Terrors of Athas or the online thread about it) that contains the Shadow and lists it as a denizen of the Black. I hate the thought, like you say, because shadows are undead, and shadow people are not. So no shadows in the Black!!
Originally posted by Pennarin
Love it!
Looking at past evidence, I would suggest putting those demiplanes in the Gray and not making them demiplanes at all but just zones of purposeful structuring.
Ok, works for me. That's why the "in the Black?" had a question mark on it; wasn't sure if it would go there or if you guys would have a better place for them
It was just an idea that popped in my head and i had like 5 minutes to write up & post before the storms hit (and hit they did...pretty much stormed all night). Figured there'd be tons of refinements.Originally posted by Dawnstealer
That's brilliant! Yeah, that will get a spot in the book, definitely. I was trying to figure out something to put in the Black other than the Hollow and was coming up short. That's an excellent filler. Good job!
Cool! Glad you liked it!Originally posted by Dawnstealer
I think he was actually referring to the Black, where the lack of vision would lend itself more to the feeling of the beings who were exterminated, although since it's demiplanes we're talking about...
You give me WAY too much credit...I just picked the Black for the simple reason of "just because". No research, no deep thought. Just because :DOn with the topic at hand; yar, the Gray makes a lot more sense. I would say that the Black is probably an invention of Nib's to keep people the hell away from the Hollow. I'd say that the Black would try to draw people deeper into it, getting them closer and closer to Rajaat's prison.
Rajaat has influence outside of the Hollow, but not much beyond the Black. Maybe even have something like Ilsensine's realm in Planescape - the closer you get, the more likely you are to go insane. Prolly have shadow giants lurking in there, somewhere. And then populate the Gray with those psuedo-demiplanes of memories.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
You've got to go with, Nightdruid! Quick, edit your post and say something like: "Yes, truly I am brilliant." And I'll keep it quiet on this side!
Not bad for a half-baked idea I had to rush to beat an onrushing storm complete with tornadoes and lots and lots of lightning :D
On with the topic at hand; yar, the Gray makes a lot more sense. I would say that the Black is probably an invention of Nib's to keep people the hell away from the Hollow. I'd say that the Black would try to draw people deeper into it, getting them closer and closer to Rajaat's prison.
Gray is probably the better choice; I didn't have time to dig out Preservers & Defilers to do proper research
Not bad for a half-baked idea I had to rush to beat an onrushing storm complete with tornadoes and lots and lots of lightning
I have my best ideas on the toilet.
Maybe I shouldn't have typed that...
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
I have my best ideas on the toilet.
Maybe I shouldn't have typed that...
Frightenly enough, me too...
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
I have my best ideas on the toilet.
I have mines smoking a cig on my doorstep...
The Dragon's Egg
Not sure if this is black or gray, but its a demiplane. Its a piece of athas that broke off during the creation of the Dragon. That act sent an egg-shaped piece of rock from the Dragon Bowl across the planes. Due to the warped magics of the dragon's final transformation, everything living inside that piece of dirt was warped. Thus insects & earthworms with the half-dragon template (all super-sized, of course).
Somewhere in the winding passages and vast caverns of this demiplane is said to be a child. The exact race, age, and gender of this child, who is said to appear perfectly normal with no deformaties (i.e. not half-dragon templated), is unknown. Who this child is, and what his/her relationship is with the Dragon remains a mystery. The creatures respect and even protect the child with unnatural ferocity and devotion.
Edit: should I just declare myself brilliant now or should you guys beat me over the head? ;)
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Is now a good time to mention I get my best ideas by talking to myself? :D
The voices in my head give me my good ideas...
Originally posted by Nightdruid
Another weird idea:
The Dragon's Egg
Always wanted to come up with something for the Dragon's bowl, though I would make it a dragon-shaped piece of rock and not an egg since that is what it looks like, unless you are saying some of it came off and now it is egg shaped.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Always wanted to come up with something for the Dragon's bowl, though I would make it a dragon-shaped piece of rock and not an egg since that is what it looks like, unless you are saying some of it came off and now it is egg shaped.
Hmmm, might have gotten my valleys mixed up. I though the Dragon bowl was fairly oval shaped, but I could be mistaken.
Originally posted by Nightdruid
Hmmm, might have gotten my valleys mixed up. I though the Dragon bowl was fairly oval shaped, but I could be mistaken.
Nope, more dragon shaped if I remember correctly.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Nope, more dragon shaped if I remember correctly.
Managed to track down a map; looks more like a rounded triangle than anything else. I certainly don't see a dragon there, unless you squint really hard and have a few cold ones...:D
Originally posted by Nightdruid
Managed to track down a map; looks more like a rounded triangle than anything else. I certainly don't see a dragon there, unless you squint really hard and have a few cold ones...:D
I stand corrected, haven't looked at the map in awhile.
Just remember it being more dragon-like shaped, hence how it got it's name.
WTF was I smoking?
/me pokes Nightdruid to flesh it out more
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Yeah, always wanted to flesh that area out too, but didn't know where to begin, probably some crazed, mega-powerful Druid guarding the lake down at the bottom of that thing.
/me pokes Nightdruid to flesh it out more
Me and Kam wanted to flesh out the place too. By using...surprise surpsise Nyt, the stuff in ToO about Teluri and Damites.
But I haven't heard of Kam in a while...
/me pokes Kamelion to talk more
Originally posted by Pennarin
Me and Kam wanted to flesh out the place too. By using...surprise surpsise Nyt, the stuff in ToO about Teluri and Damites.
Which book are those from?
Its all in good taste, DS-wise.
Its just that the Teluri were the first practionners of magic, a Green Age domain founded by the first students of the science. The Damites were a nation of warriors living in the Dragon's Bowl. They left ruins in the Bowl (1E Box says there's legends of a city under the waters of the lake) and now a powerful mul druid guards the entire region.
I had a couple of surprises in mind for anyone that would venture there.
Originally posted by Pennarin
Errr...the one where Sorak finds himself in an underground cavern with a lake, a bridge and fortress. He encounters a ghost that tells him the story of the Teluri, Damites and the Holy Sisters of the Order of the Willing Key (the "villichi").
Um, no, that was one of the more evil parts of the book.
Next please. :D
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Yeah, always wanted to flesh that area out too, but didn't know where to begin, probably some crazed, mega-powerful Druid guarding the lake down at the bottom of that thing.
/me pokes Nightdruid to flesh it out more
:D Heh, have I developed a reputation? Cool! I'm fast becoming popular in 2(!) settings
Anyways, what do you want me to work on, the Dragon Bowl, the demiplane, Ebe, or what? Not unwilling to give it a shot, just want to be clear what people want
Originally posted by Nightdruid
:D Heh, have I developed a reputation? Cool! I'm fast becoming popular in 2(!) settings
Well, there was that great article you wrote linking SJ and DS together. :D
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Um, no, that was one of the more evil parts of the book.
Next please. :D
No, really, what I liked was the small window into the Green Age politics and the names. The only thing dreadful about it was the Villichi and the Holy Sisters. Bhlea.
You have to see the window it opens to the past with the same critical eye that accepts such things as the Great Pantheon at Godshold, or that Giustenal story/net-project I sent you.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Well, there was that great article you wrote linking SJ and DS together. :D
that silly thing? T'was just a hack article, really ;)
Anyho, what is in particular you want me to take a shot at? Ebe, dragon bowl, the demiplane? Btw, where is Ebe detailed, anyways? I cannot find a reference to it.
Originally posted by Pennarin
No, really, what I liked was the small window into the Green Age politics and the names. The only thing dreadful about it was the Villichi and the Holy Sisters. Bhlea.
You have to see the window it opens to the past with the same critical eye that accepts such things as the Great Pantheon at Godshold, or that Giustenal story/net-project I sent you.
Let me rephrase, I liked everything about the cavern and such, and the ruins, just not the evil, sucky, villichi back story.
I still want a deranged druid, thri-kreen or no, protecting the lake down there.
He/she would have to be, not like a lot of travellers get down there since aerial travel is sort of rare on Athas.
-Wind's Fury
The great cities of Ebe, Waverly, and Arala are swallowed by the expanding Silt Sea, though later it recedes from Waverly. The nearby city of Bodach is spared, but becomes surrounded by silt.
This would also seem to suggest that Ebe is "nearby" Bodach.
What about Neth, the demiplane that lives? Its a living demiplane that spawns nethlings, weird creatures designed to expand its knowledge. Kinds sounds up the alley of the lifemasters. Maybe that is one of their inventions?
...just nit-picking.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
You mean Nature-Masters right? Nature-Masters and Nature-Benders were both Life-Shapers. But there's no "Lifemasters" :P
...just nit-picking.
My appologies...my mind isn't in the right place right now, but yes, nature masters. Must be having flashbacks to the halfling fleet episode...;)
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
You mean Nature-Masters right? Nature-Masters and Nature-Benders were both Life-Shapers. But there's no "Lifemasters" :P
Lifemasters were a throwback to what-was-his-name, Waroverlord?
Fun-filled threads, all of them... :D
the whole plane that comprises the reality of athas is a god (a halfling god). a cross between the Master Element and a halfling goddess. all the inhabitants of the reality are part of the god. sort of his psionic creation/dream.
the ages blue, green, SK, etc. correspond to different times in the life of the new god.
blue age--- the god was enutero, hence all the water and comfortable lives of the halflings.
the brown tide---- the birth of the god. nothing could be done to stop it so the best life shapers, who knew the link between athas and the god, made/grew the pristine tower to help with the birthing process (the tower is a direct link to the god). the god was born, and the other gods had input into the reality as the youngling god was introduced to the other gods the introducing of "mutations" from the pristine tower started. humans from the human god/s; elves from the elvish god/s; you see where i'm going with this. :-)
the green age---- the awakening of the new god to his potential. psionics mainly. the god is psionics.
the age of magic ----- rajaat, using some incredible epic psionic powers starts magic. but even he doesnt know where magic is drawn from. it comes from the god, but is channeled thru nature. so begins the sickness of the god. he starts "dying".
the age of the sorcerer kings----- rajaat uses the pristine tower to make the sorcerer kings. what he doesnt know is that he has to draw from the god to do it. the psionic/magic spell is so powerful that it rips most of the life (divine ranks, in the form of elemental vorticies) from the god and transfers them to the SKs (they each get a divine rank of 0 because no mortal can hold pure divine essence [a divine rank higher than 0]). of course this weakened the god ALOT ("killed" him and raised him as "undead") and still being a child, as far as gods go, withdrew into himself creating the hollow which also changed the structure of the planes, mixing the ethereal and astral into the grey veil and creating the black from pure pain and the darkness that his soul felt. prior to this ahtas was hooked up to the "normal" d&d cosmology. now it is the fevered nightmare of the godling who is really no longer a godling he is now just a hollow. :-( as he dreams, his fiendish nightmare spawns new species that spring from the pristine tower. the more defiling is used the further he is driven into madness and undeath.
after this cutting off from the rest of the planes happened those outsiders who were here were stuck. i still use baatzu and tanari, but even they have been twisted over time. i usually add the dire or blacktouched or greytouched templates to them when i have to use them. same with angels BUT without the connection to their plane they have mutated also (i use the same templates as for fiends) there are a RARE few good ones left (about as rare as the pyreen).
anyway, i always enjoyed rajaat being stuck in the hollow. so close to the key (he is actually in the godling) but totally clueless. :-)
thats my cosmology. :-)
what do you think? :-)
It's an interesting take, and if it works for your campaign, use it. I think I might not use that version in the book, though. God as an idea or a driving force works, but Athas is really unique mainly because of its lack of divine interference: if the Athasians screw things up, there's no greater diety to step in and say, "Now, now. Look, just look, what you little fellers have done! Let me wave my magic God-wand..." Poof!
No - Athas is literally throwing huge boulders at glass houses and seeing what happens.
Originally posted by rexaroo
the way i set the planes up in my campaign is:
the whole plane that comprises the reality of athas is a god (a halfling god). a cross between the Master Element and a halfling goddess. all the inhabitants of the reality are part of the god. sort of his psionic creation/dream.
thats my cosmology. :-)
what do you think? :-)
I like that, the idea of living in / on a god is good. This would work very good I guess. So poetic, epic..
But I rather change it bit, it needed not to be a god, just a superior life form. That way we would still have a godless athas and keep your very criative cosmology.!!! As you said this would be a "halfling god" (wich means that it musn't be a real god, just that they see it as one). This would no be the first thing to be seen as a god on Athas (all the raigs there once believed in some ancient entity they believe were a god.)
Originally posted by Fabrício Madruga Lopes
I like that, the idea of living in / on a god is good. This would work very good I guess. So poetic, epic..
But I rather change it bit, it needed not to be a god just a superior life form. That way we would still have a godless athas and keep your very criative cosmology.!!!
Let me introduce you to my idea of the once powerfull Rhulisti's thechnologie. The essence of life:Mindë
, As you said this would be a "halfling god" (wich means that it musn't be a real god, just that they see it as one). This would no be the first thing to be seen as a god on Athas (all the raigs there once believed in some ancient entity they believe were a god.)
Mindë is not a god but the very DNA of Athas. The Halfling of the Blue Age had found the way to manipulate and create from that essence.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
My vote's for existing in the multiverse, but (mostly) cut off.
I can accept that.
Now just need to make it damn near impossible to get out, other than going to the Demiplane of Dread, which I'm definately tying to the Black and allowing the Hollow to have some impact on it as well, but this is the only thing outside of the Hollow that Rajaat can affect.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
I'd say even getting to Ravenloft would be difficult. Think about it: what happens on Athas that isn't evil. It would have to be fairly spectacular....
Indeed.
Just saying, more probable that you have a better chance getting stuck in RL then actually leaving the Gray and getting into the outter planes and such.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Indeed.
Just saying, more probable that you have a better chance getting stuck in RL then actually leaving the Gray and getting into the outter planes and such.
If so, why Rajaat and so many others where never dragged to RL???
Originally posted by Fabrício Madruga Lopes
If so, why Rajaat and so many others where never dragged to RL???
1. The Dark Powers aren't stupid. They drag people of comperable power into their realms to become Darklords. Rajaat's power is closer to the combined power of all the Darklords, squared - at the very least. Such a being would most likely go, find the dark powers, and beat them like red-headed stepchildren, then take over the realm himself. The Sorcerer-Kings are also likely too dangerous to attempt to take control of as well.
2. The Dark Powers have their own plans - they don't take every evil being from their respective planes and bring them to Ravenloft. Only those that they hand-pick, and have the qualities that the Dark Powers desire for their dread realm and their ultimate purpose or goal.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
1. The Dark Powers aren't stupid. They drag people of comperable power into their realms to become Darklords. Rajaat's power is closer to the combined power of all the Darklords, squared - at the very least. Such a being would most likely go, find the dark powers, and beat them like red-headed stepchildren, then take over the realm himself. The Sorcerer-Kings are also likely too dangerous to attempt to take control of as well.
2. The Dark Powers have their own plans - they don't take every evil being from their respective planes and bring them to Ravenloft. Only those that they hand-pick, and have the qualities that the Dark Powers desire for their dread realm and their ultimate purpose or goal.
I recognize that you may be right xlorepdarkhelm, specially cause I don't know as much about DS as you do, and that may go for RL as well, but your theory has a flaw...
Nevertheless, Vecna, now a god, was dragged there... I guess, vecna is more powerfull than Rajaat or any other SK, or not?
This brings up another question: If Rajaat was so damn smart, how did the SKs pull the wool over his eyes and trap him (another thing: he can't be killed or you would assume they would have done so)? Maybe this is all part of a much longer-ranged plan of Rajaat's? Maybe he was just freakin' crazy? Who knows.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
I think it alludes to that he's plain crazy in the 2e materials. And while he's so damned powerful, he's not omniscient. His Champions had to probably move quick to catch him off-guard, possibly while he was in the middle of something else (like working towards allying with inner planes). I don't think he was realy expecting his Champions to revolt against him - sure, they were powerful, and he made them moreso. But - he probably thought that their minds were very plyable, and that he'd manipulated them into accomplishing their tasks - making them hate/resent the race they were sent against. He was overconfident in his control of them, and the very concept that they'd rebel against him and stop their wars - in unison, was something he didn't even consider in the realm of possiblity.
Some other thing that we forgot to mention... Maybe the evilness that draws anyone to the mists is relative, so Rajaat wasn't seen as Evil/Selfish... but lunatic, trying to save the wolrd from the other races and give it back to the halflings..Other guess is that Rajaat is such a pain in the *** that not even the dark powers wanted him around... As you said the dark powers have their own plains... and wouldn't want to change it due to Rajaat's interference.
And more, if Rajaat is so powerful... he would be able to just say "no" to the dark powers... and stay in Athas! Between a prisoner in Athas and a prisoner in the mists... he's chosen Athas.. I guess he would get homesick...
Originally posted by Fabrício Madruga Lopes
If so, why Rajaat and so many others where never dragged to RL???
I was actually considering to make Rajaat THE Dark Powers of RL, but that may be a little silly and too much.
I will have him be able to influence the Demiplan in some way though.
I'm a fan each of those settings but they have no place on Athas IMO.
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
Originally posted by Sysane
I honestly think that Ravenloft should be kept out of DS. It makes as much sense as Spelljammer or Planescape in DS.
I'm a fan each of those settings but they have no place on Athas IMO.
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
Actually, RL being linked with Athas makes alot more sense to me than SJ or Planescape does.
Dying world meet Demiplane of Dread.
Spelljammer, even if there are space halflings running around, are right out. Just assume the little fellers never broke the crystal sphere, just skimming around the sun every once in a while.
When I write this thing out, I'll include juicy bits about the outer planes and possibly the connection to Ravenloft, but I still think it would be cool if everything that's happening is going according to some masterplan by Rajaat. That would rule.
Originally posted by Sysane
I honestly think that Ravenloft should be kept out of DS. It makes as much sense as Spelljammer or Planescape in DS.
I'm a fan each of those settings but they have no place on Athas IMO.
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this one, m'kay? Ravenloft and Dark Sun almost mesh together perfectly. They are, in many ways, quite similar, and linking them together with Kalidnay makes for a very interesting idea. Keeping Kalidnay separate from the rest of Ravenloft, where after you get to Kalidnay, you actually have to figure out how to get to the rest of Ravenloft, that's also a fun thing to do. And I find it to be a great thing for players attempting to break out of Dark Sun, and end up trapped in Ravenloft (frying pan/fire kind of thing), and vice-versa.
If Kalidnay is kept seprate it may work. (shudders at the thought of a mul squaring off with Strahd).
Planescape very very loosely could work, but wouldn't suggest having your party walking down the streets of Sigil (did that in my campaign and regretted big time!).
Spelljammer on the other hand would be a big no-no (are you ready for your half giant waving a wheellock pistol around?).
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik.