For all you potential adventurers out there who have been through the original long ago, or not so long ago, you've got some punishment coming your way if your DM takes you back to this place!!! It is pretty sick!
DM's familiar with the original should be quite pleased with the updated material as well(if you play 3E that is). OD&D DM's should like the "more experienced" stats as well.
As for my campaign, after the place was sacked by a somewhat overconfident party of adventureres, some of whom croaked along the way, a single NPC built a citadel near the ruins to watch over a certain feature of the place and later possible insurgents from elsewhere...
Said citadel is about to be paid a visit from some rather upset former, current, and new residents of Maure Castle.
MoohoohoohoohahaHAAAAH!!!
Then I will be the first in line too view Carl's work!
It was a surprise and a pleasure when Erik Mona approaohed me with the proposal of adding a new level to my old module. I hope not to dissapoint
any of the fans of Greyhawk with the offering, either.
Though tastes differ, if you like hard tests of skill, thinking and courage then I feel that this will suit the bill.
I had tons of fun working with Dungeon on this and look forward to doing more installments if this one does well. Your later comments are appreciated.
Rob Kuntz
Rob's board
Thank you!
There is some discussion with DUNGEON about doing some Robilar related material as well. Right now I
am looking forward to the reaction of the subscribers to this send-up module. Real excited!
Rob
Originally posted by abysslin
Heh, Rob didn't even plug his forums...
Yeah, everyone go visit Rob's site and check out his views on 3rd edition D&D and 'modern' Greyhawk material. Very enlightening...
Also note that unlike many other pro pre-3e boards PPP maintains an open posting policy and a forum dedicated to 3e/d20 and one for Hackmaster/Kenzer (again Official 3e material). I have made a commitment to being open-minded about our industry.
Rob
I don't believe that 3e was the best vehicle for the D&D game.
I happen to agree, but I really can't believe that this is a controversial opinion for some. It is just a game, after all.
It's good to see you posting here, Rob. If you ever have time, you should visit the GreyChats on Thursday nights. Some of the 'hawkers were saying it'd be cool to chat with you or EGG sometime, but have doubts as to your tech/web savvy to operate an IRC client. ;)
-wn
Yes, we all do what we have to do in life. I have been doing this writng thing for a long time so it would be hard to find myself not doing it. Old habits die hard.
I hope to do more for DUNGEON and the prospects look very good for a sustained release of material.
As far as the IRC, I'm familiar enough with IRC, but just can't find a lot of time to chat online. Between my real day job, PPP, the various contracts I have to fulfill, I get about 5.5 hrs sleep a day as it is. I will keep it in mind for the future; but if any of the 'hawkers have any questions, they can sure drop by PPP's forums where I try to answer all questions.
Rob
Originally posted by ZayeneII
My views are known by many, Chatdemon.
Are they now?
Folks here know that you're trashing the folks on the Necromancer Games forum for DARING to not swoon over this article?
Folks here know that you and your forum users have, FOR YEARS, trashed the work of Erik Mona and the others responsible for keeping Greyhawk in print so that there is even a venue for this article?
Folks here know that you tolerate personal attacks on the professionals and fans who develop greyhawk both for wotc/paizo and for other fan sites on your forum, and then censor us when we respond to the attacks?
I guess it IS obvious to folks here that the only reason you're blessing us with your presence is to pimp your work, since you've been absent from the Greyhawk community beyond your own forum for years. Hey, thanks for helping keep the setting alive!
No Mr. Kuntz, MY views are known by many here. Most of the folks here probably disagree with me half the time (or more) and think I'm a blowhard, BUT I work hard to keep the community growing, and I show up here and participate when I can.
You hide away in a remote little corner of the community and then expect everyone, including those whose work you've criticized for so long to start brownnosing just because you have a new article.
Say what you will about me, but consider this, I never sold out and wrote for a system and setting I hate just to get paid. I support Greyhawk and the GH fan community because I love the setting, not some dream of what it could have been 20 years ago.
Say what you will about me, but consider this, I never sold out and wrote for a system and setting I hate just to get paid.
That is the luxuary of not being a professional Rich.
Originally posted by cwslyclgh
That is the luxuary of not being a professional Rich.
The luxury of not writing for a living, rather.
I see very little professionalism here or in the past with all the two faced commentary from Mr. Kuntz.
All I'd like to see here is a little more honesty.
No Mr. Kuntz, MY views are known by many here. Most of the folks here probably disagree with me half the time (or more) and think I'm a blowhard, BUT I work hard to keep the community growing, and I show up here and participate when I can.
*squints*
Delglath, is that you?
Seriously, though. The man has earned the right to say what he will about a setting that he helped create, Erik Mona would have been well with his (WOTC's) rights to modify Maure Castle without Rob or Gary's input. I think it shows a lot of class on his part to bring the olive branch and get their input for our benefit. I am not quite sure why there's so much nostalgia involved with 1st ed, but I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder. (Not that 3ed. doesn't have warts.)
However, as soon as Mr Kuntz signed that contract and agreed to write a 3rd edition D&D article about modern Greyhawk any honest and genuine "right" to continue bashing both of those things went out the window.
Rob obviously thinks Greyhawk fans are a bunch of rubes who will buy anything he or Gygax sign their name to regardless of whatever spiteful commentary they spew about us. The fact that so few of us even bat an eyelash at his attitude leads me to believe he may be right.
Rob obviously thinks Greyhawk fans are a bunch of rubes who will buy anything he or Gygax sign their name to regardless of whatever spiteful commentary they spew about us. The fact that so few of us even bat an eyelash at his attitude leads me to believe he may be right.
it is not thier names... at least no for me... it is the quality of the work... I can (and have) refused to buy products with both Gygax and Kuntz's names on them, because after looking through them I was dissapointed by the quality... other times I am quite happy with thier work, and eagrly buy it whether it has anything to do with GH or not. If they are doing decent quality modern greyhawk work, I am happy to have it no matter what they say or think about the current state of the setting... as long as those thoughts or words do not influence the quality of thier work.
We all post to this and other Greyhawk forums because we all share a love for the setting. What the hell is the point of bringing system discussions into it at all?
Gary and Rob aren't obligated to adore the latest edition of D&D. Heck, in 25 years I'll probably think 3rd edition is a lot better than whatever version whomever owns D&D is peddling.
Rob has always been supportive of my efforts, and given that the first caretakers of Greyhawk were so ruthlessly screwed by TSR back in the day, a little bitterness about the setting's current situation is understandable.
But both Gary and Rob were true professionals in their approach to "Maure Castle." It was a pleasure to work with them, and something I'd happily repeat.
Maure Castle, in Dungeon #112, is a big adventure. It doesn't really have much of anything to do with continuity at all, and those elements that do expand the "canon" of the setting were included with Gary and Rob's approval and consent. Hence, it's my hope that they can meet with nearly universal approval among Greyhawk fans.
I'm obviously a little biased, here, but I think "Maure Castle" is something that can be embraced by all aspects of Greyhawk fandom.
For too long Greyhawk fans have focused on what divides us rather than what unites us. I see no reason to continue pointing fingers and casting aspersions at each other, especially over something so irrelevant as what fake rules people use to model the fake world of Greyhawk.
Hope people enjoy the issue. It was really fun to put together.
--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dungeon
Originally posted by chatdemon
However, as soon as Mr Kuntz signed that contract and agreed to write a 3rd edition D&D article about modern Greyhawk any honest and genuine "right" to continue bashing both of those things went out the window. [/b]
What a crock of BS, being a pro is about seperating your personal opinions from your ability to do a job.
He earns a living writing gaming product to as high a standard as he can if he likes the product/setting/game on a personal level or not. That's a professional attitude.
I couldn't care what his attitude to 3e or anything else is provided it's a good product and dragging personal issues into disparaging a mans work is pretty crass and certainly unprofessional on your part.
Originally posted by Erik Mona
Rob has always been supportive of my efforts, and given that the first caretakers of Greyhawk were so ruthlessly screwed by TSR back in the day, a little bitterness about the setting's current situation is understandable.
Oh for the love of god Erik, has honesty vacated your vicinity as well?
You are going to tell me with a straight face that you have never seen Rob or Gary make disparaging comments about the work You, Roger, Carl, Gary, Fred, Sean and others have done???
I guess maybe I have to be part of the little industry old boys club to understand what's going on here, because all I see is a crock of lies in an attempt to sell a product, on everyone involved's part.
I don't have to be professional. Im not a pro. Im just some fool who spent the last 3 years busting his hump working on a fan site for greyhawk fans.
My work speaks for itself, I really don't care what anyone here thinks of me for speaking my mind.
Greyhawk after Gary and Rob really, really sucked. That's an almost universal opinion. It wasn't until Sargent came along that things got back on track.
I seem to remember someone saying that Gygax said he didn't like Carl Sargent's writing style. That's hardly a unique opinion among Greyhawk fans of all stripe (although not one I agree with). Are Gary and Rob obligated to be more deferential to the work of those who came after them simply because they are Gary and Rob?
I suspect Gary and Rob have not spent a great deal of time combing through the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer or the various Greyhawk articles I've edited in Dungeon and Dragon.
And I, for one, don't care.
What Gary and Rob think of the game system or even of the Greyhawk development that came after their original contributions is not of primary interest to me. Indeed, I'm thrilled that there appear to be aspects of the setting in which they and I can cooperate. Insofar as Maure Castle is concerned, they were both very, very supportive, and the end result is one kick-butt adventure.
That's all that matters to me. That Maure Castle captures the spirit of a 30-year old adventure, and that it does so in a way that can be enjoyed by all Greyhawk fans, regardless of which vision of the setting they prefer. (And, honestly, regardless of which game system they use.)
In a fandom that can embrace elven longrifles, massive plagues, and any number of divergant ideas, why do people get so hung up about any differences at all? Why not focus on the things that draw all of us to Greyhawk, and not worry about what divides us?
That's a serious question, Rich, and I'd be interested in a serious answer.
--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dungeon
Once again, I point out, I have made no comments regarding the quality of the Maure Castle Dungeon issue. I haven't seen it yet.
The point is, you have a fairly well know Greyhawk celebrity fostering and encouraging an attitude that all post 1988 greyhawk work sucks and that the fans that like it are morons. You have a Greyhawk celebrity, who unlike Gygax (who at least has the minimal respect for fans of the setting to join us on Greytalk now and then to ponder the setting), has not been a visible part of the community for years.
People like that, people who give blowhards like Gene Weigel and Scott Gob ammunition for their inane attacks on LG and resources like Canonfire, are the root of the problem in the community.
Rob needs to say one of two things:
1) New Greyhawk isn't so bad, Erik and I found some common ground and made the best of it.
or
2) New Greyhawk sucks, I hated having to conform to it in my writing, but hey, "I gots to get paid!"
One of those is the case, which is it Rob?
People like Erik, Gary Holian, myself, LG volunteers and others who work on the setting whether or not we're getting paid or making friends (for those who may not know, Erik was the editor and a driving force behind Oerth Journal ezine, for free, before his time as a WotC employee, and Gary Holian pays for the costs related to running Canonfire out of his own pocket.) are what is right about the community, and we deserve a little honesty and respect from the people whose paychecks we are funding with our purchases. Rob is showing none of that.
1) New Greyhawk isn't so bad, Erik and I found some common ground and made the best of it.
>>>
Isn't Rob's participation in the project the same thing as him saying this?
I'm confused about what exactly you want Rob to do, and why he should feel obligated to do it.
--Erik
Do not get me wrong. I do not favor the FTA changes and feel that Greyhawk should have had its history left untampered with.
There was always mystery and newness in the air, and Gary did well in keeping everything mysterious and exciting. There's an earthiness to it which the uninspired might interpret as unpolished, so I've seen time and again. But they stray far from the mark.
It's that simple. He's obviously not so opposed to modern Greyhawk that he couldn't accept pay for his work, so he needs to quit sucking up to his fan boys and claiming that he is.
1 )Besides helping to craft the setting through DMing it I contributed product for it in OAD&D, !e, 2E, 3e, D20 and generic forms.
2) For years I religiously petitioned TSR and Wotc to bring back the setting, even going so far as to start a letter writng drive on Greytalk-L and sending Peter Adkinson a Marketing Plan for Greyhawk. In that plan I favored pre-FTA as there was more material extent between old authors than there was for the new FTA.
3) I posted for years on Greytalk-L, answering every question I could and spending much time encouraging the fandom there; and even coerced Gary to join, finally.
4) I submitted articles to Oerth Journal when Erik was editor, before he moved to WotC and Polyhedron.
5) I championed the Castle Greyhawk project with Erik Mona and talked with him at a Gencon about it; and about Stoink. In between I sent him two articles for LGJ, one which one dealt with Maure Castle, in particular.
6) I have related some adventures from Gryehawk for UP On A Soapbox in DRAGON.
7) I have contributed several articles to Canonfire as well for fans to read.
I could go on and on about my participation to satisfy the curious, but what is the true point here, anyway? That I should be made to answer for my opinion that I like pre-FTA Greyhawk? Tomaetoes-Tomahtoes.
The whole object of this thread previous to its derailing was to enjoy and discuss a work which is now published for fans to enjoy. I will no longer participate in any other discussion other than that. If Chatdemon still wishes to maintain his postures and opinions I wish him no ill will. I just don't have the time for this nonsense nor the inclination.
I do wish to discuss the project, however, pro or con, and actually look forward to doing more for DUNGEON which I have a great relationship with.
And thanks, Erik, for clearing the air a bit. Sure was appreciated!
Rob Kuntz
WE really don't care if they make it for money, for pleasure or whatever.
We only care if they write good and interesting GREYHAWK products.
ANd MAure castle is one.
I even suscribed for dungeon (cause of the future greyhawk maps also, ok) for 1 year and i hope i won't be deceived.
And that's a good point. For me and for the GReyhawk community.
So thank you Erik, Rob, Thank Canonfire, and all the people who make this world alive and still creative.
Strange comparaison but sometimes Greyhawk vs FR and WOTC make me thinks about Linux and Windows/microsoft. The first is the best, the more intersting an productive, it's open(source) and everybody is working for free on it. OK Windows takes 90% of the market... but people who taste to Linux never come back to windows.
That's when I got my first subscription to Dungeon.
Took me years.
I know you care passionately about it.
I know you feel a transgression has been made that needs to be atoned for.
We all get it.
We don't agree.
When EM comes on himself and says basically "Rob never dissed me, I'd be bitter if I were him, we're working together now", that should be good enough.
You look bad when you don't let it go.
You look jealous because Rob's getting published, while your work is on a fancite.
You make Canonfire look like its run by a wild-eyed, barbarian.
You are not that.
Do what you do. Do it well, Let this go.
Please.
(By the way, the Delgath comment, hilarious)
Moreover, I think Erik's comments illustrate why he was chosen as the new editor of Dungeon. He has the ability to communicate his vision of Greyhawk all the while showing his respect for those who have written successfully for the setting in the past. Without his efforts, we wouldn't have seen this great reworking of an old classic. That much is apparent.
This is a time for celebration, folks, not endless nitpicking. Franlky, I don't care who feels bitter and who is being consistent in his views of Greyhawk or 3e. Let's all take a step back, take a deep breath, and move on.
I'm thrilled to be able to return to Maure Castle. I think it's great that we still have Rob Kuntz in the community and working on the Greyhawk setting. Kudos to all involved in this project.
Thanks, Rob. Thanks, Erik.
You're welcome and I hope to produce more in the near future. Now if I can only get my copies of Dungeon... Hey Erik! : )
Rob
That I should be made to answer for my opinion that I like pre-FTA Greyhawk? Tomaetoes-Tomahtoes.
No, you don't have to answer for having that opinion.
You don't have to answer for anything you don't want to.
But neither does anyone else by that standard. So if someone feels like pointing out that your positions on game system and era have, at times, taken on a rather disparaging tone of the efforts of those who have done work on Greyhawk in other systems and editions, then perhaps you should not ask them to answer for those opinions either.
And your tone has been disparaging. And you have been dismissive of others who have worked on GH. And, though you are certainly even less answerable for the opinions of others, people who participate in your message boards have gone even further.
When you say things like the D20 system is not the proper vehicle, or that GH should revert to pre-FtA, you are disparaging those who work with that system, and dismissing all of the work that has been done for GH since that time.
You may not mean them to be negative, but consider you reactions to similar statements. Just as you dislike certain blanket dismissals of the work of earlier eras as lacking in detail or the like, your blanket statements about the work of others in this era is not taken as friendly commentary, or as constructive criticism.
So how about a word or two of support for this current era of GH, the system behind it, and the people who used that system to drive the setting?
It may not be your preference for either, but a whole lot of people put a whole lot of effort into it. And because of that, a whole lot more people have become interested enough in the setting to care about this new article of yours.
And who knows, it might just get both the fans of the old and the fans of the new agreeing on something long enough for even more GH material to appear in print.
I was once a nay-sayer on the 3E revisions. I didn't think there was anything wrong with 1E or 2E and I chastized anyone who upgraded to the "evil" new 3E. However, I am now on board and the game is as enjoyable as ever. I've changed my opinion. Should I be flamed because I embraced the new? Do I need to appologize to each and every 3E gamer who I ever disparaged?And would I play 1E again? Hell yes. I love it too.
Mr. Kuntz, welcome back to the forefront of Greyhawk. Thanks for your contribution. Eric, keep up the great work at Dungeon. And to anyone else who has, is, or will publish anything related to Greyhawk, thank you.
Secondly, and most importantly (to me at least) is that Greyhawk is getting the recognition it truly deserves. Not just by the Greyhawk Elite either. There are casual GH fans and fans of other gameworlds talking about this issue of Dungeon. That ‘buzz’ is important. It is so refreshing so hear others (by that I mean not hard core Greyhawkers) talk about the setting without using the words… “low-magic” and “outdated”. Thank you Mr. Kuntz and Mr. Mona. You did this.
Lastly, I am a fan of old Metallica… but I guess that’s not quite the same thing.
Yes, it sucks when a sourcebook comes out with a time-line that doesn't match that of your campaingn or sets up events that don't fit well. Its called doing a bit of work. If you are a decent DM, you've been doing this all along anyways. Take what you can use from it and move on. Nobbody can screw up your campaign but you. The only reason I see anybody complaining about something is that it doesn't fit the tone of their campaign(like the goofy version of Greyahwak Castle) or it requires that they get off their lazy butt and make it fit into their campaign by doing a bit of work modifying it here and there. The Greyhawk Wars are a good example. Great idea, but some of the events are certainly not going to make it into my campaign in any lasting way.
I din't find Rob's remarks quoted by chatdemon as all too acidic- they seemed rather off the cuff and very diplomatic in their way. There is a difference between Rob's comments and him comparing other authors' Greyhawk work in an utterly brutal fashion to the various contents of a cesspool, to put it nicely. Forum responses notably are lacking in one thing- tone of voice. Sarcasm, humor, anger, and even indifference. They just don't always translate very well, so I usually take the positive view of anybody's comments, as that is what is usually intended by most people.
That being said, without knowing Rob personally or having met him at conventions or otherwise, I am recommending, nay,
pimping Dungeon #112 and its contents( Maure Caste) to all Greyhawk fans. If you like the original, you'll love the return!!! I work at ahobbby store and see lots of new material come in every month. Many of the people who shop there trust my judgement in recommending things to them based on what I know about their campaigns, and so I continuously scan the effluent of 3E material for those choice nugggets I can scoop out and present to them for their perusal(is that enough potty humor for you all???:D).
To Erik, Rob, and Gary: is there anything else in the works???
The map sounds good. While not the most neccessary thing, I look forward to some new maps to add to my others. Rob mentioned Stoink, which seems a very interesting place to run around in. For me and my players(who have yet to visit the city of Stoink) it almost has the same mystique as Mos Eisley space port. A place ffilled with the scum or Oerik. In homage, a campaign I played in featured a fast clipper ship on the Nyr Dyv named the Falcon and featured a rogue-ish captain with a bugbear 1st mate in tow. And no, the 1st mate's name wasn't Chewy, but the ship was faster than she looked(of course).
Thanks for the posts.
---Brian
Originally posted by Samwise
No, you don't have to answer for having that opinion.
You don't have to answer for anything you don't want to.
But neither does anyone else by that standard. So if someone feels like pointing out that your positions on game system and era have, at times, taken on a rather disparaging tone of the efforts of those who have done work on Greyhawk in other systems and editions, then perhaps you should not ask them to answer for those opinions either.
I have not disapraged anyone who worked on post-Gygax Greyhawk. Merely stating that I prefer pre-FTA Greyhawk is by itself merely an opinion. If you visit my boards you will find that I am more concerned with the proliferation of too much d20 product rather than what direction a game world is heading which I have no control over any longer.
[/b]
And your tone has been disparaging. [/b]
How so?
And you have been dismissive of others who have worked on GH.
No way. I was supportive enough of all past efforts, such as those of Erik Mona's when he was in the Polyhedron, even. I've never once made any statements about Carl Sargent. I never met him and am familiar only with Ivid the Undying, wherein he used my Knights of Chaos monster.I never participated in LG, not my cup o' tea.
And, though you are certainly even less answerable for the opinions of others, people who participate in your message boards have gone even further.
[/b]
When you say things like the D20 system is not the proper vehicle... [/b]
Inccorect. I said that 3e was not the "best" vehicle, but a vehicle none-the-less. Again, an opinion which I have which is a comparitive one based upon my 30+ years of gaming and game theory, not just a throw-off supportive comment, btw. : )
or that GH should revert to pre-FTA...
Never said that either. I said that I favored pre-FTA and assumed that any change to that would never happen in my lifetime. Nor probably in anyone's lifetime. I have dealt with the fact that Greyhawk has changed to such a degree that there are no changes any longer, only further permutations and additions. That I can lend my voice to that is a good thing.
you are disparaging those who work with that system, and dismissing all of the work that has been done for GH since that time.
Nope. By my statements above you will probably note why I don't believe that I've disapraged anyone. I give due to all those that work on Grehawk and have even gone as far as to stae that on my board. That I have taken flak from all quarters for attempting to be a middle of the road mediator. I even discourage rabid commentary where it descends to disparagment voiced out of emotional opinion. I am of the theory of getting along and letting things rest. However, I do admit that there is still a tiny bit of bitterness remaining. I'm human, you know. But it's nothing I haven't been able to work past and through. Roght Erik?
You may not mean them to be negative, but consider you reactions to similar statements. Just as you dislike certain blanket dismissals of the work of earlier eras as lacking in detail or the like, your blanket statements about the work of others in this era is not taken as friendly commentary, or as constructive criticism.
The only peoiple that I have truly criticized are reviewers who do bad jobs (mediocre jobs) of reviewing products, especially when they have biased views. I have taken no one to the carpet, and if I were to do so it would be via an email, not on a public board. Unless I was attacked first, then I might.
So how about a word or two of support for this current era of GH, the system behind it, and the people who used that system to drive the setting?
I support it whole-heartedly! As I support my era f gaming as well. I work more effectively with 1e and such comparable systems, such as the one Gary and I will be using to craft Zagyg's Castle by Troll Lord Games. Read my interview on EN World (archived). I believe the greaest threat to this new movement is mediocrity of product. I have noted those companies who produced good stuff (Fantasy Flight Games, Atlas, etc.). If WotC were more supportive of the Greyhawk line, I would drop lots of monety for their products as well!
It may not be your preference for either, but a whole lot of people put a whole lot of effort into it. [/b]
People love this market, for sure. I have nothing but respect for those who endeavor in this industry. But I still reserve my opinions. I am a very opinionated guy, but not a negative-minded soul. I am of the "convince me" school and do love a good developmental argument to find the basis for growth and understanding, not just for argument's sake.
I am trying to find a common round here, of course, and I have been attmpting to do for years, but I will not abbandon my roots and past along the way, either. There's too much love and memories for that to happen. But I feel that the future might hold some good things for d20. and _especially_ the OGL. New things showing up every day. Make mine Greyhawk, however. I still want to write a Robilar Novel. He was my character for so many years and I hope that WotC will agree to let me do one some day (hey, want a synopsis??). That's on my writing wish list. : )
Rob
<>
Cheers!
Rob
Originally posted by ZayeneII
I am trying to find a common round here, of course, and I have been attmpting to do for years, but I will not abbandon my roots and past along the way, either. There's too much love and memories for that to happen. But I feel that the future might hold some good things for d20. and _especially_ the OGL. New things showing up every day. Make mine Greyhawk, however. I still want to write a Robilar Novel. He was my character for so many years and I hope that WotC will agree to let me do one some day (hey, want a synopsis??). That's on my writing wish list. : )
Rob[/b]
Straightforward and sincere words, Rob. It's great to see your recent Greyhawk efforts coming to fruition. I will be among the many in line when it hits the newsstand. Speaking of which...
*runs off to buy his copy of maure Castle*
Originally posted by barney barnsquabble
I will be among the many in line when it hits the newsstand. Speaking of which... *runs off to buy his copy of maure Castle*
My subscription copy has not shown up, yet. Is it on the shelves already? If is available at the store now, I'll go get one. I can't wait any longer to get mine in the mailbox!
I surf the same boards as the rest of you, Chatdemon, Samwise, and I think you're both way off the mark, so let's give it a rest, shall we?
Instead of bickering, let's enjoy a special moment in Greyhawk's development without our other motives creeeping into this thread. It is, after all, about Dungeon 112, not message-board back-stabbing.
I appreciate anyone's opinion but I think we can be a bit more civil regardless of past issue's that may of come up. Rich I know your a greyhawk community supporter and I appreciate all of the hard work you and the other editorial staff members have put into Cannonfire. I just think your comparing apples and oranges and it really isn't necessary.
I enjoyed Dark Druids but myself don't enjoy the 3E D&D game. When I first started playing this game is was about checks and balance's as well as it being enjoyable for those that played it. One of the most memorable lines I've seen in the print is that the world wasn't just the author's that built it but it was for all of us to enjoy it as we seen fit. So if your telling me that the above post was the most disparaging thing Rob has posted then what is so harsh about that.
It is his opinion he like everyone else in here is entiled to one. I've been checking out issues of Dungeon and coverting it back to 2E and scaling things that I like from the magazines contents into something I prefer. Castle Maure most likly will be picked apart by me as well. But I still thinks it's nice too have something new From Gygax and Kuntz again.
Chat, I think Erik is right instead of focusing on what separates us let us focus on what unites us. I don't play LGG but have found some of the work well done while other areas have left me disapointed by their outcome. Much like some of Gygax's and Kuntz work as well their was some I liked and others I could care less about. So I know that most of this animosity is from being flamed at an unmentioned site and seeing no course of action from authors who could of helped defuse the situation.
Take the high road Chat it's better up there!
Originally posted by Argon
I think Erik is right instead of focusing on what separates us let us focus on what unites us.
Originally posted by sedrorovin murghurobag
Instead of bickering, let's enjoy a special moment in Greyhawk's development without our other motives creeeping into this thread. It is, after all, about Dungeon 112 ...
Amen to the the sentiments quoted above. I am surprised and disappointed at the volley of attacks on Kuntz. It is really embarrassing. I don't know Kuntz; I don't know what he's done in the past; or to whom; and I don't care.
I do care about the Greyhawk campaign setting. The contemporary treatment of Castle Maure in Dungeon #112 is exciting, I think. After considering the recent excellent work on Warduke, Evard and Hardby, I trust Mona and the people at Dungeon (Strohm, too) and appreciate their work - no matter where they get it. It has been great product, I think. Keep it up.
War Greyhawk!
Originally posted by sedrorovin murghurobag
Enough of these demands for apologies and all the other collective nonsense that has been asked of Rob Kuntz.
I surf the same boards as the rest of you, Chatdemon, Samwise, and I think you're both way off the mark, so let's give it a rest, shall we?
Instead of bickering, let's enjoy a special moment in Greyhawk's development without our other motives creeeping into this thread. It is, after all, about Dungeon 112, not message-board back-stabbing.
I didn't demand anything.
I stated my views, and offered a suggestion.
And I am pleased that suggestion was taken.
I won't bother quibbling endlessly about semantics. Or be concerned that Rob has his preferences while I have mine.
I can claim 20+ years of playing and tinkering with games and systems myself, so I think I've got enough there to not have to be answerable for liking what I do either. And I'm a "very opinionated guy" as well, so I don't hold that against anyone either.
So now let's see if anyone else can join in this mutual support society. Even if all you can manage is "Well I prefer this way, but I'm real glad that other stuff is being published anyway.", chime in.
Just try it. You might even find yourself liking some material set in another era.
I find it extremely funny that Rob says "If Chatdemon still wishes to maintain his postures and opinions I wish him no ill will. I just don't have the time for this nonsense nor the inclination." over here, then runs back to his fan boys and starts a thread about what a (insert colorful term here) I am.
Yes, you're a saint among men Mr. Kuntz, forgive me for ever casting dispersion your way.
Try it from the other side. For once.
Let's all put down our flamethrowers, and get back to discussing Maure Castle.
E.N.
Originally posted by WizO_Drake
Guys, a few of the posts on this thread have been a bit heated, to say the least. Name-calling (i.e. "idiots") is a violation of the Code of Conduct.
Let's all put down our flamethrowers, and get back to discussing Maure Castle.
Beware, the dragon stirs. (j/k)
But seriously, I am excited about the Maure adventure although I am at a disadvantage because I will only get to read the adventure after we have been through it. My Greyhawk DM has forbidden any of us in the group to read it before he runs it. I will still buy the issue, though I will let him ‘hold’ it for safe-keeping.
Originally posted by Greyson
My subscription copy has not shown up, yet. Is it on the shelves already? If is available at the store now, I'll go get one. I can't wait any longer to get mine in the mailbox!
Greyson, over on ENWorld Erik has commented that Dungeon 112 is the last issue that should be suffering from the shipping woes that have plagues Paizo recently. Subscribers should receive their issues in the next two weeks or so IIRC (and I'm waiting right there with you....).
Woa! Going through it is like taking a trip in a time machine, only this is (almost) better than the original. Detailed maps, gorgeous illustrations, plenty of titbits of GH lore. To a “hawker”, this is like a dream come true.
The fact that it’s introduced by (the reprint of) an article of G. Gygax only makes it better. Got to love that pic of Mordenkainen facing the golem!
Best of all, v3.5 stats for all the original monsters + the long-awaited update of the Nabassu (coolest demon in my book)
And then you discover the new level and what’s beyond…
Despite what the naysayers may claim, this is the best issue Dungeon ever produced. Thank you Mr. Kuntz & Gygax for a superb job. Thank you Erik Mona for managing to pull this off.
Yes, folks who have no idea what GH and/or module WG5 are won’t probably be as happy about this issue as diehard GH fans. Yet, this stand-alone dungeon could easily be plugged in many other settings with little fuss. And given FR and Eberron still receive new official material, I don’t think their fans got any room to complain.
Now, if you’ll excuse me, I am going to buy a second copy, the first is going under seal this very minute!
Originally posted by Faraer
So when is Mordenkainen & co's original delving of the dungeon, 25 years before 'now', dated to in the Greyhawk calendar?
Most people set it around 569cy or earlier.
Halber
>>>
It was my pleasure all the way, Blomble! Acutally the correspondence between Erik and myself is worthy of saving too. "Yennoghu's Curse Letter," included. It was a blast all the way around.
>>>
I've saved all this stuff, and it's now part of the Dungeon archive. Maybe in 20 years Grodog can use it somehow. ;)
--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dungeon
>>>
The map sounds good. While not the most neccessary thing, I look forward to some new maps to add to my others.
>>>
Since the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer and D&D Gazetteer have now joined FtA, the original boxed set, and the folio in the realm of the out of print, I think a map is a very necessary thing to maintain the flow of new players with an interest in Greyhawk. So I sort of disagree with the specific comment, even though I understand the sentiment.
>>>
Rob mentioned Stoink, which seems a very interesting place to run around in. For me and my players(who have yet to visit the city of Stoink) it almost has the same mystique as Mos Eisley space port. A place ffilled with the scum or Oerik.
>>>
I went on a great Stoink snipe hunt about three years ago. Suffice it to say, if a Stoink manuscript exists (which I doubt, though at one time it certainly did), whoever has it isn't showing his hand.
I'd love to try to do something with it if that manuscript could be found--as, I'm sure, would Gary and Rob.
--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dungeon
So when is Mordenkainen & co's original delving of the dungeon, 25 years before 'now', dated to in the Greyhawk calendar?
>>>
On a whim (and because I think a CY 600 GH would be the ideal meeting point for most of the factions of Greyhawk fandom), I decided to stick with the RPGA's one year = one year approach, so "Maure Castle" is (loosely) set in CY 594. I say loosely because it's relatively easy to set the adventure in any era after Mordenkainen's 569 foray. In fact, that was one of the design goals.
--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dungeon
As I noted on DF, there is a detailed synopsis of the remaining levels in the addy; Erik was in fact "geeked" (pardon the expression) by these detailed tid-bits. Those of you who have the issue will note why, as I let loose creative stops to give a finely detailed setting, at least from the bone end. What flesh we actally place upon it will depend largely on the fan reaction to this issue, which is seemingly astounding so far, as Erik deemed it would be (Kudos, Erik, for such foresight!). Perhaps a bit too early to tell, but I believe there will be more to come, and I look forward to it, as there is a solid background to work with and a deserving audience.
And yes! The dungeon was designed for 'hawkers, and can be used by non-hawkers too, as the premise lends itself to some out of the way place which is politically, and easily, geographically, isolated as well. And as we all know, changing names works well in fitting such material into any campaign.
I look forward to further comments or questions (rubs hands).
Thanks for the great welcome and for the compliments. Without Erik's interest it would not have come to pass! : )
Rob Kuntz
He is a spirit of the "Demiplane of Knowledge Concerning the 666 Layers of the Abyss and the Layers of Carceri." Heh. Who knew demiplanes could be so focused! Or long-named! ;)
Regards,
Eric Anondson (Just got my subscribed issue this afternoon)
There was no preview of Dungeon #113. Care to give us one here? Any Greyhawk content in it?
Regards,
Eric Anondson
That said, today I received my subscription copy of Dungeon #112 and I'd like to say good job! The adventure is well written with tons of greyhawk informational tidbits, possible adventure hooks, cool villans, lots of new and interesting magic items, and it's just darn big!
Thanks Rob and thanks Eric! This will definitely be an adventure I will put to good use.
Originally posted by Erik Mona
Rob said:
>>>
It was my pleasure all the way, Blomble! Acutally the correspondence between Erik and myself is worthy of saving too. "Yennoghu's Curse Letter," included. It was a blast all the way around.
>>>
I've saved all this stuff, and it's now part of the Dungeon archive. Maybe in 20 years Grodog can use it somehow. ;)
LOL :D :D
Really, when something new (and of quality) is released for Greyhawk, even in a magazine ! , we can easily feel how much people are waiting and are excited.
Happy to read a thread about something that is existing instead of " what would you dream of? why did they stop/ where can i find he 1938 edited module/ whos is still alive in the orignal greyhawk players? etc etc.."
I would just like now to see new players to grow greyhawkers ranks, but i know it will hardly happen without WOTC officials products.
But maybe it's better they publish nothing than bad things...
ANyway "Maure Castle" is the first fruit of quality that is appearing for a long time ( in the "on sale accessories" categorie). Maybe it's just for spring, or maybe new ones will come.
I just come hope lot of players will buy it. And, by the way, may learn about the map release, and realize greyhawk is really alive!
I won't write "thank you" cause i wrote it to many times on this thread so Congratulations to all who drove this project.
Being an old time player (early eighties or so), I view this as a resurrection of sorts- considering the renown and revered names involved in this wonderful undertaking...
I know that the old time gamers I've kept in touch with over the years are spinning in anticipatory circles with the thought of Gygax's upincoming contribution.
Plus, I've been introducing new players to the fantastic world of D&D using the Greyhawk setting- and at times they seem even more excited than I am with the possibility of getting their hands on new Greyhawk material.
That sayd then...
'Greyhawk forever!'
Originally posted by Eric Anondson
There was no preview of Dungeon #113. Care to give us one here? Any Greyhawk content in it?
For everyone's information, paraphrased from Dragon 321:
Dungeon 113 has the last Polyhedron installment, involving starship templates for d20 Future. LGJ has a detailed history of the Knights of Holy Shielding. The adventures are a low level FR mod, a mid-level mod, part 8 of Cauldron and an intro Eberron adventure.
Originally posted by UnderToad
Here's a thought, Chat, why don't you get published, make a name for yourself, and then you can collect your own bitter detractors.
I don't use 3e. Like Rob, I don't like it as the newest incarnation of D&D.
Sure, a lot of the material I have submitted to Canonfire is written in 3e format. For a time I was tinkering with the system, and I also tried to present the material in a format that would be most useful to those who visited our site. However, I did not constantly trash 3e in the same breath. That's the difference here. I fully realize that a lot of people do like 3e, and do use it for Greyhawk, and in trying to make Canonfire a succesful site, I catered to them.
I have disagreements with Erik Mona over the vision of the setting.
Erik has, in passing, invited me to submit stuff to him for consideration. I fully realize that major concessions would have to be made on my part to fit my vision of Greyhawk with the one that gets published.
I chose not to make those concessions. My work is freely available to those who want to look at it and I more than welcome criticism.
Maure Castle looks excellent. The monsters from WG5 converted to 3.5 will be particularly useful to me.
I hope Erik can get Rob and Gary to contribute to Dungeon again. I'd be happy to see them do many more whole issue length adventures.
Originally posted by chatdemon
I don't use 3e. Like Rob, I don't like it as the newest incarnation of D&D.
Then what is the best incarnation of D&D?
I mean what do you find lacking in 3e?
My working with various rules systems is extensive, not only D&D and AD&D but many board games rules and miniatures rules. I used to play Napoleonic miniatures which required understanding nealy 200 pages of rules. I've seen, over 32 years of game design, play, playtesting and philosophical tinkering, hundreds of rules. I'm getting older now. Just hand me a one-pager and let's have fun. That's what it's boiled down to for me.
Erik Mona knows this for many years and that is why he and James Jacobs made the offer to convert my 1e/partial d20 stats as I presented them into 3.5. This was a great courtesy on their part, for which I'm grateful. To me--just me, this is just for me alone--I find it more difficult to write for 3e than for other similiar systems. This does not make 3e bad or worthy of bashing, but just a different set of rules. Again, the learning curve for this old fart is just too steep for me these days. Give me a page of rules and stick me in the corner and I'm fine. : )
Rob Kuntz
Originally posted by ZayeneII
... too much rules referencing in my games would slow that down considerably.
That is the only problem I struggle with regarding D&D v.3.0 and v.3.5. It is a cumbersome beast to learn, play and judge. But, I still love the v.3.5 rule set and enjoy seeing the changes in this awesome game. It is better than the D&D game drying up and disappearing.
But, back to Dungeon #112, I could wait no longer for mine to show up in the mail. So, I bought one yesterday at Game Den in Valley Fair Mall (West Valley City, Utah). And, of course, my subscription showed up today in the mail box. LOL!
It looks teriffic as I thumb through it. Thanks a lot to the staff and writers at Dungeon. Maure Castle looks great.
Originally posted by Ranger REG
Then what is the best incarnation of D&D?
I mean what do you find lacking in 3e?
I don't find anything in particular lacking per se. I just find the rules overly complex and too different from D&D's roots for my taste. I tinkered with 3e for over a year of weekly games to try and make it work for me, then just decided to give up and go back to the editions I do enjoy.
2e is just as complex as 3e, IMO, but it had enough "legacy" in it to make it worthwhile. I've now settled on using basic (et al) D&D for a quick, not overly serious game where we can enjoy telling a story, exploring the unknown and bashing monsters without getting bogged down in detail.
Originally posted by chatdemon
I've now settled on using basic (et al) D&D for a quick, not overly serious game where we can enjoy telling a story, exploring the unknown and bashing monsters without getting bogged down in detail.
You know, come to think of it I have felt kinda bogged down when I DM. Not necessarily by the d20 mechanics mind you(I still look up the rules to combat constantly however) but it's in the overabundance of sources for new abilities and feats and prestige classes and item creation and everything else that players will exploit. Sometimes when designing an adventure I am thinking more about the numbers and how they relate to the party's strength than the story itself.
However, as much as I enjoy the new system, I must agree with what Rob said about writing for it. The abundance of rules, the areas they cover, and the requirements for stat blocs for creatures, are so exacting and extensive as to make any writing task incredibly more difficult.
And I agree that noting all that detail is not playing the game. I certainly skip it all when I'm running, doing things off the top of my head and improvising as I go along. Of course I did the same with AD&D.
I also agree with mortellan about the overabundance of sources. That continues to make a difficult task even more difficult, and is why I regularly rant about not wanting to see new feats, spells, prestige classes, and items in a GH sourcebook. There are too many as it is, we don't need even more.
I'd like to begin discussing details but feel it's better not to post such immediately since so many folks will likely be running this adventure in the next month or so. Spoiler space is useful, but I don't want to ruin anyone's fun.
So for now, suffice to say I am hugely pleased to see a work of such obvious quality. I particularly am pleased by the many suggested plot hooks: with them DMs can keep bringing the players back for many a session.
"Stand by the innovators."
You guys rock!!
So of course over here in Holland I am still eagerly awaiting Dungeon 112. (It takes a long time to get Dragon and Dungeon here). I have high hopes for this isssue.
I don't really understand why it is more difficult to write for 3e. Does it really matter what system you use? The statistics etc. are just an add-on to the story aren't they?
Thanks all for the great adventure.
PS: Couldn't we all find a better thread to pick apart 3.5 ed?
As far as the complexity of 3E/3.5 over earlier editions, it depends on what you consider complex. Sure, there are some aspects of the game more complex (different spell DCs, tons of feats) and other that have been cleaned up in to a more elegant mechanic (BAB, AC, and Saves). I think it all balances in the wash. I will say that the stat blocks of critters in 3E/3.5 are much fussier than earlier editions. That's certainly hard to deny.
I have never bought a issue of Dungeon until now. I don't have much use for non-campaign specific mini-adventures. But continue to put out full on Greyhawk content like Maure's Castle (including the upcoming 4 maps, curse you) and I will continue to buy Dungeon.
Dungeon #112 is great. I especially like Gary's article from 1974 which confirms my long held opinion that D&D is more Sword and Sorcery like Howard and Leiber than Lord of the Rings.
Originally posted by Elendur
I especially like Gary's article from 1974 which confirms my long held opinion that D&D is more Sword and Sorcery like Howard and Leiber than Lord of the Rings.
I agree that Gary's article was very interesting - a fascinating snapshot into the infancy of the game that many of us grew up playing.
I wanted to comment on the comparison to the stories of Robert E. Howard and Fritz Leiber. I'm reading Leiber's Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser stories now for the first time, and I've been repeatedly struck by how much it seems like a D&D campaign. I'd say that there are also elements of Tolkien in the game, but I'll agree that it's wrong to stop there when you're listing fantasy influences on the game. And for anyone who's never read the Fafhrd/Grey Mouser stories, go do it!
I wanted to comment on the comparison to the stories of Robert E. Howard and Fritz Leiber. I'm reading Leiber's Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser stories now for the first time, and I've been repeatedly struck by how much it seems like a D&D campaign. I'd say that there are also elements of Tolkien in the game, but I'll agree that it's wrong to stop there when you're listing fantasy influences on the game. And for anyone who's never read the Fafhrd/Grey Mouser stories, go do it!
I have repeatedly read Lieber and its true, the original Mordenkainen and co. was more like Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser or even Conan. These characters got into alot of trouble(how many nasty things did Robilar release afterall?) and were more interested in personal fame and fortune than saving the world. Only the backdrop of the World of Greyhawk is like Tolkien; Iuz vs good alliances, etc.
I also like the fact that the art used didn't overstylize the art that appeared in the original module. Gives it a real sense of continuity missing in 3.0 products.
Halber
Originally posted by Elendur
....I especially like Gary's article from 1974 which confirms my long held opinion that D&D is more Sword and Sorcery like Howard and Leiber than Lord of the Rings.
Its undeniable that other works besides Tolkien had strong influences upon Gygax and the development of D&D, so no argument there. However, what has to be kept in mind is the fact that early on there was the threat of a law suit from the Tolkien estate against Gygax for copyright infringment because direct references of many Tolkien characters, races, settings, etc. were being used in D&D material. Due to this threat of litigation, all Tolkien-specific references were stopped and from that point on Gygax made the claim that Tolkien's work had little influence upon the game, and in fact he claimed that he didn't even like Tolkien's works at that point. Gygax downplayed the role that Tolkien's work had upon D&D from then on as a means of keeping himself and D&D out of litigation with the Tolkien estate.
As stated at the beginning of my post, it is certainly the case that that there were many other strong influences upon D&D in the early development (like Jack Vance, Rober E. Howard, Paul Anderson, etc.), but the influence of Tolkien upon D&D and its development cannot be ignored or completely minimized.
but the influence of Tolkien upon D&D and its development cannot be ignored or completely minimized.
why not, people ignore or minimilize pertinent facts all the time.
As stated at the beginning of my post, it is certainly the case that that there were many other strong influences upon D&D in the early development (like Jack Vance, Rober E. Howard, Paul Anderson, etc.), but the influence of Tolkien upon D&D and its development cannot be ignored or completely minimized.
>>>
And yet it's interesting that in 1974, well before there was a cult of personality attached to Greyhawk or Gygax specifically, and I believe well before the legal threats from the Tolkien estate, Gary did not list Tolkien among the "champions of Swords & Sorcery" who directly influenced the game.
This article, published in an obscure midwest wargaming magazine when Gary was essentially a nobody, would certainly seem to be a potential smoking gun for those hoping to prove that Tolkien was one of the primary influences of the game, and yet such evidence does not appear in the article--telling when tying the new game to Lord of the Rings would have probably been a smart business decision at the time.
Indeed, Tolkien's name is mentioned in the first sentence of the article, but this seems mostly to provide context for the current (c. 1974) popularity of the fantasy genre. Reading Gygax's adventures and (especially) his novels, it seems clear that his primary literary inspirations were Vance and Howard, who have many more "analogues" in the game than Tolkien.
Not meaning to dredge up a 30-year argument, but Hobbits and Ents aside, I think it remains difficult to claim that Tolkien was a primary literary influence upon Gary Gygax's D&D (and hence Greyhawk). Certainly, the popularity of Lord of the Rings in the late 60s allowed many "Sword & Sorcery" stories from the old pulps to re-emerge in the era immediately predating the publication of D&D, but I argue that it from them that Gary took his primary inspiration.
--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dungeon
And another voice saying read the authors mentioned. Once I read The Dying Earth books it was too obvious where the major influences for D&D had come from.
I got my copy and was just sucked into it- I carefully read the whole thing all the way through, something I haven't done with D&D material in twenty years.
The ongoing commentary in this thread about Gygax's literary influences bears special relevance to "Maure Castle--" the setting and story seem to me the most Jack Vance-influenced material I've *ever* seen from Gygax and company....from the whimsical long-winded NPC descriptions (Mezzik, of the "Demiplane of Knowledge Concerning the 666 Layers of the Abyss and the Layers of Carceri") to the larger structural devices (control batons, giant faces in the wainscotting, a la "Guyal of Sfere")
I love Vance's writing, and I love Gygax's classic dungeon crawls. "Maure Castle" was an absolute treat.
D.
Gary never liked Tolkien that much. When I used to peruse his laden bookshelves, he would turn me towards De Camp, Howard, Poul (not Paul) Anderson, Pratt, Leiber, Moorcock, and with great insistance that I read Vance, starting with "Eyes of the Overworld." I had become fascinated with Tolkien and found the others great, too, and in turn for "egging" me on to read Lovecraft. I later turned him on to Clark Ashton Smith. But he used to poo-poo Tolkien as not of the ilk that I should really brand myself in S&S with, but he did admit that Tolkien had some great stories.
Two anecdotes:
When the board game "Battle of the Five Armies" was released by TSR EGG directed me to contact Paramount to legally pursue the licensing of Tolkien products. So the cart came before the horse, somewhat, but at least Gary was earnest about it, whereas other companies, of which there were a few then, were merely using the names and critters, etc. without as much as asking. Paramount, then pursuing the animated movie, refused the offer and that was that. Names were changed, BoFA game never was reprinted (though it did wildly well in mail order, as I was also the former Shipping Director for TSR and tracked such orders).
Gary approved immensely of my "Tolkien in Dungeons and Dragons" article in one of the earliest DRAGONS (forget which one) where the real crux of the argument opposing him as an influence on the game reared its head. Tolkien's world was an epic concluding; the remaining authors which he lived by, read, emulated and corresponded with (De Camp, Leiber, Vance and sometime Carter) were epics in the making, spread over many stories which seemngly had no end. Call it High vs. Low if you will, but that misses the mark. This was freebooting adventuring compared to the quest motif imposed on a world of high fantasy. Being an avid reader of the pulps, there is no question what Gary found exciting and influential, and why when faced with the imagination of Tolkien he could still appreciate it for its particular imaginative qualities, but otherwise saw it as something foreign to the ultimate concept of swashbuckling adventure.
Just my take after all these years.
Rob Kuntz
If Tizoc already has his, hopefully mine'll come tomorrow!Originally posted by ZayeneII
Gary never liked Tolkien that much. When I used to peruse his laden bookshelves, he would turn me towards De Camp, Howard, Poul (not Paul) Anderson, Pratt, Leiber, Moorcock, and with great insistance that I read Vance, starting with "Eyes of the Overworld." I had become fascinated with Tolkien and found the others great, too, and in turn for "egging" me on to read Lovecraft. I later turned him on to Clark Ashton Smith. But he used to poo-poo Tolkien as not of the ilk that I should really brand myself in S&S with, but he did admit that Tolkien had some great stories.
While Tolkien and the other authors mentioned above (Howard, Leiber, Moorcock, et al.) all wrote what we call fantasy, they really are in different genres (or subgenres, I suppose). Howard's Conan stories are the quintessential sword and sorcery stories. Leiber's Fafhrd and Grey Mouser are also firmly in that category. "The Lord of the Rings" is a different kind of fantasy story. It's not sword-and-sorcery fantasy. And the correlation between D&D and sword-and-sorcery fantasy is clear as soon as you start reading it. There's room for Tolkien-style elements, but the heart of the game is sword and sorcery.
Anyway, thanks, Rob, for that insight. You mentioned that when Gary recommended Vance, he suggested that you start with "Eyes of the Overworld." What would you recommend?
Originally posted by ZayeneII
I later turned him on to Clark Ashton Smith.
Rob Kuntz
CAS is my most favorite writer ever. He creates cool names that are very alien, yet suprisingly easy to pronounce. I loved his Samtampra Zieros stories, very D&D like. And his Zothique stories give me ideas upon ideas for adventures.
He is all at once, a gothic horror, sword and sorcercy, and beat poet and prose writer, all well before any of that became anywhere near mainstream. I have turned many of my Goth freinds on to him, and now they have quotes from his books on their websites.
Halber
Originally posted by Druixin
First off- Massive, standing-ovation kudos to Messrs. Kuntz, Gygax, Mona and whomever else was involved in producing "Maure Castle" in Dungeon #112. It is absolutely GREAT!
Hear hear!!! :D Totally agree! I just finished reading it and it was brilliant. I hope sales figures reflect this so that we can look forward to something similar from Dungeon in the near future.
I would start with Dying Earth where the spell system was drawn from. The adevntures of the wizard in there are rife with names and the procedures used to implement spells. Then, for the more light-hearted, Eyes of the Overworld, Rhialto the Marvelous, et al.
On CA Smith. Vance admitted heavy influence from this quarter, as have other writers. There are so many good stories just overflowing with tasty tidbits, dark humor, eldritch sorcery and the strange lands which we only see in our dreams and try to envision while playing the game. Smith in turn was influenced by Dunsany, another favorite of mine. Out of the Weird Tales triumvirate (Lovecraft, Howard and Smith) Smith was perhaps the most polished and imaginative. Also a poet (published his first volume at age 17? and won accolades from the likes of George Sterling and Ambrose Bierce, et al), fine artist and sculpter. A true genius in his time _and_ self educated as well beyond his 6th grade schooling--he read the complete Britannica and OED twice, IIRC, and taught himself French and Spanish.
That no one has written nary a history about this man is even more fantastic than his stories are! Someone did a d20 send up to his world of Zothique. I downloaded the file--looks nice with art and all, and for the interested I will post this address and link after rummaging my drives for it.
EDIT: Here's the link:
http://www.eldritchdark.com/misc/zothique-d20.html
Rob
On CAS: Is the Arkham House collection of his work (A Rendezvous in Averoigne?) still in-print? After reading Rob's raves about his work a few months back I went to a local bookstore and spotted this book but it was too expensive to buy at the time ($30+). When I went back a few weeks later the book was gone and I've never seen it again since. I'd hate to think I'd blown this chance...
On Dunegon #112: Bought it over the weekend, skimmed the updated material (which, honestly, I wasn't crazy about, wondering why they couldn't have just left well enough alone and reprinted the original adventure with updated stats) and am still in the middle of reading the new level which is tremendous, definitely the best new rpg-related material I've read in a long, long time! I love the tricks and traps and encounters, I love the decadent Maure family, and I really love the hints of everything that lies beyond. I'd very much like to see more of this developed in the magazine. I'm getting a very "A. Merritt" feel from reading about this level, but that might just be my own projection because I've been reading his books lately. Anyhow, great, great work Rob, something to be really proud of, and it must be gratifying to see the overwhelmingly positive response (am I just naive or has there been any negative reaction to the actual content (not counting format complaints -- why are we only getting 1 adventure? why no Polyhedron?); all I've seen is tons of very strong praise).
Vance went on to write three more collections in the "Dying Earth" setting: "The Eyes of the Overworld," "Rhialto The Marvelous," and "Cugel's Saga." He also produced the "Elder Isles" trilogy, which takes place in a lower-magic (medieval) setting: the three books are "Lyonesse," "The Green Pearl," and "Madouc."
The "Planet of Adventure" tetralogy, although science fiction and not fantasy, is also very D&D--in fact, Gary Gygax in the 1st Ed. Dungeon Masters Guide mentions that he had run a D&D adventure based on it.
My suggestion is to start with the "Dying Earth" books (all four collections have been collected into one omnibus edition that's been sold under different names, including "Tales of the Dying Earth" and "The Laughing Magician.") Warning: the individual stories vary enormously in style and quality, from "cranked-out-to-pay-the-bills" to "absolutely sublime--" I'd advise any Vance newbies to read several of his stories before forming an opinion.
D.
Originally posted by ZayeneII
That no one has written nary a history about this man is even more fantastic than his stories are! Someone did a d20 send up to his world of Zothique. I downloaded the file--looks nice with art and all, and for the interested I will post this address and link after rummaging my drives for it.
EDIT: Here's the link:
http://www.eldritchdark.com/misc/zothique-d20.html
Rob
I cannot thank you enough for this...CAS is my own personal Shakespeare.
Originally posted by T. Foster
On CAS: Is the Arkham House collection of his work (A Rendezvous in Averoigne?) still in-print? After reading Rob's raves about his work a few months back I went to a local bookstore and spotted this book but it was too expensive to buy at the time ($30+). When I went back a few weeks later the book was gone and I've never seen it again since. I'd hate to think I'd blown this chance...
I don't think anything produced by Arkham House is still in print. The Lovercraft stories have a new publisher. Rob may know better.
$30 is a great price for that book. The last CAS book I bought, Strange Dimensions vol.2 or something, was $150, though I traded in a Dune first printing to reduce the price for it. The Averoigne series is the only one I don't have yet of his.
Halber
Originally posted by Halberkill
I don't think anything produced by Arkham House is still in print. The Lovercraft stories have a new publisher. Rob may know better.
$30 is a great price for that book. The last CAS book I bought, Strange Dimensions vol.2 or something, was $150, though I traded in a Dune first printing to reduce the price for it. The Averoigne series is the only one I don't have yet of his.
Hmm, thanks for the info, Halber, even though it's not what I was hoping to hear. That sound you hear is me kicking myself for not buying this book when I had the chance...
On the other hand, the two books written about Cugel - especially the second, Cugel's Saga - are marvellous books for anybody whose character is a rogue, a bard, or otherwise making his way in a dangerous world by the quickness of his wits and his superior running speed. :D I'd place Cugel just slightly ahead of the Gray Mouser as the "thief archetype."
Don't get me wrong, the Gray One is great, but he's a swordsman first and a thief afterward. (Actually, he's a bon vivant first... then a lecher... THEN a swordsman... then a liar... then a drunkard... then a highwayman... then a loremaster... THEN a thief... then a hedge-wizard...)
Originally posted by Halberkill
I cannot thank you enough for this...CAS is my own personal Shakespeare.
I don't think anything produced by Arkham House is still in print. The Lovercraft stories have a new publisher. Rob may know better.
$30 is a great price for that book. The last CAS book I bought, Strange Dimensions vol.2 or something, was $150, though I traded in a Dune first printing to reduce the price for it. The Averoigne series is the only one I don't have yet of his.
Halber
Actually, Arkham House is still in buisness; still publishing new books and reprinting older ones. (Or should that be Great Older Ones?) They recently reprinted A Rendezvous in Averoigne, which is PACKED with excelent CAS stories. It's a great book, and well worth the price (looks like it's gone up to $32.95 or so).
As for issue #112, it's great to seeing so many people having a good time with it! As Homer Simpson would say...Woo hoo!
--
James Jacobs
Associate Editor, Dungeon
I was fortunate to find a copy of A Rendezvous in Averoigne in a bookstore here in Long Beach several years ago as well, and snatched it up right away.
You might take a look at your local library. When I lived in Arizona, both the library at ASU and the downtown Phx libraries both carried a number of CAS' works. The LA public library also does, as do the Long Beach public library and the CSULB library. I'd imagine most "big" libraries will also.
And keep in mind that I have never liked Greyhawk. That single magazine though..... did sparkle my interest not only because it is a brilliantly written dungeon but also because I was intrigued to know where Greyhawk was headed.
Might not have been the best magazine to learn that (!) but I did come in here hoping to know a little bit more.
Anyway, I'll be looking around. You've won my interest!
Originally posted by James Jacobs
Actually, Arkham House is still in buisness; still publishing new books and reprinting older ones. (Or should that be Great Older Ones?) They recently reprinted A Rendezvous in Averoigne, which is PACKED with excelent CAS stories. It's a great book, and well worth the price (looks like it's gone up to $32.95 or so).
As for issue #112, it's great to seeing so many people having a good time with it! As Homer Simpson would say...Woo hoo!
--
James Jacobs
Associate Editor, Dungeon
How fortunate for me! Thanks for the link, my collection shall be complete.
Technically i think you broke the CoC with that link, I wonder if a Wizo will correct you on it...
And another thing about issue #112, that adventure is so good that you could have given it a card cover and a $10 price tag and it would still have been a great deal. This is better than the Adventure Path modules.
Halber
I would be interested in hearing whether or not the sales numbers for this issue were significantly better then the month before? I wonder how this new direction will do for the magazine? So many question, I hope it works, I'm looking forward to much more GH!
...........................Omote
FPQ
Originally posted by Halberkill
How fortunate for me! Thanks for the link, my collection shall be complete.
Technically i think you broke the CoC with that link, I wonder if a Wizo will correct you on it...
And another thing about issue #112, that adventure is so good that you could have given it a card cover and a $10 price tag and it would still have been a great deal. This is better than the Adventure Path modules.
Halber
D'oh! Thanks for catching that; I took out the link and it's all good and happy now.
--
James Jacobs
Associate Editor, Dungeon
Replete with plot hooks, there are enough side ventures to keep an adevnturer busy for years.
As a mini sourcebook on Greyhawk, Maure Castle has enough information on the ancient Suel and their migrations to keep even the most picky Greyhawk historians busy for years.
The traps and challenges found therein are some of the worst I have ever seen, and yet it is not a "killer dungeon" in the way Tomb of Horrors was. It is possible to survive, provided one exercises his intellect.
The characters found in this module are not simple but complex individuals, each suffused with enough backstory to create alliances, cross-alliances, and mortal foes for the party of adventurers that brave the walls of Maure.
The artwork is some of the best I have ever seen, depicting Greyhawk in the dark and gritty light so many have spoken of
when describing the setting.
Last, and best of all, we now know the history (and machinations) of the infamous Purple Stone.
This module is simply so good that it cries out for further expansion. I have already bought my second copy in hopes of boosting sales. Let's support this puppy as much as possible!
Brilliant work, Rob!!!
I cannot take all the credit myself, as Erik and James were also instrumental in much of the development of the first three levels, expanding upon my original in unique ways.
The Statuary is a staging grounds, as you've noted. There is so much that could come from this. Erik feels that there are some more installments on the horizon but I think he's waiting upon the entire reactions, with statistics, as a "proof in the pudding."
Meanwhile, I am, through his encouragment, sculpting a synopisis for an adventure wherein Robilar does return upon the scene.
Rob
Though I know it is not exactly the direction that Rob's Robilar went in, in the current story line Robilar might think it to be quite nice lording it over an entire army as a general(albeit at the behest of Rary). But after a while, this would probably become much too boring for him. Robilar seems to me the penultimate adventurer. We ARE talking about the guy who solo'd the Temple of Elemental Evil after all. Sure, he let loose a rather bad toadstool in the process, but what can you expect from just a party of one? Overall I'd say he didn't do too bad.
And will Quij be present, or did he pay the ultimate price for making master's flying carpet into a poncho(or some other clever idea)?
Maure Castle a great adventure, and part of its greatness stems from the fact that there are so many dangling plot strings. These are what enable DM's from all campaigns to fit such an adventure into their Greyhawk or other campaign. We don't need to know Eli Tomorast's shoe size or exactly everyone he has under his thumb. Leaving a bit up to individual DM's is always a key thing. It is a hallmark of the older "simpler" modules that are classics. The G-D-Q series is a great example of this. There are lots of inferences as to what the major characters' motivations are, but the actual situations these motivations create are left up to DM's.
By the way, I have sold more issues of both Dragon and Dungeon so far this month than I have for the last three months combined!!! But that's just my store. I hope this means we might all see even more Greyhawk stuff in the near future.
Originally posted by ZayeneII I cannot take all the credit myself, as Erik and James were also instrumental in much of the development of the first three levels, expanding upon my original in unique ways.
Rob, did you revisit the original three levels yourself at all, or are the additions/tweaks/changes/updates/whatever the work of Erik and James? Sorry for being vague, but my copy still hasn't arrived :/
The Statuary is a staging grounds, as you've noted. There is so much that could come from this. Erik feels that there are some more installments on the horizon but I think he's waiting upon the entire reactions, with statistics, as a "proof in the pudding."
Erik, what kind of numbers are you looking for in terms of going ahead with additional Maure-related development? Also, if that decision is a go, when would it be likely to be made---next month, GenCon, later???
Meanwhile, I am, through his encouragment, sculpting a synopisis for an adventure wherein Robilar does return upon the scene.
Muhahahaha! :>
Erik: I've always admired the way in which you have kept Greyhawk in the minds of all of those that you connected with.
I haven't had a chance to read the actual adventure, so I will save my praise for Rob and Gary for another time.
BUT, I did read the Editorial, and Gary's original article from 1974... GREAT STUFF... I have, or have seen a ton of old stuff, but certainly nothing from that era... We take so much for granted now... I to remember those feelings that you expressed... I'm still amazed that the bindings on my 1st Editoind AD&D are in such excellent shape...
To hear Gary describe the original encounter was just excellent....
Pat E
I agree, it was great reading Gary's artcile again, wherein he recounts me butchering--erh--challenging, his PCs! : )
Seriously. We've had almost too much fun with WG5 in its pre-published, post-published, and now transformed, stage. It's almost against Greyhawk Law!
Note quite...
Rob Kuntz
Erik, what kind of numbers are you looking for in terms of going ahead with additional Maure-related development? Also, if that decision is a go, when would it be likely to be made---next month, GenCon, later???
>>>
Well, one reason the magazine business is so tough is that it takes several months to know how a specific issue has done. Anecdotal evidence, however, suggests that this may be the most popular issue of my Dungeon tenure, if not the magazine's history.
So I think it's quite likely we'll see more Maure Castle levels in the future, probably one at a time.
But first I want Rob to do this Robilar module.
--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dungeon
Just joking, as my friend is the consumate time-keeper!
Robilar it is, Erik But things will not be the same as they used to be. Robilar starts this addy washed up on a shore in the Azure Sea...
The only teaser you'll get from me, btw.
Oh, and that there's a very small introductory fiction piece which sets the stage for the adventure. : )
Rob
Robilar it is, Erik But things will not be the same as they used to be. Robilar starts this addy washed up on a shore in the Azure Sea...
The only teaser you'll get from me, btw.
Sweet! Let the speculation begin!
Originally posted by mortellan
Sweet! Let the speculation begin!
Actually, can we see the explanation first?
Robilar, and Rary, are in the bright desert according to the last mention of them in LGJ.
What's he doing in the azure sea? Please don't just disregard GH canon here.
Found this elsewhere:
Originally posted by Rob Kuntz
Erik Mona is encouraging me to write an adventure dealing with the "Return of Robilar". As of this moment I have 500 words of the introductory fiction piece written. The outline continues to flesh out the concept of the real Robilar returning from Lynn to find his identity taken by a false Robilar.
Please, please, please! Do not do this! Erik, Rob, I beg you! Don't turn 15 years of Greyhawk canon into a season of Dallas.
Come on guys, work with the existing canon, don't take the cheap and easy way out.
I like a setting to be dynamic and surprising. Let's not be too conservative. Keeping Greyhawk alive means keeping it moving.
And why is this against canon? It actually fits seamlessly IMO.
(Plus, Robilar is Rob's character so he should have some extra freedom determining what happens to him.)
Quote: "Robilar, and Rary, are in the bright desert according to the last mention of them in LGJ.
What's he doing in the azure sea? Please don't just disregard GH canon here."
That of course was the Rary the Traitor version. Other versions existed before that change took place and I am investigating melding the two, specifically for the reason that Robilar would never have attacked Mordenkainen (read DUNGEON #112's ToC and the quote Erik places there). That story was written back in 1977 (redone for Oerth Journal) and is canon, too. We needn't argue official or unofficial, as it was very official when Gary and I played it, Dave Arneson DMed it. Can't get any more official than that, heh? : )
The upshot is that Rary the Traitor took liberties
with my PC as previously written about, played and DMed. This will correct these without disturbing the apple-cart, indeed it explains everything neatly and the plot seamlessly integrates well in all versions of Greyhawk.
More discussion about it here, which is where your second quote is taken from.
http://p085.ezboard.com/fpiedpiperpublishingfrm6.showMessage?topicID=102.topic
Erik has yet to respond to this, though he is aware of this story-line (which I am very fond of) as it was forwarded many years ago (1995?).
--Robilar
Ken
Quote: "I like a setting to be dynamic and surprising. Let's not be too conservative. Keeping Greyhawk alive means keeping it moving."
Well said! Especially the last sentence. Greyhawk was in need of some dusting and shining. It needn't remain an icon we only remember in passing. Activity, action, momentum. Greyhawk needs these words applied to it again.
But I guess I drove this discussion off topic a bit for which I apologize.
Rob
Originally posted by ZayeneII
Robilar it is, Erik But things will not be the same as they used to be. Robilar starts this addy washed up on a shore in the Azure Sea...
Well son of a ... gun ... I was all prepared for Issue #112 to be my last dungeon (I haven't picked up the mag in years, only got that one because of that funky adventure ;) ) and now you have to go and ruin that plan with another funky adventure. May the curse of a thousand neogi chew on your toenail fungus, Rob!
Originally posted by ZayeneII
Erik has yet to respond to this, though he is aware of this story-line (which I am very fond of) as it was forwarded many years ago (1995?).
--Robilar
Doesn't sound unreasonable to me. In all honesty, the whole Rary & Robilar betraying everybody seemed...odd at best. I think it was one of those things where they had a plan for it (beyond Rary the Traitor), but never really implimented it.
Please, please, please! Do not do this! Erik, Rob, I beg you! Don't turn 15 years of Greyhawk canon into a season of Dallas.
Let me just second that opinion. Unless it's the season (1983?) where one of the characters wakes up to discover the previous twenty episodes have "all been a dream."
I'd love to see more *adventures* from Messrs. Kuntz/Gygax/Arneson etc., but I can *well do without* the kind of comic-book/soap-opera pap that dominated D&D for most of the 1990s. To me, a player of the old school, the "Maure Castle" in Dungeon #112 is great because it's a well-written dungeon full of fun, cool, weird, interesting rooms, and *not* because it provides more "official" Greyhawk trivia to the tiny corps of fanboys who catalog such things.
I haven't played D&D in twenty years, but when I flipped through Dungeon #112 at the newsstand, I got the same excited rush I felt when I read "Tomb of Horrors" for the first time in 1979.
D.
I felt at times the Robilar cameos (or rather those of his minions) to be a little gratuitous but given the high quality of the issue I was willing to overlook those. ;)
As to an adventure where the 'real Robilar' turns up claiming the one in the Bright Desert to be a clone, that does seem a little cheesy as a plothook. Granted I'm only inferring this from what's been posted, it does sound like a little cheesy. I'd rather see Robilar remain in the Bright Desert. I know he's Rob's old PC, but I'd rather see a more interesting adventure in the Bright Desert with Robbie than "Evil Twin Skippy" syndrome.
Friends fall out, and from what I've read in LGJ 0 Mordy is more of a crazy megalomaniac genius than EGG's PC ever was, so its plausible Robilar would turn on him if given a decent speel by Rary. After all if you read between the lines its possible Mordy set Robilar up to release Iuz as part of his masterplan.
Stuart
Originally posted by ZayeneII
Mr. VanderMeer:
Quote: "I like a setting to be dynamic and surprising. Let's not be too conservative. Keeping Greyhawk alive means keeping it moving."
Well said! Especially the last sentence. Greyhawk was in need of some dusting and shining. It needn't remain an icon we only remember in passing. Activity, action, momentum. Greyhawk needs these words applied to it again.
Before I begin, I wanted to say that the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer builds off of Rary the Traitor... Anyway...
I sincerely recommend, Rob, that when you get going full bore on your Robilar article, that you contact the Onnwal Triad. I say this not because I think you should "check-in" with the Living Greyhawk campaign, but I believe that you could get some very good ideas about what actually happened with the "Betrayal". I don't want to give anything away, but there had recently been a Living Greyhawk adventure that takes place in the Bright Desert called "Traitor's Road". It deals with Free Onnwal sending an emissary to Rary in the Bright Desert. Some of the "truth" about what happened in the "Betrayal" are revealed, and ... there is probably very good fodder there to build on for your Robilar article to help steer him where you want him to be AND not poop on what has been done to Robilar in your absence. ;)
The Onnwal Triad has done extensive writing about what's going on in the Bright Desert. They have alreardy written an extensive and large article on the Bright Desert that has appeared in the Living Greyhawk Journal. Something I'm sure Erik couldn't let you contradict without a good basis. So we have two post-Rary the Traitor canon sources on Robilar to contend with.
Lastly, I just wanted to throw out my idea about what's happened with Robilar. I remember reading that in the adventures Robilar had, that Gary was allowing Rob to play Robilar at each of the various nine alignments during the campaign. The idea I had was that what if Robilar, in a later adventure that took him to some other plane, got caught in a major arcane explosion that sent him back to Oerth. But it actually only sent back the CE aspect of Robilar... first! This being the Robilar that set history as we have it up to 594cy. Gradually, other aligned-aspects of Robilar will begin appearing on back Oerth. Maybe this is where Rob's adventure picks up, one of the other aligned Robilars showing up in a world where the CE Robilar has made history. When done, there will be nine versions of Robilar running around on Oerth... unless Robilar(s) only want one of themselves and set about trying to correct the split... either via eliminating other Robilars, or trying to reverse the event that caused the split. You know, Highlander-like, "there can be only one!" *ahem* ;) Or if you have seen the Jet Li movie, The One.
Regards,
Eric Anondson
Halber
I can certainly see the traitor-Robilar be a clone (although you might have a rules problem here; the clone spell has changed drastically in 3e IIRC). Robilar is a powerful lord in Greyhawk, undoubtedly with lots of interests in the city that need to be taken care of while he's gone on some adventure. If he couldn't rely on his henchmen (heh, would you trust the family silver to a bunch of orcs? :D ), and even his friends were probably somewhat unreliable (with Mord being out-of-town just as often as Robilar!), a clone might be the best idea. That way he could "sneak off" to adventure on the other side of the globe, while he could trust that his estate is in good hands.
Rob, I do have some suggestions as well. I believe that the clone spell has been rewritten such that there's no way to have two people active at the same time (its really a variant clone spell from FR, from what I understand). I would suggest either a) include a means (spell?) that mimics the original clone spell, just renamed or b) make the fake Robilar not be a "clone" per say, but a construct/golem of some sort. A golem would make the most sense; Rary could have tapped into the thing's "programming" to cause it to go rouge.
Not that very many bodies of work even by a single author manage to keep rock solid, 100% non-contradictory canon. Heck, its kind of like the real world where things don't always seem to add up & there often a bit of mystery to be found.
Personally, I think campaign worlds as presented in print should be static. They should only become dynamic in our individual groups. But as that ain't the case, I'm happy to let the stewards exercise their imaginations as they see fit.
make the fake Robilar not be a "clone" per say, but a construct/golem of some sort. A golem would make the most sense; Rary could have tapped into the thing's "programming" to cause it to go rouge.
Especially since his cohort, Otto, apparantly crafted some robot-like Golems for Robilar to combat for training ;)
Originally posted by Blackstaff
Especially since his cohort, Otto, apparantly crafted some robot-like Golems for Robilar to combat for training ;)
Interesting...and wasn't it Otto the one that's permanently dead, or was that Bigby?
Otto is safe and sound as far as I know.
Originally posted by Mortepierre
The one perma-dead is Otiluke given Tenser was brought back (literally) from the moon.
Otto is safe and sound as far as I know.
Thanks...couldn't keep straight who was dead and who was not...;)
No matter what happens (and it's important to note that I haven't seen a manuscript or even a formal proposal, yet), the story that Rob comes up with must work within the framework presented by the From the Ashes timeline and the Rary the Traitor product. I'm not going to upturn, as Mar said, fifteen years of continuity.
I may, on the other hand, shine a different light upon one of the least satisfying aspects of Greyhawk's development in the post-Gygax era.
Someone posted that they thought Rary's betrayal was something to be developed in the future. I don't think so. I don't think, frankly, they had any idea what they were doing, and created the storyline out of nowhere because "Rary the Traitor" are three words that sound interesting and might sell product.
There's simply no evidence that Rary's betrayal was part of an ongoing plot to be followed up on in future products. Frankly, there's not a lot of evidence that much thought was put into it at all, since Rary is described in the boxed set as one of the most passive, least aggressive members of the Circle of Eight. Further, the "Rary the Traitor" product itself glosses over Rary's motivations in favor of focusing primarily on pedestrian and largely undetailed encounter locations that could just as easily fit in a desert locale in the Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance campaign settings.
We are asked to believe that the most intelligent member of the Circle of Eight became obsessed with the histories of the Great Kingdom, Iuz, and the Scarlet Brotherhood, and became convinced that evil was the way to go. At the time when he made that decision, the Great Kingdom was clearly a failed state (and had been so centuries before the arrival of the "evil" House Naelax). The Scarlet Brotherhood had only just played its public hand, over-extending itself considerably and forfeiting its status as a behind-the-scenes manipulator of events. A mixed success, by almost any measure.
And Iuz is Iuz.
Even the justification for why Rary betrayed his cohorts lacked credibility, and is (in my opinion) one of the Great Stains of the From the Ashes period. The concept of Rary turning traitor and slaying members of the Circle is conceptually sound, as it brings excitement to the setting and a much-needed house-cleaning to the Circle. The "canonical" reasons given for the betrayal, and Robilar's involvement in it, lack credibility and reveal (in my opinion) a lack of engagement with the source material and a lack of understanding about the some of the primary NPCs in the setting.
Whatever form Rob's submission takes, it won't be an attempt to put Rary's betrayal into a greater context. That's a struggle for a much later date, and we've been setting up stuff related to that in the Journal since the very beginning, with the able assistance of many writers associated with the Onnwal Living Greyhawk triad, who seem to have taken a shine (read: obsession) with the subject.
As the creator of Lord Robilar, Rob is interested in placing that character's recent history into context as part of the background of a rough-and-tumble first-edition-style D&D adventure, and I'm keen to entertain his ideas.
--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dungeon
Originally posted by Erik Mona
Someone posted that they thought Rary's betrayal was something to be developed in the future.
That'd be me
I don't think so. I don't think, frankly, they had any idea what they were doing, and created the storyline out of nowhere because "Rary the Traitor" are three words that sound interesting and might sell product.
There's simply no evidence that Rary's betrayal was part of an ongoing plot to be followed up on in future products. Frankly, there's not a lot of evidence that much thought was put into it at all, since Rary is described in the boxed set as one of the most passive, least aggressive members of the Circle of Eight. Further, the "Rary the Traitor" product itself glosses over Rary's motivations in favor of focusing primarily on pedestrian and largely undetailed encounter locations that could just as easily fit in a desert locale in the Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance campaign settings.
Well, I don't have Rary the Traitor, so I wasn't sure on the plot-line (if any). But I called the whole thing "odd" for the very reasons you stated above. Rary didn't strike me as the "go to the darkside" type. It was very much a "what the heck?" type things that came out of Greyhawk Wars/From the Ashes that just doesn't make a lot of sense.
As a related aside, when we were in the construction phazes of Maure Castle the whole team remained open to change. Erik was openly concerned about my reactions to the changed subject matter. But let's fast forward. WG5 was written how long ago? Of course things change in the world and not just on the gaming table or by the whim of crafty DMs. I remained open to that eventuality which allowed Erik and James to insert some fine stuff. So I sided with recrafting to update and continue the story, not to revist WG5 by just updating the stats. Where's the forward motion with that? In doing so it became a viable product, I feel, for almost every 'Hawker out there.
Because of the need, which is real, to satisfy every different quadrant of Greyhawk fandom tough and measured choices must be made, starting with the designer (who in this case is also the PC's creator), the publisher/editor, who demand excellence and wish to appeal to as many fans as possible, and to the fans themselves, who are the bottom line as to whether the product was worthy of the ideas and effort put into it by the latter two parties.
That said, I aim to please. I want to see Robilar remainfest other than as an anecdotal character, and in the light of full expression on my part.
As the Sundance Kid said in 'Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid': "I'm better when I move."
So, encouragements and contsructive crticism are always welcome; and, guaranteed, what I have to suggest will be given the full scrutiny of Erik's watchful eye (eeeiiii!) before too long.
Rob
Rary and Mordenkainen masterminded the whole charade. They realized a bit too late the inconvenience of allowing Tenser to bring Jallarzi on board, creating a definite goodly faction in the circle. Being hardened archmages and students of world affairs and politics, they realized that sometimes the ends justify the means. That means getting your hands dirty now and then. A plan was concocted to allow them to keep the circle intact and productive while at the same time letting them pursue the dirtier side of their agendas.
Mordy, being better known, trusted and loved by the rest of the circle (due mainly to Rary's long absences from Greyhawk City tending to his own affairs and agenda in Ket) would remain in direct contact and cooperation with the Circle, while Rary would pursue his tasks behind the scenes.
The intent of the treachery was not to eliminate Tenser and Otiluke, but to ambush the anticipated Scarlet Brotherhood spies and assassins at the treaty signing during a fake public ceremony, while the real ceremony was being held in secret at an undisclosed location in the city.
The problem was the early, unexpected arrival of Robilar and Tasha (she of the uncontrollable hideous laughter spell), both close allies of Otto. Robilar and Otto had grown past their master/servant relationship, but were still close allies. Tasha, nearing the end of her apprenticeship with Otto, was quite smitten with Robilar and his epic tales of derring do. Robilar and Tasha were on errand for Otto, believe it or not simply arriving to confer with the merchants tasked with catering the ceremony (which Robilar, Tasha and Otto, as well as Tenser and Otiluke, all thought to be the real ceremony. Only Rary, Mordy and Bigby knew the true arrangement.)
Robilar arrived shortly before Tasha, and was passing the time waiting for her and the merchants chatting about news of the wars with Tenser and Otiluke, who were there overseeing the security for the ceremony and, or so they thought, awaiting the arrival of Rary, Mordy, Bigby and the delegates.
A word must be given here to the wards Rary had placed to thwart the scarlet sign. Deadly and intricately woven magics were put in place that would be triggered by anyone consciously thinking of the Scarlet Brotherhood upon their arrival to the function.
Tasha, who, like Otto, considers Chathold her home (despite the fact she's actually from Hardby, but that's neither here nor there in this tale) triggered the wards. Upon seeing Otto, who was decked out in his finest garb for the event, including a prominent emblem of Chathold upon his cloak, Tasha's mind raced bitterly to the downfall of that doomed city, which she blames heavily on SB puppetteered corruption of the government there. The last thing she remembered seeing before the magical strike laid her low was the inscribed ward upon the frame of the doorway, including the sigil of Rary.
Boom!
When the dust cleared, Tasha was badly wounded, Tenser and Otiluke dead, and Rary accused, by Tasha's report and the accounts of witnesses who "saw the archmage placing odd magics upon the building early that day" Robilar, thanks to his usual collection of magic and trinkets to protect him, suffered only minor injuries, easily tended by local clerics that day.
Rary, scornful of the corrupt watchmen of Greyhawk city, ignored the charges and proceeded with his plan to leave the city to pursue some mysterious study in his retreat in the Bright Desert, where he and Mordy had been secretly building a force of loyal supporters for reasons known only to them.
Robilar, still loyal to Rary at this point, assuming, rightly, that Rary was falsely accused, accepted a mission from Rary to go to Tenser's Keep and retrieve some sensitive documents and materials, including things related to the Crook of Rao. Rary was doing this because he and Mordy were unsure of Tenser's precautions taken to activate his clones or otherwise prepare for an untimely death, not due to any real malice against Tenser, however, Tenser's clones , in the confusion, mistook Robilar for a looter and attacked him. Due to the lack of preparation of the clones for such quick activation, they were all relatively weak, and easily dispatched by Robilar, who was confident that Rary and Mordy would rectify the situation and allow for Tenser's safe return.
Robilar then journeyed to Hardby, where he hooked up with Rary to journey to the Bright Desert hideaway. In route to Hardby, however, he heard news of Tasha's injuries, Otiluke's death and Tenser's seeming death. He and Rary argued about the turn of events but Rary assured him things were proceeding for the benefit of the greater cause, and Robilar grudgingly dropped it. He didn't forget his fallen friends however, and as the years have passed, his resentment and desire to right the wrongs of that day have grown.
In addition, Robilar's subsequent attempts to contact Tasha have been met with cold contempt. She truly believes that Rary betrayed the Circle and blames him for Otilukes death and her own wounds, which haunt her to this day in the form of nightmares and a pronounced limp. Given Robilar's decision to accompany Rary on his mission in the desert. Tasha understandably assumes he is party to Rary's treason.
OTOH, Tasha is also very bitter and angry with Mordy and Otto and the rest of the circle for their lack of reaction to Rary's actions. She has since returned to Hardby to rally support and enlist mercenaries for a venture into Chathold.
Robilar is slowly but surely reaching the end of his patience with Rary, and this could certainly be the time he defects.
As to Robilar, I look forward to this project which will hopefully be up for review soon. It might take until December until it could be written and see print in the Dungeon schedule, but it would be worth the wait. It will also be a new adventure locale for my campaign as well, which is great. As I run a campaign with a variety of PC's of various levels, somebody will have the pleasure of being able to run through it.
Keep on scribbling those notes and banging those keys, and thanks for all of the repsonses!
---Brian
Originally posted by Eric Anondson
I don't want to give anything away, but there had recently been a Living Greyhawk adventure that takes place in the Bright Desert called "Traitor's Road". It deals with Free Onnwal sending an emissary to Rary in the Bright Desert. Some of the "truth" about what happened in the "Betrayal" are revealed....
The Onnwal Triad has done extensive writing about what's going on in the Bright Desert. They have alreardy written an extensive and large article on the Bright Desert that has appeared in the Living Greyhawk Journal. Something I'm sure Erik couldn't let you contradict without a good basis. So we have two post-Rary the Traitor canon sources on Robilar to contend with.
This is why materials produced for the Living Greyhawk campaign need to be made available to Greyhawk fandom at large. You are not going to get every Greyhawk fan on the planet to join the LG campaign - it's not going to happen. Yet, LG is obviously an important engine in the continued development of the setting. We should all be privy to this kind of thing (with sufficient delay to protect the mystery of the scenarios dealing with them, of course). Sorry to stray from the main topic, but when I read Eric's post, I felt like I needed to say something.
"Whatever form Rob's submission takes, it won't be an attempt to put Rary's betrayal into a greater context. That's a struggle for a much later date, and we've been setting up stuff related to that in the Journal since the very beginning, with the able assistance of many writers associated with the Onnwal Living Greyhawk triad, who seem to have taken a shine (read: obsession) with the subject."
Darn tootin'!
When archmages go bad you know something big is up.
The lack of foresight in the original development of Rary the Traitor aside - it's an interesting puzzle that deserves a good explanation. I've always thought of the one actually given in the supplement as the "Official History" of events - widely circulated and believed in the Flanaess, but, for the reasons Erik pointed out, almost certainly a cover story at best, a load of misinformed speculation at worst. And as we all know from old Uhas of Neheli, it's the Secret Histories that are the most interesting. As Eric (the other one) pointed out, "The Traitor's Road" tried to hint at what might have really been going on that fateful day in 584 CY.
As for Robilar - it'll be interesting to see the new take on him. Mind you, viewed from a certain angle Robilar's actions from 584 CY to the present day (591 or 594 CY depending on where you stand on LG) might not be necessarily contradictory with his loyalty to Mordenkainen...
So perhaps there's no need for Evil Twin Skippy?
P.
Originally posted by ZayeneII
Mr. VanderMeer:
Quote: "I like a setting to be dynamic and surprising. Let's not be too conservative. Keeping Greyhawk alive means keeping it moving."
Well said! Especially the last sentence. Greyhawk was in need of some dusting and shining. It needn't remain an icon we only remember in passing. Activity, action, momentum. Greyhawk needs these words applied to it again.
But I guess I drove this discussion off topic a bit for which I apologize.
Rob
Personally I'm OK with a slow approch to history in the Flanaess. Look at Forgotten Realms or DragonLance. History changes so dramatically over the course of a short timespan that sometimes it is hard to keep up. Especially with FR, update products need to be released to keep up with the changing events in novels and what have you. I think history should be made by the PCs, with the writers only interceding to change the course of something only every so often. Do we need to see ANOTHER continent wide war like the Greyhawk Wars, maybe... but not right now IMO. World-changing, ground shattering events should not be the "dime-a-dozen" that it is in other products. Greyhawk is different, unique and, well Greyhawk!
Put out update material, and new adventures, but as for history... Leave it alone!
my 2 CPs
......................................Omote
FPQ
Originally posted by chatdemon
Rary and Mordenkainen masterminded the whole charade. They realized a bit too late the inconvenience of allowing Tenser to bring Jallarzi on board, creating a definite goodly faction in the circle.
Tasha, who, like Otto, considers Chathold her home (despite the fact she's actually from Hardby, but that's neither here nor there in this tale) triggered the wards.
Good theory. I have always felt Rary was a mastermind above most others, save Mordy. Look at his name spells in the PHB or GHA, most involve mental mastery, mindlinks, improved divinations, psychometry. He is all about scheming and info gathering.
I also like the addition of Tasha, a nice idea to see another 'named' wizard of lore find a niche within contemporary events.
Shall I sidetrack this with CAS and Merritt influences for Gary and Rob, or start a new thread? Heh!!
Either way would be fine with me. Vance/CAS/A.Merritt deserve FAR more recognition than they're currently receiving, on these boards or elsewhere.
Oh, and add Lord Dunsany to the list while you're at it. "The Charwoman's Shadow" and "The King of Elfland's Daughter" were huge influences on my campaign (and Kuntz/Gygax/Arneson's too, I'll wager.)
D.
truthfully....I think they were stumped for ideas and took a page from Tolkien. Rary the Traitor is way too much like Saruman the Many-Colored in my belief.
I own a copy of it and can say without a doubt that its a lackluster product. Not meaning to step on anyone's toes (specifically the author)...but its just not up to snuff.
Originally posted by chatdemon
Here's my theory on Rary/Robilar/Mordenkainen and the 'treachery', for those interested:
Rary and Mordenkainen masterminded the whole charade...
Well said, chatdemon. This is more akin to my campaign where the whole "traitor" thing is more complex than what is generally known. I have always felt that Mordenkainen had more to do with the situation and your take on his relationship with Rary is pretty cool. I don't believe that Rary "went evil" rather, it's an intricate power play where the details and motivations are known only by a select few. The problem is that I was away from the game for a few years, post FtA, and I don't have reference to the Co8/Rary/Robilar story arc. Other than Canonfire, "Traitor", FtA, & "Return of the Eight", where can I get additional info on events that involved these NPC's?
While I cant consider myself an "avid" Greyhawk fan, I am nonetheless a fan of the setting, and have been since the days of the first Greyhawk box set.
I am impressed by this issue of Dungeon, very impressed. I have a sub to Dragon, but I had let my Dungeon sub lapse. This issue floated my fetlocks, so I am seriously considering getting a new sub to Dungeon.
I REALLY hope we get see more work like this in the future!
Thanks to all involved!
btw: I still have my copy of the Rogues Gallery. I think it would be kind of cool to see some of those characters listed in the back such as Robilar, and Erac's Cousin converted to 3.5.
Originally posted by grodog
Still waiting....
Holy hell man, issue #113 will be out before long! What was the hold up again?
I thought it had a arrived last week, but that turned out to be Dragon.
-wn
I haven't seen it anywhere yet. And I am dying to pick one up.
Originally posted by Scoti Garbidis
Has 112 hit newstands in the US?
I bought mine off a newstand (well, actually a FLGS) sometime before June 1st. (I know it was before then, because that's when I posted my compliments to Mr. Kuntz.
)---Brian
Originally posted by ZayeneII
That of course was the Rary the Traitor version. Other versions existed before that change took place and I am investigating melding the two, specifically for the reason that Robilar would never have attacked Mordenkainen (read DUNGEON #112's ToC and the quote Erik places there). That story was written back in 1977 (redone for Oerth Journal) and is canon, too. We needn't argue official or unofficial, as it was very official when Gary and I played it, Dave Arneson DMed it. Can't get any more official than that, heh? : )
Actually, we can. Despite anyone's opinion of it, Rary the Traitor is a published piece of Greyhawk canon. That supercedes any unpublished lore, no matter who created it.
The upshot is that Rary the Traitor took liberties
with my PC as previously written about, played and DMed. This will correct these without disturbing the apple-cart,
With all due respect to you as the creator of the character, that quote pretty much illustrates the lack of objectivity here and shows, as I see it, a complete lack of desire to acknowledge the story in Rary the Traitor and subsequent product that used it as background.
indeed it explains everything neatly and the plot seamlessly integrates well in all versions of Greyhawk.
Sure, but it does it in a very cliched and overused way. Not once, but twice in Greyhawk lore has the use of clones been called upon to bring members of the Circle of 8 back from the dead.
I'm not opposed to revamping Robilar or Rary, as my example alternate Treachery story shows, but I think we need to come up with a more creative and interesting story about the inconsistencies than the tired old 'evil clone/good clone' excuse.
"Actually, we can. Despite anyone's opinion of it, Rary the Traitor is a published piece of Greyhawk canon. That supercedes any unpublished lore, no matter who created it."
"We?" It is my opnion none-the-less. It is part of Greyhawk lore, but it is only canon depending on who adopts it. I for one do not, as the basis for its adaptation is soley dependant on the work I performed on the PC as my character and no other. I am canon when it comes to the original Robilar. Now, one can change it to suit needs, but to say that is canon afterwards, specifically when it breaks from a pre-established order as created and governed by its originator, is not worthy of me even commenting on.
"With all due respect to you as the creator of the character,"
Nice to give me respect back that you forsook giving in your first sentence!
"that quote pretty much illustrates the lack of objectivity here and shows,"
Or, it's just an opinion which "we" have to live with, insults aside.
"as I see it, a complete lack of desire to acknowledge the story in Rary the Traitor and subsequent product that used it as background."
Quite correct! Now "we're" getting the gist. I dislike the story tremendously for those facts already stated.
"Sure, but it does it in a very cliched and overused way."
The enire holistic concept is not even aired enough for anyone to seriously call it cliched and overused. More opinions...
"Not once, but twice in Greyhawk lore has the use of clones been called upon to bring members of the Circle of 8 back from the dead."
This is entirely different; and it fits in well with the idea that clones were being used at that time period, so it is bactracking in time to define and move ahead (like I'm not doing responding to this post...)
"I'm not opposed to revamping Robilar or Rary, as my example alternate Treachery story shows,"
I found yours as interesting as the original...
"but I think we need to come up with a more creative and interesting story about the inconsistencies than the tired old 'evil clone/good clone' excuse."
Creativity is my game, and it is not conducted by committee too often. I'll leave the "We's" for "you". If Erik likes it and wants to publish it, it will be for the fact that it maintains a high level of creativity and useability, not for canonical purposes.
Cheers!
And hearty respects to _everyone else_ on this board, nothwithstanding my broadside for Chatdemon!
Robilar
I wouldn't be too keen on anybody writing a story about MY characters either. The least that they could have done was get Rob on board to help with the project. Or at least get his input. Doesn't look like either was the case.
And as to canon, I'm sure Greyhawk Castle is the penultimate example of canon as well, simply because it was published by TSR.
First off, people make mistakes and so do the developmental teams of entire companies. Arguing the semantical meaning of the word "canon" is not the point here. Do I consider RtT canon? Area material- yes(as not much has been written regarding The Bright Desert). The rest- questionable. Do I use it? Why yes, yes I do. Do I use it fully? No. But that is just me.
I'd say Rob is perfectly entitled to his "lack of objectivity" regarding his own character. it might havve something to do with the fact that he knows the character better than anybody- its his! He knows what the character is about- certainly more so than somebody who didn't even know what the character's heraldry was, don't you think??? That last bit simply proved to me when RtT came out that it was written by somebody not all that familiar with the published material regarding the character. There are plenty of other such inconsistencies within other material published around that time as well. Do I consider the inconsistencies canon? No. They contradict the information originally published by the actual creators of Greyhawk and the characters within it. I tend to favor the original creators when issues of canon arise.
So, what you see as Rob bashing the efforts of others, I see as a creator's criticism of what is being done with his creation. Is it unfair of him to do so? Hardly. What is at issue is the amount of liscence that was taken regarding Rob's character when RtT was written. The fact that Rob is even willing to work on a project that atually integrates the contents of RtT is to me quite a telling example of how nice he is being to work within a framework not of his own creation, particularly as it regards a character that he created and has played for decades.
So if anybody is fostering any grudges here, it certainly isn't Rob.
So Hey! How about that Maure Castle adventure???
Anybody run it yet???
We've all done similar plotlines in the past, right?
I recall one NPC of mine in particular, Jarsin, a major bad guy in my campaign who I spent hour upon hour carefully crafting, both mechanics-wise and backstory-wise to challenge the players. Well, needless to say, they stomped all over my carefully crafted plot and made quick work of my bad guy.
So what did I do? Voila, that wasn't the real Jarsin, that was a rather inept clone! The real Jarsin proved to be more than a match for the party when I deployed him.
So maybe there is room for this type of plot mechanism after all.
But, oh yeah, I should mention, I was all of 12 years old when I ran that game...
Originally posted by Cebrion
I'd say Rob is perfectly entitled to his "lack of objectivity" regarding his own character. it might havve something to do with the fact that he knows the character better than anybody- its his!
I don't expect, nor am I asking, Rob to heap praise upon what became of Robilar after he was removed from the design equation. I can understand any disappointment or resentment.
I do expect current Greyhawk projects to respect all of the preexisting source material, and I further hope and expect that such cheap and shameless attempts at sidestepping what is now canon will be prevented.
Look folks, I don't like RtT as written either, my alternate storyline as posted here speaks to that. I just expect better quality storylines from guys like Erik and Rob, both of whom have produced far superior work in the past.
"I do expect current Greyhawk projects to respect all of the preexisting source material, and I
further hope and expect that such cheap and shameless attempts at sidestepping what is now
canon will be prevented."
Well, if that had been done in te first place, with RtT, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Quite honestly I don't support mediocre material and none of it ends up on my drawing table, either.
Then again, I have plans for a 30-volume set of hardbacks detailing the Golden Dynasty of Dwarves, Elves and Dragons, as well as the "Partridge in a Pear Tree," follow-up series of adventures which exposes the mating rituals of one-eyed sahaguin...
Seriously, I might even have part of it ready for Gencon, but have recently been under the creative-crunch with other projects, so "we'll" (erh, "I'll") see. Check on me at the Different Worlds booth as I intend on running a few games there, for sure.
Rob
So maybe there is room for this type of plot mechanism after all.
But, oh yeah, I should mention, I was all of 12 years old when I ran that game...
Besides being needlessly insulting, it is also a comparison that makes absolutely no sense. This is not about someone trying to correct a mistake he himself has made. This is about someone trying to work within a context, forced upon his character by others. And he's still trying to fit his story into that context, no matter how much he despises it.
Plus, before you say this is overly cliche... please wait until you've seen it. You don't know what new, creative background will be created in this case.
Originally posted by chatdemon
I do expect current Greyhawk projects to respect all of the preexisting source material, and I further hope and expect that such cheap and shameless attempts at sidestepping what is now canon will be prevented.
Does that include such gems as Puppets, Falconmaster, Castle Greyhawk, or Fate of Istus...;)
Originally posted by ZayeneII
Then again, I have plans for a 30-volume set of hardbacks detailing the Golden Dynasty of Dwarves, Elves and Dragons, as well as the "Partridge in a Pear Tree," follow-up series of adventures which exposes the mating rituals of one-eyed sahaguin...
I have been waiting for extensive material on dwarves myself. I have the 2E Handbook of Dwarves but while this offers much more than the Player's Handbook. I always wanted something more. I can't wait to hear more about these books. Sorry for butting into the argument here but I was just excited after reading that post.
This is about someone trying to work within a context, forced upon his character by others. And he's still trying to fit his story into that context, no matter how much he despises it.
Plus, before you say this is overly cliche... please wait until you've seen it. You don't know what new, creative background will be created in this case.
The ownership of that personal character was given up to the company once it saw print. I think Ed Greenwood wisely negotiated himself some creative control for that very reason. No one fiddles with Elminster but him.
And I think the intended background has already been hinted at, if not here then on another pro-robilar forum. it will have to be quite groundbreaking to be considered new.
First off I'd like to say I really enjoyed Return to Maure Castle and I'm a fan of Rob's works (I've got an original copy of Maze of Zayene 1-4 under shrinkwrap on my bookcase - keep meaning to get the D20 ones sometime).
However, I'm not really fond of (what I perceive are, I may be getting the wrong end of the stick) Rob's ideas of altering what's been done with Robilar post-Greyhawk Wars. I don't see the betrayal as being completely out of character for Robilar (he is evil aligned) and the writeup of him in the Bright Desert says his loyalty to Rary is tenuous, but he gets put in charge of an army and is forging out a new and glorious kingdom.
I don't think there was a lot of canon on Robilar pre-Rary the Traitor (by canon I mean products describing him as opposed to the original Greyhawk campaign). After all I doubt the cleric Serten died at the Battle of Emridy Meadows in Gary's campaign, nor did the Citadel of 8 break up because Robilar couldn't get on with Tenser and so on... but in published Greyhawk these things happened.
Most of the pre-Wars mentions of Robilar beyond the Rogue's Gallery (which is more or less paraphrased in Rary the Traitor) were one or two lines of brief mention - and I don't recall him getting on well with Mordenkainen before the Wars (in fact LGJ 0 by Erik Mona even lists him as a reason why the Citadel of Eight failed and why Mordy formed the Circle in the first place IIRC).
A brief rundown of pre-Wars stuff on Robilar is as follows from the Encyclopedia Greyhawkania:-
Robilar (Lord)[F15][F19][3eF20][NPC]
DRG#37 - 11
T1-4 - 28,34,111
WG6 - 6
WGG - IC,12,19
WGR3 - 4,7-12,16,20,21,26,31,45,48-53
WOGA - 27,42,IBC
The Robilar described in Rary is still an adventurer (although them motives given are a little blurry):-
Robilar began his career as an adventurer, seeking his fortune in the company of such Greyhawk luminaries as Mordenkainen, Bigby, Serten, and from time to time, Rary the Mage. Although his alignment slowly changed from neutral to evil over the years, Robilar re-mained trustworthy and friendly, if somewhat gruff. In those days it was said that his three greatest loves were adventuring, magic, and information.
Sounds like a reasonable Robilar to me so far to me.
Now I don't know what Rob has planned but saying Rary's Robilar was a clone of the real one seems a little overdone. Similarly I don't think it would be possible to neatly bring Robilar back into the fold with his old chums.
What I would love to see is if Rob did something dealing with Robilar in the Bright Desert - maybe a Dungeon scenario where Robilar catches some adventurers in the Bright Desert and being the adventursome soul he is decides to throw them into a fiendish dungeon Robilar wants cleaned out. If they prove themselves they get out, if they die, oh well. This is line with Robilar in Rary the Traitor.
At the end of the day, having Robilar turn out to be a good guy/clone seems a little silly - why not have Rary also turn out to be a clone? Perhaps because Rary did not have a player in EGG's campaign?
Or perhaps a series of modules wherein players see the cracks in Rary and Robilar's relationship? A gradual and logical progression?
On the other hand Rob is free to do what he wants if he doesn't want to work within all the existing Greyhawk canon. I'd think though that such works wouldn't be best for Dungeon, but rather Canonfire or Rob's own website. I'd certainly still look at this material.
Anyroads those are my 2 pence/cents/centimes,
Stuart
Onnwal Triad Schmuk
I think at some point, we have all complained about the lack of consistency between some new product and an older one, usually born out of an unwillingness to research what came before. That is where I understand Chatdemon to be coming from. Nobody really seems to like "Rary the Traitor," but it's out there, and it's not quite as easy to write off as that "joke" Castle Greyhawk. What Chatdemon is suggesting is that whatever happens to try to explain "Rary the Traitor," it should acknowledge what came before and work within that framework. I, for one, like Chatdemon's concept that there was more going on than was publicly known, and that although both Rary and Mordenkainen know the true story, neither of them is telling it (which is interesting in itself).
That said, I can definitely sympathize with Rob over what was done to Robilar, and his sense of ownership over that character. He wants to set the story straight, and I think that's great. I think we all agree that something needs to be done to correct the errors done by "Rary the Traitor." I'm curious to see what Rob comes up with. (I'm also intrigued by what Erik mentioned about the Onnwal Triad and their obession with Rary - I hope we non-LG Greyhawk fans get to see it at some point.)
Originally posted by Erik Mona
No matter what happens (and it's important to note that I haven't seen a manuscript or even a formal proposal, yet), the story that Rob comes up with must work within the framework presented by the From the Ashes timeline and the Rary the Traitor product. I'm not going to upturn, as Mar said, fifteen years of continuity.
I may, on the other hand, shine a different light upon one of the least satisfying aspects of Greyhawk's development in the post-Gygax era.
I think that Erik speaks well to both of the concerns I mentioned in my last post. Sounds like the whole matter is in good hands.
Whatever form Rob's submission takes, it won't be an attempt to put Rary's betrayal into a greater context. That's a struggle for a much later date, and we've been setting up stuff related to that in the Journal since the very beginning, with the able assistance of many writers associated with the Onnwal Living Greyhawk triad, who seem to have taken a shine (read: obsession) with the subject.
Is this going to happen anytime soon? And how long after that will it be before it reaches outside of Living Greyhawk?
Originally posted by chatdemon
I do expect current Greyhawk projects to respect all of the preexisting source material, and I further hope and expect that such cheap and shameless attempts at sidestepping what is now canon will be prevented.
I expect WotC & Paizo to publish interesting & high quality Greyhawk products. To the abyss with canon! I'll worry about what is or isn't canon in my Greyhawk. I'll worry about fitting the peices together.
Even if there was a need for canon--which there isn't--why wouldn't there still be room for issues of "What If?" or "Just Imagine"?
I expect WotC & Paizo to publish interesting & high quality Greyhawk products. To the abyss with canon! I'll worry about what is or isn't canon in my Greyhawk. I'll worry about fitting the peices together.
Well spoken! I agree 110 percent! (Who came up with this "canon" crap anyway? Maybe they should develop their *own* world.)
D.
I have personal, aesthetic and creative reasons for this.
The idea of doing Robilar again is to present him in another context other than as a traitor, a goon or a tenuous ally to a mismanaged wizard. I find that story loathsome, and it directly contradicts Robilar's write-up in the "Rogues Gallery," which states that he "gets the upperhand" in all situations. He did so because I played him like that. If someone else wishes to write his history over again and again, fine by me, I just won't have a part in it. No hard feelings. I might even read it.
I will confer with Erik on this as well. As stated before, if an adventure is crafted it will be creative and useful (i.e., demanding and fun, etc).
Rob
Originally posted by ZayeneII
The idea of doing Robilar again is to present him in another context other than as a traitor, a goon or a tenuous ally to a mismanaged wizard. I find that story loathsome, and it directly contradicts Robilar's write-up in the "Rogues Gallery," which states that he "gets the upperhand" in all situations.
Why not take it from a different angle. That Robilar didn't have a good PR machine behind himself. Maybe Robilar is the power behind the "throne", so-to-speak. If Robilar is one to always get the upper hand, it is certainly plausible that he has the upperhand right now, but just isn't getting the attention. The victor in realpolitik is usually the one who is the most subtle. It is more than believable that Robilar is using Rary. As the Onnwal Triad has developed the Bright Desert (see the article on such in the LGJ), Robilar is not portrayed as "Snead" to Rary's "Captain Hook". He's got his own virtual army that only listens to him, not Rary. And it seems that Rary has to open up negotiations every time he would like Robilar to do anything. Sounds like Robilar is working the angles to get the upperhand to me.
I would think that Rary is having second thoughts about his choice of allies... and maybe thinking he's been had.
Then all that is needed is explaining how Rary got himself in this situation (and probably outside anything directly dealing with Robilar)... and the Onnwal Triad is doing a really good job coming up with good stuff on that.
Regards,
Eric Anondson
Originally posted by Lassiviren
All I can say is "Please God no, not another clone!" I had very little problem with Tenser and Otiluke biting the dust. I agree with the line of reasoning that Rary's motivations were nebulous and ill formed but to do even more major retconning to the history (Tensers long lost clone, Rot8) to appease the ego of one person seems patently silly to me. By all means have Robilar cast off Rary's yoke and carve out his own kingdom some where in the Flanaess, maybe even in the former Bandit Kingdoms or Horned Society (Another threat to Iuz seems noble, no?) but don't start rewriting plot lines yet again.
I agree completely. If Robilar has to try to get the upper hand in all situations, maybe he thought he was going to with Rary. If he needs to go another direction now, it could easily be done by just DOING it. He could pack up his army and leave with it. Robilar can be removed from the current track he's on in published material simply by taking a different direction. It does not have to be done by ignoring or rewriting what was already published.
Also, I think authors being allowed to do "nifty" things with their own personal characters in the game setting is exactly what lead to Forgotten Realms having the feel it has now.
the Onnwal Triad is doing a really good job coming up with good stuff on that.
I liked what they did in Dungeon/LGJ/Poly dealing with the Bright Lands. It 'cleaned up' RtT nicely. What I am curious about since I am not into LG is how/why is Onnwal overreaching into the Bright Desert for development? Was Onnwal too small as a region to develop mods?
Seriously the Bright Desert is being developed in tandem with Onnwal because it's over the water, and because some of our Triad and former-Triad (now metatriad and Circle members) think it's a really cool region, and because no-one else was using Rary.
We're not developing the Bright Desert as part of Onnwal though, it's just a nice core region to explore.
Stuart
Originally posted by ZayeneII
This shouldn't be a canon issue and I did not make it one. However, if DMs want the FTA plotline with Rary continued, they should look to someone else to sculpt it.
That is a shame.
Unfortunately that seems to be the only way to continue Robilar's development in canon GH. Unless of course you do some sort of retro scenario (as in set before the GH Wars but without altering future events).BTW - I liked your take on Xaene and Rauxes in Fate of Istus.
I have personal, aesthetic and creative reasons for this.
Fair enough. I can understand that.
I will confer with Erik on this as well. As stated before, if an adventure is crafted it will be creative and useful (i.e., demanding and fun, etc).
Rob
I get the impression Erik is as much a stickler for canon as I am. Probably worse.
Druixin - Canon was invented to provide consistency within products. It came in rather late in the day, hence a lot of non-canon products (Castle Greyhawk, bits of Fate of Istus).
Sure, in your home campaign or in unofficial netproducts you can do what you like. I know in Woesinger's old campaign Nerull was a neutral deity rather than a psychotic evil deity, but Paul wouldn't write an official GH article referring to Nerull as a neutral deity - that would confuse and confound the issue.
and will not write around/in/out-of-it. Robilar would NEVER have attacked Mordenkainen & Co8, but in fact was a good friend. Mordenkainen saved his life for pete's sake in the Journey to the City of the Gods!
If you guys want a cardboard creation pasted with all sorts of writer's darts feel free to petition someone else. I didn't mean to cause a stir here about this, so I guess this will be my final statement on Robilar until I hear from Erik.
Cheers!
Rob
Originally posted by ZayeneII
Well, (Deep breath). Listen everyone. I hate RtT
and will not write around/in/out-of-it. Robilar would NEVER have attacked Mordenkainen & Co8, but in fact was a good friend. Mordenkainen saved his life for pete's sake in the Journey to the City of the Gods!
If you guys want a cardboard creation pasted with all sorts of writer's darts feel free to petition someone else. I didn't mean to cause a stir here about this, so I guess this will be my final statement on Robilar until I hear from Erik.
Cheers!
Rob
IMO, this thread has deteriorated completely. And that's the real shame. But I am not going to help right this ship. . . .
Someone tell me when this thing called "Canon" was specifically created. As a person who's followed Greyhawk since 1980, I have never heard of someone coming out and stating: "This is the way its going to be, everyone else follow along or else it ain't official!!!"
Maybe people need a refresher. GG and Co. published WoG as an aid to DM's to try to help them get a campaign started. Afterwards, they published modules and wrote articles in Dragon to flesh out areas, again to aid DM's.
IMO, official "Canon" was never suppose to be. . .
It was only after the ouster of GG and Co., that others wanted to put their own stamp on the project, which let to "updating" the setting (aka advancing the CY for the masses). TSR/WotC sold a number of products under the Greyhawk name, some good/most bad, but ultimately making people pick and choose whether to follow the "official" products or be left behind. In short, instead of aiding DM's, these products began to alienate those who did not want to accept the new products into their developed campaigns. Advancing the CY was the biggest mistake in the official development of Greyhawk.
However, when in Rome, you have to do what the Romans do. Thus, (although I don't necessarily agree) Robilar can't be "officially" updated unless its within the framework of FtA/RtT. What I don't understand is why so many people are defending post-GG and Co., products by suggesting how an ORIGINAL PLAYER/DM should play his character to the masses within this framework.
I, for one, would love to see Rob weave a new Robilar tale to really get a sense of what the character is like. Up to now, people have developed their own opinions of Robilar based on scraps of information and recent "offical products" that had no imput from the character's original player. If it "rewrites canon", so be it, it will probably be for the better!!!"
If you don't like Rob's take on things, fine, but don't stamp out an original flame of the Dungeons and Dragons game. Allow Robilar to come to life through the visions of one of the original players and stop defending the corporate line!!!!
You may find something in the product of his imagination (such as Dungeon 112, see I did bring this thread back around) that you may like. . . . give him (and Erik as editor) the benefit of the doubt. :fight!:
That said, I think Rob has probably been unfairly blasted for something that we haven't seen yet and don't know all the details of. It's understandable, of course, since we all love this setting and we all have our own ideas about how it should be handled.
For instance, what if Robilar has been the subject of some kind of mind-controlling spell? That avoids having two Robilars running around the Flanaess, but still explains why Robilar was doing things that he wouldn't have done.
By the way, I keep hearing about what the Onnwal Triad has been doing with Rary. Has there been anything made public other than the Bright Desert article in the LGJ? Is there more coming? When?
First off there was The Future's Bright by Creighton Broadhurst which basically involved the excavation of an Onnwalon vessel that had crashed on the shores of the Bright Desert (a plotline started by Erik Mona in the dispatches section of the LGJ).
Rary's apprentice appeared in our interactives - I can't remember how, but somehow we created a plotline whereby Jian Destron survived an assassination attempt on him thanks to Rary's intervention. Why Rary did this, no-one knows, but Jian had been on a naval patrol when the attempt had been made and strange mists concealed him from the attackers. In return for this, which he claims was a "deal" with the Traitor, Rary's apprentice, Eliazir the Muddled Tongue, demanded Jian's firstborn child.
Jian refused, and after having produced an illegitimate heir named Veryanna on the eve of a major battle the apprentice returned... only to be 'dissuaded' by some other fellow.
Some accounts of Rary's emissary appearing on Onnwal
http://www.onnwal.org.uk/RoyalCourt-Coldeven-592.htm
http://www.onnwal.org.uk/TLN-dispatches.html
http://www.onnwal.org.uk/TLN-8night.html
Then there have actually been two LGJ articles on the Bright Desert IIRC - one with a gazetteer and the other with complete bios of Rary, one of his apprentices (Aza'mut the Muddled Tongue - an NPC referenced in an addition by SRM, the RPGA scenario editor, Future's Bright but never detailed, so Paul and I took it upon ourselves to detail him) and a few other NPCs (Robilar was not included as the Epic Handbook already detailed him).
Then there was the module The Hidden Fortress, which I can't really say much about as its still in play IIRC. This was a continuation of Future's Bright, as in the original module they found a survivor off the Onnwalon vessel who had no memories. Divinations pointed to a dungeon in the Hidden Fortress.
Anyway, after the Long Night incident one of our players had an idea of sending a diplomatic ambassador to the Bright Desert to reach an agreement with Rary
. So Paul Looby obliged the chap by writing "The Traitor's Road" whereby the PCs basically get a road-trip through the Bright Desert and witness first-hand Rary's 'new empire'. Again this is in play, so I won't post spoilers.The story started in The Future's Bright continues further - with a new module slated which will take PCs to Icespire (talk about contrasting enviroments).
So, aside from 3 modules, most of the information on the Bright Desert is in the public domain. And 1 of those modules has retired.
I've also personally written a module wherein the Veryanna-Rary arc has come to a head for the time being.
That's it - if you've any more questions about Onnwal Triad stuff you can get me at skerrigan@onnwal(NOSPAMTHOUGH).org.uk
Stuart
OT
If it "rewrites canon", so be it, it will probably be for the better!!!"
canon should be called continuity.
if anyone saw the Highlander series of movies they would know they are chronologically disjointed and barely make sense together. Its continuity that allows all following material to flow together in a logical manner, otherwise it causes a ripple effect and the whole story breaks down.
I hate RtT and will not write around/in/out-of-it.
So this means there will be no clever duplicates or mind controls or even dream sequences involving Rary, FtA or thereafter. It will be an entirely seperate storyline. I for one like Rob's work yet I would rather have the prequel of Robilar's adventures before meeting Rary than a 'Highlander 4'.
Originally posted by Brom Blackforge
. . . . You don't need to follow official canon in your home game, but anything that's officially published should follow it. In your home game, you can say that "Rary the Traitor" never happened. You can say it's still CY 576. But the published products follow a timeline, they form the (recent) history of the Flanaess. You can't just ignore it. . . .
I guess it's a matter of perspective.
I personally want Rob to update Robilar in any way he sees fit, because his story of his character would carry more weight with me. Why? It's his character and its been twisted and changed without his imput for so long that what is now recognized as a "canon" (= officially recognized world events/characteristics/characters to this point) character is almost unrecognizable by the player. How did this happen? Because the player and character were offically disconnected for so long.
I, for one, relish any chance to reconnect with the original Greyhawk campaign players, which this opportunity affords all of us. Rob was there when the world was born (Yikes, that sounds religions) and, IMO, any story or module from the original worldbuilders offers a chance to "right some wrongs" of the last 20 or so years since GG and Co. left. Many things were created without continuity to the original campaign/players and incorporated into "Canon". Now people are arguing that Robs work would break with continuity. It really depends on your definition of continuity. I like continuity based on the original campaign, while others like continuity based on TSR/WotC products that changed, in some cases arbitrarily, the original campaign.
(Stepping down from my soap box, lets out a heavy sigh)
Today, I guess the only person qualified to determine official canon is Erik Mona, the current WotC keep of the Greyhawk flame. After all I've said, I trust him. I think he's on the right track and has been successful in commissioning new Greyhawk works from the elder Greyhawk statesmen.
I just get annoyed when others try to suggest to Rob how he should develop his player in this new framework, when he was playing Robilar before some of these people were even a twinkle in their fathers eye. It was his intellectual property first. Let him do with Robilar what he wants, trust in Erik, and judge the finished product for yourself. I think Rob's motivations should be recognizable to all.
Originally posted by mortellan
canon should be called continuity.
Keeping continuity in the published products doesn't really do any good since our individual Greyhawk campaigns have been diverging for so long. Something that fits into the official continuity won't fit into the continuity of half our individual campaigns.
Better to echew official continuity & create lots of interesting Greyhawk products. Then I can pick the ones that I can fit into the continuity of my campaign, and you can pick the ones that you can fit into the continuity of your campaign.
After all, it should be about the stories of our PCs, not about some "official" story.
--
Now, the RPGA & LG is a different thing. Or rather, it isn't. It's just another campaign, although a big & very strange one. Presumably they would want to preserve some continuity for LG, but other Greyhawk products shouldn't be expected to be limited by it.
Originally posted by Huron
I just get annoyed when others try to suggest to Rob how he should develop his player in this new framework, when he was playing Robilar before some of these people were even a twinkle in their fathers eye. It was his intellectual property first. Let him do with Robilar what he wants, trust in Erik, and judge the finished product for yourself. I think Rob's motivations should be recognizable to all.
I'm inclined to agree. I rather doubt Rob would have ever allowed Robilar to ever be published had he known what would have been done with his character, likely out of pure spite. Guess the writers who messed around with Rob's character got the last laugh, because now Rob can't even write about his character any more.
Something that fits into the official continuity won't fit into the continuity of half our individual campaigns.
I completely agree, but it's a -DM's- job to make source material fit in his own game and it's the -author's- job to make the source material fit with the broader audience and the best way to do that is stay within the base timeline.
First, I found Maure castle very well writen and i have nothing to say else than "please more maure for Greyhawk Mr Kuntz!"
But: Did Mr Kuntz or Mr Mona received some recommandations, or felt "obliged" not to involved too much this scenario in The World of greyhawk today campaign?
That is to say, have you been told "ok, but try to make it easy to be a generic scenario for non-greyhawk players, we need to sell it to all our readers.." or did you refuse to use too much of the today greyhawk campaign reference because you dont like/dont use them?
Because this Castle, apart from his history and name, don't got a lot of relations (places, npcs, histories etc..) with the last ten years tsr/wotc products for greyhawk.
The design was forwarded for its inherent worth and usefulness. Maure Castle is indeed part of Greyhawk's past, from the original, to FTA, to The Adventure Begins; and Eli Tomorast was even updated in the Seekers article by Gary Holian in the LGJ.
This is a local setting rich with tidbits of history which was just begging to be expanded on.
Rob
Second, I would agree that "continuity" is probably a better term than "canon." One place where I've seen that term used is comic books, and I think that some (though not all) of the same concerns are present here. To some extent, comics reinvent themselves and their continuity every so often (since, for instance, nobody really remembers what happened in 30-year-old comics anyway). So, origins get retold, and sometimes they get updated or changed. I'm not sure that such a thing would be possible here, but maybe so. However, to accomplish that kind of reinvention would almost require a brand new setting sourcebook in which the history could be set forth (and set right). (While the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer has all sorts of history, it lacks the kind of recent historical information that I'm talking about.) Failing that kind of reset, we are faced with incremental changes, which I think is what Erik hinted at - something that would put Rary's actions in a new light.
And finally, thanks, Stuart, for the information about what's been developed for the Bright Desert. I can certainly understand not wanting to spoil scenarios that are still in play. When they are retired, will there be information about them on the Onnwal site?
Originally posted by Lassiviren
Delglath, is that you?
How dare you insult me like that! Err... I mean... him... err... the other guy, not me, y'know... err... I'm not Delglath at all and never have been and you can't prove otherwise!
Hehe, glad to see that Greyhawk is just as vibrant now as it was when I lost my net connection six months ago :D
And chat, my love, some things just never change...
Originally posted by mortellan
I completely agree, but it's a -DM's- job to make source material fit in his own game and it's the -author's- job to make the source material fit with the broader audience and the best way to do that is stay within the base timeline.
No, its the author's job to make interesting source material regardless of whether it fits within any continuity.
Really, is everyone's campaigns managing to track the official continuity so close that you really care? That it really makes any difference whatsoever?
Continuity is needed for presentation, to retain consistency with past events and peoples or ideas. To add to forming history or to back track and expand upon here-to-fore unknown events is not at all without precedence in our game, however--it is in fact the nature of the beast, as the players are not omniscient and expect new things. Take for instance Maure Castle. I had never written Eli up as a Seeker; that was expanded on later, with good results, as it exactly fit his past description and demeanor. Good, Good. Now there is momentum with the idea again. It is no longer a static piece of history and is in fact eveolving as the world changes. Just like real life, there is not a set order to progression, only limitless choices.
Where the idea of rewriting entire histories came from I have no clue; but within the scope of an expanding game I expect changes, sometime drastic ones. To quibble about change in the face of FTA's treatment of Greyhawk (drastic change) is like the pot calling the kettle black, ehh?
And I too see this as an evolving thread.
Rob
Originally posted by ZayeneII
Where the idea of rewriting entire histories came from I have no clue
Some might say that the answer to that is "a mis-spent youth." :D
For my part, at least, I was referring to things like this: originally, Clark Kent worked for a newspaper, but as I recall, at one point, that was changed to a television station or network. I think now it might be back to a newspaper. Or the whole thing about Superman changing his costume in a phone booth doesn't work anymore because there are practically no phone booths anymore.
What does this have to do with Greyhawk? Maybe nothing. It was just something that sparked in my memory when I read Erik's comment about shining a new light on Rary's motives. Everything that has been written since "Rary the Traitor" paints Rary as a traitor, which is certainly the public perception. But if there really is some secret truth, like the one Chatdemon suggested, then that could be added to the history (as it is known to DMs, not to the average citizen of the Flanaess).
For the record (such as it is), I don't think that going back and fleshing out something that came before presents any kind of continuity problems. Rob's example with Eli Tomorast is proof of this, and he's right - look at all of the new interest that this adventure has produced.
Originally posted by ZayeneII
To quibble about change in the face of FTA's treatment of Greyhawk (drastic change) is like the pot calling the kettle black, ehh?
I don't see FTA as being a drastic change. It is actually closer to what you were indicating above, a continuation, an expansion of previous ideas, an extrapolation.
Perhaps you meant the Greyhawk Wars?
I've never quite understood why people dislike the Greyhawk Wars so much. It's a pretty fair extrapolation on the evidence presented beforehand. I mean... these areas were RIPE for war and people argue that it ruined the setting... bleh.
Then there's the arguments that it was crap because there were all these seperate wars at the same time which is highly unlikely and ridiculous...
yeah, whatever.Personally, I like the Greyhawk Wars. It gave the setting a much darker edge to it. The place is absolutely brimming with adventure potential because of it. And the PC's can have a LOT of involvement in the setting to make things better and turn things around. What's the point of adventuring in a world that doesn't need heroes? IMO, Greyhawk didn't NEED heroes before the Greyhawk wars, it just had a bunch of adventurers with nothing on their minds but loot and glory. Which is all fine and well if that's the type of campaign you enjoy, but a lot of people like to be weekend heroes.
I've set my current game just after the Greyhawk Wars because of the above reasons. By the time my player's PC's have reached name level (one of my many homebrew rules additions), they will have done a lot to turn the Flanaess back into what it once was, and will have solidified their agendas for what they wish to accomplish in the future. These things include retaking Tenh and the Shield Lands, preventing Delglath from destroying Grenell and becoming a force as great as Iuz, ousting Iuz from the Bandit Kingdoms and restoring Nyrond to a position of power. And that's just for starters... I also have a suel wizard who wishes to restore the suloise people as the masters of all races, with him at the head of the New Imperium!
Sounds like fun to me... and isn't that what it's all about?
Not to mention it already looks like this adventure will turn out like one of those FR modules that had the players providing muscle for the setting's estalished characters. Seriously, the thing that attracted me to Greyhawk was the absence of players taking the backseat, don't change it because one guy doesn't like what they wrote about his character.
::end::
Originally posted by Coldpenguin625
...but don't flip it around and say "the author didn't like that, so we'll just pretend he was a clone," its patently ridiculous and completely flys in the face of the other material.
Not to mention void of imagination and lazy. Anyone worth their imaginative salt would've come up with a neat explanation to tie everything together whilst still maintaining the original flavour of the character, and on top of that, expanding the world and making it a deeper, richer experience for all those who love it.
Having said that, the whole Rary the Traitor thing sucked major assbutt. It took established characters with established personalities and turned them on their head for no good reason (aside from to publish an adventure). Now THAT was bad writing and unimaginative, uncreative laziness at it's peak. If there was ever a case to be had for the former creators of Greyhawk to be dissed by TSR, it would be this module that would be Item Number 1 in evidence. It so blatently ruined the circle and it's members and changed the whole concept of it into a pansy-assed wannabe's club whilst destroying half of the characters and twisting the others into unrecognizable clones that I'm not surprised some people believe TSR was out to screw with Greyhawk to get back at Gary and Co.
Not that I believe they were, I just think the writers stunk.
Originally posted by Iksander
Having said that, the whole Rary the Traitor thing sucked major assbutt. It took established characters with established personalities and turned them on their head for no good reason (aside from to publish an adventure). Now THAT was bad writing and unimaginative, uncreative laziness at it's peak. If there was ever a case to be had for the former creators of Greyhawk to be dissed by TSR, it would be this module that would be Item Number 1 in evidence. It so blatently ruined the circle and it's members and changed the whole concept of it into a pansy-assed wannabe's club whilst destroying half of the characters and twisting the others into unrecognizable clones that I'm not surprised some people believe TSR was out to screw with Greyhawk to get back at Gary and Co.
I am not so sure about that. After all, the fact that Rary turned against the Circle and his flight to the Bright Desert with Robilar was established in the Greyhawk War boxed set.
Rary the Traitor only made use of that fact and expended on it. IMHO, it wouldn't be fair to blame it all on Anthony Prior who did a good enough job at transforming yet another desert into something worth investigating for heroes.
In the meantime, go Rob, go!!
....it already looks like this adventure will turn out like one of those FR modules that had the players providing muscle for the setting's estalished characters. Seriously, the thing that attracted me to Greyhawk was the absence of players taking the backseat...
Yes!
For my part, I want to see new scenarios with an absolute *minimum* of background info. The new Maure Castle is the first dungeon I've seen in years that's about *playability* rather than fitting into some historical background. Not coincidentally, it seems to be selling well.
Regarding new material fitting into "canon:" in my opinion, the old-school writers (Kuntz/Gygax/Arneson etc.) produced work that was VASTLY more imaginative and original than *anyone* who came after. I think those writers should *not* be hamstrung by having to fit their work into the simplistic and juvenile framework that D&D became after 1985.
D.
Originally posted by Druixin
Regarding new material fitting into "canon:" in my opinion, the old-school writers (Kuntz/Gygax/Arneson etc.) produced work that was VASTLY more imaginative and original than *anyone* who came after. I think those writers should *not* be hamstrung by having to fit their work into the simplistic and juvenile framework that D&D became after 1985.
You would think that. Don't you have a hole to crawl back to? I'm sure they're missing you over on Dragonsfoot. Wouldn't want to take your attention away from your adoring fans over there so please don't feel the need to stick around here...
"Well, (Deep breath). Listen everyone. I hate RtT
and will not write around/in/out-of-it. Robilar would NEVER have attacked Mordenkainen & Co8, but in fact was a good friend. Mordenkainen saved his life for pete's sake in the Journey to the City of the Gods!"
Ah, but Rob - he didn't attack Mordenkainen - he attacked Tenser and Otiluke...
There's a subtle difference there that, with a little bit of clever steering could allow the statement "Robilar would never turn on Mord" and the statement "Robilar helped kill off Tenser and Otiluke" (actually only Otiluke...*someone* missed that last damn Tenser clone) to be reconciled quite nicely.
And what price friendship if the fate of the world and the Balance is on the line? All having power means that the sacrifices you have to make are all the greater and the more painful. Bigby certainly found that out...
C'mon people, did nobody watch the X-Files or Babylon 5 around here? The "Truth" is often just the Illusion of Truth.
From your statements, Rob, you might not be interested in exploring that, and as a writer that's your perogative (and why being a writer is the best job in the world). From the perspective of dealing with the Rary the Traitor plot, a plot that you can see from the evidence of this thread has caught a lot of people's interest and imagination, IMO (and it's only that), some thought should be put into any tinkering with the main protagonists so that a coherent and satisfying resolution (that sparks the imagination of DMs and players and leads to gazillions of spin off adventures) can be found.
Then again, engaging full paranoia mode, if someone thinking he's Robilar washes up on a beach, who says it's really Robilar?
A healthy dose of deviousness helps the medicine go down.
P.
Great adventure...finally finished reading through it and I can't wait to get my group up to huigh enough level to use it! (Although I might just adapt it for my GH Hackmaster campaign!)
As to the Robilar question: endless specualtion based on one sentence is meaningless. It is in the hands of professionals. If Erik likes Rob's story, it'll get published. If not, it won't.
Remember also that there as many GH's as there are DM's who run in GH. I personally was disappointed with many of the changes in FtA....I don't use the whole "world war" concept. The Great Kingdom collapsed due to an internal civil war, Iuz took back Molag and skirmished with the shield Lands gaining some border areas, there is no great Orcish Empire (although the orcs are organizing), etc. I used an article from Dragon to use Rakasta (from Red Steel/Mystara) in the Pomarj as well as Lupin. I recently set Green Ronin's Freeport in the Pomarj, so i adapt material from "non-canon" sources. Hell, gunpowder even exists in my GH (mostly used by highwaymen and effete nobles for duelling purposes...not very efficent weapons).
As to the Rary/Robilar debate, I have always disreagrded that whole debacle. In my heart of hearts, I felt since I first read that, it was a stab at Gary and Rob both by T$R...the similiarity of Gary=Rary in name and Rob's PC Robilar...the evil ones ran off from Greyhawk City (TSR) to stew in the desert.
As to Chatdemon, lighten up and chill. I find it irritating in the extreme that you publicly castigate Rob for not preferring 3e and then admitting teh same thing yourself.
Anyway, a bit long-winded, but Go, Rob, Go!
Oh, and a hearty and sincere, "Thank You!" to Erik for having the forethought to extend the olive branch to Gary and Rob.
Tony
Originally posted by bogomil
And to the other poster who mentioned Dragonsfoot: let's not start this stupid game of categorizing posters by faction; we all game, and that's all ye need to know.
Indeed. Tribalism is sinister and divisive enough without people fanning its flames deliberately. Trying to exclude people who like the work of a setting's creator best from a board discussing that setting is rude and inane.
Originally posted by bogomil
Exactly; the fact that we have two undisputed masters of the genre back and better than ever is the first (and last point) in the entire argument
This very thread is evidence that there is in fact a dispute over that "fact", and if Rob's plans for Robilar are any indication, I would venture that he is not actually "better than ever", indeed far from it.
And to the other poster who mentioned Dragonsfoot: let's not start this stupid game of categorizing posters by faction; we all game, and that's all ye need to know.
Ah, but in Greyhawk circles, those categorizations do ring true 9 times out of 10. The "Rob and Gary rule, everything after drools!" mentality, with no substantiation, is embraced on certain forums, and I agree with Iksander, it's not welcome in the community at large.
Back up your argument. Make your case. Risk making a fool of yourself, but please, take your tired platitudes back to where they are welcome.
Originally posted by Darth_Kjeran
As to Chatdemon, lighten up and chill. I find it irritating in the extreme that you publicly castigate Rob for not preferring 3e and then admitting teh same thing yourself.
Don't mischaracterize my statements. I never knocked Rob for not liking 3e. Anyone who knows me knows my dislike for that edition. I knocked him for kissing 3e fans on one cheek and slapping them on the other.
No, I don't like 3e, but I don't sit around blowing sunshine up 3e fans' wahoos trying to get them to buy my latest product after building a documentable record of trashing their game.
Originally posted by Darth_Kjeran
As to the Robilar question: endless speculation based on one sentence is meaningless. It is in the hands of professionals. If Erik likes Rob's story, it'll get published. If not, it won't.
Endless speculation? huh?
If you'll take the time to go back and actually read this entire thread, you'll find that in the quotes cited by Maria/Despotrix, Rob lays out quite clearly his intended storyline for the "real" Robilar.
There's no speculation going on here at all, this is a response by myself and a few others to a statement made by Rob about his intended development of Greyhawk.
Isn't that what this forum is for?
Originally posted by chatdemon
This very thread is evidence that there is in fact a dispute over that "fact", and if Rob's plans for Robilar are any indication, I would venture that he is not actually "better than ever", indeed far from it.
Why don't you stop trashing people and get your own self published, then you'd be in a better position to criticize others and, as you say, "make a fool of yourself," something which I suspect wouldn't be all that difficult for you. But instead of stepping up, you man some unofficial Greyhawk fansite and hurl feces at others. Yeah, you're a real industry player, Chatdemon, so until you wow us with your own works of splendor, I would suggest you crawl back into your own dark, bitter hole.
Originally posted by chatdemon
This very thread is evidence that there is in fact a dispute over that "fact"
Wrong again, dude. 95% of this thread praises Rob's past, present, and future accomplishments (it gets to you, doesn't it?). Otherwise, you account for the rest, which stops far short of a majority.
Nice try.
Originally posted by chatdemon
[b]Don't mischaracterize my statements. I never knocked Rob for not liking 3e. Anyone who knows me knows my dislike for that edition. I knocked him for kissing 3e fans on one cheek and slapping them on the other.
No, I don't like 3e, but I don't sit around blowing sunshine up 3e fans' wahoos trying to get them to buy my latest product after building a documentable record of trashing their game.
Once again am I to be attacked by Chatdemon. Both of your assertions are false. Why must you continually make patently false statements? For the record, I do not like 3e or its latest version as much as I do 1e. I have stated my reasons for this elsewhere and at different times. These statements reflect the quality of the game compared to my preferences and do not attack individuals or groups who play it.
Further, I was approached by Erik Mona to do Maure Castle and am not blowing sunshine up anyones posterior. The idea of this project, which you obviously find fault with, was to bridge gaps between all 'Hawkers, not make more. Some things just die hard, I guess.
We should keep this a civil exchange, Chatdemon. So I ask you now to relent from your continued personal attacks against me.
Just a nudge. I don't want to make more posts like I just made, above, that's all; and I don't feel that this type of topic deserves such treatment, but should be an exploration of well-reasoned opinions and creativity, that is, the good parts which have already been posted.
Now, back to the dialogue.
Rob made mention of ideas and I have been reading all these posts about people not wanting clones or thinking that something will be contrary to already published materials but as others have said this is fantasy and anything is possible. Even getting a bad rap when somebody is innocent. It happens in the real world and I have heard it many times that truth is stranger than fiction. Don't get me wrong with my truth statement, I know Robilar and all the Circle of 8 are not real people.
But I was thinking. From the brief readings I have found via the internet, Gazetteer and City of Greyhawk box. The entire Circle of 8 seems to be some pretty seasoned dudes. So this is one idea I came up with and hope I don't catch a big pile of flack for it.
Maybe, just maybe, during one of their adventures, Robilar and maybe a few others got tainted or effected by an artifact, apparition, person, historical site and were completely unaware of it. Just reading from the Maure Castle adventure in #112 I see evidence of the Circle of 8 not figuring everything out. (If you want the actual example I speak of just ask me, but i don't want to spoil anything for anybody.)
Taking this into consideration, Robilar may honestly have done what he did in RtT but not intentionally or at least the part of him that wouldn't do it was no longer in control. I am playing in a campaign right now where my character is neck deep in something that he innocently stepped into and as of only recently has figured out. Now my 7th level ranger can't stand in the shadow of Robilar and by no means do i try to set them at an even playing field. Just want everyone to know that was just an example.
Having said this, I want to commend Rob and Gary for creating a great dungeon with the new Maure Castle adventure. I could see my characters cringing as i read it. And I would also like to thank all involved in them doing that Maure project. I look forward to whatever comes out for Greyhawk. Not just the Robilar, Rary story/ adventure or whatever form it takes but anthing. I already am setting money aside for the 4 part map series in the fall.
I hope i didn't insult or step on anybody's toes. But I think even the 8+ historical characters in that group could have honestly missed something.
Okay, I have gone out on a limb. I would love to hear the trumpets or at least a calm silence but be gentle if the guillotine is gonna fall.
The "Rob and Gary rule, everything after drools!" mentality, with no substantiation, is embraced on certain forums...
Sorry. Thin and rubbery though I may be, I'd hate to be an inadvertent troll. I confess: I haven't actually played D&D in twenty-two years. (For those old enough to remember, there was a time when "D&D" was *not* synonomous with "socially maladjusted 14-year olds" in the public mind. Normal adults played the game. I swear it's true.)
But I have to say: Rob and Gary (...and Dave Arneson and Lawrence Schick and Dave Trampier and...) really DID produce work that was smarter, more imaginative and more structured than anything I've seen since.
I'm not sure if obsessively venerating the original writers (a la Dragonsfoot.org) is healthy, but maintaining that all "official Greyhawk" material is equally "canonical" seems a lot like treating "The Phantom Menace" as equally "canonical" with the original trilogy. People who do so might want to check out the highly canonical "Other Voices," an album recorded by the Doors *after* the death of Jim Morrison.
D.
Originally posted by Woesinger
Rob wrote:
"Well, (Deep breath). Listen everyone. I hate RtT
and will not write around/in/out-of-it. Robilar would NEVER have attacked Mordenkainen & Co8, but in fact was a good friend. Mordenkainen saved his life for pete's sake in the Journey to the City of the Gods!"
Ah, but Rob - he didn't attack Mordenkainen - he attacked Tenser and Otiluke...
And at this, all we know about what happened is based on the word of Bigby, who "claimed that their assailant had been their one-time ally, Rary, member of the Circle of Eight." (LGG p.38) Is Bigby's word to be trusted as gospel by everyone? This member of the Circle of Eight that has had frequent contact with the forces of the Scarlet Brotherhood (LGJ #0).
So, posit this... Rary and Robilar learn of someone else's potential betrayals at the signing of the Pact that ended the Greyhawk wars, and decided to set their magical traps to catch it. Tenser and Otiluke learn from "someone" that there is mischief happening in the treaty chambers. They walk in on Rary and Robilar in the midst of this trap laying at the treaty site, who knows what is said, but maybe Rary knows that Tenser and Otiluke walking in on him means that he himself has been betrayed...
While the battle is raging, Rary and Robilar are kicking butt, Bigby then shows up... joins the fray on who knows what side... but he somehow survives. Per LGG p. 38, "When the smoke cleared, two archmages, Tenser and Otiluke, lay dead." Rary and Robilar then heel-toe it out of there to wipe out clones of the dead archmages... but don't finish off Bigby or get his clones? Huh...
And Tenser is restored, when his missed clone and Jallarzi are rescued from Tuerny's grasp, but doesn't go after Rary when he comes back?
What if it was Bigby that actually slayed Tenser and Otiluke, while telling the world that Rary and Robilar did the dead? That Rary and Robilar wiped out the clones because Bigby convinced them that Tenser and Otiluke were the ones who were going to foil the treaty signing, and that wiping out the clones would prevent the signing from being foiled. Rary and Robilar finish the deed, only to learn that Mordenkainen believes that Rary (and Robilar) were behind it all. With all of Greyhawk and the survivors on the Circle on their tail, Rary and Robilar flee for safety.
Maybe Robilar skipped the last Tenser clone when he learned that he was taken by Bigby.
Now that Tenser is back, what the heck has he been doing anyway? Wouldn't it shake things up if it was learned that Tenser was sighted in the Bright Desert, chatting friendly things up with Rary and Robilar? And Rary is pretty unfriendly towards the Scarlet Sign, maybe he has a good reason to not like them...
Now there is a little bit of making lemonade out of lemons...
Regards,
Eric Anondson
Again, it speaks more of the person than the action itself.
Originally posted by sedrorovin murghurobag
An extreme adherence to canon says more about the person criticizing any effort to change it than it does the creativity put into moving the camapign forward, albeit in a new direction. We have already had several instances in which canon was grossly reworked for the sake of creativity/revision, but why should a person's efforts to rewrite portions of Greyhawk be greeted with such hostility?
Again, it speaks more of the person than the action itself.
While I agree with your subtle if psychological interpretation of a canon-obsessed individual, I can't help but look on this post as sinking to his level (with personal attacks), however oblique it may be. In other words, I think we should respect the topic of this thread and stay on course. I have much more to say in praise of Dungeon 112 and I'd like to keep the thread going as long as possible.
Originally posted by bogomil
Why don't you stop trashing people and get your own self published, then you'd be in a better position to criticize others and, as you say, "make a fool of yourself," something which I suspect wouldn't be all that difficult for you. But instead of stepping up, you man some unofficial Greyhawk fansite and hurl feces at others. Yeah, you're a real industry player, Chatdemon, so until you wow us with your own works of splendor, I would suggest you crawl back into your own dark, bitter hole.
I don't want to get involved between you and Chatdemon but I would ask that you not say "some unofficial Greyhawk fansite" in that apparently derogatory tone, its an insult to the people who put in the effort to share what they've wrote for free. Also, since when did we have to write something to pass judgement on other's writing? I've never made a movie but I'll stand behind the opinion that Gigli was terrible, and I shouldn't have to film my own J.Lo and Ben Afleck movie to say that. So the "put up or shut up" attitude doesn't hold much weight with me I guess.
Originally posted by bogomil
I agree, Rob. This is a thread of ideas, not broad-siding others' contributions to Greyhawk. It's just that I hate to see people unjustly trash the work of others, hence my over-heated responses.
I hate seeing people trash the work of others too...you know, like Rob did to the writers of RtT.
Rob
Cheers!
Rob
Originally posted by Druixin
I'm not sure if obsessively venerating the original writers (a la Dragonsfoot.org) is healthy, but maintaining that all "official Greyhawk" material is equally "canonical"
I have never made that claim. As I stated earlier in this thread, I don't use RtT as written, and like a lot of others here and around, I don't use other products. For me, Scarlet Brotherhood is ignored, as are the usuals like Gargoyle and Puppets.
I'm all for revising the true story of Robilar and Rary and the treachery, but as I have said repeatedly here, I expect it to be revised in a manner that is respectful to the existing canon/consistency of the setting instead of just smugly ignoring what has been written in the last 15 years.
Originally posted by ZayeneII
Further, I was approached by Erik Mona to do Maure Castle and am not blowing sunshine up anyones posterior. The idea of this project, which you obviously find fault with, was to bridge gaps between all 'Hawkers, not make more. Some things just die hard, I guess.
Then I only have one question:
Why, in the context of announcing the Maure Castle project on your forum, did you feel the need to throw in this comment?
Originally posted by ZayeneII
Do not get me wrong. I do not favor the FTA changes and feel that Greyhawk should have had its history left untampered with.
Everyone there knows your preference, and if you'll review the thread from which that quote comes, you'll see that I was even agreeing with your users (even, believe it or not, Gene Weigel, who I have a long, long history of disagreeing about everything with.) about the sad fact that the MC project would be 3e and not the 1e that most fans of MFA played.
I find no fault with the MC project, and still having not reviewed the issue, have no negative (or positive, to be fair) commentary to offer. I also have no issues with Rob's return to Greyhawk development. I do, otoh, see some of the comments made both here and on Rob's forum as disrespectful to fans of the "in between years" GH, and it'd be wise to remember that we, those fans, are the only reason there is a GH left to write for.
I also find it rather amusing, putting Rob himself aside for a moment, most of the attacks on me here in this thread completely neglect addressing the points Im making (or at least trying to make) and focus only on "how dare you question Rob!?!"
Originally posted by Scoti Garbidis
So this is one idea I came up with and hope I don't catch a big pile of flack for it.
And this is exactly the point I was trying to make earlier. Rob went the easy route and said, "Stuff that load of bunkem, he was a clone!" To me, that's just lazy and unimaginative. It takes no effort on his part and does away with a storyline he doesn't like, just because he doesn't like it. It's selfish and smacks of haughtiness, because I assure you that were he anyone else (except maybe EGG), he wouldn't attempt such a bold and over-riding stroke, and would attempt to work within the accepted material, because no matter whether you like or dislike (and personally I disliked RtT for pretty much the same reasons Rob does) the work, it IS accepted material and canon. It matters not whether X number of fans don't use it or don't accept it as canon, it IS canon, that is what you have to work with as a professional writer, and that is what you SHOULD work with as a professional writer.
Just dismissing everything that has come before is NOT the calling card of a professional writer.
But, Scoti, I don't think this is the thread to be discussing your ideas as it will just get washed out by the background noise. Start another thread or discuss your ideas at the Greytalk chat or write-up an apocryphal version that expands and explains the actions of Robilar and Rary in a cool and imaginative way and post it somewhere where it will get the attention it deserves.
Originally posted by Druixin
Sorry. Thin and rubbery though I may be, I'd hate to be an inadvertent troll. I confess: I haven't actually played D&D in twenty-two years. (For those old enough to remember, there was a time when "D&D" was *not* synonomous with "socially maladjusted 14-year olds" in the public mind. Normal adults played the game. I swear it's true.)
I know. I'm the youngest in my group and I'm 28. We're all *gasp*shock*horror* responsible, normal adults! Well, at least the others are, I'm a bit whacky I think but then I'm the DM so I get extra leeway :D
Originally posted by Druixin
But I have to say: Rob and Gary (...and Dave Arneson and Lawrence Schick and Dave Trampier and...) really DID produce work that was smarter, more imaginative and more structured than anything I've seen since.
In your opinion. As much as I like some of the older adventures, they weren't very 'smart', or particularly imaginative or that well structured. I think ten times the amount of effort and imagination goes into the average Dungeon adventure because the standards are so much higher these days than they ever were and the systems for building adventures are much more established and adhered to. Against the Giants is a fun module and there is a lot of room to develop politics and intrigue around it, but in and of itself it's not particularly imaginative... I mean... it revolves primarily around the idea of, "Big giant, stomp, get treasure, bigger giant, stomp, get treasure..." with only a very broad meta-plot added on, and even then, that was added on LATER and not by EGG. I think that is indicative of most of EGG's modules. They're pretty straightforward and simple and consist primarily of, "Go here, hack, get treasure," which whilst fun and done in interesting ways, is not particularly imaginative and the only real structure to such adventures is based on a very vague idea of power level.
Todays adventure modules are a whole league above the older ones in terms of complexity, structure and imagination. And they have to be. They're competing with the fond memories of bygone eras and misspent youths. If you don't believe me, try submitting something to Dungeon...
Originally posted by Druixin
I'm not sure if obsessively venerating the original writers (a la Dragonsfoot.org) is healthy, but maintaining that all "official Greyhawk" material is equally "canonical" seems a lot like treating "The Phantom Menace" as equally "canonical" with the original trilogy. People who do so might want to check out the highly canonical "Other Voices," an album recorded by the Doors *after* the death of Jim Morrison.
It is. Canon is essentially defined by officialdom. It has to do with priests in robes in Rome who go about burning everything that makes them look bad and printing all the stuff that makes them and their religion look good. TSR/WotC is the church, in this instance, and the lowly writers are mere peons who work for the greater good of the faith. Whether you like it or not, canon is not what you like, or what I like, but what the big uns say we should like. Does that mean I have to like it or lump it? No, my own campaign is hardly canonical, but as a professional writer, were I to submit something, I would work within the body of canon because that is what I have to work with and I don't have the luxury of dismissing everything that has come before.
I think it is quite clear that Rob is being given a privaledge that only he and EGG would enjoy in this particular instance. Equate it to the pope writing the new testament. No one else would get away with it.
Canon is essentially defined by officialdom. It has to do with priests in robes in Rome who go about burning everything that makes them look bad and printing all the stuff that makes them and their religion look good. TSR/WotC is the church, in this instance, and the lowly writers are mere peons who work for the greater good of the faith. Whether you like it or not, canon is not what you like, or what I like, but what the big uns say we should like. Does that mean I have to like it or lump it? No, my own campaign is hardly canonical, but as a professional writer, were I to submit something, I would work within the body of canon because that is what I have to work with and I don't have the luxury of dismissing everything that has come before.
I think it is quite clear that Rob is being given a privaledge that only he and EGG would enjoy in this particular instance. Equate it to the pope writing the new testament. No one else would get away with it.
First off, it's a bad analogy and one that needs to be put to rest immediately. There many forms of canon in the world, many of which are selected through a scholarly, democratic process. Take the canon of literature, for example. No robes there, unless of course you're talking about academic robes, but even then, it is a process whereby the most able and educated negotiate with works that have survived centuries, distilling their brilliance for those who wish to learn from the finest writers history offers.
Hardly a conspiracy.
And why would anyone feel bound to obey a timeline, anyway? Sure, it's there to establish continuity, one which many adhere to, but this is fantasy, for pete's sake. Even if it weren't, we would still have to remember the limitless freedom we are granted in writing. Look around you. A truly talented and imaginative writer does not necessarily feel bound by the works of his predecessors, nor the critical community that has grown up around them, otherwise how else would we have seen the creative departures of the last five-hundreds years? Every great instance of canon has been a bold act of individuality, something majestic in its vision and artifice, and that's why each is celebrated today. And yet every truly innovative effort of that period was greeted with slurs and jeers from people like yourself, people who wanted to "play by the rules," people incapable of thinking outside the box. To be frank, it sounds as if you are a prisoner of your own self-imposed limitations.
You're only a peon if you believe you are one.
I am looking forward to more of these adventures.
And yet every truly innovative effort of that period was greeted with slurs and jeers from people like yourself, people who wanted to "play by the rules," people incapable of thinking outside the box.
I think a few people on this thread, including chatdemon who is getting most of the flak here, already presented some highly imaginative outside the box ideas to the RtT mess in order to rectify Robilar's image. I know i'm an amateur writer, but if I were on this project, I'd be taking notes.
Originally posted by emperor norton
First off, it's a bad analogy and one that needs to be put to rest immediately.
It is the best analogy available, frankly. Far better that a "canon of literature", what is that anyway? The next best anology of canon here would be the "canon of history".
Originally posted by emperor norton
There many forms of canon in the world, many of which are selected through a scholarly, democratic process.
With the emphasis on "scholarly" over "democratic"... and then the "democratic" part comes well after the "scholarly" part was done to its limit. If the "democratic" part is just to let in any one who just wants to make his mark without care to "scholarship" it will be rightly ridiculed.
Originally posted by emperor norton
A truly talented and imaginative writer does not necessarily feel bound by the works of his predecessors, nor the critical community that has grown up around them, otherwise how else would we have seen the creative departures of the last five-hundreds years?
Rob has the freedom to write "the true and accurate" adventures of Robilar and ignore everything that came after the City of Greyhawk boxed set if he wishes. The Oerth Journal surely is taking submissions. If he wants to get published by Erik Mona in Dungeon magazine, he can't ignore the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer.
Originally posted by emperor norton
Every great instance of canon has been a bold act of individuality, something majestic in its vision and artifice, and that's why each is celebrated today.
Some of those exercises in "vision and artifice" were the author pooping in the garden and thinking they were being majestic and free, and that's why particularly obnoxious bits are ridiculed by others. The rest of the tenders of the garden have worked in the bad stuff to become fertilizer to new ideas, despite the memory of the act the left the feces.
If folks are getting irate it is because it sounds like someone is telegraphing an intent on ripping up some of the new garden that has grown up that many now enjoy just so he can clear a spot and leave his own, and say "That should have been there all along". He doesn't have to. There is some new beauty there to be worked around, and it is the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer.
Regards,
Eric Anondson
Originally posted by mortellan
I think a few people on this thread, including chatdemon who is getting most of the flak here, already presented some highly imaginative outside the box ideas to the RtT mess in order to rectify Robilar's image. I know i'm an amateur writer, but if I were on this project, I'd be taking notes.
Which is also the point I was trying to make. Sticking to canon is the MOST imaginative thing to do because it is a challenge to work within limitations. There is no challenge in dismissing all that has come before and making up your own stuff.
Originally posted by Eric Anondson
What Eric Anondson said.
Yeah, what he said.
...] publish a totally different treatment of Greyhawk that ignored any former intent of the creation to that point.
Ignored -any- former intent? Are other authors supposed to be mind readers? A totally different treatment would be if Iuz was really a woman, Greyhawk City was ruled by tinker gnomes and the Great Kingdom was renamed the Good Kingdom. Hindsight is 20/20.
"Myself and other fans who never adopted the spiteful post-Gary treatment of Greyhawk!"
Nothing personal GT, but spiteful-schmiteful.
How is the collapse of the Great Kingdom, the fall of Tenh or Rary vaping two of his colleagues a personal attack on anyone? Do y'all really imagine Carl Sargent waking each morning, sitting down to the FtA manuscript and cackling evily to himself: "How am I going to really annoy EGG today?"
Reality check, people! It's a *game*.
The real world changes and so did the World of Greyhawk. Sometimes the world changes in ways we don't like. Ditto the WoG (Tenh being reduced to so much prime parking space in LG for example). That's verisimillitude not spite.
If in 594 CY, the Flanaess was still embroiled in the 570's style of inconsequential skirmishing where nothing really changed politically, then that would be unrealistic and frankly a little dull, and I doubt I'd be on this forum spouting on about GH today.
Like it or loathe it, FtA gave the world a kick in the rear and set in motion the fascinating, but largely static array of realms, factions and playing pieces described in the Folio and '83 boxed set.
If that's spite, then more spite please.
P.
So basically what it boils down to is two adults acting quite childish in order to gratify their own egos. Oh well, I guess I might act like that if I had my own cult too...
Where's Waldorf when we really need him?
Originally posted by Woesinger
Do y'all really imagine Carl Sargent waking each morning, sitting down to the FtA manuscript and cackling evily to himself: "How am I going to really annoy EGG today?"
Reality check, people! It's a *game*.
P.
That's only what THEY want you to think, but all of us *true* Greyhawk fans know the truth, the truth that Sargent stalked EGG for three days, stenciled his shape onto various pieces of paper, and threw those papers all over EGG's yard just to get to him. Oh we know, and you won't convince me otherwise Woesinger! In fact, that support of Sargent...wait a minute, your on his side! How dare you side with the demon himself!
*note* I'm not serious...
Originally posted by Coldpenguin625
they're writing for the setting again and what it seems to me is that they want to disregard anything THEY didn't write as a way to get back at the writers who published From the Ashes, Rary the Traitor, etc.
Actually, Rob isn't changing anythng about Rary apparently...it's Robilar that he's working on. And he's not disreagrding what happened, but merely stating that it wasn't really Robilar...maybe it was a doppleganger, a clone gone bad, a cousin who looks like him, a polymorphed henchman of Rary's....the point is we don't know what's going on in Rob's head...all we have is a handful of paragraphs scattered about the Infobahn.
(Please note that I was using hyperbole earlier, CD when I said we only have a sentence.)
Endless specualation really is pointless...the manuscript isn't even written yet. Trust me on this...I'm a 2nd circle memebr of the Cult of Gygax. There is but one true Greyhak; Gary is the one god and Rob is his prophet, amen!
--for those of us around at the time, the fact that Greyhawk got the shaft was pretty obvious with the release of WG7--as opposed to WG5 or WG6... No hindsight required.
Oh yes GH was shafted, no doubt. It would still be six feet under if not for the people currently authoring material. Good to see from your latest posts that you aren't wholly dismissive of post-Wars writings.
Actually, Rob isn't changing anythng about Rary apparently...it's Robilar that he's working on. And he's not disreagrding what happened, but merely stating that it wasn't really Robilar...maybe it was a doppleganger, a clone gone bad, a cousin who looks like him, a polymorphed henchman of Rary's....the point is we don't know what's going on in Rob's head...all we have is a handful of paragraphs scattered about the Infobahn.
I am going by a short sentence Rob used on this very thread: I hate RtT and will not write around/in/out-of-it.
This to me means disregard for the fake Robilar material, and that it will be our job to explain the discrepencies for our campaigns should we use his writings. For him(Robilar) to be extricated from any association with RtT he would have to be set somewhere far from events of the day or even in a friendlier time period if I may offer some suggestions.
Originally posted by emperor norton
And why would anyone feel bound to obey a timeline, anyway? Sure, it's there to establish continuity, one which many adhere to, but this is fantasy, for pete's sake. Even if it weren't, we would still have to remember the limitless freedom we are granted in writing. Look around you. A truly talented and imaginative writer does not necessarily feel bound by the works of his predecessors, nor the critical community that has grown up around them, otherwise how else would we have seen the creative departures of the last five-hundreds years? Every great instance of canon has been a bold act of individuality, something majestic in its vision and artifice, and that's why each is celebrated today. And yet every truly innovative effort of that period was greeted with slurs and jeers from people like yourself, people who wanted to "play by the rules," people incapable of thinking outside the box. To be frank, it sounds as if you are a prisoner of your own self-imposed limitations.
Comments like this have convinced me that the term "canon" only hopelessly confuses the issue. There seem to be as many definitions of the term "canon" as there are versions of Greyhawk - i.e., every DM has (at least) one. As suggested earlier in this thread, "continuity" is a better term, since it better describes its goal: to make later products consistent with what came before. However, in the comments quoted above, continuity is mentioned and cursorily dismissed, as if unimportant.
There may be a place for innovative alternate histories or "what if?" stories, but it is wrong to dismiss the importance of continuity. Can you imagine if there had been no "Greyhawk Wars" box set, but "From the Ashes" had been released anyway? We would all have been sitting there, scratching our heads and asking, "The ashes of what?" Or what if a product were released in which it was declared that Mordenkainen is a little girl with pigtails, and the Circle of Eight is actually headed by Iuz? (And then that whole innovation is completely ignored in the next product?)
Moreover, it seems hypocritical to deride anyone who would dare suggest that continuity must be acknowledged and to solely champion works of complete individuality. "Slurs and jeers," indeed. It is arguably a greater feat of creativity to mold your creative vision to fit what has already been established for the setting. (If you want complete creative freedom, then write for your own setting; it should not be expected when writing for an established setting.)
Adherence to continuity need not be slavish. Rary need not actually be a traitor merely because it has been said so. But if he's not going to be a traitor, then the explanation needs to fit around what has been established. There have been some good ideas offered here, and I'm sure that a truly talented and imaginative writer could think of more.
Originally posted by Brom Blackforge
Moreover, it seems hypocritical to deride anyone who would dare suggest that continuity must be acknowledged and to solely champion works of complete individuality. "Slurs and jeers," indeed. It is arguably a greater feat of creativity to mold your creative vision to fit what has already been established for the setting. (If you want complete creative freedom, then write for your own setting; it should not be expected when writing for an established setting.)
I'm quite positive that I said pretty much exactly this already. I swear, nobody ever actually LISTENS to what I say.
Originally posted by Brom Blackforge
Adherence to continuity need not be slavish. Rary need not actually be a traitor merely because it has been said so. But if he's not going to be a traitor, then the explanation needs to fit around what has been established. There have been some good ideas offered here, and I'm sure that a truly talented and imaginative writer could think of more.
Again, exactly what I said. There are plenty of reasons why he (and Robilar) could've done what he did without dismissing the whole thing as out of character.
http://www.silven.com/adnd.asp?case=show&id=363
At times, posters have brought this thread back to where it started, in commenting on Dungeon #112. I personally liked it for many of the reasons that others liked it: interesting bad guys, good story arc, excellect hooks, etc.
However, this thread has been more interesting to me because of the varying opinions and the emotional attachments that posters have to different aspects of the world, created by EGG and evolved through the work of so many people.
I, for one, don't like some of the products and storylines published by TSR/WoTC under the Greyhawk banner, but I do agree that the entire body of work after 1985 should not be dismissed out of hand when writing something new for the setting that will be published. And I acknowledge that Greyhawk survived countless possible destructions through the decades only through the dedication and hard work of people within and outside the company who felt strongly about it
Having said that, I still do not see the point of worrying now about what Rob will do to Robilar. As stated above, it seems that a number of posters are ready to imaginatively reinterpret events from published materials and others find these changes acceptable. Rob would surely do the same with the Robilar character. Yes, his philosophy (and possibly political motivations, though I hate to be that cynical) may be different, but his take on the character and how he reinterprets events may be as enjoyable as the material presented in Dungeon #112.
Originally posted by Iksander
I'm quite positive that I said pretty much exactly this already. I swear, nobody ever actually LISTENS to what I say.
What was that?
Seriously, the thread has over 250 replies. I'd be willing to bet that everything in it has been said more than once. That doesn't mean it can't be said again.
Originally posted by Brom Blackforge
There may be a place for innovative alternate histories or "what if?" stories, but it is wrong to dismiss the importance of continuity.
No it's not.
Originally posted by Brom Blackforge
Can you imagine if there had been no "Greyhawk Wars" box set, but "From the Ashes" had been released anyway?
If you really think that the suggestion that authors not feel constrained by continuity includes the suggestion that they fill their works with non sequitur & half explained ideas, then it'll be hard to carry on intelligent discourse with you.
Of phreakin' course From the Ashes would have to include extra explaination if Greyhawk Wars had never been published! That's not about maintaining continuity. That's about communicating clearly.
Originally posted by Brom Blackforge
Or what if a product were released in which it was declared that Mordenkainen is a little girl with pigtails, and the Circle of Eight is actually headed by Iuz?
Cool! That's going to have to be a pretty darn interesting product if it manages such changes & is successful.
Originally posted by Brom Blackforge
(And then that whole innovation is completely ignored in the next product?)
(As it should be.)
Originally posted by Brom Blackforge
It is arguably a greater feat of creativity to mold your creative vision to fit what has already been established for the setting.
I actually agree with this, in part. I think being able to work within a structure is an exercise in creativity.
I also wouldn't want all poetry to be sonnets. As much as I think creating your own meter & rhyme scheme--or foregoing both altogether--is nigh cheating, there are many poems I'm happy to have known even if the poet "cheated".
Indeed, just as structure can be a catalyst for creativity, it can also become a crutch.
Just because I am riled by the call for adherence to continuity or canon doesn't mean that I think continuity must likewise be actively avoided. I want authors to have to freedom to follow or ignore continuity/canon as their muse dictates.
In the final analysis, however, I have seen no benefit to the actual game from this concern with continuity. Indeed, I have seen campaigns benefit to huge extent from combining works that were never intended to be used together.
Originally posted by RobertFisher
If you really think that the suggestion that authors not feel constrained by continuity includes the suggestion that they fill their works with non sequitur & half explained ideas, then it'll be hard to carry on intelligent discourse with you.
Well, given how quickly these kinds of discussions tend to degenerate, I'm not sure that an intelligent discourse is possible on these boards, but I'm game.
Of phreakin' course From the Ashes would have to include extra explaination if Greyhawk Wars had never been published! That's not about maintaining continuity. That's about communicating clearly.
Actually, it's both. If you're not concerned about continuity, then you don't need to explain how the situation came to be. The explanation is an effort to fit the material into the existing continuity.
I think being able to work within a structure is an exercise in creativity.
I also wouldn't want all poetry to be sonnets. As much as I think creating your own meter & rhyme scheme--or foregoing both altogether--is nigh cheating, there are many poems I'm happy to have known even if the poet "cheated".
Indeed, just as structure can be a catalyst for creativity, it can also become a crutch.
Well, not all poems should be sonnets, true, just like not all products need be Greyhawk. However, if you are called upon to write a sonnet, then there are rules to follow. And if you are called upon to write for Greyhawk, there are also rules to follow. No one minds if those rules are "cheated" a bit, provided the end result is good enough. A truly skillful writer knows when the rules can be bent or broken.
Just because I am riled by the call for adherence to continuity or canon doesn't mean that I think continuity must likewise be actively avoided. I want authors to have to freedom to follow or ignore continuity/canon as their muse dictates.
In the final analysis, however, I have seen no benefit to the actual game from this concern with continuity. Indeed, I have seen campaigns benefit to huge extent from combining works that were never intended to be used together.
What you do with your home campaign is completely different from what WotC/TSR does or did with Greyhawk. I am not advocating that every home game adopt a slavish adherence to official published lore. All I am saying is that, if you write an official Greyhawk product, you need to acknowledge continuity. If it's not official, do what you want. There is a great variety of speculative and apocryphal stuff on fan sites, and almost certainly more that never makes it onto the Web. That's not the kind of material that needs to fit the existing continuity, and I'm not suggesting otherwise.
One thing in this thread struck me (beyond the flames), which is the discussion of canon. These boards are for the discussion of Greyhawk. While there are many views of what is and what isn't Greyhawk, there's room enough for all.
Yes, even WG7 Castle Greyhawk. ;)
Take 5, guys, and then let's get back to discussing this great setting.