Have you seen...? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Have you seen...?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
boz_shulun
May 22, 2004 22:29:56 Has anyone seen what has been going on over at the Forgotten Realms boards?

I’ve noticed that the WizO’s have been locking down threads left and right.

Not wanting to get into the full mess of it, I will just say this. The powers that be have determined that discussion of certain topics is verboten.

My questions are…

Are we, here at the Greyhawk boards, that much more civil that we can have discussions about aspects of the world that we love without it deteriorating into something akin to mud slinging?

Are the powers that be really not interested in what we are saying as opposed to what is said ‘over there’?

Is WizO Drake really out there? (just kidding)

Is it the fact that we don’t have 62 novels printed a year about Greyhawk keeping us from discussing the changes brought about by an author’s interpretation of the world?

What is truly the difference between that board and ours?

Is Boz Shulun going to be beaten with a wet noodle for bringing up an obviously sore subject (for examples please see the Forgotten Realms boards)?
#2
zombiegleemax
May 23, 2004 0:14:12 Dude, they're banning talking about Forgotten Realms novels.

Never question a good thing. You'll only jinx it. ;)
#3
mortellan
May 23, 2004 0:16:54 My sentiments exactly.

What I find interesting is that if everything in those novels is 'canon' then discussion of them should be fair game. They are just another 'supplement' in essence.

What I also wonder now is, if the novels were discussed elsewhere on these boards, would those threads be shut down as well? Or does it just apply to their specific boards?

Also, I see the FR board is unhappy with the Complete Warrior/Divine series for ripping off the FR's flavor. If they only knew...
#4
zombiegleemax
May 23, 2004 12:04:21 Precisely.

Mr. Kettle... meet Mr. Pot.
#5
eric_anondson
May 23, 2004 15:29:05 Well, Greyhawk hasn't really had novels that thrust changes upon the landscape since the Gord the Rogue novels. All of the Greyhawk novels that have been publishedsince then were simple novelizations of modules, where the author took the module and wrote up a story around it that amounted to a novelization of one party's encounters in that mod. The authors of the LGG even openly stated that the GH novels were considered non-canon for the setting.

FR seemed to have a nasty cycle where the world's timeline was actually advanced via the novels, as well as the accessories. This would entice fans to keep up with the novels to be abreast of the latest developments of the setting. Greyhawk novels (what little there were) never tried to do this. As far as I can tell, the Greyhawk setting was always advanced in the accessories and in the DM's background information in new modules... and lately the Living Greyhawk Journal articles.

That all said, the Dragonlance novels are also off-topic on the Dragonlance forum recently. Not long ago it wasn't, and in fact there was a dedicated DL-novels forum easily reached from the DL-RPG forum. That novels forum has seemingly disappeared.

For more info, check this post about the subject.

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=202310

Regards,
Eric Anondson
#6
Greyson
May 23, 2004 19:07:21 Dang. Some of those Forgotten Realms fans are angry little buggers at such a small issue. The way some of their acrimonious posts read you'd think that WotC went into their homes and stole from each of their personal piggy-banks.

I don't mind if campaign settings "borrow" from each other. I think it is good for the game if great ideas are shared amongst settings. I use Arcana Unearthed elements from Malhavoc Press in our home games, for example.

Mortellan said it best at the FR General Board. "It's about time FR gave something back." Or, something to that affect.

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I wish Greyhawk had the "problem" FR have - superfulous amounts of commerical merchandise!
#7
Argon
May 23, 2004 23:56:05 I'm no FR fan but it seems like someone has gotten a little too sensitive about discussion of novels on the FR boards. I thought these boards where places too discuss or offer our personal opinions on any game-like manner. The Wizo over on the FR boards seems to be having a hard time as well. It's hard to be the messenger for the powers that be. I don't know whether this is something that particular Wizo is for or not? But the fact that a company doesn't want any of their customers commenting on one of their product lines is beyond my comprehension.

I would think that any company would look at what their customers where saying and find ways too improve upon their features, products, or services to that end. I can understand removing a post that was biased, racist, or loaded with profanity. But really banning your customers from discussing anything negative about your products is really disturbing!
#8
princeofcincinnati
May 24, 2004 0:02:50 Im confused. Are the posters being rude or is WOTC censuring them?
#9
boz_shulun
May 24, 2004 0:45:54 Unfortunately, I got in on the very end of the whole thing so I am unsure. Something got some of the regulars fired up though. Several of the long timers of that board (and I am told… that some of them were authors of the novels themselves) jumped ship because of sour feelings. Most vowed never to return to the WOTC boards.

I too am disturbed and a little disappointed in the whole thing.
#10
faraer
May 24, 2004 13:43:59
Originally posted by mortellan
Also, I see the FR board is unhappy with the Complete Warrior/Divine series for ripping off the FR's flavor. If they only knew...

Plenty of 'them' know at least as well as you do. Please let's be free of this dreary, dreary partisanship.
#11
zombiegleemax
May 24, 2004 14:13:45 Yes, let's be more like our statesmen.
#12
boz_shulun
May 24, 2004 15:02:25
Originally posted by Faraer
Plenty of 'them' know at least as well as you do. Please let's be free of this dreary, dreary partisanship.

Why? Taking a stand for something that you believe in is much more commendable.

I respect someone who will take a side, even if it is in opposition to my way of thinking. Bi-partisan, middle-of-the-road, political correctness… it’s passé and gutless.
#13
faraer
May 25, 2004 10:06:08 Because it isn't a side, and the antipathy only exists in the imagination of the minority of pro-Greyhawk/anti-Realms partisans. It doesn't achieve anything for the World of Greyhawk, it discourages rather than encourages understanding, it makes Greyhawk fans (of whom I'm certainly one) look petty, paints Greyhawk authors in the same bad light, and it's a waste of effort and time.

In this case, I don't see much scope for argument. It's fine for the Realms to have taken up elements of AD&D, because that's what all home campaigns were supposed to do (or in 1977 was the only legitimate use of the Monster Manual monsters in the World of Greyhawk that hadn't been published?). It's fine for core AD&D to use elements from the Realms, as part of the general exchange (and as happened from some of Ed Greenwood's earliest Dragon articles). It's bad for people's work to be reprinted without credit.
#14
boz_shulun
May 25, 2004 11:12:03
Originally posted by Faraer
Because it isn't a side, and the antipathy only exists in the imagination of the minority of pro-Greyhawk/anti-Realms partisans. It doesn't achieve anything for the World of Greyhawk, it discourages rather than encourages understanding, it makes Greyhawk fans (of whom I'm certainly one) look petty, paints Greyhawk authors in the same bad light, and it's a waste of effort and time.

Antipathy will always exist when one group (usually the minority) feels slighted in their interests in favor of the interests of another group (usually a majority).

If you think that FR fans do not complain about mistreatment (real or perceived) then you need to look more closely at the overall point of this thread and the subjects on the FR board that it refers to. To suggest that GH fans shouldn’t complain and that FR fans are not partisan is silly and holier-than-thou.

In this case, I don't see much scope for argument. It's fine for the Realms to have taken up elements of AD&D, because that's what all home campaigns were supposed to do (or in 1977 was the only legitimate use of the Monster Manual monsters in the World of Greyhawk that hadn't been published?).

I totally agree. Home campaigns should take what they like from any inspiration and sourcebook that suits them.

It's fine for core AD&D to use elements from the Realms, as part of the general exchange (and as happened from some of Ed Greenwood's earliest Dragon articles).

My point (and the point of others) exactly. So why are they (and when I say ‘they’, I am referring to the small group of outspoken FR fans on the other board who do not represent all the intelligent and knowledgeable ones) complaining so much?

It's bad for people's work to be reprinted without credit.

Again I agree. But the ‘credit’ for the PrC s is a minor point made in that discussion.
#15
eric_anondson
May 25, 2004 17:35:46
Originally posted by Boz Shulun
If you think that FR fans do not complain about mistreatment (real or perceived) then you need to look more closely at the overall point of this thread and the subjects on the FR board that it refers to. To suggest that GH fans shouldn’t complain and that FR fans are not partisan is silly and holier-than-thou.

I just reread his comments a few times. Not once does he even a hint at claiming FR fans do not complain. To project onto others something they never say is a recipe for flames. As this is a Greyhawk forum, I only took his words to be exactly what they were, a chiding of Greyhawk-fans against well known (rightly or wrongly) ugly partisanship.

Originally posted by Boz Shulun
My point (and the point of others) exactly. So why are they (and when I say ‘they’, I am referring to the small group of outspoken FR fans on the other board who do not represent all the intelligent and knowledgeable ones) complaining so much?

I have not bothered to read the threads. Would someone care to sum up the points of complaint?

Regards,
Eric Anondson
#16
faraer
May 25, 2004 18:12:11 I was gonna bow out to avoid any dead-end argument, but...

Yes, Realms fan complain, sometimes rightfully, sometimes not, some are subject to pique, some are ignorant. If Wizards stopped publishing the Realms and gave all those slots to Greyhawk, some Realms fans would transfer their frustration and disappointment to the World of Greyhawk and its fans as if it (rather than the decision-makers) were to blame, and it would be just as stupid, irrational and counterproductive.

I think we know that the powers that be really aren't interested in this board compared to the Realms boards, because at present Greyhawk makes much less money for the company and no one at Wizards is much interested or invested in the setting. By and large I think this board is used by people who've seen the big Greyhawk controversies flare up, and deliberately hold off being provocative, or who don't know them, so it hasn't drawn major moderator attention.

Eric, there was just one thread where half a dozen people objected to a couple of Realms prestige classes being setting-stripped and published in the Complete Divine web enhancement as new content. Not a big thing. The big thing was the banning of discussion of novels (and of discussion of the banning of discussion of novels), which probably technically applies to this board as well.
#17
boz_shulun
May 25, 2004 18:47:03
Originally posted by Eric Anondson
I just reread his comments a few times. Not once does he even a hint at claiming FR fans do not complain. To project onto others something they never say is a recipe for flames. As this is a Greyhawk forum, I only took his words to be exactly what they were, a chiding of Greyhawk-fans against well known (rightly or wrongly) ugly partisanship.
Thank you. After reading and rereading the posts I realized my error. My post should not have put words in Faraer’s mouth. For that I apologize. My beef wasn’t with complaining but the overall feeling of resentment (or as Faraer put it, antipathy).

but…

Originally posted by Faraer
Because it isn't a side, and the antipathy only exists in the imagination of the minority of pro-Greyhawk/anti-Realms partisans.

…says that the antipathy if only one-way. That the hard feelings are only in the minds of zealot GH fans. That is wrong. There are plenty of passionate FR ‘purists’ who are up in arms about the use of ideas from the realms being available for core use. A point, as a GH fan, I find ridiculous. The realms have used things that were inherently GH for years and it wasn’t a crime. Now the tables have turned and there are those who are crying foul. When I voiced that opinion on the FR board (and other venues), I was chastised for it.
#18
faraer
May 25, 2004 18:53:10 Whatever the reasons for it, a sizeable contingent of Greyhawk fans 'hate' the Realms, and very few Realms fans have such strong negative feelings for Greyhawk (including few or none, I don't recall, of the half-dozen resentful people in that thread). The antipathy is largely, but not completely, one-sided.

[Edit: I.e., hard feelings about a subsidiary issue and antipathy (settled aversion or dislike) aren't the same.]
#19
boz_shulun
May 25, 2004 19:35:26 Edit:
insert...
1 obsolete : opposition in feeling
2 : settled aversion or dislike : DISTASTE
3 : an object of aversion
... for 'hard feelings'.
#20
lincoln_hills
May 25, 2004 20:40:19 I suppose the reason Forgotten Realms players usually don't "resent" Greyhawk players is pretty clear - they're busy enjoying THEIR setting. No doubt the more thoughtful among them are occasionally thankful to RP in a setting which receives the wholehearted support of its parent corporation. (Personally, I'd find it a nightmare to have to buy so many books all the time... then have to read 'em... just to keep up? St. Cuthbert defend me!)

While the more... adversarial... Greyhawk fans seem to feel that Forgotten Realms has stolen "fan support" from Oerth. Isn't true, I fear: while it's true that Oerth and Toril have more in common than most of TSR's fictional worlds, the two settings have very different appeals.

One might as well argue that Conan keeps stealing Aragorn's fan base.

(As for 'novel threads' getting blocked - well, nothing new about threads getting blocked. It's an unfortunate but sometimes necessary thing on these boards...)
#21
mortellan
May 25, 2004 21:30:51
(As for 'novel threads' getting blocked - well, nothing new about threads getting blocked. It's an unfortunate but sometimes necessary thing on these boards...)

This one hasn't been shut down yet. I wonder what would happen if I mention how I really enjoyed the Avatar Trilogy, the Moonshae series and the Crystal Shard. After those I sort of fell behind, way behind. :P
#22
Argon
May 26, 2004 0:50:35 Many of the WoTC Novels and even old TSR novels where not that good. Their are a few gems in the folds but for the most part better novels do exist. I don't know if it's the author forceing his story too be more game like or just ignoring certain aspects of the game world. But many of the novels published by Wotc and TSR where not of the best quality.

I like David Gemmell, his stories are not too over powering with quirkiness that is often found in fantasy writing's. Instead each story is a well supported piece of work that allows you too follow along regardless of where you entered.

The best game world novels ever where actually the Shadowrun series of novels. They make a fantasy high tech world work well. This is something I have run from in the past but this setting of novels brings joy to your eyes for having picked one up!
#23
boz_shulun
May 26, 2004 1:48:08 I agree, the Steve Kenson Shadowrun novels are some of my favs.

As for D&D/Fantasy, the Greyhawk module based novels were okay but could have been a lot better. Personally, I prefer the works of Glen Cook & Fritz Leiber (as well as Howard and Tolkien, of course).

I wonder how much structure is forced on authors who write novels for D&D (FR in particular). I enjoy some of them, but many come across as labored and generic in theme. Not to mention the blatant plugging of upcoming products.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 boz_shulun May 22, 2004 22:29:56	Has anyone seen what has been going on over at the Forgotten Realms boards? I’ve noticed that the WizO’s have been locking down threads left and right. Not wanting to get into the full mess of it, I will just say this. The powers that be have determined that discussion of certain topics is verboten. My questions are… Are we, here at the Greyhawk boards, that much more civil that we can have discussions about aspects of the world that we love without it deteriorating into something akin to mud slinging? Are the powers that be really not interested in what we are saying as opposed to what is said ‘over there’? Is WizO Drake really out there? (just kidding) Is it the fact that we don’t have 62 novels printed a year about Greyhawk keeping us from discussing the changes brought about by an author’s interpretation of the world? What is truly the difference between that board and ours? Is Boz Shulun going to be beaten with a wet noodle for bringing up an obviously sore subject (for examples please see the Forgotten Realms boards)?
#2 zombiegleemax May 23, 2004 0:14:12	Dude, they're banning talking about Forgotten Realms novels. Never question a good thing. You'll only jinx it. ;)
#3 mortellan May 23, 2004 0:16:54	My sentiments exactly. What I find interesting is that if everything in those novels is 'canon' then discussion of them should be fair game. They are just another 'supplement' in essence. What I also wonder now is, if the novels were discussed elsewhere on these boards, would those threads be shut down as well? Or does it just apply to their specific boards? Also, I see the FR board is unhappy with the Complete Warrior/Divine series for ripping off the FR's flavor. If they only knew...
#4 zombiegleemax May 23, 2004 12:04:21	Precisely. Mr. Kettle... meet Mr. Pot.
#5 eric_anondson May 23, 2004 15:29:05	Well, Greyhawk hasn't really had novels that thrust changes upon the landscape since the Gord the Rogue novels. All of the Greyhawk novels that have been publishedsince then were simple novelizations of modules, where the author took the module and wrote up a story around it that amounted to a novelization of one party's encounters in that mod. The authors of the LGG even openly stated that the GH novels were considered non-canon for the setting. FR seemed to have a nasty cycle where the world's timeline was actually advanced via the novels, as well as the accessories. This would entice fans to keep up with the novels to be abreast of the latest developments of the setting. Greyhawk novels (what little there were) never tried to do this. As far as I can tell, the Greyhawk setting was always advanced in the accessories and in the DM's background information in new modules... and lately the Living Greyhawk Journal articles. That all said, the Dragonlance novels are also off-topic on the Dragonlance forum recently. Not long ago it wasn't, and in fact there was a dedicated DL-novels forum easily reached from the DL-RPG forum. That novels forum has seemingly disappeared. For more info, check this post about the subject. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=202310 Regards, Eric Anondson
#6 Greyson May 23, 2004 19:07:21	Dang. Some of those Forgotten Realms fans are angry little buggers at such a small issue. The way some of their acrimonious posts read you'd think that WotC went into their homes and stole from each of their personal piggy-banks. I don't mind if campaign settings "borrow" from each other. I think it is good for the game if great ideas are shared amongst settings. I use Arcana Unearthed elements from Malhavoc Press in our home games, for example. Mortellan said it best at the FR General Board. "It's about time FR gave something back." Or, something to that affect. I don't think it's that big of a deal. I wish Greyhawk had the "problem" FR have - superfulous amounts of commerical merchandise!
#7 Argon May 23, 2004 23:56:05	I'm no FR fan but it seems like someone has gotten a little too sensitive about discussion of novels on the FR boards. I thought these boards where places too discuss or offer our personal opinions on any game-like manner. The Wizo over on the FR boards seems to be having a hard time as well. It's hard to be the messenger for the powers that be. I don't know whether this is something that particular Wizo is for or not? But the fact that a company doesn't want any of their customers commenting on one of their product lines is beyond my comprehension. I would think that any company would look at what their customers where saying and find ways too improve upon their features, products, or services to that end. I can understand removing a post that was biased, racist, or loaded with profanity. But really banning your customers from discussing anything negative about your products is really disturbing!
#8 princeofcincinnati May 24, 2004 0:02:50	Im confused. Are the posters being rude or is WOTC censuring them?
#9 boz_shulun May 24, 2004 0:45:54	Unfortunately, I got in on the very end of the whole thing so I am unsure. Something got some of the regulars fired up though. Several of the long timers of that board (and I am told… that some of them were authors of the novels themselves) jumped ship because of sour feelings. Most vowed never to return to the WOTC boards. I too am disturbed and a little disappointed in the whole thing.
#10 faraer May 24, 2004 13:43:59	Originally posted by mortellan Also, I see the FR board is unhappy with the Complete Warrior/Divine series for ripping off the FR's flavor. If they only knew... Plenty of 'them' know at least as well as you do. Please let's be free of this dreary, dreary partisanship.
#11 zombiegleemax May 24, 2004 14:13:45	Yes, let's be more like our statesmen.
#12 boz_shulun May 24, 2004 15:02:25	Originally posted by Faraer Plenty of 'them' know at least as well as you do. Please let's be free of this dreary, dreary partisanship. Why? Taking a stand for something that you believe in is much more commendable. I respect someone who will take a side, even if it is in opposition to my way of thinking. Bi-partisan, middle-of-the-road, political correctness… it’s passé and gutless.
#13 faraer May 25, 2004 10:06:08	Because it isn't a side, and the antipathy only exists in the imagination of the minority of pro-Greyhawk/anti-Realms partisans. It doesn't achieve anything for the World of Greyhawk, it discourages rather than encourages understanding, it makes Greyhawk fans (of whom I'm certainly one) look petty, paints Greyhawk authors in the same bad light, and it's a waste of effort and time. In this case, I don't see much scope for argument. It's fine for the Realms to have taken up elements of AD&D, because that's what all home campaigns were supposed to do (or in 1977 was the only legitimate use of the Monster Manual monsters in the World of Greyhawk that hadn't been published?). It's fine for core AD&D to use elements from the Realms, as part of the general exchange (and as happened from some of Ed Greenwood's earliest Dragon articles). It's bad for people's work to be reprinted without credit.
#14 boz_shulun May 25, 2004 11:12:03	Originally posted by Faraer Because it isn't a side, and the antipathy only exists in the imagination of the minority of pro-Greyhawk/anti-Realms partisans. It doesn't achieve anything for the World of Greyhawk, it discourages rather than encourages understanding, it makes Greyhawk fans (of whom I'm certainly one) look petty, paints Greyhawk authors in the same bad light, and it's a waste of effort and time. Antipathy will always exist when one group (usually the minority) feels slighted in their interests in favor of the interests of another group (usually a majority). If you think that FR fans do not complain about mistreatment (real or perceived) then you need to look more closely at the overall point of this thread and the subjects on the FR board that it refers to. To suggest that GH fans shouldn’t complain and that FR fans are not partisan is silly and holier-than-thou. In this case, I don't see much scope for argument. It's fine for the Realms to have taken up elements of AD&D, because that's what all home campaigns were supposed to do (or in 1977 was the only legitimate use of the Monster Manual monsters in the World of Greyhawk that hadn't been published?). I totally agree. Home campaigns should take what they like from any inspiration and sourcebook that suits them. *It's fine for core AD&D to use elements from the Realms, as part of the general exchange (and as happened from some of Ed Greenwood's earliest Dragon* articles). My point (and the point of others) exactly. So why are they (and when I say ‘they’, I am referring to the small group of outspoken FR fans on the other board who do not represent all the intelligent and knowledgeable ones) complaining so much? It's bad for people's work to be reprinted without credit.** Again I agree. But the ‘credit’ for the PrC s is a minor point made in that discussion.
#15 eric_anondson May 25, 2004 17:35:46	Originally posted by Boz Shulun If you think that FR fans do not complain about mistreatment (real or perceived) then you need to look more closely at the overall point of this thread and the subjects on the FR board that it refers to. To suggest that GH fans shouldn’t complain and that FR fans are not partisan is silly and holier-than-thou. I just reread his comments a few times. Not once does he even a hint at claiming FR fans do not complain. To project onto others something they never say is a recipe for flames. As this is a Greyhawk forum, I only took his words to be exactly what they were, a chiding of Greyhawk-fans against well known (rightly or wrongly) ugly partisanship. Originally posted by Boz Shulun My point (and the point of others) exactly. So why are they (and when I say ‘they’, I am referring to the small group of outspoken FR fans on the other board who do not represent all the intelligent and knowledgeable ones) complaining so much? I have not bothered to read the threads. Would someone care to sum up the points of complaint? Regards, Eric Anondson
#16 faraer May 25, 2004 18:12:11	I was gonna bow out to avoid any dead-end argument, but... Yes, Realms fan complain, sometimes rightfully, sometimes not, some are subject to pique, some are ignorant. If Wizards stopped publishing the Realms and gave all those slots to Greyhawk, some Realms fans would transfer their frustration and disappointment to the World of Greyhawk and its fans as if it (rather than the decision-makers) were to blame, and it would be just as stupid, irrational and counterproductive. I think we know that the powers that be really aren't interested in this board compared to the Realms boards, because at present Greyhawk makes much less money for the company and no one at Wizards is much interested or invested in the setting. By and large I think this board is used by people who've seen the big Greyhawk controversies flare up, and deliberately hold off being provocative, or who don't know them, so it hasn't drawn major moderator attention. Eric, there was just one thread where half a dozen people objected to a couple of Realms prestige classes being setting-stripped and published in the Complete Divine web enhancement as new content. Not a big thing. The big thing was the banning of discussion of novels (and of discussion of the banning of discussion of novels), which probably technically applies to this board as well.
#17 boz_shulun May 25, 2004 18:47:03	Originally posted by Eric Anondson I just reread his comments a few times. Not once does he even a hint at claiming FR fans do not complain. To project onto others something they never say is a recipe for flames. As this is a Greyhawk forum, I only took his words to be exactly what they were, a chiding of Greyhawk-fans against well known (rightly or wrongly) ugly partisanship. Thank you. After reading and rereading the posts I realized my error. My post should not have put words in Faraer’s mouth. For that I apologize. My beef wasn’t with complaining but the overall feeling of resentment (or as Faraer put it, antipathy). but… Originally posted by Faraer Because it isn't a side, and the antipathy only exists in the imagination of the minority of pro-Greyhawk/anti-Realms partisans. …says that the antipathy if only one-way. That the hard feelings are only in the minds of zealot GH fans. That is wrong. There are plenty of passionate FR ‘purists’ who are up in arms about the use of ideas from the realms being available for core use. A point, as a GH fan, I find ridiculous. The realms have used things that were inherently GH for years and it wasn’t a crime. Now the tables have turned and there are those who are crying foul. When I voiced that opinion on the FR board (and other venues), I was chastised for it.
#18 faraer May 25, 2004 18:53:10	Whatever the reasons for it, a sizeable contingent of Greyhawk fans 'hate' the Realms, and very few Realms fans have such strong negative feelings for Greyhawk (including few or none, I don't recall, of the half-dozen resentful people in that thread). The antipathy is largely, but not completely, one-sided. [Edit: I.e., hard feelings about a subsidiary issue and antipathy (settled aversion or dislike) aren't the same.]
#19 boz_shulun May 25, 2004 19:35:26	Edit: insert... 1 obsolete : opposition in feeling 2 : settled aversion or dislike : DISTASTE 3 : an object of aversion ... for 'hard feelings'.
#20 lincoln_hills May 25, 2004 20:40:19	I suppose the reason Forgotten Realms players usually don't "resent" Greyhawk players is pretty clear - they're busy enjoying THEIR setting. No doubt the more thoughtful among them are occasionally thankful to RP in a setting which receives the wholehearted support of its parent corporation. (Personally, I'd find it a nightmare to have to buy so many books all the time... then have to read 'em... just to keep up? St. Cuthbert defend me!) While the more... adversarial... Greyhawk fans seem to feel that Forgotten Realms has stolen "fan support" from Oerth. Isn't true, I fear: while it's true that Oerth and Toril have more in common than most of TSR's fictional worlds, the two settings have very different appeals. One might as well argue that Conan keeps stealing Aragorn's fan base. (As for 'novel threads' getting blocked - well, nothing new about threads getting blocked. It's an unfortunate but sometimes necessary thing on these boards...)
#21 mortellan May 25, 2004 21:30:51	(As for 'novel threads' getting blocked - well, nothing new about threads getting blocked. It's an unfortunate but sometimes necessary thing on these boards...) This one hasn't been shut down yet. I wonder what would happen if I mention how I really enjoyed the Avatar Trilogy, the Moonshae series and the Crystal Shard. After those I sort of fell behind, way behind. :P
#22 Argon May 26, 2004 0:50:35	Many of the WoTC Novels and even old TSR novels where not that good. Their are a few gems in the folds but for the most part better novels do exist. I don't know if it's the author forceing his story too be more game like or just ignoring certain aspects of the game world. But many of the novels published by Wotc and TSR where not of the best quality. I like David Gemmell, his stories are not too over powering with quirkiness that is often found in fantasy writing's. Instead each story is a well supported piece of work that allows you too follow along regardless of where you entered. The best game world novels ever where actually the Shadowrun series of novels. They make a fantasy high tech world work well. This is something I have run from in the past but this setting of novels brings joy to your eyes for having picked one up!
#23 boz_shulun May 26, 2004 1:48:08	I agree, the Steve Kenson Shadowrun novels are some of my favs. As for D&D/Fantasy, the Greyhawk module based novels were okay but could have been a lot better. Personally, I prefer the works of Glen Cook & Fritz Leiber (as well as Howard and Tolkien, of course). I wonder how much structure is forced on authors who write novels for D&D (FR in particular). I enjoy some of them, but many come across as labored and generic in theme. Not to mention the blatant plugging of upcoming products.